AEM post/discussion re racism and choice schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.

Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.

Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.

It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.

Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.

What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?

A district I used to work for does this now. It seems to work well and many people get a school they rank highly https://schoolchoice.dpsk12.org/o/schoolchoice/page/about

But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)

But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.

Yeah, well, “everyone gets a school near the top of their list” is a farce then. Forcing families into Drew/Randolph/wherever would only result in more families going private.

I never said everyone gets a school near the top of their list. NEvertheless, in the Cambridge MA model, the vast majority of people get their #1 or #2 choice. That means the rest do not. But this model isn't only based on the preferences parents list. It includes male/female ratios, geographic proximity, and economic status.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My takeaway is that if you have enough money to buy a house in the wealthiest zip codes, you never have to worry about being called racist.

You think so? I think it's more that you isolate yourself so much that you don't hear the people who call you racist because they aren't your fellow "flee from the south arlington schools" people. If you were to be a fly in south Arlington conversations, you would hear the racist accusations toward those wealthiest zip coders.

This is so dumb to me. I live in N Arlington because both DH and I had jobs right along I-66/orange line corridor. South Arlington would not work for our commutes.

Real nice community you have in the south part of the county talking crap about people in different zip codes. FWIW I’ve never heard anyone in the North part of the county say bad things about the people living in the south part.

This is hysterical.
The commute wouldn't work for you, but it works for egads of people in south Arlington? Where do you work? It might not be as straightforward a commute; but surely it would "work" because you're capable of figuring out how to make it work just like thousands of other people.
You either don't hear northern residents bad-mouthing the southies because y'all don't bother to talk about south arlington - since it's a separate world from yours; or you just aren't interacting with the ones who do. Not all southies think all northies are racist a-holes and not all northies think all southies are ignorant homeless criminals. But if your commute from south Arlington would have worked for you, I'm sure you would have been equally happy to attend Carlin Springs or Randolph.

You’re not worth talking about

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My takeaway is that if you have enough money to buy a house in the wealthiest zip codes, you never have to worry about being called racist.

You think so? I think it's more that you isolate yourself so much that you don't hear the people who call you racist because they aren't your fellow "flee from the south arlington schools" people. If you were to be a fly in south Arlington conversations, you would hear the racist accusations toward those wealthiest zip coders.

This is so dumb to me. I live in N Arlington because both DH and I had jobs right along I-66/orange line corridor. South Arlington would not work for our commutes.

Real nice community you have in the south part of the county talking crap about people in different zip codes. FWIW I’ve never heard anyone in the North part of the county say bad things about the people living in the south part.

This is hysterical.
The commute wouldn't work for you, but it works for egads of people in south Arlington? Where do you work? It might not be as straightforward a commute; but surely it would "work" because you're capable of figuring out how to make it work just like thousands of other people.
You either don't hear northern residents bad-mouthing the southies because y'all don't bother to talk about south arlington - since it's a separate world from yours; or you just aren't interacting with the ones who do. Not all southies think all northies are racist a-holes and not all northies think all southies are ignorant homeless criminals. But if your commute from south Arlington would have worked for you, I'm sure you would have been equally happy to attend Carlin Springs or Randolph.

You’re not worth talking about

Ah, see!? You do exist!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I didn't comment in that thread, but I've looked at these data before and there is a very strong relationship between school poverty level and the % of families who opt out. The reality is that APS is happy to have a bunch of schools that are 40% or more free and reduced lunch, and the families zoned for those schools apply for option schools at a much higher rate.

Does that make them racist? I don't think so. Data show when a school goes above 40% or more FARMS outcomes suffer. The real issue is that Arlington is all about concentrating poverty and doesn't really care how it affects schools.

I don't really what the point JF is trying to make, that wasn't clear to me. Does he want to kill option programs? Or is he just pointing out that parents behave in this way? I know his wife teaches at a low income school and he thinks people are dumb to avoid it because it's a good school.

APS has basically said they are not going to consider this in any boundary decisions, and they pretty much always make the FARMS disparities worse in every single boundary decision. I can't see options schools going away, personally.

But I do think it's ridiculous that Arlington has such huge disparities.

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS!!!!!!!

