Anonymous wrote:As a minority of middle eastern origin I find it extremely offensive that schools such as Carlin Springs is considered more diverse than ATS, where my kids go. The only way Carlin Springs is more diverse than ATS is if you lump all non-white students together. It is extremely racist to believe that all non-white students are the same and that the only diversity that matters is white vs. non-white. Ethnically speaking, a white person is just as different from a person of Middle Eastern origin than a hispanic person is. Carlin Springs isn't diverse. It is 73% hispanic. This means that three quarters of the school is from one race/ethnicity. How on earth is that diverse? Arlington Traditional School is more equally divided between different races and 9% of the school is from multiple races. The Black population, 20%, is diverse in and of itself. We have Ethiopians, African Americans, Eritrians, and Nigerians, just to name a few. Same with the 27% of Asian students who come from all over the vast continent of Asia. We have students with origins from Azerbeijan, Mongolia, China, India, Pakistan, Kazakhestan. I mean the list goes on. 24 different languages are spoken at ATS. How many different languages are spoken in Carlin Springs? I am really sick and tired of this narrow definition of diversity. It is a racist definition given to us by white people who think that we are all the same. Disgusting.
Everything this person said. Plus 1000.
I also think there are white people in positions of power who claim this is "diversity" so that they can maintain the racist status quo.
This whole convo is racist, the people driving it are white people who couldn't afford N Arlington so their kids are in S Arlington schools with (gasp!) majority black/brown. They would feel a lot more comfortable if there were more white kids to keep their white kids company. So their solutionis to kill the option schools to get more of their white neighbors to stay in the neighborhood schools. That's all it is, they claim to be social justice warriors but it's racist and self interested. What really gets me is they attack others for their ethics.
The ethics of doing anything you can to buy a house in north Arlington specifically to avoid the south Arlington schools? Those ethics? The ones that aren't so obvious and can be shaded over with claims of "commute, walkability, didn't want a fixer-upper" etc? Those ethics?
SA resident here, and I think it’s ridiculous to say that NA residents bought their homes *specifically* to avoid SA schools. There are many things about NA neighborhoods that are appealing.
And it totally ignores the fact that many CHILDLESS couples buy homes in NA.
You, my friend, are reaching. And kinda dumb.
The price differences are massive, though--hundreds of thousands of dollars--for houses that are similar in size, age, lot, condition, etc--whether you are talking about old stock or brand new builds. The locations are not that different in terms of proximity to metro, highways, DC or Fairfax, etc. What is different? Neighborhood/school demographics.
The 1.3 mil Douglass Park house is relatively old. Here’s a pretty house in 22201 for quite a bit less within walking distance to the Apple Store. And it has nothing to do with school demographics.
Also, you have to factor in how densely populated the surrounding area is. Parks (and schools) located in areas with tons of high rises are going to offer a different experience than parks (and schools) where everyone is more spread out.
Sometimes it’s not the color of everyone’s skin, but sheer number of bodies.
Nothing like the Aurora Hills splash pad being like a most pit in the summer because it’s super crowded!
Huh? No. It’s the schools. That’s why realtors steer, that’s why real estate sites include school scores prominently, and it’s why agents are sure to talk about NORTH Arlington, as if it’s a separate place from the rest of Arlington. It is a separate place, by design.
I thought N Arlington was created back when it was mostly all farms. The post office wanted the county to come up with a street naming system, hence the N and the S. So it has nothing to do with “rich vs poor.”
I think other factors are at play that determine house prices: quality of the build, historic charm, tree canopy, Metro rail, cute shops and cafes (like in Westover), the reputation of the neighborhood, i.e., is it posh. None of those have to do with schools. Arlington Ridge is quite posh and along the southern edge of S Arlington.
Rt 50 is more of a psychological distractor. I personally would like Buttigieg to direct some of his freeway removal funds to eliminating Rt 50. It’s unnecessary and it divides neighborhoods.
What are you even talking about? Sure, being “posh” has nothing to do with poor people being kept out of that “posh” area. And when poor people are largely minority, again, by design, through a system of racist housing and bank lending policies, it’s really about tree canopy. WTF
The SFH neighborhoods in Arlington, N and S, if you get off the main roads, are really lovely. They have comparable parks and trees, too. It’s the higher density areas, more common in S, that have lower tree canopy. But if you compare apples to apples where house age, size, repair, etc. are similar, there’s still a premium for houses in areas with “good schools.” So, maybe people are trying to be in leafier “posher” areas for that, but it’s all part of the same system. It was designed and it operates the way it was intended.
