Can ask for a placement test into Algebra 1 in 7th grade in middle school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some people have posted that if your child doesn’t get above 95 percentile in the IAAT they shouldn’t bother with Alegbra in grade 7. My child got a 93. They want to do Algebra if they get a pass advanced in SOL but should I steer them towards math 7 honors?

The cutoff is 91%.

If your kid can quickly understand concepts, they will do fine. You have to understand it is a high school course. Homework and review are needed to get an A.

Please. Algebra is not a high school course, the concepts are perfectly within the grasp of motivated middle school students. Heck, I took it in 8th grade in a tiny little town in a remote state 30 years back. This "Oh no, it's a high school course" attitude is just fear mongering.

Maybe it was a high school course back in the 50s when kids did not have the resources of today, and when it was actually taught rigorously with plenty of problems to be solved. But have you taken a look at the current course? It most definitely is tailored for middle school students, it's fairly watered down version. They *still* haven't learned how to factor quadratics yet in Alg 7th Honors, and it's the 4th quarter, for goodness sake!

The main reason that algebra is challenging for many kids, is because they had literally 0 homework in elementary school and have to adjust to actually practicing doing work. It's not because it's some mythical "high school" course and thus is somehow beyond the reach of 7th and 8th graders.

At our MS, they double the difficulty by also having no homework for math class and very little practice in class. It is a tough course (and SBG doesn't help) but not necessarily because it's "a high school course".

[Anonymous]

It is part of the high school transcript. Many schools don’t offer it until high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is part of the high school transcript. Many schools don’t offer it until high school.

Sure, getting high school credit for it is fine, but that is not the same as saying that it's a high school course with its obvious implication of high school difficulty.

Now I'm curious: Can you name which middle schools do not offer algebra 1? I haven't heard of one. I would suggest that it is uncommon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Now I'm curious: Can you name which middle schools do not offer algebra 1? I haven't heard of one. I would suggest that it is uncommon.

30 years ago it was offered at every middle school in my rural area. Some even offered it to 7th graders.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is part of the high school transcript. Many schools don’t offer it until high school.

Sure, getting high school credit for it is fine, but that is not the same as saying that it's a high school course with its obvious implication of high school difficulty.

Now I'm curious: Can you name which middle schools do not offer algebra 1? I haven't heard of one. I would suggest that it is uncommon.

A lot, actually. Apparently as of 2016 only 59% of school schools in the country offer algebra to 8th graders.

https://www2.ed.gov/datastory/stem/algebra/index.html#:~:text=Overall%2C%2080%20percent%20of%208,I%20in%208th%20grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is part of the high school transcript. Many schools don’t offer it until high school.

Sure, getting high school credit for it is fine, but that is not the same as saying that it's a high school course with its obvious implication of high school difficulty.

Now I'm curious: Can you name which middle schools do not offer algebra 1? I haven't heard of one. I would suggest that it is uncommon.

A lot, actually. Apparently as of 2016 only 59% of school schools in the country offer algebra to 8th graders.

https://www2.ed.gov/datastory/stem/algebra/index.html#:~:text=Overall%2C%2080%20percent%20of%208,I%20in%208th%20grade.

Still uncommon. If you read in the article, 80% of students had access to algebra 1 at their middle schools based on the # of students served by the schools with algebra 1. In any case, in this area I believe it's close to 100%.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other option is to have her start taking an online algebra class at home like AOPS or there are plenty of really good homeschool algebra programs. She takes algebra at home while taking pre-algebra/math 7 next year. In 8th she takes honors algebra and gets an easy A since she will have already taken algebra and keeps studying topics into algebra 2.

Then she takes geometry the summer between 8th and 9th. In 9th she has caught up to the students who took algebra in 7th. Except she has taken more algebra without having a gap of a year like the student who took geometry in 8th. And has studied some topics from algebra 2. This worked for my child who then got an A in 9th honors algebra 2 while some other students struggled who were advanced into algebra in 7th.

I think this would require taking geometry at home in 8th grade so that she isn't expected to learn a year's worth of math over the summer. It's also a shame that a student who has already taken algebra and can demonstrate their knowledge would need to retake the class.

This is true but not as bad as you think.

The Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2 sequence is absolutely terrible. You should do both Algebra and Geometry every year.
So you are in good shape to spend school time reviewing easy Algebra 1 for fluency, and spend home time learning Geometry (lots of high-quality low-cost options) before getting summer credit

Many of the top students do this. It's also better, pedagogically, for your student to learn at their own pace first, and use the school pace later for review, instead of jumping ahead in school where now they have a high-stakes commitment to keep up with school pace.

This is a strange way to look at school. Where did this idea come from, that school is not for learning but is only for getting high grades? Teachers teach material, kids don't have to prelearn it. Their parents think they should so they preteach it (either through a class or at the kitchen table). But why?

Because of the reality that math is unfortunately taught extremely poorly in American schools, (FCPS not being that different, outside perhaps a few schools and/or teachers). Many parents who realize this then come to the logical conclusion that kids can learn math at home/via enrichment much more thoroughly. It's a sad situation, but there's no easy fix, it's cultural and would likely take generations to fix the way math is taught in schools.

Math is taught just fine if you look at the advanced cohort. The biggest difference compared to international students is how early other countries track students to the trades and away from math.

There's very little to "teach" in basic math. The books are clear and there are videos too. It takes practice and practice for students to reach their potential.

Gaining proficiency in basic arithmetic is similar to gaining proficiency in basketball shooting. The more the practice, the better one gets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Now I'm curious: Can you name which middle schools do not offer algebra 1? I haven't heard of one. I would suggest that it is uncommon.

30 years ago it was offered at every middle school in my rural area. Some even offered it to 7th graders.

Those were merit days, now its all equity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^ Forgot to add:
FCPS is very rigid about gatekeeping the math, but principals have some wiggle room. There isn't some additional placement test that FCPS would be willing to use. The principal of the MS may let your kid take Algebra, but they also may say no. If they say no, then your kid will be taking M7H.

This is how poor are missing out on getting to geometry or Algebra-2 in middle school, not knowing how to convince the principal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other option is to have her start taking an online algebra class at home like AOPS or there are plenty of really good homeschool algebra programs. She takes algebra at home while taking pre-algebra/math 7 next year. In 8th she takes honors algebra and gets an easy A since she will have already taken algebra and keeps studying topics into algebra 2.

Then she takes geometry the summer between 8th and 9th. In 9th she has caught up to the students who took algebra in 7th. Except she has taken more algebra without having a gap of a year like the student who took geometry in 8th. And has studied some topics from algebra 2. This worked for my child who then got an A in 9th honors algebra 2 while some other students struggled who were advanced into algebra in 7th.

I think this would require taking geometry at home in 8th grade so that she isn't expected to learn a year's worth of math over the summer. It's also a shame that a student who has already taken algebra and can demonstrate their knowledge would need to retake the class.

This is true but not as bad as you think.

The Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2 sequence is absolutely terrible. You should do both Algebra and Geometry every year.
So you are in good shape to spend school time reviewing easy Algebra 1 for fluency, and spend home time learning Geometry (lots of high-quality low-cost options) before getting summer credit

Many of the top students do this. It's also better, pedagogically, for your student to learn at their own pace first, and use the school pace later for review, instead of jumping ahead in school where now they have a high-stakes commitment to keep up with school pace.

This is a strange way to look at school. Where did this idea come from, that school is not for learning but is only for getting high grades? Teachers teach material, kids don't have to prelearn it. Their parents think they should so they preteach it (either through a class or at the kitchen table). But why?

Because of the reality that math is unfortunately taught extremely poorly in American schools, (FCPS not being that different, outside perhaps a few schools and/or teachers). Many parents who realize this then come to the logical conclusion that kids can learn math at home/via enrichment much more thoroughly. It's a sad situation, but there's no easy fix, it's cultural and would likely take generations to fix the way math is taught in schools.

Math is taught just fine if you look at the advanced cohort. The biggest difference compared to international students is how early other countries track students to the trades and away from math.

I don't agree, the advanced cohort in this area has been learning more math from out of school enrichment activities, so you cannot just say that math is taught fine in school. If you want simple proof, all you have to do is look at the worksheets and type of material the children work on in school, and you will quickly realize how bad it is.

