AEM post/discussion re racism and choice schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.

Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.

Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.

It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.

Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Doesn’t one of the main posters send their kid to a high school program that they’re not zoned for?

Yes, but I think that was part of the complaint, that the program is overwhelmingly white. So parents taking advantage of the choices aren’t contributing positively to SES diversity. That said, we completed an application for said program even though we were pretty sure our DC wanted to stay in the zoned HS, and it was a barrier in my mind. They required an essay, as does Arl Tech, and that alone made it seem “exclusive,” and not just a lottery not based on “merit.” So it’s not a real surprise to me that it’s attracting a certain type of family/student, ones who aren’t intimidated by the barrier.

A program like Arlington Tech SHOULD be admitting "certain type of students" - ones who are PBL-style learners passionate about the types of programs offered there and that the program leads to, and a good fit for a lot of dual-enrollment, not traditional AP or IB courseloads. It's not making it "exclusive," rather making sure students really want to be there, are a good fit (not because of race), and meet the academic pre-requisites (Alg2 completed before 10th grade, last I heard). If a student is too intimidated by writing an essay, then I'd say they aren't that passionate about the program and/or not a good fit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Doesn’t one of the main posters send their kid to a high school program that they’re not zoned for?

Yes, but I think that was part of the complaint, that the program is overwhelmingly white. So parents taking advantage of the choices aren’t contributing positively to SES diversity. That said, we completed an application for said program even though we were pretty sure our DC wanted to stay in the zoned HS, and it was a barrier in my mind. They required an essay, as does Arl Tech, and that alone made it seem “exclusive,” and not just a lottery not based on “merit.” So it’s not a real surprise to me that it’s attracting a certain type of family/student, ones who aren’t intimidated by the barrier.

But these programs are not designed specifically for SES diversity. It would be one thing if that is how they were designed/marketed, but... they aren't. More change needed of course.

Sure, but I think the point is if it’s not contributing it might be harming, and that’s not great. I don’t agree that this is the case at the ES level, because walkable ES boundaries just cannot make desegregated schools at this level, even if you remove all the option schools. You’d just be shuffling the segregation to an alternate school. And the policies in place, to a large degree, have kept the option ES a fairly close reflection of the overall APS demographic.

But the option programs at the MS and HS level are not reflective of the APS demographic and that feels wrong to me, and to the poster. Seems like a policy issue here, and one that’s solvable.

Yes and no. Admissions policies could potentially require %s of male/female; %sED; etc. But if academic preparedness and learning style and subject-matter passion aren't aligned, no such student should be admitted to a program designed for those things. And if an option program is not designed for those things, then it shouldn't be an option - because it's really not a unique program. The whole purpose of an alternative instructional model is to address the different learning styles of students. Not to give families options for the sake of having options or to create schools of specific demographics.

The real solution is to address education at the elementary and middle school levels and eliminate achievement gaps so that students from all backgrounds are (1) prepared for a specific program and (2) have more interest in such programs. In conjunction, admission policies such as "x" number of slots available for students from each elementary or middle school (like HBW admissions) help; but fuller admission policies that include demographics like I mentioned above would produce much better diversity results.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My takeaway is that if you have enough money to buy a house in the wealthiest zip codes, you never have to worry about being called racist.

You think so? I think it's more that you isolate yourself so much that you don't hear the people who call you racist because they aren't your fellow "flee from the south arlington schools" people. If you were to be a fly in south Arlington conversations, you would hear the racist accusations toward those wealthiest zip coders.

[Anonymous]

South Arlington residents think everyone else in Arlington is racist. It’s their response to anything you disagree on.

[Anonymous]

I’m a North Arlington resident who thinks N Arlington is racist so…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.

Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.

Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.

It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.

Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.

Yep. Bring it on

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.

Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.

Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.

It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.

Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.

What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.

Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.

Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.

It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.

Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.

Of course you’re correct. I meant not solvable with boundaries and not realistic to think anything else would ever happen. It will be a cold day in hell before ranked choice is implemented. Staff gets fired for suggesting schools in the great white North could be consolidated. Heads roll for much less controversial things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.

Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.

Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.

It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.

Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.

What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?

A district I used to work for does this now. It seems to work well and many people get a school they rank highly https://schoolchoice.dpsk12.org/o/schoolchoice/page/about

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Doesn’t one of the main posters send their kid to a high school program that they’re not zoned for?