The comment was in response to N Arlington being “a separate place by design” as claimed by the previous poster, which is not true.
I personally don’t see how schools affect housing prices in such a small county where people move for its charming, family-friendly neighborhoods and convenience. But families here do love their walkable neighborhood schools. I’m no realtor so I’ll give you some benefit of the doubt regarding the schools’ affect on home prices in Arlington.
Since there are neighborhood transfers and option programs through high school, APS students have multiple pathways. Kind of like DC with all its top-notch charter schools where I don’t think a house in the J-R/Wilson pyramid sells at a premium over a large rowhouse on Capitol Hill because of the assigned schools.
WTF--north Arlington is absolutely a separate place by design. THE SCHOOLS AND NEIGHBORHOODS WERE LEGALLY SEGREGATED. Halls Hill and Nauck/Green Valley were the only places where black people could own property. Lots in those neighborhood are very small because they have been subdivided many times to the minimum lot size because it was the only way black people could buy. The schools serving those neighborhoods (Drew, Hoffman-Boston, Gunston) were the original segregated schools and until recently were still majority black.
Similarly, the neighborhoods closer to the Pentagon--along Columbia Pike, on the south side of Route 50, Fairlington, etc.--were all built as apartments in the 1930s and 1940s as high density housing for the war effort and then for the returning soldiers/early Boomer generation. That is all older/affordable condos (not usually families) or low-income rentals now (for low-income families) and is not going to change. The zoning decisions for the high-density Metro corridors was made in the 1970s and at that time explicit decisions were made about what would be high-density, medium-density, and low-density to preserve SFH neighborhoods just a few blocks from the Metro (see--Lyon Park, Lyon Village, Bluemont, Westover, etc.) around the orange line versus the decisions made about the neighborhoods around the Yellow/Blue line and Crystal City/Pentagon City.
STFU about the differences in north Arlington/south Arlington not being by design. As people keep saying, it is the continuing effect of racist and segregationist housing, school, and zoning policies. The school policies could be undone by making the three high schools, at least, all countywide through some system, and maybe the five middle schools, and by greatly expanding the elementary boundaries to have four or five grouped choice zones with a traditional/Montessori/immersion/science focus/arts focus/outdoor focus cluster in each quaarant of the county. Or some other model that would loosen the tight hold that the traditional boundaries have on APS.
Oooo! Dangerous territory here. This is what ended Tara Nattrass' relationship with APS!
If you put those options in each quadrant you’ll have waaaay less diversity. For example, all the white/higher income N Arlington kids who go to Gunston & Wakefield for immersion will just go to the immersion school closer to home. Without cross county movement to option programs, segregation is much more pronounced.
Transportation also becomes a major problem. APS struggles with transportation now even when trying to keep kids walkable. I don't know how they'd manage any option where they'd have to move more kids.
I actually think it would be easier. Have a hub and spoke transportation model. One bus picks up all the kids in a neighborhood, brings them to a central bus depot and then buses go from there to all the choice programs.
What about utilizing and enhancing our excellent ART, Metrobus, and Metrorail systems instead of complex school bus schemes? Students in DC are expected to use public transport.
When our excellent bus and rail system is able to get students to and from school and to and from activities in a timely manner, absolutely. We live 2 miles from our neighborhood high school (just eligible for school busing). I looked into it and if my kid took ART/Metro, it would require 2 transfers and at least 45 minutes IF the buses all showed up and all ran on time. And even that did not line up well with the start and end times of the school day.
my kids would have to cross a really dangerous main road without a safe place to cross in order to get on the ART bus. So no thanks to that.
How old are your kids? I don't think people are proposing elementary students take Metro on their own.
If older, surely there is a way - might be a little longer - for your kids to get to a crossing place and get to a bus stop.
No there really isn’t.
So no crosswalks anywhere along the entire dangerous main road? No children can leave your neighborhood on their own?
Maybe they can get on the ART bus on your side of the street, take it to the next traffic light and crosswalk, and get back on the bus on the other side to head in the right direction.
