NYT article on men struggling with their place in society

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/01/16/opinion/men-trump-voters-focus-group.html?unlocked_article_code=1.pk4.M2Hr.Thy5lM84dXHH&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

I just read this and I am not sure there is an eye roll emoji that can accurately reflect how ridiculous this article is. A focus group of 12 men who voted for Trump. I admit I am a 40-something woman, with sisters and daughters so I probably have less opportunity to see this, but I struggle to believe that men are feeling like they don’t have a place in society. They OWN society. What is the deal with this whining? Even the comments about how they feel like chivalry is gone because women give them a dirty look if they hold a door. It is BASIC courtesy. And since when are men worried about getting a dirty look?

Can anyone explain this to me?

They used to own society. Now women own something like 2% and they are seething about it. It's no surprise coming from trumpers though lol. White men are the biggest victims of the 21st century

+100
The thread on gay men proves this. If you're used to being handed everything in life (straight men) and suddenly you have to work for things, you get mad. If you haven't had everything handed to you in life, you're benefiting now that societal values have shifted.

To be fair, pretty much everything I've read over the last few years paints white men as the root of all evil. Blatant racism against white people is 100% tolerated almost everywhere. I'm an Asian woman so I don't feel that bad, but I truly think that the intense vitriol against white men for even existing gave Trump the election.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want to speak specifically to the door holding thing:

20 years ago I was an intern in the US Senate and gave constituent tours. In between making up facts about the capitol building, I had to usher people through doors that required a badge swipe to access. Standard procedure was: I swipe my badge, open door, hold it as they all walk through, I close door and secure it.

This would *break* some of the men on my tours. Especially older men, but young ones too. They couldn't handle having a 20 yr old woman hold a door open for them. Some of them would try to forcibly take the door from me. Most would just stand there, waiting for me to go through the door before them. I would explain i had to go through last. They would persist, say things like "I wasn't raised that way."

It was a small inconvenience but it was also deranged and really stuck with me. Perhaps they just struggled with a rule that had always been drilled into them (ladies first). Or perhaps the role reversal felt like a loss of status and control.

But that's what I thought about when I read the thing about these men feeling like women didn't want them to hold open doors for them.

Only crazy progressive women get upset about men holding the doors for them.

It was quite literally her job to hold the door, close it, and lock it after everybody.

Are you insane?

I'm not responding to her situation directly. I'm just saying, any woman who gets upset about a man holding the door for her is weird.

When was the last time that actually happy you? How many times in your whole life has that happened?

Are you cool if an 90 yo woman held the door for you?

? the ^PP staid they get upset if a man holds the door for them. I stated that this was weird, and would they be upset if a woman held the door for them. Why are you bringing in a 90 yr old woman into this conversation.

If a 90 yr old man tried to hold the door for me, I would find that heartwarming that an old man still wanted to be chivalrous. But, I would make sure that the door didn't hit him because he might be feeble. But, I would still find it a kind gesture.

I was at the post office one day, and there were these two old men. I said I'd get the door for them, and I think they got offended. That's weird, too. Like their egos were hurt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/01/16/opinion/men-trump-voters-focus-group.html?unlocked_article_code=1.pk4.M2Hr.Thy5lM84dXHH&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

I just read this and I am not sure there is an eye roll emoji that can accurately reflect how ridiculous this article is. A focus group of 12 men who voted for Trump. I admit I am a 40-something woman, with sisters and daughters so I probably have less opportunity to see this, but I struggle to believe that men are feeling like they don’t have a place in society. They OWN society. What is the deal with this whining? Even the comments about how they feel like chivalry is gone because women give them a dirty look if they hold a door. It is BASIC courtesy. And since when are men worried about getting a dirty look?

Can anyone explain this to me?

They used to own society. Now women own something like 2% and they are seething about it. It's no surprise coming from trumpers though lol. White men are the biggest victims of the 21st century

+100
The thread on gay men proves this. If you're used to being handed everything in life (straight men) and suddenly you have to work for things, you get mad. If you haven't had everything handed to you in life, you're benefiting now that societal values have shifted.

To be fair, pretty much everything I've read over the last few years paints white men as the root of all evil. Blatant racism against white people is 100% tolerated almost everywhere. I'm an Asian woman so I don't feel that bad, but I truly think that the intense vitriol against white men for even existing gave Trump the election.

