Can ask for a placement test into Algebra 1 in 7th grade in middle school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other option is to have her start taking an online algebra class at home like AOPS or there are plenty of really good homeschool algebra programs. She takes algebra at home while taking pre-algebra/math 7 next year. In 8th she takes honors algebra and gets an easy A since she will have already taken algebra and keeps studying topics into algebra 2.

Then she takes geometry the summer between 8th and 9th. In 9th she has caught up to the students who took algebra in 7th. Except she has taken more algebra without having a gap of a year like the student who took geometry in 8th. And has studied some topics from algebra 2. This worked for my child who then got an A in 9th honors algebra 2 while some other students struggled who were advanced into algebra in 7th.

I think this would require taking geometry at home in 8th grade so that she isn't expected to learn a year's worth of math over the summer. It's also a shame that a student who has already taken algebra and can demonstrate their knowledge would need to retake the class.

This is true but not as bad as you think.

The Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2 sequence is absolutely terrible. You should do both Algebra and Geometry every year.
So you are in good shape to spend school time reviewing easy Algebra 1 for fluency, and spend home time learning Geometry (lots of high-quality low-cost options) before getting summer credit

Many of the top students do this. It's also better, pedagogically, for your student to learn at their own pace first, and use the school pace later for review, instead of jumping ahead in school where now they have a high-stakes commitment to keep up with school pace.

This is a strange way to look at school. Where did this idea come from, that school is not for learning but is only for getting high grades? Teachers teach material, kids don't have to prelearn it. Their parents think they should so they preteach it (either through a class or at the kitchen table). But why?

Because of the reality that math is unfortunately taught extremely poorly in American schools, (FCPS not being that different, outside perhaps a few schools and/or teachers). Many parents who realize this then come to the logical conclusion that kids can learn math at home/via enrichment much more thoroughly. It's a sad situation, but there's no easy fix, it's cultural and would likely take generations to fix the way math is taught in schools.

Math is taught just fine if you look at the advanced cohort. The biggest difference compared to international students is how early other countries track students to the trades and away from math.

They are not just tracking kids away from math but all college prep type classes. That is my issue with the European system, it tracks kids into trades too early and does not have systems in place to provide scaffolding for kids capable of college but with learning issues. I don't think every kid needs to go to college and I think the US needs to do a better job of providing a trades path for kids not interested in college, but I think there is a middle ground between the US system and the European system. The US system is too focused on college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other option is to have her start taking an online algebra class at home like AOPS or there are plenty of really good homeschool algebra programs. She takes algebra at home while taking pre-algebra/math 7 next year. In 8th she takes honors algebra and gets an easy A since she will have already taken algebra and keeps studying topics into algebra 2.

Then she takes geometry the summer between 8th and 9th. In 9th she has caught up to the students who took algebra in 7th. Except she has taken more algebra without having a gap of a year like the student who took geometry in 8th. And has studied some topics from algebra 2. This worked for my child who then got an A in 9th honors algebra 2 while some other students struggled who were advanced into algebra in 7th.

I think this would require taking geometry at home in 8th grade so that she isn't expected to learn a year's worth of math over the summer. It's also a shame that a student who has already taken algebra and can demonstrate their knowledge would need to retake the class.

This is true but not as bad as you think.

The Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2 sequence is absolutely terrible. You should do both Algebra and Geometry every year.
So you are in good shape to spend school time reviewing easy Algebra 1 for fluency, and spend home time learning Geometry (lots of high-quality low-cost options) before getting summer credit

Many of the top students do this. It's also better, pedagogically, for your student to learn at their own pace first, and use the school pace later for review, instead of jumping ahead in school where now they have a high-stakes commitment to keep up with school pace.

This is a strange way to look at school. Where did this idea come from, that school is not for learning but is only for getting high grades? Teachers teach material, kids don't have to prelearn it. Their parents think they should so they preteach it (either through a class or at the kitchen table). But why?