Are you really that unfamiliar with all the problems with the "walkability" of Arlington? No there are no nearby safe crossings. Yes there are crosswalks but they are not safe without lights. I don't cross them myself as an adult, it's not an age thing, it's just a safety thing.
And listen to yourself - you want my kids to take the bus in the opposite direction until they get to a traffic light and then get off and take the bus back the other way?
No, I don't. I want the County and APS to figure out routes and a system that efficiently and effectively gets students where they need to go, when they need to go there. And yes, I am quite familiar with unsafe crossings, even crosswalks. Live near a number of them myself. But everyone thinks their situation is the most dangerous of any and the the worst ever and therefore are quick to say nope, no way without considering being open to options.
Anonymous wrote:The only thing JF cares about is his own family. It was the VLP for his kid, now it’s pay for him and his wife, also an APS teacher. It’s fine to do what you think is right for your own family, but don’t be disingenuous about your motivations. And don’t pretend you’re more ethical than the rest of us.
And have the guts to engage on your points instead of just inserting vague insinuations in a public speech to elected officials and letting everyone else go at it. Something more than "Let's have coffee, DM me" to select individuals with a narrow aspect of the topic he wants to focus on.
Know why he does this, right? Because he knows SQUAT about anything but local school district salary charts.
I found that to be supremely obnoxious. Nooooo, can’t discuss it in the open where the conversation he started is taking place. Gotta pick and choose the select recipients of his informational largesse. Barf.
I don't have the guts, but I sure wish someone would reply under that by asking one of them to share their conversation highlights afterward.
Anonymous wrote:The only thing JF cares about is his own family. It was the VLP for his kid, now it’s pay for him and his wife, also an APS teacher. It’s fine to do what you think is right for your own family, but don’t be disingenuous about your motivations. And don’t pretend you’re more ethical than the rest of us.
And have the guts to engage on your points instead of just inserting vague insinuations in a public speech to elected officials and letting everyone else go at it. Something more than "Let's have coffee, DM me" to select individuals with a narrow aspect of the topic he wants to focus on.
Know why he does this, right? Because he knows SQUAT about anything but local school district salary charts.
I found that to be supremely obnoxious. Nooooo, can’t discuss it in the open where the conversation he started is taking place. Gotta pick and choose the select recipients of his informational largesse. Barf.
Right who does he think he is? He's not as important as he thinks he is, why would I waste my time having coffee with some self-important random teacher/parent who thinks I'm unethical for my choices?
Anonymous wrote:As a minority of middle eastern origin I find it extremely offensive that schools such as Carlin Springs is considered more diverse than ATS, where my kids go. The only way Carlin Springs is more diverse than ATS is if you lump all non-white students together. It is extremely racist to believe that all non-white students are the same and that the only diversity that matters is white vs. non-white. Ethnically speaking, a white person is just as different from a person of Middle Eastern origin than a hispanic person is. Carlin Springs isn't diverse. It is 73% hispanic. This means that three quarters of the school is from one race/ethnicity. How on earth is that diverse? Arlington Traditional School is more equally divided between different races and 9% of the school is from multiple races. The Black population, 20%, is diverse in and of itself. We have Ethiopians, African Americans, Eritrians, and Nigerians, just to name a few. Same with the 27% of Asian students who come from all over the vast continent of Asia. We have students with origins from Azerbeijan, Mongolia, China, India, Pakistan, Kazakhestan. I mean the list goes on. 24 different languages are spoken at ATS. How many different languages are spoken in Carlin Springs? I am really sick and tired of this narrow definition of diversity. It is a racist definition given to us by white people who think that we are all the same. Disgusting.
Everything this person said. Plus 1000.
I also think there are white people in positions of power who claim this is "diversity" so that they can maintain the racist status quo.
This whole convo is racist, the people driving it are white people who couldn't afford N Arlington so their kids are in S Arlington schools with (gasp!) majority black/brown. They would feel a lot more comfortable if there were more white kids to keep their white kids company. So their solutionis to kill the option schools to get more of their white neighbors to stay in the neighborhood schools. That's all it is, they claim to be social justice warriors but it's racist and self interested. What really gets me is they attack others for their ethics.
The ethics of doing anything you can to buy a house in north Arlington specifically to avoid the south Arlington schools? Those ethics? The ones that aren't so obvious and can be shaded over with claims of "commute, walkability, didn't want a fixer-upper" etc? Those ethics?