JF seems unwilling to make his point clear. People are drawing their own varying interpretations. Mine is that, yes, he's suggesting the elimination of option programs as a cost savings measure because his singular first, top, main priority is teacher raises. Period. First of all, if he had managed to retain his VLP option for his kid, he wouldn't be making this suggestion because it would be hypocritical and eliminate up an option he exercised for his kid. Second of all, he's making a vague insinuation without providing any information or data to support it. Everyone knows more people from south arlington/high FRL/high ELL schools are most of the people seeking options. The only data he's provided only speaks to that and not to anything else -- and he's not saying anything else, therefore providing no other data or info.

I know he's fought hard for positive things and has devoted tremendous time and energy. But I, for one, have had enough of him; and I had my fill before his recent coy approach. He never hesitated to clearly state his point before - so why now?

Because JF knows that staying ambiguous will start the conversation with people taking sides. He intended for the thread to be controversial and now he can back away saying that he truly did not say anything. Because he didn’t. I feel like he’s playing us all.

Completely agree. He just happened to toss this out there with no clear message and then watches the usual suspects take their usual positions. I’m not suggesting he hasn’t had good intentions and motivations in the past – he absolutely has. But even to just appear to take aim at all option programs a short while after passionately advocating for the continuation of an ineffective and underenrolled option program seems to be questionably motivated at best.

Meh.

[Anonymous]

I read that post and as expected the echo chamber called all option and private parents in South Arlington racist.

It’s not racist to want to avoid a 70% ESL and FRL/ poverty school. I owe a duty to my child and need to make sure they get educated.

Yes I have choices and I am going to exercise them. As someone posted earlier every single boundary decision has made things worse! But sure keep blaming parents just trying to do right by their children.

[Anonymous]

JF lobbies very loudly for what is best for his OWN family. The VLP program for his son. A raise for himself.

That's fine. We all act in our own best interests.

But don't be hypocritical. Don't make yourself out to be some social justice/race warrior when you're clearly not. Don't call other parents unethical when we too are making decisions for what's best for our families, same as him.

Don't try to burn the whole house down and pretend option programs are to blame for all of society's ills just because the one you wanted got cut.

JF's hypocrisy is galling. He's so easy to see through. Before I found him merely irritating. Now he has lost all credibility with me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.

Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.

Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.

It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.

Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.

What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?

A district I used to work for does this now. It seems to work well and many people get a school they rank highly https://schoolchoice.dpsk12.org/o/schoolchoice/page/about

But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)

But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.

Yeah, well, “everyone gets a school near the top of their list” is a farce then. Forcing families into Drew/Randolph/wherever would only result in more families going private.

I never said everyone gets a school near the top of their list. NEvertheless, in the Cambridge MA model, the vast majority of people get their #1 or #2 choice. That means the rest do not. But this model isn't only based on the preferences parents list. It includes male/female ratios, geographic proximity, and economic status.

I woud love to know more about this. Is Cambridge MA as unbalanced as Arlington? Are there schools there as different as Jamestown and Carlin Springs? Nottingham and Drew? Or are the schools there more or less equally desirable>

Not sure who would opt into Drew and Randolph other than the poor kids already there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:* I meant Spanish learners, aka the White/Asian kids.

Why would Spanish learners not include Black children?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My takeaway is that if you have enough money to buy a house in the wealthiest zip codes, you never have to worry about being called racist.

You think so? I think it's more that you isolate yourself so much that you don't hear the people who call you racist because they aren't your fellow "flee from the south arlington schools" people. If you were to be a fly in south Arlington conversations, you would hear the racist accusations toward those wealthiest zip coders.

This is so dumb to me. I live in N Arlington because both DH and I had jobs right along I-66/orange line corridor. South Arlington would not work for our commutes.

Real nice community you have in the south part of the county talking crap about people in different zip codes. FWIW I’ve never heard anyone in the North part of the county say bad things about the people living in the south part.

This is hysterical.
The commute wouldn't work for you, but it works for egads of people in south Arlington? Where do you work? It might not be as straightforward a commute; but surely it would "work" because you're capable of figuring out how to make it work just like thousands of other people.
You either don't hear northern residents bad-mouthing the southies because y'all don't bother to talk about south arlington - since it's a separate world from yours; or you just aren't interacting with the ones who do. Not all southies think all northies are racist a-holes and not all northies think all southies are ignorant homeless criminals. But if your commute from south Arlington would have worked for you, I'm sure you would have been equally happy to attend Carlin Springs or Randolph.