Because of the reality that math is unfortunately taught extremely poorly in American schools, (FCPS not being that different, outside perhaps a few schools and/or teachers). Many parents who realize this then come to the logical conclusion that kids can learn math at home/via enrichment much more thoroughly. It's a sad situation, but there's no easy fix, it's cultural and would likely take generations to fix the way math is taught in schools.

Math is taught just fine if you look at the advanced cohort. The biggest difference compared to international students is how early other countries track students to the trades and away from math.

I don't agree, the advanced cohort in this area has been learning more math from out of school enrichment activities, so you cannot just say that math is taught fine in school. If you want simple proof, all you have to do is look at the worksheets and type of material the children work on in school, and you will quickly realize how bad it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other option is to have her start taking an online algebra class at home like AOPS or there are plenty of really good homeschool algebra programs. She takes algebra at home while taking pre-algebra/math 7 next year. In 8th she takes honors algebra and gets an easy A since she will have already taken algebra and keeps studying topics into algebra 2.

Then she takes geometry the summer between 8th and 9th. In 9th she has caught up to the students who took algebra in 7th. Except she has taken more algebra without having a gap of a year like the student who took geometry in 8th. And has studied some topics from algebra 2. This worked for my child who then got an A in 9th honors algebra 2 while some other students struggled who were advanced into algebra in 7th.

I think this would require taking geometry at home in 8th grade so that she isn't expected to learn a year's worth of math over the summer. It's also a shame that a student who has already taken algebra and can demonstrate their knowledge would need to retake the class.

This is true but not as bad as you think.

The Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2 sequence is absolutely terrible. You should do both Algebra and Geometry every year.
So you are in good shape to spend school time reviewing easy Algebra 1 for fluency, and spend home time learning Geometry (lots of high-quality low-cost options) before getting summer credit

Many of the top students do this. It's also better, pedagogically, for your student to learn at their own pace first, and use the school pace later for review, instead of jumping ahead in school where now they have a high-stakes commitment to keep up with school pace.

This is a strange way to look at school. Where did this idea come from, that school is not for learning but is only for getting high grades? Teachers teach material, kids don't have to prelearn it. Their parents think they should so they preteach it (either through a class or at the kitchen table). But why?

Because DS is bored with math at school and wants do dive deeper and move more quickly. Is it realy that different then allowing a kid who loves to read to read books above their grade level or a kid who loves music to take lessons outside of school or a kid who loves psorts to play a sport outside of PE? For some reason we have this weird idea that it is ok for kids to be really interested in doing a lot of activities outside of school but once those activities are math or science based people think it is pushy.

Encourage a kid to read or write for fun and all is well. Encourage a kid to do math for fun and you are a tiger parent.

It is easier for schools to deal with advanced readers and writers, you place the child in the top reading group and you allow them to read what they want when they finish their school work. It is harder to deal with a kid who is advanced in math because group work rarely is enough. But that doesn't mean that parents with kids who love math should not support that love. Or that parents with kids who are good at math and bored at school shouldn't find a way to engage their child in math.

You are saying that your DC enjoys math classes and that's why he takes them. But that's not what the PPP is about - it says that it is better pedagogically for a student to prelearn rather than learn in school because school is paced and graded. That's anxiety-speak. It's purely about not trusting schools or your children or their future. It doesn't have anything to do with enjoying math enrichment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Running the numbers at the VA DOE SOL Score site:

There were 1,680 7th graders who took Algebra 1, 1,158 passed advanced, 514 passed, and 8 failed the SOL. Centers are bolded. Center schools will pull students from base MS whihc will explain why some base schools have a lot fewer kids in Algebra 1, particularly those feeding Carson, Longfellow, Frost, Kimer, and Cooper.

