NYT article on men struggling with their place in society

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want to speak specifically to the door holding thing:

20 years ago I was an intern in the US Senate and gave constituent tours. In between making up facts about the capitol building, I had to usher people through doors that required a badge swipe to access. Standard procedure was: I swipe my badge, open door, hold it as they all walk through, I close door and secure it.

This would *break* some of the men on my tours. Especially older men, but young ones too. They couldn't handle having a 20 yr old woman hold a door open for them. Some of them would try to forcibly take the door from me. Most would just stand there, waiting for me to go through the door before them. I would explain i had to go through last. They would persist, say things like "I wasn't raised that way."

It was a small inconvenience but it was also deranged and really stuck with me. Perhaps they just struggled with a rule that had always been drilled into them (ladies first). Or perhaps the role reversal felt like a loss of status and control.

But that's what I thought about when I read the thing about these men feeling like women didn't want them to hold open doors for them.

Only crazy progressive women get upset about men holding the doors for them.

I'm a progressive woman, and I don't mind. But I live in an area where everyone holds the door for everyone, regardless of what is in their pants. Common courtesy.

So not here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The other thread on this has been eye-opening.

I'm beginning to see how Trump won. He's a voice for the marginalized and straight white dudes now see themselves that way due to overzealous DEI practices.

I find some DEI practices a bit too restrictive. We had a female employee give notice and to maintain a "good ratio" on our team, my supervisor said the new hire had to be a woman. So boobs > qualifications, cool.

Mock men, and particularly cisgender white males, for believing the premise of the NYT article if you want.

But then consider the well-established facts which might lead these men to conclude they are being marginalized:

For example, read this Bloomberg article:

“The year after Black Lives Matter protests, the S&P 100 added more than 300,000 jobs — 94% went to people of color.”

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2023-black-lives-matter-equal-opportunity-corporate-diversity/


Think about that: 94%.

You cannot deny the facts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe they suddenly are experiencing a lack of sea parting for straight men in society and are having breakdowns and being crybabies. Mad because society has started to value competence and excellence over gender/race/physical appearance/stereotypes of what kind of people should be in what roles in society.

Agree. There is an idiom for this: when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

An example is a study done in business meetings. When women spoke 25% of the time, men said that men and women spoke equally as often. When women spoke just 30% of the time, men said that women dominated the conversation. It objectively wasn’t true, but women only had to speak a little more for men to think they were dominating the conversation.

Men (esp white men of a certain age) were raised believing that they would be at the top of the food chain. And that’s still mostly true. But they have to share some of the spotlight now, and boy, they don’t like it.

I certainly think we have work to do regarding equality, but in my profession I have noticed that in the past 5-8 years literally ZERO white people have been given residencies, grants, fellowships or stipends in the DC area. Well, I think maybe there was one white woman but she was gay. So, as a white person, I have been going after every single thing and have been shut out. I'm not saying anything of course because the whole world would call me a Karen, but I guess I'm lucky my spouse makes a decent amount of money because I have totally stagnated despite being pretty damn talented and incredibly hard working.

Every group tries to help their own out. White men were getting their golfing buddies and frat bros in for years. So we start getting people of color and women into positions of power, they then start helping out their fellow women. That was the original point of DEI, to break up the boys club. For it to be a true meritocracy, everyone would have to stop helping out their friends, family, and people from their racial groups and that isn’t going to happen in the near future.

+100000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/01/16/opinion/men-trump-voters-focus-group.html?unlocked_article_code=1.pk4.M2Hr.Thy5lM84dXHH&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

I just read this and I am not sure there is an eye roll emoji that can accurately reflect how ridiculous this article is. A focus group of 12 men who voted for Trump. I admit I am a 40-something woman, with sisters and daughters so I probably have less opportunity to see this, but I struggle to believe that men are feeling like they don’t have a place in society. They OWN society. What is the deal with this whining? Even the comments about how they feel like chivalry is gone because women give them a dirty look if they hold a door. It is BASIC courtesy. And since when are men worried about getting a dirty look?

Can anyone explain this to me?

They used to own society. Now women own something like 2% and they are seething about it. It's no surprise coming from trumpers though lol. White men are the biggest victims of the 21st century

+100
The thread on gay men proves this. If you're used to being handed everything in life (straight men) and suddenly you have to work for things, you get mad. If you haven't had everything handed to you in life, you're benefiting now that societal values have shifted.

To be fair, pretty much everything I've read over the last few years paints white men as the root of all evil. Blatant racism against white people is 100% tolerated almost everywhere. I'm an Asian woman so I don't feel that bad, but I truly think that the intense vitriol against white men for even existing gave Trump the election.

I'm a Asian woman married to a white man, and he agrees that historically, white rulers did do a lot of damage and were kind of evil.

