Can ask for a placement test into Algebra 1 in 7th grade in middle school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other option is to have her start taking an online algebra class at home like AOPS or there are plenty of really good homeschool algebra programs. She takes algebra at home while taking pre-algebra/math 7 next year. In 8th she takes honors algebra and gets an easy A since she will have already taken algebra and keeps studying topics into algebra 2.

Then she takes geometry the summer between 8th and 9th. In 9th she has caught up to the students who took algebra in 7th. Except she has taken more algebra without having a gap of a year like the student who took geometry in 8th. And has studied some topics from algebra 2. This worked for my child who then got an A in 9th honors algebra 2 while some other students struggled who were advanced into algebra in 7th.

I think this would require taking geometry at home in 8th grade so that she isn't expected to learn a year's worth of math over the summer. It's also a shame that a student who has already taken algebra and can demonstrate their knowledge would need to retake the class.

This is true but not as bad as you think.

The Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2 sequence is absolutely terrible. You should do both Algebra and Geometry every year.
So you are in good shape to spend school time reviewing easy Algebra 1 for fluency, and spend home time learning Geometry (lots of high-quality low-cost options) before getting summer credit

Many of the top students do this. It's also better, pedagogically, for your student to learn at their own pace first, and use the school pace later for review, instead of jumping ahead in school where now they have a high-stakes commitment to keep up with school pace.

This is a strange way to look at school. Where did this idea come from, that school is not for learning but is only for getting high grades? Teachers teach material, kids don't have to prelearn it. Their parents think they should so they preteach it (either through a class or at the kitchen table). But why?

Because of the reality that math is unfortunately taught extremely poorly in American schools, (FCPS not being that different, outside perhaps a few schools and/or teachers). Many parents who realize this then come to the logical conclusion that kids can learn math at home/via enrichment much more thoroughly. It's a sad situation, but there's no easy fix, it's cultural and would likely take generations to fix the way math is taught in schools.

Math is taught just fine if you look at the advanced cohort. The biggest difference compared to international students is how early other countries track students to the trades and away from math.

+1.

It's also true that if you move away from the narrative that good teaching can level the ability playing field, you realize that it's OK for an advanced cohort that is (heresy alert) good at math to exist and that some kids are just never going to grasp differential equations, just like my short 4th grader is never going to be Caitlin Clark.

That's very reductive reasoning. Differential equations is simply one of many mathematical subjects that is used in science, engineering, and many other areas of life. One does not even have to be a pure math major to encounter it. Millions of people use it in some form. The comparison to sports (and to a superstar) is completely meaningless. You need to have a higher bar for your child. You really can't predict that they will not be able to understand basic college math at this age; by saying that you are setting them up to live to your expectation.

You can be very successful in life without math above Algebra 2. Only 35% of the US population has a college degree. I would guess that most of the people without a college degree have not had calculus. It is fine for a child to take Algebra in 8th or even 9th grade. Most people don't need calculus and that is ok. We should have calculus classes in HS for the kids who are able to take those classes and want to take those classes. I have a PhD in a social science and have never taken Calculus.

But kids who learn calculus in HS, get into high-paying, math-oriented STEM careers, which creates income inequality compared to kids who end their math journey with just algebra 2. Doesn't it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other option is to have her start taking an online algebra class at home like AOPS or there are plenty of really good homeschool algebra programs. She takes algebra at home while taking pre-algebra/math 7 next year. In 8th she takes honors algebra and gets an easy A since she will have already taken algebra and keeps studying topics into algebra 2.

Then she takes geometry the summer between 8th and 9th. In 9th she has caught up to the students who took algebra in 7th. Except she has taken more algebra without having a gap of a year like the student who took geometry in 8th. And has studied some topics from algebra 2. This worked for my child who then got an A in 9th honors algebra 2 while some other students struggled who were advanced into algebra in 7th.

I think this would require taking geometry at home in 8th grade so that she isn't expected to learn a year's worth of math over the summer. It's also a shame that a student who has already taken algebra and can demonstrate their knowledge would need to retake the class.

This is true but not as bad as you think.

The Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2 sequence is absolutely terrible. You should do both Algebra and Geometry every year.
So you are in good shape to spend school time reviewing easy Algebra 1 for fluency, and spend home time learning Geometry (lots of high-quality low-cost options) before getting summer credit

Many of the top students do this. It's also better, pedagogically, for your student to learn at their own pace first, and use the school pace later for review, instead of jumping ahead in school where now they have a high-stakes commitment to keep up with school pace.

