AEM post/discussion re racism and choice schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The option schools (other than immersion which I strongly support) are terrible for APS. It is a brain drain of the neighborhood schools (mostly South Arlington. The problem with the post is that the author is one of those people that sees everything through a race lens even when it’s not the major driver (if at all) for people opting out of neighborhood schools.

Option schools are diverse but it is full of families who take initiative in their kids education. Their scores are better and they have more homework, structure, dress codes, etc. those are things my family values. All these families leaving their neighborhood schools to opt in to a more “traditional” or Montessori education are hurting the neighborhood. This is because the biggest indicator of success is a child’s peers. We should end the option programs and replicate what works (ATS) across APS. If you want a special Montessori curriculum for your kids, go private or start lobbying for school choice because that’s what’s you want.

(Side bar on immersion: these are the best environments for kids learning English and/or Spanish. As we get more EL students these programs are even more important. Ideally any kid not speaking English fluently would be in immersion that is 50-50 English/spanish).

Ahh so you are one of those who only see value in the program you personally like and want to slash the rest. Pass.

No. My kids are not in immersion but I recognize the value not just to EL students but to society as a whole of having more dual language speakers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.

Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.

Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.

It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.

Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.

Of course you’re correct. I meant not solvable with boundaries and not realistic to think anything else would ever happen. It will be a cold day in hell before ranked choice is implemented. Staff gets fired for suggesting schools in the great white North could be consolidated. Heads roll for much less controversial things.

Yes. However, I'm tired of the inaccuracy of saying this is an unsolvable issue. Fact is, it is not unsolvable. It is merely highly unlikely in Arlington because leadership has no guts nor leadership ability and "the community" will be in an uproar. That doesn't make it unsolvable. I think it's important to keep highlighting that - instead of just throwing up hands and saying "it is what it is and we can't do anything about it."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The option schools (other than immersion which I strongly support) are terrible for APS. It is a brain drain of the neighborhood schools (mostly South Arlington. The problem with the post is that the author is one of those people that sees everything through a race lens even when it’s not the major driver (if at all) for people opting out of neighborhood schools.

Option schools are diverse but it is full of families who take initiative in their kids education. Their scores are better and they have more homework, structure, dress codes, etc. those are things my family values. All these families leaving their neighborhood schools to opt in to a more “traditional” or Montessori education are hurting the neighborhood. This is because the biggest indicator of success is a child’s peers. We should end the option programs and replicate what works (ATS) across APS. If you want a special Montessori curriculum for your kids, go private or start lobbying for school choice because that’s what’s you want.

(Side bar on immersion: these are the best environments for kids learning English and/or Spanish. As we get more EL students these programs are even more important. Ideally any kid not speaking English fluently would be in immersion that is 50-50 English/spanish).

Ahh so you are one of those who only see value in the program you personally like and want to slash the rest. Pass.

No. My kids are not in immersion but I recognize the value not just to EL students but to society as a whole of having more dual language speakers.

Not many kids actually become fluent. There is a huge drop off in middle school immersion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Doesn’t one of the main posters send their kid to a high school program that they’re not zoned for?

Yes, but I think that was part of the complaint, that the program is overwhelmingly white. So parents taking advantage of the choices aren’t contributing positively to SES diversity. That said, we completed an application for said program even though we were pretty sure our DC wanted to stay in the zoned HS, and it was a barrier in my mind. They required an essay, as does Arl Tech, and that alone made it seem “exclusive,” and not just a lottery not based on “merit.” So it’s not a real surprise to me that it’s attracting a certain type of family/student, ones who aren’t intimidated by the barrier.

But these programs are not designed specifically for SES diversity. It would be one thing if that is how they were designed/marketed, but... they aren't. More change needed of course.

Sure, but I think the point is if it’s not contributing it might be harming, and that’s not great. I don’t agree that this is the case at the ES level, because walkable ES boundaries just cannot make desegregated schools at this level, even if you remove all the option schools. You’d just be shuffling the segregation to an alternate school. And the policies in place, to a large degree, have kept the option ES a fairly close reflection of the overall APS demographic.

But the option programs at the MS and HS level are not reflective of the APS demographic and that feels wrong to me, and to the poster. Seems like a policy issue here, and one that’s solvable.