They also historically did a lot of evil things to minorities in the US, too.

They held all the power, so they get all the blame.

They also did a lot of good but we aren't good at nuance so we ignore all of that right now. Doesn't fit the narrative.

We've spent all of history lauding the accomplishments of white men.

Okay. But people today are not all of history.

So, even though history books show mostly white male accomplishments, we still need to stroke the egos of white men today because they have such fragile egos?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other thread on this has been eye-opening.

I'm beginning to see how Trump won. He's a voice for the marginalized and straight white dudes now see themselves that way due to overzealous DEI practices.

I find some DEI practices a bit too restrictive. We had a female employee give notice and to maintain a "good ratio" on our team, my supervisor said the new hire had to be a woman. So boobs > qualifications, cool.

Mock men, and particularly cisgender white males, for believing the premise of the NYT article if you want.

But then consider the well-established facts which might lead these men to conclude they are being marginalized:

For example, read this Bloomberg article:

“The year after Black Lives Matter protests, the S&P 100 added more than 300,000 jobs — 94% went to people of color.”

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2023-black-lives-matter-equal-opportunity-corporate-diversity/


Think about that: 94%.

You cannot deny the facts.

dp. did you look into the types of jobs that are part of that 94%? You sure those aren't "black jobs", as Trump says.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other thread on this has been eye-opening.

I'm beginning to see how Trump won. He's a voice for the marginalized and straight white dudes now see themselves that way due to overzealous DEI practices.

I find some DEI practices a bit too restrictive. We had a female employee give notice and to maintain a "good ratio" on our team, my supervisor said the new hire had to be a woman. So boobs > qualifications, cool.

Mock men, and particularly cisgender white males, for believing the premise of the NYT article if you want.

But then consider the well-established facts which might lead these men to conclude they are being marginalized:

For example, read this Bloomberg article:

“The year after Black Lives Matter protests, the S&P 100 added more than 300,000 jobs — 94% went to people of color.”

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2023-black-lives-matter-equal-opportunity-corporate-diversity/


Think about that: 94%.

You cannot deny the facts.

And how many white men were already employed?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/01/16/opinion/men-trump-voters-focus-group.html?unlocked_article_code=1.pk4.M2Hr.Thy5lM84dXHH&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

I just read this and I am not sure there is an eye roll emoji that can accurately reflect how ridiculous this article is. A focus group of 12 men who voted for Trump. I admit I am a 40-something woman, with sisters and daughters so I probably have less opportunity to see this, but I struggle to believe that men are feeling like they don’t have a place in society. They OWN society. What is the deal with this whining? Even the comments about how they feel like chivalry is gone because women give them a dirty look if they hold a door. It is BASIC courtesy. And since when are men worried about getting a dirty look?

Can anyone explain this to me?

They used to own society. Now women own something like 2% and they are seething about it. It's no surprise coming from trumpers though lol. White men are the biggest victims of the 21st century

+100
The thread on gay men proves this. If you're used to being handed everything in life (straight men) and suddenly you have to work for things, you get mad. If you haven't had everything handed to you in life, you're benefiting now that societal values have shifted.

To be fair, pretty much everything I've read over the last few years paints white men as the root of all evil. Blatant racism against white people is 100% tolerated almost everywhere. I'm an Asian woman so I don't feel that bad, but I truly think that the intense vitriol against white men for even existing gave Trump the election.

I'm a Asian woman married to a white man, and he agrees that historically, white rulers did do a lot of damage and were kind of evil.

They also historically did a lot of evil things to minorities in the US, too.

They held all the power, so they get all the blame.

They also did a lot of good but we aren't good at nuance so we ignore all of that right now. Doesn't fit the narrative.

We've spent all of history lauding the accomplishments of white men.

Okay. But people today are not all of history.

So, even though history books show mostly white male accomplishments, we still need to stroke the egos of white men today because they have such fragile egos?

The real snowflakes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe they suddenly are experiencing a lack of sea parting for straight men in society and are having breakdowns and being crybabies. Mad because society has started to value competence and excellence over gender/race/physical appearance/stereotypes of what kind of people should be in what roles in society.

Agree. There is an idiom for this: when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

An example is a study done in business meetings. When women spoke 25% of the time, men said that men and women spoke equally as often. When women spoke just 30% of the time, men said that women dominated the conversation. It objectively wasn’t true, but women only had to speak a little more for men to think they were dominating the conversation.

Men (esp white men of a certain age) were raised believing that they would be at the top of the food chain. And that’s still mostly true. But they have to share some of the spotlight now, and boy, they don’t like it.