I'm a Asian woman married to a white man, and he agrees that historically, white rulers did do a lot of damage and were kind of evil.

They also historically did a lot of evil things to minorities in the US, too.

They held all the power, so they get all the blame.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want to speak specifically to the door holding thing:

20 years ago I was an intern in the US Senate and gave constituent tours. In between making up facts about the capitol building, I had to usher people through doors that required a badge swipe to access. Standard procedure was: I swipe my badge, open door, hold it as they all walk through, I close door and secure it.

This would *break* some of the men on my tours. Especially older men, but young ones too. They couldn't handle having a 20 yr old woman hold a door open for them. Some of them would try to forcibly take the door from me. Most would just stand there, waiting for me to go through the door before them. I would explain i had to go through last. They would persist, say things like "I wasn't raised that way."

It was a small inconvenience but it was also deranged and really stuck with me. Perhaps they just struggled with a rule that had always been drilled into them (ladies first). Or perhaps the role reversal felt like a loss of status and control.

But that's what I thought about when I read the thing about these men feeling like women didn't want them to hold open doors for them.

Only crazy progressive women get upset about men holding the doors for them.

It was quite literally her job to hold the door, close it, and lock it after everybody.

Are you insane?

I'm not responding to her situation directly. I'm just saying, any woman who gets upset about a man holding the door for her is weird.

When was the last time that actually happy you? How many times in your whole life has that happened?

Are you cool if an 90 yo woman held the door for you?

? the ^PP staid they get upset if a man holds the door for them. I stated that this was weird, and would they be upset if a woman held the door for them. Why are you bringing in a 90 yr old woman into this conversation.

If a 90 yr old man tried to hold the door for me, I would find that heartwarming that an old man still wanted to be chivalrous. But, I would make sure that the door didn't hit him because he might be feeble. But, I would still find it a kind gesture.

I was at the post office one day, and there were these two old men. I said I'd get the door for them, and I think they got offended. That's weird, too. Like their egos were hurt.

No one likes to be reminded that they are old.

[Anonymous]

What bothers me is that this was actually a real opportunity to discuss what men struggle with. We could discuss how boys in schools need more movement, that there needs to be a better pipeline to jobs like teaching, nursing, the arts, etc. There needs to be a discussion that eventually we need a larger population of dads staying home with their children in addition of moms. We need to discuss how to be what was historically considered "masculine" without being a mouth breather heathen. There were so many things they could have talked about.

But they talked about where you get your news, and do you have women friends, and where do your women friends get their news.

There was a tiny bit at the end where they bemoan women not being interested in them because they are not tall and rich, which is odd, isn't Republican philosophy "work harder if your not getting ahead" (a head - pun intended).

One guy talked about his generation does not know how to make friend... that is the content that would have been of value.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/01/16/opinion/men-trump-voters-focus-group.html?unlocked_article_code=1.pk4.M2Hr.Thy5lM84dXHH&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

I just read this and I am not sure there is an eye roll emoji that can accurately reflect how ridiculous this article is. A focus group of 12 men who voted for Trump. I admit I am a 40-something woman, with sisters and daughters so I probably have less opportunity to see this, but I struggle to believe that men are feeling like they don’t have a place in society. They OWN society. What is the deal with this whining? Even the comments about how they feel like chivalry is gone because women give them a dirty look if they hold a door. It is BASIC courtesy. And since when are men worried about getting a dirty look?

Can anyone explain this to me?

They used to own society. Now women own something like 2% and they are seething about it. It's no surprise coming from trumpers though lol. White men are the biggest victims of the 21st century

+100
The thread on gay men proves this. If you're used to being handed everything in life (straight men) and suddenly you have to work for things, you get mad. If you haven't had everything handed to you in life, you're benefiting now that societal values have shifted.

To be fair, pretty much everything I've read over the last few years paints white men as the root of all evil. Blatant racism against white people is 100% tolerated almost everywhere. I'm an Asian woman so I don't feel that bad, but I truly think that the intense vitriol against white men for even existing gave Trump the election.

I'm a Asian woman married to a white man, and he agrees that historically, white rulers did do a lot of damage and were kind of evil.

They also historically did a lot of evil things to minorities in the US, too.

They held all the power, so they get all the blame.

