Segregation Is Coming

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I am an ESOL teacher so I am well aware of the different types of students we have in FCPS. The person was making the point that learning English as Spanish is not that hard a transition. I made the point that it is often the Spanish speaking students who make the slowest progress, usually either because they are coming to school with having very little academic education and/or because they are able to make many Spanish speaking friends so they are able to get by with little English. Also, a student in FCPS in 7th grade would not be asked to do that because they would be in self-contained ELL classes. ESOL students are very fortunate in FCPS - we have so many supports for them to help them succeed. No student is just thrown in an English class and asked to write a paragraph in English their first week of school.

Not an ESOL teacher, but former DOD teacher who taught a number of ESOL kids. I taught first grade. When I had 1-3 Spanish speaking kids, they learned to speak English quickly. iGrade 1). One year I had seven and it took much, much, longer because they hung together.

I imagine it is very difficult with the older kids. And, there doesn't seem to be a big incentive to learn English for many of the parents.

I don’t think it takes these parents any longer to learn English than other low income immigrants in the past. Now, if the current Spanish speaking immigrants were living in backwoods Montana, then they would have no other choice.

Didn’t NYC have newspapers in Yiddish, Russian, Italian for a long time?

US immigrants (they like to call themselves “ex-pats”) to Mexico expect service in English often. It takes time to learn a new language as an adult, and for the immigrants here, time is money.

I think the difference is that the former immigrants knew their kids must speak English. Not sure some of the present ones do--but, as a PP said, they work hard and time is money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I am an ESOL teacher so I am well aware of the different types of students we have in FCPS. The person was making the point that learning English as Spanish is not that hard a transition. I made the point that it is often the Spanish speaking students who make the slowest progress, usually either because they are coming to school with having very little academic education and/or because they are able to make many Spanish speaking friends so they are able to get by with little English. Also, a student in FCPS in 7th grade would not be asked to do that because they would be in self-contained ELL classes. ESOL students are very fortunate in FCPS - we have so many supports for them to help them succeed. No student is just thrown in an English class and asked to write a paragraph in English their first week of school.

Not an ESOL teacher, but former DOD teacher who taught a number of ESOL kids. I taught first grade. When I had 1-3 Spanish speaking kids, they learned to speak English quickly. iGrade 1). One year I had seven and it took much, much, longer because they hung together.

I imagine it is very difficult with the older kids. And, there doesn't seem to be a big incentive to learn English for many of the parents.

I don’t think it takes these parents any longer to learn English than other low income immigrants in the past. Now, if the current Spanish speaking immigrants were living in backwoods Montana, then they would have no other choice.

Didn’t NYC have newspapers in Yiddish, Russian, Italian for a long time?

US immigrants (they like to call themselves “ex-pats”) to Mexico expect service in English often. It takes time to learn a new language as an adult, and for the immigrants here, time is money.

I think the difference is that the former immigrants knew their kids must speak English. Not sure some of the present ones do--but, as a PP said, they work hard and time is money.

Yes, and there is so much more available in Spanish so it is easier to get by without learning much English. At Target, the signs are in both English in Spanish. You can watch TV in Spanish. There’s Google Translate. Drivers tests are in multiple languages. There are Bilingual schools. In the past, people had to learn English because you really couldn’t survive without it. Of course, there’s only so far you can get not knowing any English here, but it is possible to live and work only speaking Spanish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I am an ESOL teacher so I am well aware of the different types of students we have in FCPS. The person was making the point that learning English as Spanish is not that hard a transition. I made the point that it is often the Spanish speaking students who make the slowest progress, usually either because they are coming to school with having very little academic education and/or because they are able to make many Spanish speaking friends so they are able to get by with little English. Also, a student in FCPS in 7th grade would not be asked to do that because they would be in self-contained ELL classes. ESOL students are very fortunate in FCPS - we have so many supports for them to help them succeed. No student is just thrown in an English class and asked to write a paragraph in English their first week of school.

Not an ESOL teacher, but former DOD teacher who taught a number of ESOL kids. I taught first grade. When I had 1-3 Spanish speaking kids, they learned to speak English quickly. iGrade 1). One year I had seven and it took much, much, longer because they hung together.

I imagine it is very difficult with the older kids. And, there doesn't seem to be a big incentive to learn English for many of the parents.

