Segregation Is Coming

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Students should first be taught how to read and write in their native language. Once they learn the mechanics, they have less issues learning how to read and write in English. Now, this works best with European languages, of course.

Many Hispanic kids show up to school with little to no training in sound recognition in either Spanish or English. Imagine trying to learn how to read and write in a language you don’t even know.

Also, the previous examples here of people learning the local language in a year or two before the age of 10, is possible because they, most likely, were the only kids at the school who did not know the local language, and had no other option but to learn it to make friends. The percentage of Spanish speakers in schools like Herndon Elementary, is so high, there is no incentive for many of the new arrivals to learn English. The kids can easily make friends in Spanish.

These kids not only fall behind learning English, but they do not learn science or social studies content either. If they could be taught some of these subjects in Spanish, their self esteem might improve. I am not a fan of the fcps immersion model, as it does not emphasize teaching language arts. I mean, isn’t that the point too?

I would suggest two years of language arts in Spanish, and then transition to English, especially for k-2 grades.

I taught in language immersion schools for over ten years. Yes, kids are sponges, and they learned quickly, but their parents were professionals, who often already spoke the target language. The situation in fcps is different, especially for the native Spanish speakers.

My teen got fluent in a difficult asian language, including reading and writing the characters, in a year of full immersion.

English to the asian languages is difficult. The asian languages to English is also difficult, yet our asian immigrant kids manage to achieve fluency, then excellence, very quickly. The african immigrant kids achieve fluency then excellence very quickly too.

I taught mexican migrant kids in Texas years ago, and those kids also achieved English fluency fairly quickly through full immersion, with the rare exception being the kids who came as older teens.

The spanish language to English, or English language to Spanish, is not that difficult a transition, especially when we are talking about children living in a country where most people including the people at their schools speak English.

Making excuses and setting the bar so low for one ethnic group does not help those kids one bit and actually causes harm to them by limiting their future educational opportunities and income potential.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids who go to school in Spain or some other country that don't speak the local language must do 6 months of intensive language before they enroll in local schools - not expensive expat schools of course. There is nothing wrong with that.

I grew up in FL and that's what we had as well.

What's wild to me is that new immigrants who don't speak any English are paired with the top kid in each class who then helps their partner through the day. It's always kind, soft spoken girls, which makes me sad for them that they get extra jobs just by nature of being good. As a female, I don't like always putting the extra work always on little girls.

Where do you see this?

Both of my kids' classrooms. They get assigned as a helper.

[Anonymous]

What's wild to me is that new immigrants who don't speak any English are paired with the top kid in each class who then helps their partner through the day. It's always kind, soft spoken girls, which makes me sad for them that they get extra jobs just by nature of being good. As a female, I don't like always putting the extra work always on little girls.

I was a teacher. It is common practice to assign a "helper" to any new student--including native English speakers. And, yes, it is usually the nice kids. The "helper" was not permanent and I doubt that is the case here.

As for the new ESL kids (and I had those, too.) They also got helpers. Again, not permanent.

The "helpers" for any new student is not tasked with teaching the child, but with helping show the ropes. I especially encouraged them to play with the new child on the playground for a day or two.

And, no, it is not necessarily the top kids in the class that get tasked with that. It is usually the nicest and kindest kids whose parents would probably never complain about their child helping another one.

[Anonymous]

Back in the day, kids took about 1 year to assimilate. They typically dropped down a year and spent the year learning English and hoe school worked in the US. By the second year they were assimilated. It's not that hard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

What's wild to me is that new immigrants who don't speak any English are paired with the top kid in each class who then helps their partner through the day. It's always kind, soft spoken girls, which makes me sad for them that they get extra jobs just by nature of being good. As a female, I don't like always putting the extra work always on little girls.

I was a teacher. It is common practice to assign a "helper" to any new student--including native English speakers. And, yes, it is usually the nice kids. The "helper" was not permanent and I doubt that is the case here.

As for the new ESL kids (and I had those, too.) They also got helpers. Again, not permanent.

The "helpers" for any new student is not tasked with teaching the child, but with helping show the ropes. I especially encouraged them to play with the new child on the playground for a day or two.

And, no, it is not necessarily the top kids in the class that get tasked with that. It is usually the nicest and kindest kids whose parents would probably never complain about their child helping another one.

One of my boys who was definitely not a top student and also misbehaved a lot in class because he couldn't stop talking and socializing, would get picked as a helper for ne students and special needs inclusion kids..