This is a strange way to look at school. Where did this idea come from, that school is not for learning but is only for getting high grades? Teachers teach material, kids don't have to prelearn it. Their parents think they should so they preteach it (either through a class or at the kitchen table). But why?

Because of the reality that math is unfortunately taught extremely poorly in American schools, (FCPS not being that different, outside perhaps a few schools and/or teachers). Many parents who realize this then come to the logical conclusion that kids can learn math at home/via enrichment much more thoroughly. It's a sad situation, but there's no easy fix, it's cultural and would likely take generations to fix the way math is taught in schools.

Math is taught just fine if you look at the advanced cohort. The biggest difference compared to international students is how early other countries track students to the trades and away from math.

+1.

It's also true that if you move away from the narrative that good teaching can level the ability playing field, you realize that it's OK for an advanced cohort that is (heresy alert) good at math to exist and that some kids are just never going to grasp differential equations, just like my short 4th grader is never going to be Caitlin Clark.

That's very reductive reasoning. Differential equations is simply one of many mathematical subjects that is used in science, engineering, and many other areas of life. One does not even have to be a pure math major to encounter it. Millions of people use it in some form. The comparison to sports (and to a superstar) is completely meaningless. You need to have a higher bar for your child. You really can't predict that they will not be able to understand basic college math at this age; by saying that you are setting them up to live to your expectation.

You can be very successful in life without math above Algebra 2. Only 35% of the US population has a college degree. I would guess that most of the people without a college degree have not had calculus. It is fine for a child to take Algebra in 8th or even 9th grade. Most people don't need calculus and that is ok. We should have calculus classes in HS for the kids who are able to take those classes and want to take those classes. I have a PhD in a social science and have never taken Calculus.

But kids who learn calculus in HS, get into high-paying, math-oriented STEM careers, which creates income inequality compared to kids who end their math journey with just algebra 2. Doesn't it?

No. Stem careers are not the most lucrative. Sorry that someone has steered you wrong about that.

[Anonymous]

But kids who learn calculus in HS, get into high-paying, math-oriented STEM careers, which creates income inequality compared to kids who end their math journey with just algebra 2. Doesn't it?

No. Stem careers are not the most lucrative. Sorry that someone has steered you wrong about that.

Even lucrative non-STEM careers require strong math skills to be successful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

But kids who learn calculus in HS, get into high-paying, math-oriented STEM careers, which creates income inequality compared to kids who end their math journey with just algebra 2. Doesn't it?

No. Stem careers are not the most lucrative. Sorry that someone has steered you wrong about that.

Even lucrative non-STEM careers require strong math skills to be successful.

The kind of math required for, say, a pipe fitting job which can still support a family (not especially lucrative but not bad) is very different than the kind required to write machine learning algorithms.

Same with the kind of math for the most common kind of millionaire in America - a beer distribution company owner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other option is to have her start taking an online algebra class at home like AOPS or there are plenty of really good homeschool algebra programs. She takes algebra at home while taking pre-algebra/math 7 next year. In 8th she takes honors algebra and gets an easy A since she will have already taken algebra and keeps studying topics into algebra 2.

Then she takes geometry the summer between 8th and 9th. In 9th she has caught up to the students who took algebra in 7th. Except she has taken more algebra without having a gap of a year like the student who took geometry in 8th. And has studied some topics from algebra 2. This worked for my child who then got an A in 9th honors algebra 2 while some other students struggled who were advanced into algebra in 7th.

I think this would require taking geometry at home in 8th grade so that she isn't expected to learn a year's worth of math over the summer. It's also a shame that a student who has already taken algebra and can demonstrate their knowledge would need to retake the class.

This is true but not as bad as you think.

The Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2 sequence is absolutely terrible. You should do both Algebra and Geometry every year.
So you are in good shape to spend school time reviewing easy Algebra 1 for fluency, and spend home time learning Geometry (lots of high-quality low-cost options) before getting summer credit

Many of the top students do this. It's also better, pedagogically, for your student to learn at their own pace first, and use the school pace later for review, instead of jumping ahead in school where now they have a high-stakes commitment to keep up with school pace.

This is a strange way to look at school. Where did this idea come from, that school is not for learning but is only for getting high grades? Teachers teach material, kids don't have to prelearn it. Their parents think they should so they preteach it (either through a class or at the kitchen table). But why?

Because of the reality that math is unfortunately taught extremely poorly in American schools, (FCPS not being that different, outside perhaps a few schools and/or teachers). Many parents who realize this then come to the logical conclusion that kids can learn math at home/via enrichment much more thoroughly. It's a sad situation, but there's no easy fix, it's cultural and would likely take generations to fix the way math is taught in schools.