SA resident here, and I think it’s ridiculous to say that NA residents bought their homes *specifically* to avoid SA schools. There are many things about NA neighborhoods that are appealing.
And it totally ignores the fact that many CHILDLESS couples buy homes in NA.
You, my friend, are reaching. And kinda dumb.
The price differences are massive, though--hundreds of thousands of dollars--for houses that are similar in size, age, lot, condition, etc--whether you are talking about old stock or brand new builds. The locations are not that different in terms of proximity to metro, highways, DC or Fairfax, etc. What is different? Neighborhood/school demographics.
The 1.3 mil Douglass Park house is relatively old. Here’s a pretty house in 22201 for quite a bit less within walking distance to the Apple Store. And it has nothing to do with school demographics.
Also, you have to factor in how densely populated the surrounding area is. Parks (and schools) located in areas with tons of high rises are going to offer a different experience than parks (and schools) where everyone is more spread out.
Sometimes it’s not the color of everyone’s skin, but sheer number of bodies.
Nothing like the Aurora Hills splash pad being like a most pit in the summer because it’s super crowded!
Huh? No. It’s the schools. That’s why realtors steer, that’s why real estate sites include school scores prominently, and it’s why agents are sure to talk about NORTH Arlington, as if it’s a separate place from the rest of Arlington. It is a separate place, by design.
I thought N Arlington was created back when it was mostly all farms. The post office wanted the county to come up with a street naming system, hence the N and the S. So it has nothing to do with “rich vs poor.”
I think other factors are at play that determine house prices: quality of the build, historic charm, tree canopy, Metro rail, cute shops and cafes (like in Westover), the reputation of the neighborhood, i.e., is it posh. None of those have to do with schools. Arlington Ridge is quite posh and along the southern edge of S Arlington.
Rt 50 is more of a psychological distractor. I personally would like Buttigieg to direct some of his freeway removal funds to eliminating Rt 50. It’s unnecessary and it divides neighborhoods.
What are you even talking about? Sure, being “posh” has nothing to do with poor people being kept out of that “posh” area. And when poor people are largely minority, again, by design, through a system of racist housing and bank lending policies, it’s really about tree canopy. WTF
The SFH neighborhoods in Arlington, N and S, if you get off the main roads, are really lovely. They have comparable parks and trees, too. It’s the higher density areas, more common in S, that have lower tree canopy. But if you compare apples to apples where house age, size, repair, etc. are similar, there’s still a premium for houses in areas with “good schools.” So, maybe people are trying to be in leafier “posher” areas for that, but it’s all part of the same system. It was designed and it operates the way it was intended.
The comment was in response to N Arlington being “a separate place by design” as claimed by the previous poster, which is not true.
I personally don’t see how schools affect housing prices in such a small county where people move for its charming, family-friendly neighborhoods and convenience. But families here do love their walkable neighborhood schools. I’m no realtor so I’ll give you some benefit of the doubt regarding the schools’ affect on home prices in Arlington.
Since there are neighborhood transfers and option programs through high school, APS students have multiple pathways. Kind of like DC with all its top-notch charter schools where I don’t think a house in the J-R/Wilson pyramid sells at a premium over a large rowhouse on Capitol Hill because of the assigned schools.
WTF--north Arlington is absolutely a separate place by design. THE SCHOOLS AND NEIGHBORHOODS WERE LEGALLY SEGREGATED. Halls Hill and Nauck/Green Valley were the only places where black people could own property. Lots in those neighborhood are very small because they have been subdivided many times to the minimum lot size because it was the only way black people could buy. The schools serving those neighborhoods (Drew, Hoffman-Boston, Gunston) were the original segregated schools and until recently were still majority black.
Similarly, the neighborhoods closer to the Pentagon--along Columbia Pike, on the south side of Route 50, Fairlington, etc.--were all built as apartments in the 1930s and 1940s as high density housing for the war effort and then for the returning soldiers/early Boomer generation. That is all older/affordable condos (not usually families) or low-income rentals now (for low-income families) and is not going to change. The zoning decisions for the high-density Metro corridors was made in the 1970s and at that time explicit decisions were made about what would be high-density, medium-density, and low-density to preserve SFH neighborhoods just a few blocks from the Metro (see--Lyon Park, Lyon Village, Bluemont, Westover, etc.) around the orange line versus the decisions made about the neighborhoods around the Yellow/Blue line and Crystal City/Pentagon City.
