AEM post/discussion re racism and choice schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My takeaway is that if you have enough money to buy a house in the wealthiest zip codes, you never have to worry about being called racist.

You think so? I think it's more that you isolate yourself so much that you don't hear the people who call you racist because they aren't your fellow "flee from the south arlington schools" people. If you were to be a fly in south Arlington conversations, you would hear the racist accusations toward those wealthiest zip coders.

This is so dumb to me. I live in N Arlington because both DH and I had jobs right along I-66/orange line corridor. South Arlington would not work for our commutes.

Real nice community you have in the south part of the county talking crap about people in different zip codes. FWIW I’ve never heard anyone in the North part of the county say bad things about the people living in the south part.

This is hysterical.
The commute wouldn't work for you, but it works for egads of people in south Arlington? Where do you work? It might not be as straightforward a commute; but surely it would "work" because you're capable of figuring out how to make it work just like thousands of other people.
You either don't hear northern residents bad-mouthing the southies because y'all don't bother to talk about south arlington - since it's a separate world from yours; or you just aren't interacting with the ones who do. Not all southies think all northies are racist a-holes and not all northies think all southies are ignorant homeless criminals. But if your commute from south Arlington would have worked for you, I'm sure you would have been equally happy to attend Carlin Springs or Randolph.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I didn't comment in that thread, but I've looked at these data before and there is a very strong relationship between school poverty level and the % of families who opt out. The reality is that APS is happy to have a bunch of schools that are 40% or more free and reduced lunch, and the families zoned for those schools apply for option schools at a much higher rate.

Does that make them racist? I don't think so. Data show when a school goes above 40% or more FARMS outcomes suffer. The real issue is that Arlington is all about concentrating poverty and doesn't really care how it affects schools.

I don't really what the point JF is trying to make, that wasn't clear to me. Does he want to kill option programs? Or is he just pointing out that parents behave in this way? I know his wife teaches at a low income school and he thinks people are dumb to avoid it because it's a good school.

APS has basically said they are not going to consider this in any boundary decisions, and they pretty much always make the FARMS disparities worse in every single boundary decision. I can't see options schools going away, personally.

But I do think it's ridiculous that Arlington has such huge disparities.

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS!!!!!!!

JF seems unwilling to make his point clear. People are drawing their own varying interpretations. Mine is that, yes, he's suggesting the elimination of option programs as a cost savings measure because his singular first, top, main priority is teacher raises. Period. First of all, if he had managed to retain his VLP option for his kid, he wouldn't be making this suggestion because it would be hypocritical and eliminate up an option he exercised for his kid. Second of all, he's making a vague insinuation without providing any information or data to support it. Everyone knows more people from south arlington/high FRL/high ELL schools are most of the people seeking options. The only data he's provided only speaks to that and not to anything else -- and he's not saying anything else, therefore providing no other data or info.

I know he's fought hard for positive things and has devoted tremendous time and energy. But I, for one, have had enough of him; and I had my fill before his recent coy approach. He never hesitated to clearly state his point before - so why now?

Because JF knows that staying ambiguous will start the conversation with people taking sides. He intended for the thread to be controversial and now he can back away saying that he truly did not say anything. Because he didn’t. I feel like he’s playing us all.

With each speech he posts to AEM, it’s starting to feel a bit more Machiavellian. I believe JF knows exactly what he’s doing. Staying above it all but not really can only take you so far.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He named his link to the data "[his name] is probably wrong." I took it as a conversation starter, and it did seem to start a conversation.

Is he responding to comments?

No, which I find so annoying. If he’s going to be posting this stuff then he should at least explain and defend his view. I don’t understand that other person who keeps posting and defending him and trying to say “what I think he means is xyz…”

I chose an option school to avoid my neighborhood school and it’s not because I’m racist. I’m not white. It’s because my neighborhood score has low academic standards, behavioral issues, etc. If my neighborhood school had the same demographics but had a curriculum and expectations more like ATS I would not have left!