I certainly think we have work to do regarding equality, but in my profession I have noticed that in the past 5-8 years literally ZERO white people have been given residencies, grants, fellowships or stipends in the DC area. Well, I think maybe there was one white woman but she was gay. So, as a white person, I have been going after every single thing and have been shut out. I'm not saying anything of course because the whole world would call me a Karen, but I guess I'm lucky my spouse makes a decent amount of money because I have totally stagnated despite being pretty damn talented and incredibly hard working.

Every group tries to help their own out. White men were getting their golfing buddies and frat bros in for years. So we start getting people of color and women into positions of power, they then start helping out their fellow women. That was the original point of DEI, to break up the boys club. For it to be a true meritocracy, everyone would have to stop helping out their friends, family, and people from their racial groups and that isn’t going to happen in the near future.

No, that's not it. White men are hiring, but they are not hiring white people. You have convinced them that everyone-but-white people deserve their chance. So that's who they are hiring.

It's not a meritocracy. It's something else.

I have definitely seen white men purposefully not hiring white people because they know they’ll get into trouble.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe they suddenly are experiencing a lack of sea parting for straight men in society and are having breakdowns and being crybabies. Mad because society has started to value competence and excellence over gender/race/physical appearance/stereotypes of what kind of people should be in what roles in society.

Agree. There is an idiom for this: when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

An example is a study done in business meetings. When women spoke 25% of the time, men said that men and women spoke equally as often. When women spoke just 30% of the time, men said that women dominated the conversation. It objectively wasn’t true, but women only had to speak a little more for men to think they were dominating the conversation.

Men (esp white men of a certain age) were raised believing that they would be at the top of the food chain. And that’s still mostly true. But they have to share some of the spotlight now, and boy, they don’t like it.

I certainly think we have work to do regarding equality, but in my profession I have noticed that in the past 5-8 years literally ZERO white people have been given residencies, grants, fellowships or stipends in the DC area. Well, I think maybe there was one white woman but she was gay. So, as a white person, I have been going after every single thing and have been shut out. I'm not saying anything of course because the whole world would call me a Karen, but I guess I'm lucky my spouse makes a decent amount of money because I have totally stagnated despite being pretty damn talented and incredibly hard working.

Your anecdotal observation that white people are excluded from consideration for hiring, is consistent with the factual statistics compiled by the S&P, and reported by Bloomberg, among others:

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2023-black-lives-matter-equal-opportunity-corporate-diversity/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other thread on this has been eye-opening.

I'm beginning to see how Trump won. He's a voice for the marginalized and straight white dudes now see themselves that way due to overzealous DEI practices.

I find some DEI practices a bit too restrictive. We had a female employee give notice and to maintain a "good ratio" on our team, my supervisor said the new hire had to be a woman. So boobs > qualifications, cool.

Mock men, and particularly cisgender white males, for believing the premise of the NYT article if you want.

But then consider the well-established facts which might lead these men to conclude they are being marginalized:

For example, read this Bloomberg article:

“The year after Black Lives Matter protests, the S&P 100 added more than 300,000 jobs — 94% went to people of color.”

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2023-black-lives-matter-equal-opportunity-corporate-diversity/


Think about that: 94%.

You cannot deny the facts.

dp. did you look into the types of jobs that are part of that 94%? You sure those aren't "black jobs", as Trump says.

Hmmm - so your premise is:

- the type of job excuses blatantly apparent racism?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other thread on this has been eye-opening.

I'm beginning to see how Trump won. He's a voice for the marginalized and straight white dudes now see themselves that way due to overzealous DEI practices.

I find some DEI practices a bit too restrictive. We had a female employee give notice and to maintain a "good ratio" on our team, my supervisor said the new hire had to be a woman. So boobs > qualifications, cool.

Mock men, and particularly cisgender white males, for believing the premise of the NYT article if you want.

But then consider the well-established facts which might lead these men to conclude they are being marginalized:

For example, read this Bloomberg article:

“The year after Black Lives Matter protests, the S&P 100 added more than 300,000 jobs — 94% went to people of color.”

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2023-black-lives-matter-equal-opportunity-corporate-diversity/


Think about that: 94%.

You cannot deny the facts.

dp. did you look into the types of jobs that are part of that 94%? You sure those aren't "black jobs", as Trump says.

Oh, I got by the blocker now. Yes, those were corp jobs.

But, let's be honest... even the website says that minorities are under represented in the corporate world.

From that site:

White people still hold a disproportionate share of the top, highly paid jobs in the US at S&P 100 companies. But the share of executive, managerial and professional roles held by people of color increased by about 2 percentage points compared with 2020 — more than double the average annual gains at big and mid-sized US companies in previous years.

Wow, a whole 2%. Yep, white men are being marginalized.

Minorities were excluded from top corporate jobs for the longest time. The white "good old boys network" ensured that. This is part of the reason why Asian Americans tend towards STEM jobs because there's less of that and more of "what do you know".