Some have and some have not. My kids Advanced Math class has three kids that discuss doing math enrichment, the rest don't or don't discuss it. The math club at his school only has 4 6th graders and only one of them, my kid, does math outside of school. I know two kids who scored in the 99th percentile on the IAAT who have not done any outside math enrichment. One of DS friends who does very well in Advanced Math is very open in thinking it is crazy that he enjoys math competitions and does them for fun.

DS attends RSM and the classes meet just about every stereotype that you can come up with. They are mainly male, mostly Indian, Chinese, Japanese, and Korean. There are probably other Asian countries represented but those are the languages I recognize. The European looking families that I see are speaking in what sounds like Russian or some type of Slavic language.

There are probably schools were there are far more kids in math enrichment, I would guess the ES and MS Centers, so parents at those schools might feel more pressure for their kids to be enrolled in enrichment. There is a cultural element at play and we would be crazy to not admit that. But there are a good number of kids who will never take a math enrichment class and do well in higher level math in school.

My 8th grader is in Geometry. 600 on every math SOL he has ever taken. 99th percentile on IAAT. High A's every quarter in Algebra and Geometry. And has never had any outside enrichment. He just has a mathy brain. Of his 6 closest friends, all of whom are in Geometry in 8th, only one has ever done outside enrichment--he went to Mathnasium in early ES but not since 2nd or 3rd grade. DS's friends who do outside math enrichment are all in Algebra II in 8th grade, either because they did Algebra in 6th (went to the MS for 1st period) or because they took Geometry the summer between 7th and 8th.

How does your son feel about being "behind" some of his friends? Does he wish he took geometry over the summer like they did?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other option is to have her start taking an online algebra class at home like AOPS or there are plenty of really good homeschool algebra programs. She takes algebra at home while taking pre-algebra/math 7 next year. In 8th she takes honors algebra and gets an easy A since she will have already taken algebra and keeps studying topics into algebra 2.

Then she takes geometry the summer between 8th and 9th. In 9th she has caught up to the students who took algebra in 7th. Except she has taken more algebra without having a gap of a year like the student who took geometry in 8th. And has studied some topics from algebra 2. This worked for my child who then got an A in 9th honors algebra 2 while some other students struggled who were advanced into algebra in 7th.

AoPs advertisement, again!

I object, too. Please don't put a kid who scored 80% on the IAAT in AoPS. It hurts the truly gifted kids there.
Put them in Kumon or another remedial program, not in a gifted program.

That's not a remedial score, but I do agree they'd be better served with AoPS prealgebra in 7th.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other option is to have her start taking an online algebra class at home like AOPS or there are plenty of really good homeschool algebra programs. She takes algebra at home while taking pre-algebra/math 7 next year. In 8th she takes honors algebra and gets an easy A since she will have already taken algebra and keeps studying topics into algebra 2.

Then she takes geometry the summer between 8th and 9th. In 9th she has caught up to the students who took algebra in 7th. Except she has taken more algebra without having a gap of a year like the student who took geometry in 8th. And has studied some topics from algebra 2. This worked for my child who then got an A in 9th honors algebra 2 while some other students struggled who were advanced into algebra in 7th.

AoPs advertisement, again!

I object, too. Please don't put a kid who scored 80% on the IAAT in AoPS. It hurts the truly gifted kids there.
Put them in Kumon or another remedial program, not in a gifted program.

I see what you did there, another boosting for Aops/RMS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other option is to have her start taking an online algebra class at home like AOPS or there are plenty of really good homeschool algebra programs. She takes algebra at home while taking pre-algebra/math 7 next year. In 8th she takes honors algebra and gets an easy A since she will have already taken algebra and keeps studying topics into algebra 2.

Then she takes geometry the summer between 8th and 9th. In 9th she has caught up to the students who took algebra in 7th. Except she has taken more algebra without having a gap of a year like the student who took geometry in 8th. And has studied some topics from algebra 2. This worked for my child who then got an A in 9th honors algebra 2 while some other students struggled who were advanced into algebra in 7th.

I think this would require taking geometry at home in 8th grade so that she isn't expected to learn a year's worth of math over the summer. It's also a shame that a student who has already taken algebra and can demonstrate their knowledge would need to retake the class.