Back when we had to make this decision a decade ago our “neighborhood school” wasn’t being used by any of our neighbors, so there was no reason for us to consider it. We would have had to walk our kid to school (not something we wanted to do daily, taking 20 mins out of each morning before a commute), and kid wouldn’t have known anyone. Also, it was overcrowded and had abysmal scores. Literally nothing could’ve compelled us to send DC there. If there hadn’t been a public alternative we would’ve moved or gone private like the families who didn’t get into an option school by lottery.

Nobody wants their kid to be a lonely only, to have a birthday party nobody shows up to, to be teased for being “rich” or white, all things we had heard happened to the one family who did use the neighborhood school (a couple years ahead of us). They eventually moved to the Tuckahoe zone. Let’s talk about that. Okay?

Sorry, can't talk about that in Arlington. See, if a school has a lot of Spanish speakers or FRL students, it is "diverse." Even if it is 80% non-white and 50% native Spanish speakers. And white people can never feel isolated or teased because, well, because they're white. There is no racism toward whites.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The option schools (other than immersion which I strongly support) are terrible for APS. It is a brain drain of the neighborhood schools (mostly South Arlington. The problem with the post is that the author is one of those people that sees everything through a race lens even when it’s not the major driver (if at all) for people opting out of neighborhood schools.

Option schools are diverse but it is full of families who take initiative in their kids education. Their scores are better and they have more homework, structure, dress codes, etc. those are things my family values. All these families leaving their neighborhood schools to opt in to a more “traditional” or Montessori education are hurting the neighborhood. This is because the biggest indicator of success is a child’s peers. We should end the option programs and replicate what works (ATS) across APS. If you want a special Montessori curriculum for your kids, go private or start lobbying for school choice because that’s what’s you want.

(Side bar on immersion: these are the best environments for kids learning English and/or Spanish. As we get more EL students these programs are even more important. Ideally any kid not speaking English fluently would be in immersion that is 50-50 English/spanish).

Very well perceived and stated!
+100

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.

Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.

Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.

It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.

Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.

What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?

A district I used to work for does this now. It seems to work well and many people get a school they rank highly https://schoolchoice.dpsk12.org/o/schoolchoice/page/about

But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)

But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.

Yeah, well, “everyone gets a school near the top of their list” is a farce then. Forcing families into Drew/Randolph/wherever would only result in more families going private.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The option schools (other than immersion which I strongly support) are terrible for APS. It is a brain drain of the neighborhood schools (mostly South Arlington. The problem with the post is that the author is one of those people that sees everything through a race lens even when it’s not the major driver (if at all) for people opting out of neighborhood schools.

Option schools are diverse but it is full of families who take initiative in their kids education. Their scores are better and they have more homework, structure, dress codes, etc. those are things my family values. All these families leaving their neighborhood schools to opt in to a more “traditional” or Montessori education are hurting the neighborhood. This is because the biggest indicator of success is a child’s peers. We should end the option programs and replicate what works (ATS) across APS. If you want a special Montessori curriculum for your kids, go private or start lobbying for school choice because that’s what’s you want.

(Side bar on immersion: these are the best environments for kids learning English and/or Spanish. As we get more EL students these programs are even more important. Ideally any kid not speaking English fluently would be in immersion that is 50-50 English/spanish).

Immersion still contributes to brain drain, why does it get a pass?

Because it isn't "brain drain" merely for the sake of avoiding a school. Some actually want and seek an immersion education. Plus, "brain drain" tends to refer to rich white kids; so immersion is only half that and therefore less draining than an ATS. Also, immersion is a legitimate alternative educational option v. something like ATS or HB. Montessori does have a specific educational model; but I agree with the PP that it does not have to be a public option program. Campbell has a more intense focus on nature and experiential learning; but I don't think it's such a drastic departure from neighborhood programs that it has to be an option program. It's only an option school so Glencarlyn could avoid Carlin Springs back when the neighborhood had guaranteed admission.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok, so ranked choice…

You realize (even more) people who can afford it will flee to private schools, right? And what happens then? I don’t think you’ll get the outcomes you’re hoping for.