Yes and no. Admissions policies could potentially require %s of male/female; %sED; etc. But if academic preparedness and learning style and subject-matter passion aren't aligned, no such student should be admitted to a program designed for those things. And if an option program is not designed for those things, then it shouldn't be an option - because it's really not a unique program. The whole purpose of an alternative instructional model is to address the different learning styles of students. Not to give families options for the sake of having options or to create schools of specific demographics.

The real solution is to address education at the elementary and middle school levels and eliminate achievement gaps so that students from all backgrounds are (1) prepared for a specific program and (2) have more interest in such programs. In conjunction, admission policies such as "x" number of slots available for students from each elementary or middle school (like HBW admissions) help; but fuller admission policies that include demographics like I mentioned above would produce much better diversity results.

Correct, but how? If you know the answer, AND how you can get the community to buy in to implement the how when it seems like their precious snowflakes might not have each and every advantage all for themselves, in all sincerity you should be in charge.

APS needs to lead. Sometimes you lead and people eventually follow, rather than never leading and waiting for 100% "buy-in." That's the dog wagging the tail rather than the tail wagging the dog. I don't believe implementing a new way would actually be the ruin of APS. People will flee but ultimately the system would be accepted. There's almost always a period of transition when major change takes place. Like the CT school that eliminated cell phones during the school day. They LED! They made a sound policy choice in the best interest of student learning and took the attitude that people will just have to adjust and deal with it. THAT's leadership because they also took concerns into consideration and calmly respond and bring people aboard AFTERward. They had faith they were doing the right thing and trusted it to work out. APS "leadership" doesn't have that trust in its students or its community.

[Anonymous]

Over the past decade, every boundary change at the ES, MS, HS levels, and every option program move towards full independence has only exacerbated demographic segregation among the county’s schools. And now the new boundary policy deprecates or discards demographic criteria. Moreover, in the current legal climate, that is the safe route with the least potential for conflict.

I think this is why some people have thrown up their hands and would rather eliminate neighborhood schools and move to ranked choice model for all schools. A lottery model.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I didn't comment in that thread, but I've looked at these data before and there is a very strong relationship between school poverty level and the % of families who opt out. The reality is that APS is happy to have a bunch of schools that are 40% or more free and reduced lunch, and the families zoned for those schools apply for option schools at a much higher rate.

Does that make them racist? I don't think so. Data show when a school goes above 40% or more FARMS outcomes suffer. The real issue is that Arlington is all about concentrating poverty and doesn't really care how it affects schools.

I don't really what the point JF is trying to make, that wasn't clear to me. Does he want to kill option programs? Or is he just pointing out that parents behave in this way? I know his wife teaches at a low income school and he thinks people are dumb to avoid it because it's a good school.

APS has basically said they are not going to consider this in any boundary decisions, and they pretty much always make the FARMS disparities worse in every single boundary decision. I can't see options schools going away, personally.

But I do think it's ridiculous that Arlington has such huge disparities.

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS!!!!!!!

JF seems unwilling to make his point clear. People are drawing their own varying interpretations. Mine is that, yes, he's suggesting the elimination of option programs as a cost savings measure because his singular first, top, main priority is teacher raises. Period. First of all, if he had managed to retain his VLP option for his kid, he wouldn't be making this suggestion because it would be hypocritical and eliminate up an option he exercised for his kid. Second of all, he's making a vague insinuation without providing any information or data to support it. Everyone knows more people from south arlington/high FRL/high ELL schools are most of the people seeking options. The only data he's provided only speaks to that and not to anything else -- and he's not saying anything else, therefore providing no other data or info.

I know he's fought hard for positive things and has devoted tremendous time and energy. But I, for one, have had enough of him; and I had my fill before his recent coy approach. He never hesitated to clearly state his point before - so why now?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.

Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.

Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.

It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.

Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.

What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?

A district I used to work for does this now. It seems to work well and many people get a school they rank highly https://schoolchoice.dpsk12.org/o/schoolchoice/page/about

But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)

But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I didn't comment in that thread, but I've looked at these data before and there is a very strong relationship between school poverty level and the % of families who opt out. The reality is that APS is happy to have a bunch of schools that are 40% or more free and reduced lunch, and the families zoned for those schools apply for option schools at a much higher rate.