Carson Middle 7 Algebra I 228
Longfellow Middle 7 Algebra I 166
Frost Middle 7 Algebra I 128
Kilmer Middle 7 Algebra I 128
Rocky Run Middle 7 Algebra I 128
Cooper Middle 7 Algebra I 125
Thoreau Middle 7 Algebra I 89
Johnson Middle 7 Algebra I 87
Lake Braddock 7 Algebra I 78
Jackson Middle 7 Algebra I 68
Glasgow Middle 7 Algebra I 62
Twain Middle 7 Algebra I 61
Irving Middle 7 Algebra I 51
Hughes Middle 7 Algebra I 47
Sandburg Middle 7 Algebra I 41
Robinson Secondary 7 Algebra I 36
South County Middle 7 Algebra I 35
Franklin Middle 7 Algebra I 27
Holmes Middle 7 Algebra I 23
Liberty Middle 7 Algebra I 22
Whitman Middle 7 Algebra I 18
Hayfield Secondary 7 Algebra I 14
Herndon Middle 7 Algebra I 11
Key Middle 7 Algebra I <
Poe Middle 7 Algebra I <
Stone Middle 7 Algebra I <

The fact that the vast majority pass advanced or passed implies the existing cutoffs do a good job identifying kids who will do well.

Or it just implies that SOLs are a very poor measure of mathematical understanding.

I don’t understand this comment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other option is to have her start taking an online algebra class at home like AOPS or there are plenty of really good homeschool algebra programs. She takes algebra at home while taking pre-algebra/math 7 next year. In 8th she takes honors algebra and gets an easy A since she will have already taken algebra and keeps studying topics into algebra 2.

Then she takes geometry the summer between 8th and 9th. In 9th she has caught up to the students who took algebra in 7th. Except she has taken more algebra without having a gap of a year like the student who took geometry in 8th. And has studied some topics from algebra 2. This worked for my child who then got an A in 9th honors algebra 2 while some other students struggled who were advanced into algebra in 7th.

I think this would require taking geometry at home in 8th grade so that she isn't expected to learn a year's worth of math over the summer. It's also a shame that a student who has already taken algebra and can demonstrate their knowledge would need to retake the class.

This is true but not as bad as you think.

The Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2 sequence is absolutely terrible. You should do both Algebra and Geometry every year.
So you are in good shape to spend school time reviewing easy Algebra 1 for fluency, and spend home time learning Geometry (lots of high-quality low-cost options) before getting summer credit

Many of the top students do this. It's also better, pedagogically, for your student to learn at their own pace first, and use the school pace later for review, instead of jumping ahead in school where now they have a high-stakes commitment to keep up with school pace.

This is a strange way to look at school. Where did this idea come from, that school is not for learning but is only for getting high grades? Teachers teach material, kids don't have to prelearn it. Their parents think they should so they preteach it (either through a class or at the kitchen table). But why?

Because of the reality that math is unfortunately taught extremely poorly in American schools, (FCPS not being that different, outside perhaps a few schools and/or teachers). Many parents who realize this then come to the logical conclusion that kids can learn math at home/via enrichment much more thoroughly. It's a sad situation, but there's no easy fix, it's cultural and would likely take generations to fix the way math is taught in schools.

Math is taught just fine if you look at the advanced cohort. The biggest difference compared to international students is how early other countries track students to the trades and away from math.

I don't agree, the advanced cohort in this area has been learning more math from out of school enrichment activities, so you cannot just say that math is taught fine in school. If you want simple proof, all you have to do is look at the worksheets and type of material the children work on in school, and you will quickly realize how bad it is.

All 1500 of them? Really? No, just some kids (possibly yours?). There are plenty of advanced math kids who learn math (gasp!) in school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other option is to have her start taking an online algebra class at home like AOPS or there are plenty of really good homeschool algebra programs. She takes algebra at home while taking pre-algebra/math 7 next year. In 8th she takes honors algebra and gets an easy A since she will have already taken algebra and keeps studying topics into algebra 2.

Then she takes geometry the summer between 8th and 9th. In 9th she has caught up to the students who took algebra in 7th. Except she has taken more algebra without having a gap of a year like the student who took geometry in 8th. And has studied some topics from algebra 2. This worked for my child who then got an A in 9th honors algebra 2 while some other students struggled who were advanced into algebra in 7th.