They also did a lot of good but we aren't good at nuance so we ignore all of that right now. Doesn't fit the narrative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe they suddenly are experiencing a lack of sea parting for straight men in society and are having breakdowns and being crybabies. Mad because society has started to value competence and excellence over gender/race/physical appearance/stereotypes of what kind of people should be in what roles in society.

Agree. There is an idiom for this: when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

An example is a study done in business meetings. When women spoke 25% of the time, men said that men and women spoke equally as often. When women spoke just 30% of the time, men said that women dominated the conversation. It objectively wasn’t true, but women only had to speak a little more for men to think they were dominating the conversation.

Men (esp white men of a certain age) were raised believing that they would be at the top of the food chain. And that’s still mostly true. But they have to share some of the spotlight now, and boy, they don’t like it.

I certainly think we have work to do regarding equality, but in my profession I have noticed that in the past 5-8 years literally ZERO white people have been given residencies, grants, fellowships or stipends in the DC area. Well, I think maybe there was one white woman but she was gay. So, as a white person, I have been going after every single thing and have been shut out. I'm not saying anything of course because the whole world would call me a Karen, but I guess I'm lucky my spouse makes a decent amount of money because I have totally stagnated despite being pretty damn talented and incredibly hard working.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want to speak specifically to the door holding thing:

20 years ago I was an intern in the US Senate and gave constituent tours. In between making up facts about the capitol building, I had to usher people through doors that required a badge swipe to access. Standard procedure was: I swipe my badge, open door, hold it as they all walk through, I close door and secure it.

This would *break* some of the men on my tours. Especially older men, but young ones too. They couldn't handle having a 20 yr old woman hold a door open for them. Some of them would try to forcibly take the door from me. Most would just stand there, waiting for me to go through the door before them. I would explain i had to go through last. They would persist, say things like "I wasn't raised that way."

It was a small inconvenience but it was also deranged and really stuck with me. Perhaps they just struggled with a rule that had always been drilled into them (ladies first). Or perhaps the role reversal felt like a loss of status and control.

But that's what I thought about when I read the thing about these men feeling like women didn't want them to hold open doors for them.

Only crazy progressive women get upset about men holding the doors for them.

It was quite literally her job to hold the door, close it, and lock it after everybody.

Are you insane?

I'm not responding to her situation directly. I'm just saying, any woman who gets upset about a man holding the door for her is weird.

When was the last time that actually happy you? How many times in your whole life has that happened?

Are you cool if an 90 yo woman held the door for you?

? the ^PP staid they get upset if a man holds the door for them. I stated that this was weird, and would they be upset if a woman held the door for them. Why are you bringing in a 90 yr old woman into this conversation.

If a 90 yr old man tried to hold the door for me, I would find that heartwarming that an old man still wanted to be chivalrous. But, I would make sure that the door didn't hit him because he might be feeble. But, I would still find it a kind gesture.

I was at the post office one day, and there were these two old men. I said I'd get the door for them, and I think they got offended. That's weird, too. Like their egos were hurt.

They brought up a scenario that never, ever, ever happens. I asked when was the last time it happened.... the answer... 1988, maybe and only once.

Come on stop acting like that is a thing.

He would be upset if he wasn't allowed to hold a door for a women and she protested, yet, he would protest if a 90 yo women held the door for him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What bothers me is that this was actually a real opportunity to discuss what men struggle with. We could discuss how boys in schools need more movement, that there needs to be a better pipeline to jobs like teaching, nursing, the arts, etc. There needs to be a discussion that eventually we need a larger population of dads staying home with their children in addition of moms. We need to discuss how to be what was historically considered "masculine" without being a mouth breather heathen. There were so many things they could have talked about.

But they talked about where you get your news, and do you have women friends, and where do your women friends get their news.

There was a tiny bit at the end where they bemoan women not being interested in them because they are not tall and rich, which is odd, isn't Republican philosophy "work harder if your not getting ahead" (a head - pun intended).

One guy talked about his generation does not know how to make friend... that is the content that would have been of value.

DP. We are getting to the end of gentle parenting. Maybe we are ready to get to the end of eradicating masculinity, too. As a culture, we have tried to dismantle masculinity and femininity. And as a result, a lot of people are confused and unhappy.