Math is taught just fine if you look at the advanced cohort. The biggest difference compared to international students is how early other countries track students to the trades and away from math.

They are not just tracking kids away from math but all college prep type classes. That is my issue with the European system, it tracks kids into trades too early and does not have systems in place to provide scaffolding for kids capable of college but with learning issues. I don't think every kid needs to go to college and I think the US needs to do a better job of providing a trades path for kids not interested in college, but I think there is a middle ground between the US system and the European system. The US system is too focused on college.

US system provides trade path for kids not interested in college, but equity considerations run counter to this personal choice. A kid that spends more time on practicing math is putting another kid who is not spending time on math at a disadvantage. So not just the one kid practicing math needs to be stopped, but every other kid that looks like them needs to be stopped too. Only then equity can be achieved.

FCPS should have 2-4 pure Vocational schools, not academies, where kids who are interested in trades go to learn. They would cover the regular graduation requirements and have offerings in the trades that lead to kids being able to get jobs right out of school. The benefit to having it at one building and over a 4 year period is that it is accessible to everyone and students can take different trade based classes to figure out what they really want to do. Instead, FCPS has a system that requires kids do extra research to identify what they might be interested, jump through hoops to apply, and then have to work out weird schedules so they can be bussed to different schools for one program.

That might mean taking some of the under-enrolled schools and refurbishing them so that they can house more vocational programs and offering bussing to those schools so the students can participate in that program. That might mean re-thinking how we are using our current schools and making some adjustments. It might mean opening schools for Votech but not having the space for athletic fields and figuring out how we do that.

I mean, I know that it won't happen but FCPS, and the US in general, is biased towards a school base dmodel that is college prep based and does not do well by the kids who have no real interest in college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other option is to have her start taking an online algebra class at home like AOPS or there are plenty of really good homeschool algebra programs. She takes algebra at home while taking pre-algebra/math 7 next year. In 8th she takes honors algebra and gets an easy A since she will have already taken algebra and keeps studying topics into algebra 2.

Then she takes geometry the summer between 8th and 9th. In 9th she has caught up to the students who took algebra in 7th. Except she has taken more algebra without having a gap of a year like the student who took geometry in 8th. And has studied some topics from algebra 2. This worked for my child who then got an A in 9th honors algebra 2 while some other students struggled who were advanced into algebra in 7th.

I think this would require taking geometry at home in 8th grade so that she isn't expected to learn a year's worth of math over the summer. It's also a shame that a student who has already taken algebra and can demonstrate their knowledge would need to retake the class.

This is true but not as bad as you think.

The Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2 sequence is absolutely terrible. You should do both Algebra and Geometry every year.
So you are in good shape to spend school time reviewing easy Algebra 1 for fluency, and spend home time learning Geometry (lots of high-quality low-cost options) before getting summer credit

Many of the top students do this. It's also better, pedagogically, for your student to learn at their own pace first, and use the school pace later for review, instead of jumping ahead in school where now they have a high-stakes commitment to keep up with school pace.

This is a strange way to look at school. Where did this idea come from, that school is not for learning but is only for getting high grades? Teachers teach material, kids don't have to prelearn it. Their parents think they should so they preteach it (either through a class or at the kitchen table). But why?

Because of the reality that math is unfortunately taught extremely poorly in American schools, (FCPS not being that different, outside perhaps a few schools and/or teachers). Many parents who realize this then come to the logical conclusion that kids can learn math at home/via enrichment much more thoroughly. It's a sad situation, but there's no easy fix, it's cultural and would likely take generations to fix the way math is taught in schools.

Math is taught just fine if you look at the advanced cohort. The biggest difference compared to international students is how early other countries track students to the trades and away from math.

I don't agree, the advanced cohort in this area has been learning more math from out of school enrichment activities, so you cannot just say that math is taught fine in school. If you want simple proof, all you have to do is look at the worksheets and type of material the children work on in school, and you will quickly realize how bad it is.

Some have and some have not. My kids Advanced Math class has three kids that discuss doing math enrichment, the rest don't or don't discuss it. The math club at his school only has 4 6th graders and only one of them, my kid, does math outside of school. I know two kids who scored in the 99th percentile on the IAAT who have not done any outside math enrichment. One of DS friends who does very well in Advanced Math is very open in thinking it is crazy that he enjoys math competitions and does them for fun.

DS attends RSM and the classes meet just about every stereotype that you can come up with. They are mainly male, mostly Indian, Chinese, Japanese, and Korean. There are probably other Asian countries represented but those are the languages I recognize. The European looking families that I see are speaking in what sounds like Russian or some type of Slavic language.