I don’t think it takes these parents any longer to learn English than other low income immigrants in the past. Now, if the current Spanish speaking immigrants were living in backwoods Montana, then they would have no other choice.

Didn’t NYC have newspapers in Yiddish, Russian, Italian for a long time?

US immigrants (they like to call themselves “ex-pats”) to Mexico expect service in English often. It takes time to learn a new language as an adult, and for the immigrants here, time is money.

I think the difference is that the former immigrants knew their kids must speak English. Not sure some of the present ones do--but, as a PP said, they work hard and time is money.

I think sometimes there is also the hope to go back to their countries. They might see there time as temporary.
I forgot to add above, that many Latin American immigrants of indigenous origin also speak a native language, so English ends up being their third language. Their kids also hear Spanish and the native language at home.

[Anonymous]

It's time to bring back forced busing.

[Anonymous]

*their

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I am an ESOL teacher so I am well aware of the different types of students we have in FCPS. The person was making the point that learning English as Spanish is not that hard a transition. I made the point that it is often the Spanish speaking students who make the slowest progress, usually either because they are coming to school with having very little academic education and/or because they are able to make many Spanish speaking friends so they are able to get by with little English. Also, a student in FCPS in 7th grade would not be asked to do that because they would be in self-contained ELL classes. ESOL students are very fortunate in FCPS - we have so many supports for them to help them succeed. No student is just thrown in an English class and asked to write a paragraph in English their first week of school.

Not an ESOL teacher, but former DOD teacher who taught a number of ESOL kids. I taught first grade. When I had 1-3 Spanish speaking kids, they learned to speak English quickly. iGrade 1). One year I had seven and it took much, much, longer because they hung together.

I imagine it is very difficult with the older kids. And, there doesn't seem to be a big incentive to learn English for many of the parents.

I don’t think it takes these parents any longer to learn English than other low income immigrants in the past. Now, if the current Spanish speaking immigrants were living in backwoods Montana, then they would have no other choice.

Didn’t NYC have newspapers in Yiddish, Russian, Italian for a long time?

US immigrants (they like to call themselves “ex-pats”) to Mexico expect service in English often. It takes time to learn a new language as an adult, and for the immigrants here, time is money.

I think the difference is that the former immigrants knew their kids must speak English. Not sure some of the present ones do--but, as a PP said, they work hard and time is money.

I think sometimes there is also the hope to go back to their countries. They might see there time as temporary.
I forgot to add above, that many Latin American immigrants of indigenous origin also speak a native language, so English ends up being their third language. Their kids also hear Spanish and the native language at home.

*Their

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I am an ESOL teacher so I am well aware of the different types of students we have in FCPS. The person was making the point that learning English as Spanish is not that hard a transition. I made the point that it is often the Spanish speaking students who make the slowest progress, usually either because they are coming to school with having very little academic education and/or because they are able to make many Spanish speaking friends so they are able to get by with little English. Also, a student in FCPS in 7th grade would not be asked to do that because they would be in self-contained ELL classes. ESOL students are very fortunate in FCPS - we have so many supports for them to help them succeed. No student is just thrown in an English class and asked to write a paragraph in English their first week of school.

Not an ESOL teacher, but former DOD teacher who taught a number of ESOL kids. I taught first grade. When I had 1-3 Spanish speaking kids, they learned to speak English quickly. iGrade 1). One year I had seven and it took much, much, longer because they hung together.

I imagine it is very difficult with the older kids. And, there doesn't seem to be a big incentive to learn English for many of the parents.

I don’t think it takes these parents any longer to learn English than other low income immigrants in the past. Now, if the current Spanish speaking immigrants were living in backwoods Montana, then they would have no other choice.

Didn’t NYC have newspapers in Yiddish, Russian, Italian for a long time?

US immigrants (they like to call themselves “ex-pats”) to Mexico expect service in English often. It takes time to learn a new language as an adult, and for the immigrants here, time is money.

I think the difference is that the former immigrants knew their kids must speak English. Not sure some of the present ones do--but, as a PP said, they work hard and time is money.

I think sometimes there is also the hope to go back to their countries. They might see there time as temporary.
I forgot to add above, that many Latin American immigrants of indigenous origin also speak a native language, so English ends up being their third language. Their kids also hear Spanish and the native language at home.