He was really, really friendly and outgoing, and liked to include everyone even kids who didn'tquite fit in, so I assumed he was picked for that reason.

It certainly wasn't for being a compliant, well behaved, studious girl as he was the complete opposite of that. He didn't behave, and wasn't a good student, but he was friendly and outgoing.

[Anonymous]

One of my boys who was definitely not a top student and also misbehaved a lot in class because he couldn't stop talking and socializing, would get picked as a helper for ne students and special needs inclusion kids..

He was really, really friendly and outgoing, and liked to include everyone even kids who didn'tquite fit in, so I assumed he was picked for that reason.

It certainly wasn't for being a compliant, well behaved, studious girl as he was the complete opposite of that. He didn't behave, and wasn't a good student, but he was friendly and outgoing.

Sounds like a nice kid! I bet he benefited from this task as much as the "helped."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Students should first be taught how to read and write in their native language. Once they learn the mechanics, they have less issues learning how to read and write in English. Now, this works best with European languages, of course.

Many Hispanic kids show up to school with little to no training in sound recognition in either Spanish or English. Imagine trying to learn how to read and write in a language you don’t even know.

Also, the previous examples here of people learning the local language in a year or two before the age of 10, is possible because they, most likely, were the only kids at the school who did not know the local language, and had no other option but to learn it to make friends. The percentage of Spanish speakers in schools like Herndon Elementary, is so high, there is no incentive for many of the new arrivals to learn English. The kids can easily make friends in Spanish.

These kids not only fall behind learning English, but they do not learn science or social studies content either. If they could be taught some of these subjects in Spanish, their self esteem might improve. I am not a fan of the fcps immersion model, as it does not emphasize teaching language arts. I mean, isn’t that the point too?

I would suggest two years of language arts in Spanish, and then transition to English, especially for k-2 grades.

I taught in language immersion schools for over ten years. Yes, kids are sponges, and they learned quickly, but their parents were professionals, who often already spoke the target language. The situation in fcps is different, especially for the native Spanish speakers.

Fewer. Maybe some English speakers should learn how to write properly in English.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Students should first be taught how to read and write in their native language. Once they learn the mechanics, they have less issues learning how to read and write in English. Now, this works best with European languages, of course.

Many Hispanic kids show up to school with little to no training in sound recognition in either Spanish or English. Imagine trying to learn how to read and write in a language you don’t even know.

Also, the previous examples here of people learning the local language in a year or two before the age of 10, is possible because they, most likely, were the only kids at the school who did not know the local language, and had no other option but to learn it to make friends. The percentage of Spanish speakers in schools like Herndon Elementary, is so high, there is no incentive for many of the new arrivals to learn English. The kids can easily make friends in Spanish.

These kids not only fall behind learning English, but they do not learn science or social studies content either. If they could be taught some of these subjects in Spanish, their self esteem might improve. I am not a fan of the fcps immersion model, as it does not emphasize teaching language arts. I mean, isn’t that the point too?

I would suggest two years of language arts in Spanish, and then transition to English, especially for k-2 grades.

I taught in language immersion schools for over ten years. Yes, kids are sponges, and they learned quickly, but their parents were professionals, who often already spoke the target language. The situation in fcps is different, especially for the native Spanish speakers.

My teen got fluent in a difficult asian language, including reading and writing the characters, in a year of full immersion.

English to the asian languages is difficult. The asian languages to English is also difficult, yet our asian immigrant kids manage to achieve fluency, then excellence, very quickly. The african immigrant kids achieve fluency then excellence very quickly too.

I taught mexican migrant kids in Texas years ago, and those kids also achieved English fluency fairly quickly through full immersion, with the rare exception being the kids who came as older teens.

The spanish language to English, or English language to Spanish, is not that difficult a transition, especially when we are talking about children living in a country where most people including the people at their schools speak English.

Making excuses and setting the bar so low for one ethnic group does not help those kids one bit and actually causes harm to them by limiting their future educational opportunities and income potential.

I'm not setting the bar low, I am just saying what I see. I do teach teenagers so it is different with that group that teaching young kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Back in the day, kids took about 1 year to assimilate. They typically dropped down a year and spent the year learning English and hoe school worked in the US. By the second year they were assimilated. It's not that hard.

From experience, I know that it is very hard to start at a school as a non-English speaker. I was 8. I am now middle-aged, and I can tell you with certainty that it was one of the hardest years of my life. No kid wants to have to repeat a grade. To avoid this, you have to work harder than you've ever worked before. No, it is not easy. You don't know what you're talking about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Students should first be taught how to read and write in their native language. Once they learn the mechanics, they have less issues learning how to read and write in English. Now, this works best with European languages, of course.