I think this would require taking geometry at home in 8th grade so that she isn't expected to learn a year's worth of math over the summer. It's also a shame that a student who has already taken algebra and can demonstrate their knowledge would need to retake the class.

This is true but not as bad as you think.

The Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2 sequence is absolutely terrible. You should do both Algebra and Geometry every year.
So you are in good shape to spend school time reviewing easy Algebra 1 for fluency, and spend home time learning Geometry (lots of high-quality low-cost options) before getting summer credit

Many of the top students do this. It's also better, pedagogically, for your student to learn at their own pace first, and use the school pace later for review, instead of jumping ahead in school where now they have a high-stakes commitment to keep up with school pace.

This is a strange way to look at school. Where did this idea come from, that school is not for learning but is only for getting high grades? Teachers teach material, kids don't have to prelearn it. Their parents think they should so they preteach it (either through a class or at the kitchen table). But why?

Because of the reality that math is unfortunately taught extremely poorly in American schools, (FCPS not being that different, outside perhaps a few schools and/or teachers). Many parents who realize this then come to the logical conclusion that kids can learn math at home/via enrichment much more thoroughly. It's a sad situation, but there's no easy fix, it's cultural and would likely take generations to fix the way math is taught in schools.

Math is taught just fine if you look at the advanced cohort. The biggest difference compared to international students is how early other countries track students to the trades and away from math.

I don't agree, the advanced cohort in this area has been learning more math from out of school enrichment activities, so you cannot just say that math is taught fine in school. If you want simple proof, all you have to do is look at the worksheets and type of material the children work on in school, and you will quickly realize how bad it is.

And the Japanese, Chinese, and South Korean students their scores are compared when people talk about how bad US education is don't attend outside classes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Running the numbers at the VA DOE SOL Score site:

There were 1,680 7th graders who took Algebra 1, 1,158 passed advanced, 514 passed, and 8 failed the SOL. Centers are bolded. Center schools will pull students from base MS whihc will explain why some base schools have a lot fewer kids in Algebra 1, particularly those feeding Carson, Longfellow, Frost, Kimer, and Cooper.

Carson Middle 7 Algebra I 228
Longfellow Middle 7 Algebra I 166
Frost Middle 7 Algebra I 128
Kilmer Middle 7 Algebra I 128
Rocky Run Middle 7 Algebra I 128
Cooper Middle 7 Algebra I 125
Thoreau Middle 7 Algebra I 89
Johnson Middle 7 Algebra I 87
Lake Braddock 7 Algebra I 78
Jackson Middle 7 Algebra I 68
Glasgow Middle 7 Algebra I 62
Twain Middle 7 Algebra I 61
Irving Middle 7 Algebra I 51
Hughes Middle 7 Algebra I 47
Sandburg Middle 7 Algebra I 41
Robinson Secondary 7 Algebra I 36
South County Middle 7 Algebra I 35
Franklin Middle 7 Algebra I 27
Holmes Middle 7 Algebra I 23
Liberty Middle 7 Algebra I 22
Whitman Middle 7 Algebra I 18
Hayfield Secondary 7 Algebra I 14
Herndon Middle 7 Algebra I 11
Key Middle 7 Algebra I <
Poe Middle 7 Algebra I <
Stone Middle 7 Algebra I <

The fact that the vast majority pass advanced or passed implies the existing cutoffs do a good job identifying kids who will do well.

Or it just implies that SOLs are a very poor measure of mathematical understanding.

Sure, if you cannot abandon the narrative that students are bad at math. Take a look at the SOL questions. Do they seem that poor to you? Or are they a reasonably accurate measure of math mastery?

The questions are very poor and are multiple choice, it is not a recipe for measuring understanding, only measuring mostly procedure.