There are probably schools were there are far more kids in math enrichment, I would guess the ES and MS Centers, so parents at those schools might feel more pressure for their kids to be enrolled in enrichment. There is a cultural element at play and we would be crazy to not admit that. But there are a good number of kids who will never take a math enrichment class and do well in higher level math in school.

My 8th grader is in Geometry. 600 on every math SOL he has ever taken. 99th percentile on IAAT. High A's every quarter in Algebra and Geometry. And has never had any outside enrichment. He just has a mathy brain. Of his 6 closest friends, all of whom are in Geometry in 8th, only one has ever done outside enrichment--he went to Mathnasium in early ES but not since 2nd or 3rd grade. DS's friends who do outside math enrichment are all in Algebra II in 8th grade, either because they did Algebra in 6th (went to the MS for 1st period) or because they took Geometry the summer between 7th and 8th.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other option is to have her start taking an online algebra class at home like AOPS or there are plenty of really good homeschool algebra programs. She takes algebra at home while taking pre-algebra/math 7 next year. In 8th she takes honors algebra and gets an easy A since she will have already taken algebra and keeps studying topics into algebra 2.

Then she takes geometry the summer between 8th and 9th. In 9th she has caught up to the students who took algebra in 7th. Except she has taken more algebra without having a gap of a year like the student who took geometry in 8th. And has studied some topics from algebra 2. This worked for my child who then got an A in 9th honors algebra 2 while some other students struggled who were advanced into algebra in 7th.

I think this would require taking geometry at home in 8th grade so that she isn't expected to learn a year's worth of math over the summer. It's also a shame that a student who has already taken algebra and can demonstrate their knowledge would need to retake the class.

This is true but not as bad as you think.

The Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2 sequence is absolutely terrible. You should do both Algebra and Geometry every year.
So you are in good shape to spend school time reviewing easy Algebra 1 for fluency, and spend home time learning Geometry (lots of high-quality low-cost options) before getting summer credit

Many of the top students do this. It's also better, pedagogically, for your student to learn at their own pace first, and use the school pace later for review, instead of jumping ahead in school where now they have a high-stakes commitment to keep up with school pace.

This is a strange way to look at school. Where did this idea come from, that school is not for learning but is only for getting high grades? Teachers teach material, kids don't have to prelearn it. Their parents think they should so they preteach it (either through a class or at the kitchen table). But why?

Because of the reality that math is unfortunately taught extremely poorly in American schools, (FCPS not being that different, outside perhaps a few schools and/or teachers). Many parents who realize this then come to the logical conclusion that kids can learn math at home/via enrichment much more thoroughly. It's a sad situation, but there's no easy fix, it's cultural and would likely take generations to fix the way math is taught in schools.

Math is taught just fine if you look at the advanced cohort. The biggest difference compared to international students is how early other countries track students to the trades and away from math.

I don't agree, the advanced cohort in this area has been learning more math from out of school enrichment activities, so you cannot just say that math is taught fine in school. If you want simple proof, all you have to do is look at the worksheets and type of material the children work on in school, and you will quickly realize how bad it is.

Some have and some have not. My kids Advanced Math class has three kids that discuss doing math enrichment, the rest don't or don't discuss it. The math club at his school only has 4 6th graders and only one of them, my kid, does math outside of school. I know two kids who scored in the 99th percentile on the IAAT who have not done any outside math enrichment. One of DS friends who does very well in Advanced Math is very open in thinking it is crazy that he enjoys math competitions and does them for fun.

DS attends RSM and the classes meet just about every stereotype that you can come up with. They are mainly male, mostly Indian, Chinese, Japanese, and Korean. There are probably other Asian countries represented but those are the languages I recognize. The European looking families that I see are speaking in what sounds like Russian or some type of Slavic language.

There are probably schools were there are far more kids in math enrichment, I would guess the ES and MS Centers, so parents at those schools might feel more pressure for their kids to be enrolled in enrichment. There is a cultural element at play and we would be crazy to not admit that. But there are a good number of kids who will never take a math enrichment class and do well in higher level math in school.

My 8th grader is in Geometry. 600 on every math SOL he has ever taken. 99th percentile on IAAT. High A's every quarter in Algebra and Geometry. And has never had any outside enrichment. He just has a mathy brain. Of his 6 closest friends, all of whom are in Geometry in 8th, only one has ever done outside enrichment--he went to Mathnasium in early ES but not since 2nd or 3rd grade. DS's friends who do outside math enrichment are all in Algebra II in 8th grade, either because they did Algebra in 6th (went to the MS for 1st period) or because they took Geometry the summer between 7th and 8th.