Glad to hear im paying for their kid's education for a temporary stop through.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I am an ESOL teacher so I am well aware of the different types of students we have in FCPS. The person was making the point that learning English as Spanish is not that hard a transition. I made the point that it is often the Spanish speaking students who make the slowest progress, usually either because they are coming to school with having very little academic education and/or because they are able to make many Spanish speaking friends so they are able to get by with little English. Also, a student in FCPS in 7th grade would not be asked to do that because they would be in self-contained ELL classes. ESOL students are very fortunate in FCPS - we have so many supports for them to help them succeed. No student is just thrown in an English class and asked to write a paragraph in English their first week of school.

Not an ESOL teacher, but former DOD teacher who taught a number of ESOL kids. I taught first grade. When I had 1-3 Spanish speaking kids, they learned to speak English quickly. iGrade 1). One year I had seven and it took much, much, longer because they hung together.

I imagine it is very difficult with the older kids. And, there doesn't seem to be a big incentive to learn English for many of the parents.

I don’t think it takes these parents any longer to learn English than other low income immigrants in the past. Now, if the current Spanish speaking immigrants were living in backwoods Montana, then they would have no other choice.

Didn’t NYC have newspapers in Yiddish, Russian, Italian for a long time?

US immigrants (they like to call themselves “ex-pats”) to Mexico expect service in English often. It takes time to learn a new language as an adult, and for the immigrants here, time is money.

I think the difference is that the former immigrants knew their kids must speak English. Not sure some of the present ones do--but, as a PP said, they work hard and time is money.

I think sometimes there is also the hope to go back to their countries. They might see there time as temporary.
I forgot to add above, that many Latin American immigrants of indigenous origin also speak a native language, so English ends up being their third language. Their kids also hear Spanish and the native language at home.

Glad to hear im paying for their kid's education for a temporary stop through.

You also get food on the table, house/lawn work done thanks to their work. Their taxes pay for it as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I am an ESOL teacher so I am well aware of the different types of students we have in FCPS. The person was making the point that learning English as Spanish is not that hard a transition. I made the point that it is often the Spanish speaking students who make the slowest progress, usually either because they are coming to school with having very little academic education and/or because they are able to make many Spanish speaking friends so they are able to get by with little English. Also, a student in FCPS in 7th grade would not be asked to do that because they would be in self-contained ELL classes. ESOL students are very fortunate in FCPS - we have so many supports for them to help them succeed. No student is just thrown in an English class and asked to write a paragraph in English their first week of school.

Not an ESOL teacher, but former DOD teacher who taught a number of ESOL kids. I taught first grade. When I had 1-3 Spanish speaking kids, they learned to speak English quickly. iGrade 1). One year I had seven and it took much, much, longer because they hung together.

I imagine it is very difficult with the older kids. And, there doesn't seem to be a big incentive to learn English for many of the parents.

I don’t think it takes these parents any longer to learn English than other low income immigrants in the past. Now, if the current Spanish speaking immigrants were living in backwoods Montana, then they would have no other choice.

Didn’t NYC have newspapers in Yiddish, Russian, Italian for a long time?

US immigrants (they like to call themselves “ex-pats”) to Mexico expect service in English often. It takes time to learn a new language as an adult, and for the immigrants here, time is money.

I think the difference is that the former immigrants knew their kids must speak English. Not sure some of the present ones do--but, as a PP said, they work hard and time is money.

I think sometimes there is also the hope to go back to their countries. They might see there time as temporary.
I forgot to add above, that many Latin American immigrants of indigenous origin also speak a native language, so English ends up being their third language. Their kids also hear Spanish and the native language at home.

Glad to hear im paying for their kid's education for a temporary stop through.

You also get food on the table, house/lawn work done thanks to their work. Their taxes pay for it as well.

I do my own housework and yard work. And, I pay a LOT of taxes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Students should first be taught how to read and write in their native language. Once they learn the mechanics, they have less issues learning how to read and write in English. Now, this works best with European languages, of course.

Many Hispanic kids show up to school with little to no training in sound recognition in either Spanish or English. Imagine trying to learn how to read and write in a language you don’t even know.

Also, the previous examples here of people learning the local language in a year or two before the age of 10, is possible because they, most likely, were the only kids at the school who did not know the local language, and had no other option but to learn it to make friends. The percentage of Spanish speakers in schools like Herndon Elementary, is so high, there is no incentive for many of the new arrivals to learn English. The kids can easily make friends in Spanish.