Many Hispanic kids show up to school with little to no training in sound recognition in either Spanish or English. Imagine trying to learn how to read and write in a language you don’t even know.

Also, the previous examples here of people learning the local language in a year or two before the age of 10, is possible because they, most likely, were the only kids at the school who did not know the local language, and had no other option but to learn it to make friends. The percentage of Spanish speakers in schools like Herndon Elementary, is so high, there is no incentive for many of the new arrivals to learn English. The kids can easily make friends in Spanish.

These kids not only fall behind learning English, but they do not learn science or social studies content either. If they could be taught some of these subjects in Spanish, their self esteem might improve. I am not a fan of the fcps immersion model, as it does not emphasize teaching language arts. I mean, isn’t that the point too?

I would suggest two years of language arts in Spanish, and then transition to English, especially for k-2 grades.

I taught in language immersion schools for over ten years. Yes, kids are sponges, and they learned quickly, but their parents were professionals, who often already spoke the target language. The situation in fcps is different, especially for the native Spanish speakers.

My teen got fluent in a difficult asian language, including reading and writing the characters, in a year of full immersion.

English to the asian languages is difficult. The asian languages to English is also difficult, yet our asian immigrant kids manage to achieve fluency, then excellence, very quickly. The african immigrant kids achieve fluency then excellence very quickly too.

I taught mexican migrant kids in Texas years ago, and those kids also achieved English fluency fairly quickly through full immersion, with the rare exception being the kids who came as older teens.

The spanish language to English, or English language to Spanish, is not that difficult a transition, especially when we are talking about children living in a country where most people including the people at their schools speak English.

Making excuses and setting the bar so low for one ethnic group does not help those kids one bit and actually causes harm to them by limiting their future educational opportunities and income potential.

I'm not setting the bar low, I am just saying what I see. I do teach teenagers so it is different with that group that teaching young kids.

You're speaking from a privileged viewpoint. Kids that receive little to no parental involvement in academics are at a huge disadavantage. Think of middle schooler starting 7th grade at an FCPS middle school speaking no English. They're asked to write a paragraph in English describing the short story that they just "read." What are they to do?

[Anonymous]

I'm trying to catch up here. The OP said that segregation is coming. To what segregation was he/she referring? ESOL vs gen ed? AAP vs gen ed? Or racial segregation?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Students should first be taught how to read and write in their native language. Once they learn the mechanics, they have less issues learning how to read and write in English. Now, this works best with European languages, of course.

Many Hispanic kids show up to school with little to no training in sound recognition in either Spanish or English. Imagine trying to learn how to read and write in a language you don’t even know.

Also, the previous examples here of people learning the local language in a year or two before the age of 10, is possible because they, most likely, were the only kids at the school who did not know the local language, and had no other option but to learn it to make friends. The percentage of Spanish speakers in schools like Herndon Elementary, is so high, there is no incentive for many of the new arrivals to learn English. The kids can easily make friends in Spanish.

These kids not only fall behind learning English, but they do not learn science or social studies content either. If they could be taught some of these subjects in Spanish, their self esteem might improve. I am not a fan of the fcps immersion model, as it does not emphasize teaching language arts. I mean, isn’t that the point too?

I would suggest two years of language arts in Spanish, and then transition to English, especially for k-2 grades.

I taught in language immersion schools for over ten years. Yes, kids are sponges, and they learned quickly, but their parents were professionals, who often already spoke the target language. The situation in fcps is different, especially for the native Spanish speakers.

My teen got fluent in a difficult asian language, including reading and writing the characters, in a year of full immersion.

English to the asian languages is difficult. The asian languages to English is also difficult, yet our asian immigrant kids manage to achieve fluency, then excellence, very quickly. The african immigrant kids achieve fluency then excellence very quickly too.

I taught mexican migrant kids in Texas years ago, and those kids also achieved English fluency fairly quickly through full immersion, with the rare exception being the kids who came as older teens.

The spanish language to English, or English language to Spanish, is not that difficult a transition, especially when we are talking about children living in a country where most people including the people at their schools speak English.

Making excuses and setting the bar so low for one ethnic group does not help those kids one bit and actually causes harm to them by limiting their future educational opportunities and income potential.

I'm not setting the bar low, I am just saying what I see. I do teach teenagers so it is different with that group that teaching young kids.