Kids are naturally good at logical reasoning, but math in US schools is not focused on logical reasoning, only procedures. Of course if kids are conditioned to focus on procedures and steps, they will slowly forget how to reason. So it is not the kids fault, but rather the fault of the system. It's a system that focuses on breadth and acceleration vs depth and understanding, it focuses on speed and getting the answer correct quickly vs explaining why that answer is true, or where did it come from, it is a system where teachers who actually want to teach logical reasoning and train students to think, are forced to run away from due to realizing that they have no autonomy to utilize their expertise in math, it is a system where teachers are trained to primarily "manage" kids and classrooms and secondarily to teach, it is a system where most schools and admins have sold out to various tech companies for screen based programs, funneling lots of money that could be used to hire talented teachers and specialists. Of course when this type of teaching environment is the norm, authentic learning suffers. It's no surprise that the lucky parents who are aware of all these things and have the time and resources, will find any another way for their kids to learn.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other option is to have her start taking an online algebra class at home like AOPS or there are plenty of really good homeschool algebra programs. She takes algebra at home while taking pre-algebra/math 7 next year. In 8th she takes honors algebra and gets an easy A since she will have already taken algebra and keeps studying topics into algebra 2.

Then she takes geometry the summer between 8th and 9th. In 9th she has caught up to the students who took algebra in 7th. Except she has taken more algebra without having a gap of a year like the student who took geometry in 8th. And has studied some topics from algebra 2. This worked for my child who then got an A in 9th honors algebra 2 while some other students struggled who were advanced into algebra in 7th.

I think this would require taking geometry at home in 8th grade so that she isn't expected to learn a year's worth of math over the summer. It's also a shame that a student who has already taken algebra and can demonstrate their knowledge would need to retake the class.

This is true but not as bad as you think.

The Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2 sequence is absolutely terrible. You should do both Algebra and Geometry every year.
So you are in good shape to spend school time reviewing easy Algebra 1 for fluency, and spend home time learning Geometry (lots of high-quality low-cost options) before getting summer credit

Many of the top students do this. It's also better, pedagogically, for your student to learn at their own pace first, and use the school pace later for review, instead of jumping ahead in school where now they have a high-stakes commitment to keep up with school pace.

This is a strange way to look at school. Where did this idea come from, that school is not for learning but is only for getting high grades? Teachers teach material, kids don't have to prelearn it. Their parents think they should so they preteach it (either through a class or at the kitchen table). But why?

Because of the reality that math is unfortunately taught extremely poorly in American schools, (FCPS not being that different, outside perhaps a few schools and/or teachers). Many parents who realize this then come to the logical conclusion that kids can learn math at home/via enrichment much more thoroughly. It's a sad situation, but there's no easy fix, it's cultural and would likely take generations to fix the way math is taught in schools.

Math is taught just fine if you look at the advanced cohort. The biggest difference compared to international students is how early other countries track students to the trades and away from math.

+1.

It's also true that if you move away from the narrative that good teaching can level the ability playing field, you realize that it's OK for an advanced cohort that is (heresy alert) good at math to exist and that some kids are just never going to grasp differential equations, just like my short 4th grader is never going to be Caitlin Clark.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Running the numbers at the VA DOE SOL Score site:

There were 1,680 7th graders who took Algebra 1, 1,158 passed advanced, 514 passed, and 8 failed the SOL. Centers are bolded. Center schools will pull students from base MS whihc will explain why some base schools have a lot fewer kids in Algebra 1, particularly those feeding Carson, Longfellow, Frost, Kimer, and Cooper.

Carson Middle 7 Algebra I 228
Longfellow Middle 7 Algebra I 166
Frost Middle 7 Algebra I 128
Kilmer Middle 7 Algebra I 128
Rocky Run Middle 7 Algebra I 128
Cooper Middle 7 Algebra I 125
Thoreau Middle 7 Algebra I 89
Johnson Middle 7 Algebra I 87
Lake Braddock 7 Algebra I 78
Jackson Middle 7 Algebra I 68
Glasgow Middle 7 Algebra I 62
Twain Middle 7 Algebra I 61
Irving Middle 7 Algebra I 51
Hughes Middle 7 Algebra I 47
Sandburg Middle 7 Algebra I 41
Robinson Secondary 7 Algebra I 36
South County Middle 7 Algebra I 35
Franklin Middle 7 Algebra I 27
Holmes Middle 7 Algebra I 23
Liberty Middle 7 Algebra I 22
Whitman Middle 7 Algebra I 18
Hayfield Secondary 7 Algebra I 14
Herndon Middle 7 Algebra I 11
Key Middle 7 Algebra I <
Poe Middle 7 Algebra I <
Stone Middle 7 Algebra I <