We don't need to cater to children more, we need to expect and require more from them. We don't need to cater to men or women, we need to expect more from them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/01/16/opinion/men-trump-voters-focus-group.html?unlocked_article_code=1.pk4.M2Hr.Thy5lM84dXHH&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

I just read this and I am not sure there is an eye roll emoji that can accurately reflect how ridiculous this article is. A focus group of 12 men who voted for Trump. I admit I am a 40-something woman, with sisters and daughters so I probably have less opportunity to see this, but I struggle to believe that men are feeling like they don’t have a place in society. They OWN society. What is the deal with this whining? Even the comments about how they feel like chivalry is gone because women give them a dirty look if they hold a door. It is BASIC courtesy. And since when are men worried about getting a dirty look?

Can anyone explain this to me?

They used to own society. Now women own something like 2% and they are seething about it. It's no surprise coming from trumpers though lol. White men are the biggest victims of the 21st century

+100
The thread on gay men proves this. If you're used to being handed everything in life (straight men) and suddenly you have to work for things, you get mad. If you haven't had everything handed to you in life, you're benefiting now that societal values have shifted.

To be fair, pretty much everything I've read over the last few years paints white men as the root of all evil. Blatant racism against white people is 100% tolerated almost everywhere. I'm an Asian woman so I don't feel that bad, but I truly think that the intense vitriol against white men for even existing gave Trump the election.

I'm a Asian woman married to a white man, and he agrees that historically, white rulers did do a lot of damage and were kind of evil.

They also historically did a lot of evil things to minorities in the US, too.

They held all the power, so they get all the blame.

They also did a lot of good but we aren't good at nuance so we ignore all of that right now. Doesn't fit the narrative.

We've spent all of history lauding the accomplishments of white men.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe they suddenly are experiencing a lack of sea parting for straight men in society and are having breakdowns and being crybabies. Mad because society has started to value competence and excellence over gender/race/physical appearance/stereotypes of what kind of people should be in what roles in society.

Agree. There is an idiom for this: when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

An example is a study done in business meetings. When women spoke 25% of the time, men said that men and women spoke equally as often. When women spoke just 30% of the time, men said that women dominated the conversation. It objectively wasn’t true, but women only had to speak a little more for men to think they were dominating the conversation.

Men (esp white men of a certain age) were raised believing that they would be at the top of the food chain. And that’s still mostly true. But they have to share some of the spotlight now, and boy, they don’t like it.

I certainly think we have work to do regarding equality, but in my profession I have noticed that in the past 5-8 years literally ZERO white people have been given residencies, grants, fellowships or stipends in the DC area. Well, I think maybe there was one white woman but she was gay. So, as a white person, I have been going after every single thing and have been shut out. I'm not saying anything of course because the whole world would call me a Karen, but I guess I'm lucky my spouse makes a decent amount of money because I have totally stagnated despite being pretty damn talented and incredibly hard working.

You are not the only one to notice this, but my friends and I don't know what we can do about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/01/16/opinion/men-trump-voters-focus-group.html?unlocked_article_code=1.pk4.M2Hr.Thy5lM84dXHH&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

I just read this and I am not sure there is an eye roll emoji that can accurately reflect how ridiculous this article is. A focus group of 12 men who voted for Trump. I admit I am a 40-something woman, with sisters and daughters so I probably have less opportunity to see this, but I struggle to believe that men are feeling like they don’t have a place in society. They OWN society. What is the deal with this whining? Even the comments about how they feel like chivalry is gone because women give them a dirty look if they hold a door. It is BASIC courtesy. And since when are men worried about getting a dirty look?

Can anyone explain this to me?

They used to own society. Now women own something like 2% and they are seething about it. It's no surprise coming from trumpers though lol. White men are the biggest victims of the 21st century

+100
The thread on gay men proves this. If you're used to being handed everything in life (straight men) and suddenly you have to work for things, you get mad. If you haven't had everything handed to you in life, you're benefiting now that societal values have shifted.

To be fair, pretty much everything I've read over the last few years paints white men as the root of all evil. Blatant racism against white people is 100% tolerated almost everywhere. I'm an Asian woman so I don't feel that bad, but I truly think that the intense vitriol against white men for even existing gave Trump the election.

I'm a Asian woman married to a white man, and he agrees that historically, white rulers did do a lot of damage and were kind of evil.

They also historically did a lot of evil things to minorities in the US, too.

They held all the power, so they get all the blame.

They also did a lot of good but we aren't good at nuance so we ignore all of that right now. Doesn't fit the narrative.