STFU about the differences in north Arlington/south Arlington not being by design. As people keep saying, it is the continuing effect of racist and segregationist housing, school, and zoning policies. The school policies could be undone by making the three high schools, at least, all countywide through some system, and maybe the five middle schools, and by greatly expanding the elementary boundaries to have four or five grouped choice zones with a traditional/Montessori/immersion/science focus/arts focus/outdoor focus cluster in each quaarant of the county. Or some other model that would loosen the tight hold that the traditional boundaries have on APS.
Oooo! Dangerous territory here. This is what ended Tara Nattrass' relationship with APS!
If you put those options in each quadrant you’ll have waaaay less diversity. For example, all the white/higher income N Arlington kids who go to Gunston & Wakefield for immersion will just go to the immersion school closer to home. Without cross county movement to option programs, segregation is much more pronounced.
Transportation also becomes a major problem. APS struggles with transportation now even when trying to keep kids walkable. I don't know how they'd manage any option where they'd have to move more kids.
I actually think it would be easier. Have a hub and spoke transportation model. One bus picks up all the kids in a neighborhood, brings them to a central bus depot and then buses go from there to all the choice programs.
What about utilizing and enhancing our excellent ART, Metrobus, and Metrorail systems instead of complex school bus schemes? Students in DC are expected to use public transport.
When our excellent bus and rail system is able to get students to and from school and to and from activities in a timely manner, absolutely. We live 2 miles from our neighborhood high school (just eligible for school busing). I looked into it and if my kid took ART/Metro, it would require 2 transfers and at least 45 minutes IF the buses all showed up and all ran on time. And even that did not line up well with the start and end times of the school day.
my kids would have to cross a really dangerous main road without a safe place to cross in order to get on the ART bus. So no thanks to that.
How old are your kids? I don't think people are proposing elementary students take Metro on their own.
If older, surely there is a way - might be a little longer - for your kids to get to a crossing place and get to a bus stop.
No there really isn’t.
So no crosswalks anywhere along the entire dangerous main road? No children can leave your neighborhood on their own?
Maybe they can get on the ART bus on your side of the street, take it to the next traffic light and crosswalk, and get back on the bus on the other side to head in the right direction.
Are you really that unfamiliar with all the problems with the "walkability" of Arlington? No there are no nearby safe crossings. Yes there are crosswalks but they are not safe without lights. I don't cross them myself as an adult, it's not an age thing, it's just a safety thing.
And listen to yourself - you want my kids to take the bus in the opposite direction until they get to a traffic light and then get off and take the bus back the other way?
No, I don't. I want the County and APS to figure out routes and a system that efficiently and effectively gets students where they need to go, when they need to go there. And yes, I am quite familiar with unsafe crossings, even crosswalks. Live near a number of them myself. But everyone thinks their situation is the most dangerous of any and the the worst ever and therefore are quick to say nope, no way without considering being open to options.
Look I'm one of those who has been posting in favor of system wide choice. But I'm not willing to risk my kids lives over it, so you're going to have to do better than tell me to make them cross an unsafe major road during rush hour daily.
Anonymous wrote:The only thing JF cares about is his own family. It was the VLP for his kid, now it’s pay for him and his wife, also an APS teacher. It’s fine to do what you think is right for your own family, but don’t be disingenuous about your motivations. And don’t pretend you’re more ethical than the rest of us.
And have the guts to engage on your points instead of just inserting vague insinuations in a public speech to elected officials and letting everyone else go at it. Something more than "Let's have coffee, DM me" to select individuals with a narrow aspect of the topic he wants to focus on.
Know why he does this, right? Because he knows SQUAT about anything but local school district salary charts.
I found that to be supremely obnoxious. Nooooo, can’t discuss it in the open where the conversation he started is taking place. Gotta pick and choose the select recipients of his informational largesse. Barf.
Right who does he think he is? He's not as important as he thinks he is, why would I waste my time having coffee with some self-important random teacher/parent who thinks I'm unethical for my choices?
I can’t help but wonder — what if he was my child’s teacher?! He is such a goon. Stirring the pot then being too much of a coward to respond.
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