The fact that the vast majority pass advanced or passed implies the existing cutoffs do a good job identifying kids who will do well.

Or it just implies that SOLs are a very poor measure of mathematical understanding.

Sure, if you cannot abandon the narrative that students are bad at math. Take a look at the SOL questions. Do they seem that poor to you? Or are they a reasonably accurate measure of math mastery?

The questions are very poor and are multiple choice, it is not a recipe for measuring understanding, only measuring mostly procedure.

Kids are naturally good at logical reasoning, but math in US schools is not focused on logical reasoning, only procedures. Of course if kids are conditioned to focus on procedures and steps, they will slowly forget how to reason. So it is not the kids fault, but rather the fault of the system. It's a system that focuses on breadth and acceleration vs depth and understanding, it focuses on speed and getting the answer correct quickly vs explaining why that answer is true, or where did it come from, it is a system where teachers who actually want to teach logical reasoning and train students to think, are forced to run away from due to realizing that they have no autonomy to utilize their expertise in math, it is a system where teachers are trained to primarily "manage" kids and classrooms and secondarily to teach, it is a system where most schools and admins have sold out to various tech companies for screen based programs, funneling lots of money that could be used to hire talented teachers and specialists. Of course when this type of teaching environment is the norm, authentic learning suffers. It's no surprise that the lucky parents who are aware of all these things and have the time and resources, will find any another way for their kids to learn.

Hard disagree that current FCPS math instruction focuses on proceedures. For some kids I know the problem has been that there's not enough focus on the algorithms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other option is to have her start taking an online algebra class at home like AOPS or there are plenty of really good homeschool algebra programs. She takes algebra at home while taking pre-algebra/math 7 next year. In 8th she takes honors algebra and gets an easy A since she will have already taken algebra and keeps studying topics into algebra 2.

Then she takes geometry the summer between 8th and 9th. In 9th she has caught up to the students who took algebra in 7th. Except she has taken more algebra without having a gap of a year like the student who took geometry in 8th. And has studied some topics from algebra 2. This worked for my child who then got an A in 9th honors algebra 2 while some other students struggled who were advanced into algebra in 7th.

I think this would require taking geometry at home in 8th grade so that she isn't expected to learn a year's worth of math over the summer. It's also a shame that a student who has already taken algebra and can demonstrate their knowledge would need to retake the class.

This is true but not as bad as you think.

The Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2 sequence is absolutely terrible. You should do both Algebra and Geometry every year.
So you are in good shape to spend school time reviewing easy Algebra 1 for fluency, and spend home time learning Geometry (lots of high-quality low-cost options) before getting summer credit

Many of the top students do this. It's also better, pedagogically, for your student to learn at their own pace first, and use the school pace later for review, instead of jumping ahead in school where now they have a high-stakes commitment to keep up with school pace.

This is a strange way to look at school. Where did this idea come from, that school is not for learning but is only for getting high grades? Teachers teach material, kids don't have to prelearn it. Their parents think they should so they preteach it (either through a class or at the kitchen table). But why?

Because of the reality that math is unfortunately taught extremely poorly in American schools, (FCPS not being that different, outside perhaps a few schools and/or teachers). Many parents who realize this then come to the logical conclusion that kids can learn math at home/via enrichment much more thoroughly. It's a sad situation, but there's no easy fix, it's cultural and would likely take generations to fix the way math is taught in schools.

Math is taught just fine if you look at the advanced cohort. The biggest difference compared to international students is how early other countries track students to the trades and away from math.