We're at a center and I don't think many kids we know in Advanced Math/level IV do outside enrichment. DD knows 1, with 1 more who just does a lot at home. I'm sure there are a few more, but there's not any pressure to do it.

I'm guessing most pressure for things like that are self-inflicted or because you/your kid picked a specific peer group.

[Anonymous]

The "outside enrichment" comments are meant to diminish high achievers indicating somehow they couldn't do it on their own.

And because they are just average kids with extra support provided by their wealth and privilege, the school system shouldn't have to shoulder the burden of their self-inflicted advancement and artificial gap creation against other groups who would be just as advanced if they had the same privilege.

What's pretty funny about it all, is that really smart kids are just kids with special needs, if you really think about it. But since their needs appear like a positive, they are ignored and even diminished by many critics of advanced academic curriculum/programs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The "outside enrichment" comments are meant to diminish high achievers indicating somehow they couldn't do it on their own.

And because they are just average kids with extra support provided by their wealth and privilege, the school system shouldn't have to shoulder the burden of their self-inflicted advancement and artificial gap creation against other groups who would be just as advanced if they had the same privilege.

What's pretty funny about it all, is that really smart kids are just kids with special needs, if you really think about it. But since their needs appear like a positive, they are ignored and even diminished by many critics of advanced academic curriculum/programs.

No, not at all. But prelearning math does skew both the grading curve and the teaching style of teachers. And it has an effect on students who do not prelearn math.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The "outside enrichment" comments are meant to diminish high achievers indicating somehow they couldn't do it on their own.

And because they are just average kids with extra support provided by their wealth and privilege, the school system shouldn't have to shoulder the burden of their self-inflicted advancement and artificial gap creation against other groups who would be just as advanced if they had the same privilege.

What's pretty funny about it all, is that really smart kids are just kids with special needs, if you really think about it. But since their needs appear like a positive, they are ignored and even diminished by many critics of advanced academic curriculum/programs.

All of the bolded is acknowledged at least at the VDOE level with the guidance on gifted program requirements.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other option is to have her start taking an online algebra class at home like AOPS or there are plenty of really good homeschool algebra programs. She takes algebra at home while taking pre-algebra/math 7 next year. In 8th she takes honors algebra and gets an easy A since she will have already taken algebra and keeps studying topics into algebra 2.

Then she takes geometry the summer between 8th and 9th. In 9th she has caught up to the students who took algebra in 7th. Except she has taken more algebra without having a gap of a year like the student who took geometry in 8th. And has studied some topics from algebra 2. This worked for my child who then got an A in 9th honors algebra 2 while some other students struggled who were advanced into algebra in 7th.

AoPs advertisement, again!

I object, too. Please don't put a kid who scored 80% on the IAAT in AoPS. It hurts the truly gifted kids there.
Put them in Kumon or another remedial program, not in a gifted program.

[Anonymous]

Can my daughter ask for an end course test for math 7 Honor at middle school just before 7th grade beginning?
If she passed the math 7 honor test, can she don't need to take the math 7 honor in 7th grade , and can take Algebra 1 honor in 7th grade at an AAP center middle school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can my daughter ask for an end course test for math 7 Honor at middle school just before 7th grade beginning?
If she passed the math 7 honor test, can she don't need to take the math 7 honor in 7th grade , and can take Algebra 1 honor in 7th grade at an AAP center middle school?

Yes. It's called the SOL. She will take it, she doesn't need to ask.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can my daughter ask for an end course test for math 7 Honor at middle school just before 7th grade beginning?
If she passed the math 7 honor test, can she don't need to take the math 7 honor in 7th grade , and can take Algebra 1 honor in 7th grade at an AAP center middle school?

Yes. It's called the SOL. She will take it, she doesn't need to ask.

The SOL is Math 7. Math 7 HN is really, Math 8.

OP, if your kid was close on the IAAT and pass advances the Math 7 SOL, you can probably still get her in. Talk to her current math teacher and see what he or she thinks. If she was not close on the Iowa, she probably should take Math 7 Honors.

[Anonymous]

Why is there even a tangent about whether calculus is necessary? If OP's kid takes M7H, , she would still be on track for calculus in 12th grade.

OP, if your DD knocks the SOL out of the park and has the support of her current math teacher, then you can contact the middle school and request Algebra placement. If she barely gets pass advanced on the SOL, M7H would be a much more appropriate placement.