Jobs were in Fair Lakes and Ballston. In fact a lot of jobs in VA happen to be more concentrated along the 66 corridor so it makes sense that people want to live in Vienna/Falls Church/N Arlington.

The underlying issue is a development one. The county has concentrated lower income areas and that trickles down to where employers put job centers. Blaming individual families for choosing where to live based on factors outside their control is one way to go about it I guess. But I also have a lot of wealthy neighbors who are POC (black, Asian, + mixed families). Are they racist for wanting good commutes and schools that do not have the issues that come with higher poverty rates? Or is it only white families that are bad for this?

The underlying issue is fixing the county’s pattern of development instead of trying to force people through the use of school boundaries or judging them for choosing option schools. FWIW I support denser development along areas close to metro and would like to see more SES mixture in the north part of the county and I know plenty of other friends/neighbors who don’t exactly love raising kids in a concentration of wealth.

But we need to stop asking schools and individual families to take on the brunt of fixing societal issues. If you want to call a bunch of people you don’t know in a different zip code racist though, I hope that helps you feel better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.

Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.

Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.

It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.

Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.

What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?

A district I used to work for does this now. It seems to work well and many people get a school they rank highly https://schoolchoice.dpsk12.org/o/schoolchoice/page/about

But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)

But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.

Yeah, well, “everyone gets a school near the top of their list” is a farce then. Forcing families into Drew/Randolph/wherever would only result in more families going private.

I never said everyone gets a school near the top of their list. NEvertheless, in the Cambridge MA model, the vast majority of people get their #1 or #2 choice. That means the rest do not. But this model isn't only based on the preferences parents list. It includes male/female ratios, geographic proximity, and economic status.

I woud love to know more about this. Is Cambridge MA as unbalanced as Arlington? Are there schools there as different as Jamestown and Carlin Springs? Nottingham and Drew? Or are the schools there more or less equally desirable>

Not sure who would opt into Drew and Randolph other than the poor kids already there.

This. And the families who are sent there will either move to another district or go private, leaving us with… the same result!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My takeaway is that if you have enough money to buy a house in the wealthiest zip codes, you never have to worry about being called racist.

You think so? I think it's more that you isolate yourself so much that you don't hear the people who call you racist because they aren't your fellow "flee from the south arlington schools" people. If you were to be a fly in south Arlington conversations, you would hear the racist accusations toward those wealthiest zip coders.

This is so dumb to me. I live in N Arlington because both DH and I had jobs right along I-66/orange line corridor. South Arlington would not work for our commutes.

Real nice community you have in the south part of the county talking crap about people in different zip codes. FWIW I’ve never heard anyone in the North part of the county say bad things about the people living in the south part.

This is hysterical.
The commute wouldn't work for you, but it works for egads of people in south Arlington? Where do you work? It might not be as straightforward a commute; but surely it would "work" because you're capable of figuring out how to make it work just like thousands of other people.
You either don't hear northern residents bad-mouthing the southies because y'all don't bother to talk about south arlington - since it's a separate world from yours; or you just aren't interacting with the ones who do. Not all southies think all northies are racist a-holes and not all northies think all southies are ignorant homeless criminals. But if your commute from south Arlington would have worked for you, I'm sure you would have been equally happy to attend Carlin Springs or Randolph.

Jobs were in Fair Lakes and Ballston. In fact a lot of jobs in VA happen to be more concentrated along the 66 corridor so it makes sense that people want to live in Vienna/Falls Church/N Arlington.

The underlying issue is a development one. The county has concentrated lower income areas and that trickles down to where employers put job centers. Blaming individual families for choosing where to live based on factors outside their control is one way to go about it I guess. But I also have a lot of wealthy neighbors who are POC (black, Asian, + mixed families). Are they racist for wanting good commutes and schools that do not have the issues that come with higher poverty rates? Or is it only white families that are bad for this?

The underlying issue is fixing the county’s pattern of development instead of trying to force people through the use of school boundaries or judging them for choosing option schools. FWIW I support denser development along areas close to metro and would like to see more SES mixture in the north part of the county and I know plenty of other friends/neighbors who don’t exactly love raising kids in a concentration of wealth.