I don't agree, the advanced cohort in this area has been learning more math from out of school enrichment activities, so you cannot just say that math is taught fine in school. If you want simple proof, all you have to do is look at the worksheets and type of material the children work on in school, and you will quickly realize how bad it is.

All 1500 of them? Really? No, just some kids (possibly yours?). There are plenty of advanced math kids who learn math (gasp!) in school.

Not all of them obviously, but most. Even starker, filter the data on race and income, especially in the pass advanced group, and you will quickly understand how much cultural upbringing plays a role in these results. What is being learned in school is only a small part of the story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other option is to have her start taking an online algebra class at home like AOPS or there are plenty of really good homeschool algebra programs. She takes algebra at home while taking pre-algebra/math 7 next year. In 8th she takes honors algebra and gets an easy A since she will have already taken algebra and keeps studying topics into algebra 2.

Then she takes geometry the summer between 8th and 9th. In 9th she has caught up to the students who took algebra in 7th. Except she has taken more algebra without having a gap of a year like the student who took geometry in 8th. And has studied some topics from algebra 2. This worked for my child who then got an A in 9th honors algebra 2 while some other students struggled who were advanced into algebra in 7th.

I think this would require taking geometry at home in 8th grade so that she isn't expected to learn a year's worth of math over the summer. It's also a shame that a student who has already taken algebra and can demonstrate their knowledge would need to retake the class.

This is true but not as bad as you think.

The Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2 sequence is absolutely terrible. You should do both Algebra and Geometry every year.
So you are in good shape to spend school time reviewing easy Algebra 1 for fluency, and spend home time learning Geometry (lots of high-quality low-cost options) before getting summer credit

Many of the top students do this. It's also better, pedagogically, for your student to learn at their own pace first, and use the school pace later for review, instead of jumping ahead in school where now they have a high-stakes commitment to keep up with school pace.

This is a strange way to look at school. Where did this idea come from, that school is not for learning but is only for getting high grades? Teachers teach material, kids don't have to prelearn it. Their parents think they should so they preteach it (either through a class or at the kitchen table). But why?

Because of the reality that math is unfortunately taught extremely poorly in American schools, (FCPS not being that different, outside perhaps a few schools and/or teachers). Many parents who realize this then come to the logical conclusion that kids can learn math at home/via enrichment much more thoroughly. It's a sad situation, but there's no easy fix, it's cultural and would likely take generations to fix the way math is taught in schools.

Math is taught just fine if you look at the advanced cohort. The biggest difference compared to international students is how early other countries track students to the trades and away from math.

+1.

It's also true that if you move away from the narrative that good teaching can level the ability playing field, you realize that it's OK for an advanced cohort that is (heresy alert) good at math to exist and that some kids are just never going to grasp differential equations, just like my short 4th grader is never going to be Caitlin Clark.

That's very reductive reasoning. Differential equations is simply one of many mathematical subjects that is used in science, engineering, and many other areas of life. One does not even have to be a pure math major to encounter it. Millions of people use it in some form. The comparison to sports (and to a superstar) is completely meaningless. You need to have a higher bar for your child. You really can't predict that they will not be able to understand basic college math at this age; by saying that you are setting them up to live to your expectation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Running the numbers at the VA DOE SOL Score site:

There were 1,680 7th graders who took Algebra 1, 1,158 passed advanced, 514 passed, and 8 failed the SOL. Centers are bolded. Center schools will pull students from base MS whihc will explain why some base schools have a lot fewer kids in Algebra 1, particularly those feeding Carson, Longfellow, Frost, Kimer, and Cooper.