If we didn't have a DEI push, how would minorities or even women ever break into the top echelons of business? I seriously doubt the good old boys network would accommodate them on their own selfless self.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/01/16/opinion/men-trump-voters-focus-group.html?unlocked_article_code=1.pk4.M2Hr.Thy5lM84dXHH&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

I just read this and I am not sure there is an eye roll emoji that can accurately reflect how ridiculous this article is. A focus group of 12 men who voted for Trump. I admit I am a 40-something woman, with sisters and daughters so I probably have less opportunity to see this, but I struggle to believe that men are feeling like they don’t have a place in society. They OWN society. What is the deal with this whining? Even the comments about how they feel like chivalry is gone because women give them a dirty look if they hold a door. It is BASIC courtesy. And since when are men worried about getting a dirty look?

Can anyone explain this to me?

I bet the people who are disagreeing with you, OP, are these BOY MOMS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/01/16/opinion/men-trump-voters-focus-group.html?unlocked_article_code=1.pk4.M2Hr.Thy5lM84dXHH&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

I just read this and I am not sure there is an eye roll emoji that can accurately reflect how ridiculous this article is. A focus group of 12 men who voted for Trump. I admit I am a 40-something woman, with sisters and daughters so I probably have less opportunity to see this, but I struggle to believe that men are feeling like they don’t have a place in society. They OWN society. What is the deal with this whining? Even the comments about how they feel like chivalry is gone because women give them a dirty look if they hold a door. It is BASIC courtesy. And since when are men worried about getting a dirty look?

Can anyone explain this to me?

I bet the people who are disagreeing with you, OP, are these BOY MOMS.

boy moms are the worst!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe they suddenly are experiencing a lack of sea parting for straight men in society and are having breakdowns and being crybabies. Mad because society has started to value competence and excellence over gender/race/physical appearance/stereotypes of what kind of people should be in what roles in society.

Agree. There is an idiom for this: when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

An example is a study done in business meetings. When women spoke 25% of the time, men said that men and women spoke equally as often. When women spoke just 30% of the time, men said that women dominated the conversation. It objectively wasn’t true, but women only had to speak a little more for men to think they were dominating the conversation.

Men (esp white men of a certain age) were raised believing that they would be at the top of the food chain. And that’s still mostly true. But they have to share some of the spotlight now, and boy, they don’t like it.

I certainly think we have work to do regarding equality, but in my profession I have noticed that in the past 5-8 years literally ZERO white people have been given residencies, grants, fellowships or stipends in the DC area. Well, I think maybe there was one white woman but she was gay. So, as a white person, I have been going after every single thing and have been shut out. I'm not saying anything of course because the whole world would call me a Karen, but I guess I'm lucky my spouse makes a decent amount of money because I have totally stagnated despite being pretty damn talented and incredibly hard working.

Every group tries to help their own out. White men were getting their golfing buddies and frat bros in for years. So we start getting people of color and women into positions of power, they then start helping out their fellow women. That was the original point of DEI, to break up the boys club. For it to be a true meritocracy, everyone would have to stop helping out their friends, family, and people from their racial groups and that isn’t going to happen in the near future.

No, that's not it. White men are hiring, but they are not hiring white people. You have convinced them that everyone-but-white people deserve their chance. So that's who they are hiring.

It's not a meritocracy. It's something else.

This is how it's currently done in academia. White men hiring but only hiring people of color. Candidates often have to write a statement about how they will promote diversity in their work and teaching. It's going to weed out anyone who doesn't have "lived experience" and thar's probably the point. It's not really open to CIS white people though they can get adjunct/PT jobs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want to speak specifically to the door holding thing:

20 years ago I was an intern in the US Senate and gave constituent tours. In between making up facts about the capitol building, I had to usher people through doors that required a badge swipe to access. Standard procedure was: I swipe my badge, open door, hold it as they all walk through, I close door and secure it.

This would *break* some of the men on my tours. Especially older men, but young ones too. They couldn't handle having a 20 yr old woman hold a door open for them. Some of them would try to forcibly take the door from me. Most would just stand there, waiting for me to go through the door before them. I would explain i had to go through last. They would persist, say things like "I wasn't raised that way."

It was a small inconvenience but it was also deranged and really stuck with me. Perhaps they just struggled with a rule that had always been drilled into them (ladies first). Or perhaps the role reversal felt like a loss of status and control.

But that's what I thought about when I read the thing about these men feeling like women didn't want them to hold open doors for them.

Only crazy progressive women get upset about men holding the doors for them.

Wrong. I'm not a crazy progressive and don't like it.

I am a crazy progressive and don’t care. Except on elevators. Every woman in DC has been on an elevator where a man standing in front of her turned into a physical pretzel to let her out first rather than getting out first himself and making exit much simpler.