Does that make them racist? I don't think so. Data show when a school goes above 40% or more FARMS outcomes suffer. The real issue is that Arlington is all about concentrating poverty and doesn't really care how it affects schools.

I don't really what the point JF is trying to make, that wasn't clear to me. Does he want to kill option programs? Or is he just pointing out that parents behave in this way? I know his wife teaches at a low income school and he thinks people are dumb to avoid it because it's a good school.

APS has basically said they are not going to consider this in any boundary decisions, and they pretty much always make the FARMS disparities worse in every single boundary decision. I can't see options schools going away, personally.

But I do think it's ridiculous that Arlington has such huge disparities.

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS!!!!!!!

JF seems unwilling to make his point clear. People are drawing their own varying interpretations. Mine is that, yes, he's suggesting the elimination of option programs as a cost savings measure because his singular first, top, main priority is teacher raises. Period. First of all, if he had managed to retain his VLP option for his kid, he wouldn't be making this suggestion because it would be hypocritical and eliminate up an option he exercised for his kid. Second of all, he's making a vague insinuation without providing any information or data to support it. Everyone knows more people from south arlington/high FRL/high ELL schools are most of the people seeking options. The only data he's provided only speaks to that and not to anything else -- and he's not saying anything else, therefore providing no other data or info.

I know he's fought hard for positive things and has devoted tremendous time and energy. But I, for one, have had enough of him; and I had my fill before his recent coy approach. He never hesitated to clearly state his point before - so why now?

I’m done with it too. If he wants to argue based on cost, fine but we need to see real numbers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ok, so ranked choice…

You realize (even more) people who can afford it will flee to private schools, right? And what happens then? I don’t think you’ll get the outcomes you’re hoping for.

People keep saying that being around well-resourced kids has a positive effect on the rest of the student body. What happens when they all leave?

First of all, not all of them will leave. It's not like the system would put individual wealthy kids in Randolph's current demographic mix. There would be a lot more schools in the middle demographically speaking (similar to some of our option school demographics), still doing quite well. Meanwhile, the boost in diversity and resources to Drew and Barcroft etc. start raising those schools' profiles and they become less "lethal" to send your kid to. I don't think the absence of the ones who flee will make as significant a difference as you think it would.

Second of all, people shouldn't expect instant perfection in the results. It's a process. The problem - and most likely cause for failure - would be APS pulling out of the decision too soon. If APS is willing to tolerate the decline in educational quality they've been propogating these past several years, they should be willing to stick out some challenges as they establish more balance across the district.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I didn't comment in that thread, but I've looked at these data before and there is a very strong relationship between school poverty level and the % of families who opt out. The reality is that APS is happy to have a bunch of schools that are 40% or more free and reduced lunch, and the families zoned for those schools apply for option schools at a much higher rate.

Does that make them racist? I don't think so. Data show when a school goes above 40% or more FARMS outcomes suffer. The real issue is that Arlington is all about concentrating poverty and doesn't really care how it affects schools.

I don't really what the point JF is trying to make, that wasn't clear to me. Does he want to kill option programs? Or is he just pointing out that parents behave in this way? I know his wife teaches at a low income school and he thinks people are dumb to avoid it because it's a good school.

APS has basically said they are not going to consider this in any boundary decisions, and they pretty much always make the FARMS disparities worse in every single boundary decision. I can't see options schools going away, personally.

But I do think it's ridiculous that Arlington has such huge disparities.

Best response, and you know why? Because you are one of very few people who realize the word ‘data’ is plural. 😁

Not when it's looked at as a "set" of information.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think AEM teacher is setting himself for a school board run once he retires, like Paul. There’s no reason to speak at every school board meeting otherwise. He’s just run out of topics, so let’s just “suggest” that option schools end?

Hopefully he’s better at that because he’s not a great teacher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok, so ranked choice…

You realize (even more) people who can afford it will flee to private schools, right? And what happens then? I don’t think you’ll get the outcomes you’re hoping for.

People keep saying that being around well-resourced kids has a positive effect on the rest of the student body. What happens when they all leave?