You're speaking from a privileged viewpoint. Kids that receive little to no parental involvement in academics are at a huge disadavantage. Think of middle schooler starting 7th grade at an FCPS middle school speaking no English. They're asked to write a paragraph in English describing the short story that they just "read." What are they to do?

I am an ESOL teacher so I am well aware of the different types of students we have in FCPS. The person was making the point that learning English as Spanish is not that hard a transition. I made the point that it is often the Spanish speaking students who make the slowest progress, usually either because they are coming to school with having very little academic education and/or because they are able to make many Spanish speaking friends so they are able to get by with little English. Also, a student in FCPS in 7th grade would not be asked to do that because they would be in self-contained ELL classes. ESOL students are very fortunate in FCPS - we have so many supports for them to help them succeed. No student is just thrown in an English class and asked to write a paragraph in English their first week of school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Students should first be taught how to read and write in their native language. Once they learn the mechanics, they have less issues learning how to read and write in English. Now, this works best with European languages, of course.

Many Hispanic kids show up to school with little to no training in sound recognition in either Spanish or English. Imagine trying to learn how to read and write in a language you don’t even know.

Also, the previous examples here of people learning the local language in a year or two before the age of 10, is possible because they, most likely, were the only kids at the school who did not know the local language, and had no other option but to learn it to make friends. The percentage of Spanish speakers in schools like Herndon Elementary, is so high, there is no incentive for many of the new arrivals to learn English. The kids can easily make friends in Spanish.

These kids not only fall behind learning English, but they do not learn science or social studies content either. If they could be taught some of these subjects in Spanish, their self esteem might improve. I am not a fan of the fcps immersion model, as it does not emphasize teaching language arts. I mean, isn’t that the point too?

I would suggest two years of language arts in Spanish, and then transition to English, especially for k-2 grades.

I taught in language immersion schools for over ten years. Yes, kids are sponges, and they learned quickly, but their parents were professionals, who often already spoke the target language. The situation in fcps is different, especially for the native Spanish speakers.

Fewer. Maybe some English speakers should learn how to write properly in English.

I am the PP. I did not grow up in the US. Most of my schooling was done in another language. How many languages do you speak?

[Anonymous]

I am an ESOL teacher so I am well aware of the different types of students we have in FCPS. The person was making the point that learning English as Spanish is not that hard a transition. I made the point that it is often the Spanish speaking students who make the slowest progress, usually either because they are coming to school with having very little academic education and/or because they are able to make many Spanish speaking friends so they are able to get by with little English. Also, a student in FCPS in 7th grade would not be asked to do that because they would be in self-contained ELL classes. ESOL students are very fortunate in FCPS - we have so many supports for them to help them succeed. No student is just thrown in an English class and asked to write a paragraph in English their first week of school.

Not an ESOL teacher, but former DOD teacher who taught a number of ESOL kids. I taught first grade. When I had 1-3 Spanish speaking kids, they learned to speak English quickly. iGrade 1). One year I had seven and it took much, much, longer because they hung together.

I imagine it is very difficult with the older kids. And, there doesn't seem to be a big incentive to learn English for many of the parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I am an ESOL teacher so I am well aware of the different types of students we have in FCPS. The person was making the point that learning English as Spanish is not that hard a transition. I made the point that it is often the Spanish speaking students who make the slowest progress, usually either because they are coming to school with having very little academic education and/or because they are able to make many Spanish speaking friends so they are able to get by with little English. Also, a student in FCPS in 7th grade would not be asked to do that because they would be in self-contained ELL classes. ESOL students are very fortunate in FCPS - we have so many supports for them to help them succeed. No student is just thrown in an English class and asked to write a paragraph in English their first week of school.

Not an ESOL teacher, but former DOD teacher who taught a number of ESOL kids. I taught first grade. When I had 1-3 Spanish speaking kids, they learned to speak English quickly. iGrade 1). One year I had seven and it took much, much, longer because they hung together.

I imagine it is very difficult with the older kids. And, there doesn't seem to be a big incentive to learn English for many of the parents.

I don’t think it takes these parents any longer to learn English than other low income immigrants in the past. Now, if the current Spanish speaking immigrants were living in backwoods Montana, then they would have no other choice.

Didn’t NYC have newspapers in Yiddish, Russian, Italian for a long time?

US immigrants (they like to call themselves “ex-pats”) to Mexico expect service in English often. It takes time to learn a new language as an adult, and for the immigrants here, time is money.