We've spent all of history lauding the accomplishments of white men.

Okay. But people today are not all of history.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe they suddenly are experiencing a lack of sea parting for straight men in society and are having breakdowns and being crybabies. Mad because society has started to value competence and excellence over gender/race/physical appearance/stereotypes of what kind of people should be in what roles in society.

Agree. There is an idiom for this: when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

An example is a study done in business meetings. When women spoke 25% of the time, men said that men and women spoke equally as often. When women spoke just 30% of the time, men said that women dominated the conversation. It objectively wasn’t true, but women only had to speak a little more for men to think they were dominating the conversation.

Men (esp white men of a certain age) were raised believing that they would be at the top of the food chain. And that’s still mostly true. But they have to share some of the spotlight now, and boy, they don’t like it.

I certainly think we have work to do regarding equality, but in my profession I have noticed that in the past 5-8 years literally ZERO white people have been given residencies, grants, fellowships or stipends in the DC area. Well, I think maybe there was one white woman but she was gay. So, as a white person, I have been going after every single thing and have been shut out. I'm not saying anything of course because the whole world would call me a Karen, but I guess I'm lucky my spouse makes a decent amount of money because I have totally stagnated despite being pretty damn talented and incredibly hard working.

Every group tries to help their own out. White men were getting their golfing buddies and frat bros in for years. So we start getting people of color and women into positions of power, they then start helping out their fellow women. That was the original point of DEI, to break up the boys club. For it to be a true meritocracy, everyone would have to stop helping out their friends, family, and people from their racial groups and that isn’t going to happen in the near future.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe they suddenly are experiencing a lack of sea parting for straight men in society and are having breakdowns and being crybabies. Mad because society has started to value competence and excellence over gender/race/physical appearance/stereotypes of what kind of people should be in what roles in society.

Agree. There is an idiom for this: when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

An example is a study done in business meetings. When women spoke 25% of the time, men said that men and women spoke equally as often. When women spoke just 30% of the time, men said that women dominated the conversation. It objectively wasn’t true, but women only had to speak a little more for men to think they were dominating the conversation.

Men (esp white men of a certain age) were raised believing that they would be at the top of the food chain. And that’s still mostly true. But they have to share some of the spotlight now, and boy, they don’t like it.

I certainly think we have work to do regarding equality, but in my profession I have noticed that in the past 5-8 years literally ZERO white people have been given residencies, grants, fellowships or stipends in the DC area. Well, I think maybe there was one white woman but she was gay. So, as a white person, I have been going after every single thing and have been shut out. I'm not saying anything of course because the whole world would call me a Karen, but I guess I'm lucky my spouse makes a decent amount of money because I have totally stagnated despite being pretty damn talented and incredibly hard working.

Every group tries to help their own out. White men were getting their golfing buddies and frat bros in for years. So we start getting people of color and women into positions of power, they then start helping out their fellow women. That was the original point of DEI, to break up the boys club. For it to be a true meritocracy, everyone would have to stop helping out their friends, family, and people from their racial groups and that isn’t going to happen in the near future.

No, that's not it. White men are hiring, but they are not hiring white people. You have convinced them that everyone-but-white people deserve their chance. So that's who they are hiring.

It's not a meritocracy. It's something else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want to speak specifically to the door holding thing:

20 years ago I was an intern in the US Senate and gave constituent tours. In between making up facts about the capitol building, I had to usher people through doors that required a badge swipe to access. Standard procedure was: I swipe my badge, open door, hold it as they all walk through, I close door and secure it.

This would *break* some of the men on my tours. Especially older men, but young ones too. They couldn't handle having a 20 yr old woman hold a door open for them. Some of them would try to forcibly take the door from me. Most would just stand there, waiting for me to go through the door before them. I would explain i had to go through last. They would persist, say things like "I wasn't raised that way."

It was a small inconvenience but it was also deranged and really stuck with me. Perhaps they just struggled with a rule that had always been drilled into them (ladies first). Or perhaps the role reversal felt like a loss of status and control.

But that's what I thought about when I read the thing about these men feeling like women didn't want them to hold open doors for them.

Only crazy progressive women get upset about men holding the doors for them.

I'm a progressive woman, and I don't mind. But I live in an area where everyone holds the door for everyone, regardless of what is in their pants. Common courtesy.