But we need to stop asking schools and individual families to take on the brunt of fixing societal issues. If you want to call a bunch of people you don’t know in a different zip code racist though, I hope that helps you feel better.

Exactly. Stop concentrating affordable housing in one part of the county. THAT’S the problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not the OP, but one of the main commenters on that post absolutely hates MSPA (no judgement from me either way). But the background is interesting: their home was rezoned away from Fleet to Drew when MPSA moved into Henry. There’s lots of animosity still about that and also with the Career Center not becoming a neighborhood school, which would have benefited that family, but rather a choice school open to all regardless of boundaries. Interestingly, their child was allowed a transfer to Fleet and never attended Drew even after the reasoning. But that poster is really angry because other parents also attend schools that aren’t their assigned one. So, anyway, some of us didn’t forget about that.

Boundaries are the problem. Our neighborhoods are segregated base on our racial past (redlining, etc.), and so neighborhood schools are also segregated.

Forcing everyone to attend their assigned schools will not solve the problem in any meaningful way, and it will also remove choices from all those who can’t make “checkbook” choices like wealthy families can, to live in certain neighborhoods or to pay for private schools.

It’s not a solvable problem, so it’s better to just worry about yourself. If you’re a white (or even non-white) family of means really not comfortable with the neighborhood school for whatever reason, you’re not going to send your kids to the school even if they take away option schools. You’re going to go private or move to a different zone.

Actually, it is. Ranked choice admissions countywide.

What if everyone’s rankings are similar? Who gets left out?

A district I used to work for does this now. It seems to work well and many people get a school they rank highly https://schoolchoice.dpsk12.org/o/schoolchoice/page/about

But like… who is going to Drew? Do you really see it becoming more diverse? (I’m not implying it’s a bad school, just that low test scores mean very few people aren’t going to have it at the bottom…)

But people would be assigned there anyway. Eventually, it will develop the student body needed to not scare so many away. Randolph isn't going to be high on many peoples' list, either, except the bArcroft Apt families who are happy to walk to the nearest school with their entire homogenous community. Not any different than Nottingham in that regard.

Yeah, well, “everyone gets a school near the top of their list” is a farce then. Forcing families into Drew/Randolph/wherever would only result in more families going private.

I never said everyone gets a school near the top of their list. NEvertheless, in the Cambridge MA model, the vast majority of people get their #1 or #2 choice. That means the rest do not. But this model isn't only based on the preferences parents list. It includes male/female ratios, geographic proximity, and economic status.

I woud love to know more about this. Is Cambridge MA as unbalanced as Arlington? Are there schools there as different as Jamestown and Carlin Springs? Nottingham and Drew? Or are the schools there more or less equally desirable>

Not sure who would opt into Drew and Randolph other than the poor kids already there.

I remember someone in the AEM thread asking if anyone had administratively transferred to CS or Randolph, and a few people replied. I can’t find that comment anymore, but when threads get too long, often comments disappear in Facebook.

I think it’s a valid point. A lot of people commented in AEM that they go to option schools because of the diversity. Nah. The diversity is an excuse to make you feel good. You did it for the outcomes for your own kids. Own it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:* I meant Spanish learners, aka the White/Asian kids.

Why would Spanish learners not include Black children?

DP. How many Black kids are in Key or Claremont? That’s easy to find. My guess is that it’s negligible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:* I meant Spanish learners, aka the White/Asian kids.

Why would Spanish learners not include Black children?

DP. How many Black kids are in Key or Claremont? That’s easy to find. My guess is that it’s negligible.

Why?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Over the past decade, every boundary change at the ES, MS, HS levels, and every option program move towards full independence has only exacerbated demographic segregation among the county’s schools. And now the new boundary policy deprecates or discards demographic criteria. Moreover, in the current legal climate, that is the safe route with the least potential for conflict.

I think this is why some people have thrown up their hands and would rather eliminate neighborhood schools and move to ranked choice model for all schools. A lottery model.

That's true for me. I wasn't a ranked choice advocate before; but I'm fully on board now.

But here's the thing. Betcha the JFs and the CGs of the world wouldn't go for ranked choice. They want their neighborhood school. They just want YOUR white/upper income kids to stay in it with their kids. Because they think that makes it better. Which come to think of it sounds downright racist to me. But I would never dare to say that out loud.