People keep saying that being around well-resourced kids has a positive effect on the rest of the student body. What happens when they all leave?

First of all, not all of them will leave. It's not like the system would put individual wealthy kids in Randolph's current demographic mix. There would be a lot more schools in the middle demographically speaking (similar to some of our option school demographics), still doing quite well. Meanwhile, the boost in diversity and resources to Drew and Barcroft etc. start raising those schools' profiles and they become less "lethal" to send your kid to. I don't think the absence of the ones who flee will make as significant a difference as you think it would.

Second of all, people shouldn't expect instant perfection in the results. It's a process. The problem - and most likely cause for failure - would be APS pulling out of the decision too soon. If APS is willing to tolerate the decline in educational quality they've been propogating these past several years, they should be willing to stick out some challenges as they establish more balance across the district.

But you already said that in-boundary students get priority at their neighborhood schools. So then NA families opt for their own schools, leaving us with… the same problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not PP, but I agree. Families definitely opt IN to immersion. No one’s choosing immersion (especially now that they’re doing 80/20) just to avoid their neighborhood school.

Other option schools seem more likely to attract families who want to opt OUT of their neighborhood schools.

JF needs to understand correlation does not equal causation. Perhaps families aren’t trying to avoid diversity (racial and/or economic) but are horrified by low test scores. Of course, school performance is linked to economic status (not always race. Look at some majaority white schools in Kentucky that happen to be very low income). But is it fair to say Arlington families want to get away from black/brown kids? No, it’s not.

And JF wasn’t advocating for VLP to exist during Covid only. He wanted to fund the program in perpetuity. Despite having Virtual Virginia already available. So, spare me, dude.

Exactly, because it was the best learning environment for his son. I specifically recall him saying this. It was not a medical reason to avoid Covid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I didn't comment in that thread, but I've looked at these data before and there is a very strong relationship between school poverty level and the % of families who opt out. The reality is that APS is happy to have a bunch of schools that are 40% or more free and reduced lunch, and the families zoned for those schools apply for option schools at a much higher rate.

Does that make them racist? I don't think so. Data show when a school goes above 40% or more FARMS outcomes suffer. The real issue is that Arlington is all about concentrating poverty and doesn't really care how it affects schools.

I don't really what the point JF is trying to make, that wasn't clear to me. Does he want to kill option programs? Or is he just pointing out that parents behave in this way? I know his wife teaches at a low income school and he thinks people are dumb to avoid it because it's a good school.

APS has basically said they are not going to consider this in any boundary decisions, and they pretty much always make the FARMS disparities worse in every single boundary decision. I can't see options schools going away, personally.

But I do think it's ridiculous that Arlington has such huge disparities.

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS!!!!!!!

JF seems unwilling to make his point clear. People are drawing their own varying interpretations. Mine is that, yes, he's suggesting the elimination of option programs as a cost savings measure because his singular first, top, main priority is teacher raises. Period. First of all, if he had managed to retain his VLP option for his kid, he wouldn't be making this suggestion because it would be hypocritical and eliminate up an option he exercised for his kid. Second of all, he's making a vague insinuation without providing any information or data to support it. Everyone knows more people from south arlington/high FRL/high ELL schools are most of the people seeking options. The only data he's provided only speaks to that and not to anything else -- and he's not saying anything else, therefore providing no other data or info.

I know he's fought hard for positive things and has devoted tremendous time and energy. But I, for one, have had enough of him; and I had my fill before his recent coy approach. He never hesitated to clearly state his point before - so why now?

Because JF knows that staying ambiguous will start the conversation with people taking sides. He intended for the thread to be controversial and now he can back away saying that he truly did not say anything. Because he didn’t. I feel like he’s playing us all.

With each speech he posts to AEM, it’s starting to feel a bit more Machiavellian. I believe JF knows exactly what he’s doing. Staying above it all but not really can only take you so far.