These kids not only fall behind learning English, but they do not learn science or social studies content either. If they could be taught some of these subjects in Spanish, their self esteem might improve. I am not a fan of the fcps immersion model, as it does not emphasize teaching language arts. I mean, isn’t that the point too?

I would suggest two years of language arts in Spanish, and then transition to English, especially for k-2 grades.

I taught in language immersion schools for over ten years. Yes, kids are sponges, and they learned quickly, but their parents were professionals, who often already spoke the target language. The situation in fcps is different, especially for the native Spanish speakers.

Fewer. Maybe some English speakers should learn how to write properly in English.

I am the PP. I did not grow up in the US. Most of my schooling was done in another language. How many languages do you speak?

Three. Grammarly is a thing. Use it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Students should first be taught how to read and write in their native language. Once they learn the mechanics, they have less issues learning how to read and write in English. Now, this works best with European languages, of course.

Many Hispanic kids show up to school with little to no training in sound recognition in either Spanish or English. Imagine trying to learn how to read and write in a language you don’t even know.

Also, the previous examples here of people learning the local language in a year or two before the age of 10, is possible because they, most likely, were the only kids at the school who did not know the local language, and had no other option but to learn it to make friends. The percentage of Spanish speakers in schools like Herndon Elementary, is so high, there is no incentive for many of the new arrivals to learn English. The kids can easily make friends in Spanish.

These kids not only fall behind learning English, but they do not learn science or social studies content either. If they could be taught some of these subjects in Spanish, their self esteem might improve. I am not a fan of the fcps immersion model, as it does not emphasize teaching language arts. I mean, isn’t that the point too?

I would suggest two years of language arts in Spanish, and then transition to English, especially for k-2 grades.

I taught in language immersion schools for over ten years. Yes, kids are sponges, and they learned quickly, but their parents were professionals, who often already spoke the target language. The situation in fcps is different, especially for the native Spanish speakers.

Fewer. Maybe some English speakers should learn how to write properly in English.

I am the PP. I did not grow up in the US. Most of my schooling was done in another language. How many languages do you speak?

Three. Grammarly is a thing. Use it.

You must be so much fun at parties. Have a blessed day!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I am an ESOL teacher so I am well aware of the different types of students we have in FCPS. The person was making the point that learning English as Spanish is not that hard a transition. I made the point that it is often the Spanish speaking students who make the slowest progress, usually either because they are coming to school with having very little academic education and/or because they are able to make many Spanish speaking friends so they are able to get by with little English. Also, a student in FCPS in 7th grade would not be asked to do that because they would be in self-contained ELL classes. ESOL students are very fortunate in FCPS - we have so many supports for them to help them succeed. No student is just thrown in an English class and asked to write a paragraph in English their first week of school.

Not an ESOL teacher, but former DOD teacher who taught a number of ESOL kids. I taught first grade. When I had 1-3 Spanish speaking kids, they learned to speak English quickly. iGrade 1). One year I had seven and it took much, much, longer because they hung together.

I imagine it is very difficult with the older kids. And, there doesn't seem to be a big incentive to learn English for many of the parents.

I don’t think it takes these parents any longer to learn English than other low income immigrants in the past. Now, if the current Spanish speaking immigrants were living in backwoods Montana, then they would have no other choice.

Didn’t NYC have newspapers in Yiddish, Russian, Italian for a long time?

US immigrants (they like to call themselves “ex-pats”) to Mexico expect service in English often. It takes time to learn a new language as an adult, and for the immigrants here, time is money.

I think the difference is that the former immigrants knew their kids must speak English. Not sure some of the present ones do--but, as a PP said, they work hard and time is money.

I think sometimes there is also the hope to go back to their countries. They might see there time as temporary.
I forgot to add above, that many Latin American immigrants of indigenous origin also speak a native language, so English ends up being their third language. Their kids also hear Spanish and the native language at home.

Glad to hear im paying for their kid's education for a temporary stop through.

You also get food on the table, house/lawn work done thanks to their work. Their taxes pay for it as well.

What farms are they working at in or around Fairfax County? They haven't paid into the system when just showing up.They need extra services and aren't covering those costs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Students should first be taught how to read and write in their native language. Once they learn the mechanics, they have less issues learning how to read and write in English. Now, this works best with European languages, of course.

Many Hispanic kids show up to school with little to no training in sound recognition in either Spanish or English. Imagine trying to learn how to read and write in a language you don’t even know.