This is true but not as bad as you think.

The Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2 sequence is absolutely terrible. You should do both Algebra and Geometry every year.
So you are in good shape to spend school time reviewing easy Algebra 1 for fluency, and spend home time learning Geometry (lots of high-quality low-cost options) before getting summer credit

Many of the top students do this. It's also better, pedagogically, for your student to learn at their own pace first, and use the school pace later for review, instead of jumping ahead in school where now they have a high-stakes commitment to keep up with school pace.

This is a strange way to look at school. Where did this idea come from, that school is not for learning but is only for getting high grades? Teachers teach material, kids don't have to prelearn it. Their parents think they should so they preteach it (either through a class or at the kitchen table). But why?

Because of the reality that math is unfortunately taught extremely poorly in American schools, (FCPS not being that different, outside perhaps a few schools and/or teachers). Many parents who realize this then come to the logical conclusion that kids can learn math at home/via enrichment much more thoroughly. It's a sad situation, but there's no easy fix, it's cultural and would likely take generations to fix the way math is taught in schools.

Math is taught just fine if you look at the advanced cohort. The biggest difference compared to international students is how early other countries track students to the trades and away from math.

I don't agree, the advanced cohort in this area has been learning more math from out of school enrichment activities, so you cannot just say that math is taught fine in school. If you want simple proof, all you have to do is look at the worksheets and type of material the children work on in school, and you will quickly realize how bad it is.

Some have and some have not. My kids Advanced Math class has three kids that discuss doing math enrichment, the rest don't or don't discuss it. The math club at his school only has 4 6th graders and only one of them, my kid, does math outside of school. I know two kids who scored in the 99th percentile on the IAAT who have not done any outside math enrichment. One of DS friends who does very well in Advanced Math is very open in thinking it is crazy that he enjoys math competitions and does them for fun.

DS attends RSM and the classes meet just about every stereotype that you can come up with. They are mainly male, mostly Indian, Chinese, Japanese, and Korean. There are probably other Asian countries represented but those are the languages I recognize. The European looking families that I see are speaking in what sounds like Russian or some type of Slavic language.

There are probably schools were there are far more kids in math enrichment, I would guess the ES and MS Centers, so parents at those schools might feel more pressure for their kids to be enrolled in enrichment. There is a cultural element at play and we would be crazy to not admit that. But there are a good number of kids who will never take a math enrichment class and do well in higher level math in school.

My 8th grader is in Geometry. 600 on every math SOL he has ever taken. 99th percentile on IAAT. High A's every quarter in Algebra and Geometry. And has never had any outside enrichment. He just has a mathy brain. Of his 6 closest friends, all of whom are in Geometry in 8th, only one has ever done outside enrichment--he went to Mathnasium in early ES but not since 2nd or 3rd grade. DS's friends who do outside math enrichment are all in Algebra II in 8th grade, either because they did Algebra in 6th (went to the MS for 1st period) or because they took Geometry the summer between 7th and 8th.

How does your son feel about being "behind" some of his friends? Does he wish he took geometry over the summer like they did?

My kid is similar, >570 on all SOL Math tests, 99th percentile on IAAT, high A's every quarter in Honor Algebra 1. He wanted to take summer geometry and I said no. His reasoning? "many of my friends are going to take it this summer so I should take it." My reason? "Geometry is such an important class that no one should rush it if they are planning to be in a STEM field". I teach science in college so I do know a thing or two about math preparation. Some (not a few) students in my science classes have problems with fundamental algebra and geometry. I feel bad as there is not much I could do and honestly it is too late to fix when they are in college. Maybe some of them were pushed to Algrebra/Geometry when they are not ready or took those classes in summer, I do not know. Parents here who are reading this: Math is foundation and this is not a race, think long-term please.

[Anonymous]

What Geometry is used in science classes in college?

[Anonymous]

I don’t see why not. It’s up to the student - it no longer needs an invite or recommendation. A win for inclusive programs.

Anonymous wrote:My daughter didn't get 91% percentile in the IAAT, if she advanced pass the 7th grade SOL, can she ask for a placement test into the Algebra 1 at middle school ?