Super weird to insult all the parents who choose option schools by saying we are unethical and then go silent and he's the victim? Okaaaayyyyy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Over the past decade, every boundary change at the ES, MS, HS levels, and every option program move towards full independence has only exacerbated demographic segregation among the county’s schools. And now the new boundary policy deprecates or discards demographic criteria. Moreover, in the current legal climate, that is the safe route with the least potential for conflict.

I think this is why some people have thrown up their hands and would rather eliminate neighborhood schools and move to ranked choice model for all schools. A lottery model.

That's true for me. I wasn't a ranked choice advocate before; but I'm fully on board now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I didn't comment in that thread, but I've looked at these data before and there is a very strong relationship between school poverty level and the % of families who opt out. The reality is that APS is happy to have a bunch of schools that are 40% or more free and reduced lunch, and the families zoned for those schools apply for option schools at a much higher rate.

Does that make them racist? I don't think so. Data show when a school goes above 40% or more FARMS outcomes suffer. The real issue is that Arlington is all about concentrating poverty and doesn't really care how it affects schools.

I don't really what the point JF is trying to make, that wasn't clear to me. Does he want to kill option programs? Or is he just pointing out that parents behave in this way? I know his wife teaches at a low income school and he thinks people are dumb to avoid it because it's a good school.

APS has basically said they are not going to consider this in any boundary decisions, and they pretty much always make the FARMS disparities worse in every single boundary decision. I can't see options schools going away, personally.

But I do think it's ridiculous that Arlington has such huge disparities.

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS!!!!!!!

JF seems unwilling to make his point clear. People are drawing their own varying interpretations. Mine is that, yes, he's suggesting the elimination of option programs as a cost savings measure because his singular first, top, main priority is teacher raises. Period. First of all, if he had managed to retain his VLP option for his kid, he wouldn't be making this suggestion because it would be hypocritical and eliminate up an option he exercised for his kid. Second of all, he's making a vague insinuation without providing any information or data to support it. Everyone knows more people from south arlington/high FRL/high ELL schools are most of the people seeking options. The only data he's provided only speaks to that and not to anything else -- and he's not saying anything else, therefore providing no other data or info.

I know he's fought hard for positive things and has devoted tremendous time and energy. But I, for one, have had enough of him; and I had my fill before his recent coy approach. He never hesitated to clearly state his point before - so why now?

Because JF knows that staying ambiguous will start the conversation with people taking sides. He intended for the thread to be controversial and now he can back away saying that he truly did not say anything. Because he didn’t. I feel like he’s playing us all.

+1. Definitely. Absolutely. He's annoying; but not stupid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I didn't comment in that thread, but I've looked at these data before and there is a very strong relationship between school poverty level and the % of families who opt out. The reality is that APS is happy to have a bunch of schools that are 40% or more free and reduced lunch, and the families zoned for those schools apply for option schools at a much higher rate.

Does that make them racist? I don't think so. Data show when a school goes above 40% or more FARMS outcomes suffer. The real issue is that Arlington is all about concentrating poverty and doesn't really care how it affects schools.

I don't really what the point JF is trying to make, that wasn't clear to me. Does he want to kill option programs? Or is he just pointing out that parents behave in this way? I know his wife teaches at a low income school and he thinks people are dumb to avoid it because it's a good school.

APS has basically said they are not going to consider this in any boundary decisions, and they pretty much always make the FARMS disparities worse in every single boundary decision. I can't see options schools going away, personally.

But I do think it's ridiculous that Arlington has such huge disparities.

Best response, and you know why? Because you are one of very few people who realize the word ‘data’ is plural. 😁

Not when it's looked at as a "set" of information.

Then say data set.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I didn't comment in that thread, but I've looked at these data before and there is a very strong relationship between school poverty level and the % of families who opt out. The reality is that APS is happy to have a bunch of schools that are 40% or more free and reduced lunch, and the families zoned for those schools apply for option schools at a much higher rate.