Yes, but I think that was part of the complaint, that the program is overwhelmingly white. So parents taking advantage of the choices aren’t contributing positively to SES diversity. That said, we completed an application for said program even though we were pretty sure our DC wanted to stay in the zoned HS, and it was a barrier in my mind. They required an essay, as does Arl Tech, and that alone made it seem “exclusive,” and not just a lottery not based on “merit.” So it’s not a real surprise to me that it’s attracting a certain type of family/student, ones who aren’t intimidated by the barrier.

But these programs are not designed specifically for SES diversity. It would be one thing if that is how they were designed/marketed, but... they aren't. More change needed of course.

Sure, but I think the point is if it’s not contributing it might be harming, and that’s not great. I don’t agree that this is the case at the ES level, because walkable ES boundaries just cannot make desegregated schools at this level, even if you remove all the option schools. You’d just be shuffling the segregation to an alternate school. And the policies in place, to a large degree, have kept the option ES a fairly close reflection of the overall APS demographic.

But the option programs at the MS and HS level are not reflective of the APS demographic and that feels wrong to me, and to the poster. Seems like a policy issue here, and one that’s solvable.

Yes and no. Admissions policies could potentially require %s of male/female; %sED; etc. But if academic preparedness and learning style and subject-matter passion aren't aligned, no such student should be admitted to a program designed for those things. And if an option program is not designed for those things, then it shouldn't be an option - because it's really not a unique program. The whole purpose of an alternative instructional model is to address the different learning styles of students. Not to give families options for the sake of having options or to create schools of specific demographics.

The real solution is to address education at the elementary and middle school levels and eliminate achievement gaps so that students from all backgrounds are (1) prepared for a specific program and (2) have more interest in such programs. In conjunction, admission policies such as "x" number of slots available for students from each elementary or middle school (like HBW admissions) help; but fuller admission policies that include demographics like I mentioned above would produce much better diversity results.

Correct, but how? If you know the answer, AND how you can get the community to buy in to implement the how when it seems like their precious snowflakes might not have each and every advantage all for themselves, in all sincerity you should be in charge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My takeaway is that if you have enough money to buy a house in the wealthiest zip codes, you never have to worry about being called racist.

Yup. The ARM post is definitely targeted to families in Barcroft, Green Valley, and Arlington View.

[Anonymous]

I didn't comment in that thread, but I've looked at these data before and there is a very strong relationship between school poverty level and the % of families who opt out. The reality is that APS is happy to have a bunch of schools that are 40% or more free and reduced lunch, and the families zoned for those schools apply for option schools at a much higher rate.

Does that make them racist? I don't think so. Data show when a school goes above 40% or more FARMS outcomes suffer. The real issue is that Arlington is all about concentrating poverty and doesn't really care how it affects schools.

I don't really what the point JF is trying to make, that wasn't clear to me. Does he want to kill option programs? Or is he just pointing out that parents behave in this way? I know his wife teaches at a low income school and he thinks people are dumb to avoid it because it's a good school.

APS has basically said they are not going to consider this in any boundary decisions, and they pretty much always make the FARMS disparities worse in every single boundary decision. I can't see options schools going away, personally.

But I do think it's ridiculous that Arlington has such huge disparities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.

Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.

Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.

It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.

Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.

What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?

A district I used to work for does this now. It seems to work well and many people get a school they rank highly https://schoolchoice.dpsk12.org/o/schoolchoice/page/about

But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I didn't comment in that thread, but I've looked at these data before and there is a very strong relationship between school poverty level and the % of families who opt out. The reality is that APS is happy to have a bunch of schools that are 40% or more free and reduced lunch, and the families zoned for those schools apply for option schools at a much higher rate.

Does that make them racist? I don't think so. Data show when a school goes above 40% or more FARMS outcomes suffer. The real issue is that Arlington is all about concentrating poverty and doesn't really care how it affects schools.

I don't really what the point JF is trying to make, that wasn't clear to me. Does he want to kill option programs? Or is he just pointing out that parents behave in this way? I know his wife teaches at a low income school and he thinks people are dumb to avoid it because it's a good school.

APS has basically said they are not going to consider this in any boundary decisions, and they pretty much always make the FARMS disparities worse in every single boundary decision. I can't see options schools going away, personally.

But I do think it's ridiculous that Arlington has such huge disparities.

Best response, and you know why? Because you are one of very few people who realize the word ‘data’ is plural. 😁