Also, the previous examples here of people learning the local language in a year or two before the age of 10, is possible because they, most likely, were the only kids at the school who did not know the local language, and had no other option but to learn it to make friends. The percentage of Spanish speakers in schools like Herndon Elementary, is so high, there is no incentive for many of the new arrivals to learn English. The kids can easily make friends in Spanish.

These kids not only fall behind learning English, but they do not learn science or social studies content either. If they could be taught some of these subjects in Spanish, their self esteem might improve. I am not a fan of the fcps immersion model, as it does not emphasize teaching language arts. I mean, isn’t that the point too?

I would suggest two years of language arts in Spanish, and then transition to English, especially for k-2 grades.

I taught in language immersion schools for over ten years. Yes, kids are sponges, and they learned quickly, but their parents were professionals, who often already spoke the target language. The situation in fcps is different, especially for the native Spanish speakers.

Spanish is also a European language.

It is not the native tongue of the Americas.

It is the European Conquistador language.

In fact, Spanish is one of 5 European Romance languages (derived from Latin) along with Italian, Portuguese, French, Italian and Romanian.

There is zero justificstion to consider Spanish speakers the only European Romance language speakers that cannot learn English proficiently after years of instruction in English.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I am an ESOL teacher so I am well aware of the different types of students we have in FCPS. The person was making the point that learning English as Spanish is not that hard a transition. I made the point that it is often the Spanish speaking students who make the slowest progress, usually either because they are coming to school with having very little academic education and/or because they are able to make many Spanish speaking friends so they are able to get by with little English. Also, a student in FCPS in 7th grade would not be asked to do that because they would be in self-contained ELL classes. ESOL students are very fortunate in FCPS - we have so many supports for them to help them succeed. No student is just thrown in an English class and asked to write a paragraph in English their first week of school.

Not an ESOL teacher, but former DOD teacher who taught a number of ESOL kids. I taught first grade. When I had 1-3 Spanish speaking kids, they learned to speak English quickly. iGrade 1). One year I had seven and it took much, much, longer because they hung together.

I imagine it is very difficult with the older kids. And, there doesn't seem to be a big incentive to learn English for many of the parents.

I don’t think it takes these parents any longer to learn English than other low income immigrants in the past. Now, if the current Spanish speaking immigrants were living in backwoods Montana, then they would have no other choice.

Didn’t NYC have newspapers in Yiddish, Russian, Italian for a long time?

US immigrants (they like to call themselves “ex-pats”) to Mexico expect service in English often. It takes time to learn a new language as an adult, and for the immigrants here, time is money.

I think the difference is that the former immigrants knew their kids must speak English. Not sure some of the present ones do--but, as a PP said, they work hard and time is money.

I think sometimes there is also the hope to go back to their countries. They might see there time as temporary.
I forgot to add above, that many Latin American immigrants of indigenous origin also speak a native language, so English ends up being their third language. Their kids also hear Spanish and the native language at home.

Glad to hear im paying for their kid's education for a temporary stop through.

You also get food on the table, house/lawn work done thanks to their work. Their taxes pay for it as well.

When you are paid in cash, you don't pay taxes.

And many people clean their own houses, cook their own food and mow their own lawns.

It is exploitative to advocate for a system that creates a permanent generational underclass by advocating for policies that discourages and disables students from achieving mastery and proficiency in English, just so a small class of wealthy people can have cheap lawn care and house cleaners while patting themselves on their own back for their benevolency, while shaking their heads that these same people just lack the skills to learn enough English to succeed and advance in school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not really fair to the ESOL and SPED students that they are tossed in a class most of the day where they often understand very little. If they are lucky they get an hour a day of pull out instruction and someone coming in off and on to help them. It's not enough and I can't imagine how lost many of them feel.

I feel this acutely. The over emphasis on mainstreaming everyone immediately is almost always to the detriment of kids who need extra help. I see classes with more than 10 students with IEP's and more than 5 students who are Wnhlish learners, with one part time aide who 90% of the time has to focus on student who has intensive behavioral needs and needs constant 1-1 attention. All of the other kids just get whatever the main classroom teacher can give, plus a short pull out group for EL's during 20-30 mins of language arts.

Would most IEP students and EL's be getting more attention and learning more in self-contained classes? Absolutely. No question.

I don't understand when the "least restrictive environment" slipped to ALWAYS being the mainstream classroom.

+1000