Does that make them racist? I don't think so. Data show when a school goes above 40% or more FARMS outcomes suffer. The real issue is that Arlington is all about concentrating poverty and doesn't really care how it affects schools.

I don't really what the point JF is trying to make, that wasn't clear to me. Does he want to kill option programs? Or is he just pointing out that parents behave in this way? I know his wife teaches at a low income school and he thinks people are dumb to avoid it because it's a good school.

APS has basically said they are not going to consider this in any boundary decisions, and they pretty much always make the FARMS disparities worse in every single boundary decision. I can't see options schools going away, personally.

But I do think it's ridiculous that Arlington has such huge disparities.

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS!!!!!!!

JF seems unwilling to make his point clear. People are drawing their own varying interpretations. Mine is that, yes, he's suggesting the elimination of option programs as a cost savings measure because his singular first, top, main priority is teacher raises. Period. First of all, if he had managed to retain his VLP option for his kid, he wouldn't be making this suggestion because it would be hypocritical and eliminate up an option he exercised for his kid. Second of all, he's making a vague insinuation without providing any information or data to support it. Everyone knows more people from south arlington/high FRL/high ELL schools are most of the people seeking options. The only data he's provided only speaks to that and not to anything else -- and he's not saying anything else, therefore providing no other data or info.

I know he's fought hard for positive things and has devoted tremendous time and energy. But I, for one, have had enough of him; and I had my fill before his recent coy approach. He never hesitated to clearly state his point before - so why now?

Because JF knows that staying ambiguous will start the conversation with people taking sides. He intended for the thread to be controversial and now he can back away saying that he truly did not say anything. Because he didn’t. I feel like he’s playing us all.

With each speech he posts to AEM, it’s starting to feel a bit more Machiavellian. I believe JF knows exactly what he’s doing. Staying above it all but not really can only take you so far.

Super weird to insult all the parents who choose option schools by saying we are unethical and then go silent and he's the victim? Okaaaayyyyy.

He did the same thing on the teacher thread which is unlike him. He had to know it would upset his colleagues who worked at the school as well as those who send their kids to one

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The option schools (other than immersion which I strongly support) are terrible for APS. It is a brain drain of the neighborhood schools (mostly South Arlington. The problem with the post is that the author is one of those people that sees everything through a race lens even when it’s not the major driver (if at all) for people opting out of neighborhood schools.

Option schools are diverse but it is full of families who take initiative in their kids education. Their scores are better and they have more homework, structure, dress codes, etc. those are things my family values. All these families leaving their neighborhood schools to opt in to a more “traditional” or Montessori education are hurting the neighborhood. This is because the biggest indicator of success is a child’s peers. We should end the option programs and replicate what works (ATS) across APS. If you want a special Montessori curriculum for your kids, go private or start lobbying for school choice because that’s what’s you want.

(Side bar on immersion: these are the best environments for kids learning English and/or Spanish. As we get more EL students these programs are even more important. Ideally any kid not speaking English fluently would be in immersion that is 50-50 English/spanish).

Immersion still contributes to brain drain, why does it get a pass?

Because it isn't "brain drain" merely for the sake of avoiding a school. Some actually want and seek an immersion education. Plus, "brain drain" tends to refer to rich white kids; so immersion is only half that and therefore less draining than an ATS. Also, immersion is a legitimate alternative educational option v. something like ATS or HB. Montessori does have a specific educational model; but I agree with the PP that it does not have to be a public option program. Campbell has a more intense focus on nature and experiential learning; but I don't think it's such a drastic departure from neighborhood programs that it has to be an option program. It's only an option school so Glencarlyn could avoid Carlin Springs back when the neighborhood had guaranteed admission.

But immersion’s great educational outcomes mostly benefit English learners and professional, middle class Spanish speaking families. Does the actual ELs gain the same? The data likely suggests otherwise.

[Anonymous]

* I meant Spanish learners, aka the White/Asian kids.