Or maybe more would stay

Sure. You saw how Nottingham mommies behaved when they thought they might have to — gasp! — move to Jamestown!

You can structure rank choice in a way where people in walkzones get priority/guaranteed attendance

Geography is a consideration; but not a guarantee. If you guaranteed it, we'd have exactly what we have now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I didn't comment in that thread, but I've looked at these data before and there is a very strong relationship between school poverty level and the % of families who opt out. The reality is that APS is happy to have a bunch of schools that are 40% or more free and reduced lunch, and the families zoned for those schools apply for option schools at a much higher rate.

Does that make them racist? I don't think so. Data show when a school goes above 40% or more FARMS outcomes suffer. The real issue is that Arlington is all about concentrating poverty and doesn't really care how it affects schools.

I don't really what the point JF is trying to make, that wasn't clear to me. Does he want to kill option programs? Or is he just pointing out that parents behave in this way? I know his wife teaches at a low income school and he thinks people are dumb to avoid it because it's a good school.

APS has basically said they are not going to consider this in any boundary decisions, and they pretty much always make the FARMS disparities worse in every single boundary decision. I can't see options schools going away, personally.

But I do think it's ridiculous that Arlington has such huge disparities.

With the last boundary policy update, demographics will no longer factor into the criteria. Feeder alignment and proximity are the criteria that will compete for attention. Community input will also be limited unlike in the recent past, where the debates often got ugly.

Interesting, so why isn't teacher budget guy talking about THAT?

Because he doesn't get it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I didn't comment in that thread, but I've looked at these data before and there is a very strong relationship between school poverty level and the % of families who opt out. The reality is that APS is happy to have a bunch of schools that are 40% or more free and reduced lunch, and the families zoned for those schools apply for option schools at a much higher rate.

Does that make them racist? I don't think so. Data show when a school goes above 40% or more FARMS outcomes suffer. The real issue is that Arlington is all about concentrating poverty and doesn't really care how it affects schools.

I don't really what the point JF is trying to make, that wasn't clear to me. Does he want to kill option programs? Or is he just pointing out that parents behave in this way? I know his wife teaches at a low income school and he thinks people are dumb to avoid it because it's a good school.

APS has basically said they are not going to consider this in any boundary decisions, and they pretty much always make the FARMS disparities worse in every single boundary decision. I can't see options schools going away, personally.

But I do think it's ridiculous that Arlington has such huge disparities.

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS!!!!!!!

JF seems unwilling to make his point clear. People are drawing their own varying interpretations. Mine is that, yes, he's suggesting the elimination of option programs as a cost savings measure because his singular first, top, main priority is teacher raises. Period. First of all, if he had managed to retain his VLP option for his kid, he wouldn't be making this suggestion because it would be hypocritical and eliminate up an option he exercised for his kid. Second of all, he's making a vague insinuation without providing any information or data to support it. Everyone knows more people from south arlington/high FRL/high ELL schools are most of the people seeking options. The only data he's provided only speaks to that and not to anything else -- and he's not saying anything else, therefore providing no other data or info.

I know he's fought hard for positive things and has devoted tremendous time and energy. But I, for one, have had enough of him; and I had my fill before his recent coy approach. He never hesitated to clearly state his point before - so why now?

Because JF knows that staying ambiguous will start the conversation with people taking sides. He intended for the thread to be controversial and now he can back away saying that he truly did not say anything. Because he didn’t. I feel like he’s playing us all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He named his link to the data "[his name] is probably wrong." I took it as a conversation starter, and it did seem to start a conversation.

Is he responding to comments?

No, which I find so annoying. If he’s going to be posting this stuff then he should at least explain and defend his view. I don’t understand that other person who keeps posting and defending him and trying to say “what I think he means is xyz…”

I chose an option school to avoid my neighborhood school and it’s not because I’m racist. I’m not white. It’s because my neighborhood score has low academic standards, behavioral issues, etc. If my neighborhood school had the same demographics but had a curriculum and expectations more like ATS I would not have left!

Agreed! He doesn't want to be the one to say it. My impression is he wants to stir up the pot and get conversation going among other people and let them take the heat. He's succeeding.