Carson Middle 7 Algebra I 228
Longfellow Middle 7 Algebra I 166
Frost Middle 7 Algebra I 128
Kilmer Middle 7 Algebra I 128
Rocky Run Middle 7 Algebra I 128
Cooper Middle 7 Algebra I 125
Thoreau Middle 7 Algebra I 89
Johnson Middle 7 Algebra I 87
Lake Braddock 7 Algebra I 78
Jackson Middle 7 Algebra I 68
Glasgow Middle 7 Algebra I 62
Twain Middle 7 Algebra I 61
Irving Middle 7 Algebra I 51
Hughes Middle 7 Algebra I 47
Sandburg Middle 7 Algebra I 41
Robinson Secondary 7 Algebra I 36
South County Middle 7 Algebra I 35
Franklin Middle 7 Algebra I 27
Holmes Middle 7 Algebra I 23
Liberty Middle 7 Algebra I 22
Whitman Middle 7 Algebra I 18
Hayfield Secondary 7 Algebra I 14
Herndon Middle 7 Algebra I 11
Key Middle 7 Algebra I <
Poe Middle 7 Algebra I <
Stone Middle 7 Algebra I <

The fact that the vast majority pass advanced or passed implies the existing cutoffs do a good job identifying kids who will do well.

Or it just implies that SOLs are a very poor measure of mathematical understanding.

Sure, if you cannot abandon the narrative that students are bad at math. Take a look at the SOL questions. Do they seem that poor to you? Or are they a reasonably accurate measure of math mastery?

The questions are very poor and are multiple choice, it is not a recipe for measuring understanding, only measuring mostly procedure.

Kids are naturally good at logical reasoning, but math in US schools is not focused on logical reasoning, only procedures. Of course if kids are conditioned to focus on procedures and steps, they will slowly forget how to reason. So it is not the kids fault, but rather the fault of the system. It's a system that focuses on breadth and acceleration vs depth and understanding, it focuses on speed and getting the answer correct quickly vs explaining why that answer is true, or where did it come from, it is a system where teachers who actually want to teach logical reasoning and train students to think, are forced to run away from due to realizing that they have no autonomy to utilize their expertise in math, it is a system where teachers are trained to primarily "manage" kids and classrooms and secondarily to teach, it is a system where most schools and admins have sold out to various tech companies for screen based programs, funneling lots of money that could be used to hire talented teachers and specialists. Of course when this type of teaching environment is the norm, authentic learning suffers. It's no surprise that the lucky parents who are aware of all these things and have the time and resources, will find any another way for their kids to learn.

Hard disagree that current FCPS math instruction focuses on proceedures. For some kids I know the problem has been that there's not enough focus on the algorithms.

On the contrary, in my experience all they've done in elementary school is algorithms and repetition. They forced them to solve division and multiplication problems in endless worksheets until they rebelled or cried. It's called drill and kill for a reason.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other option is to have her start taking an online algebra class at home like AOPS or there are plenty of really good homeschool algebra programs. She takes algebra at home while taking pre-algebra/math 7 next year. In 8th she takes honors algebra and gets an easy A since she will have already taken algebra and keeps studying topics into algebra 2.

Then she takes geometry the summer between 8th and 9th. In 9th she has caught up to the students who took algebra in 7th. Except she has taken more algebra without having a gap of a year like the student who took geometry in 8th. And has studied some topics from algebra 2. This worked for my child who then got an A in 9th honors algebra 2 while some other students struggled who were advanced into algebra in 7th.

I think this would require taking geometry at home in 8th grade so that she isn't expected to learn a year's worth of math over the summer. It's also a shame that a student who has already taken algebra and can demonstrate their knowledge would need to retake the class.

This is true but not as bad as you think.

The Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2 sequence is absolutely terrible. You should do both Algebra and Geometry every year.
So you are in good shape to spend school time reviewing easy Algebra 1 for fluency, and spend home time learning Geometry (lots of high-quality low-cost options) before getting summer credit

Many of the top students do this. It's also better, pedagogically, for your student to learn at their own pace first, and use the school pace later for review, instead of jumping ahead in school where now they have a high-stakes commitment to keep up with school pace.

This is a strange way to look at school. Where did this idea come from, that school is not for learning but is only for getting high grades? Teachers teach material, kids don't have to prelearn it. Their parents think they should so they preteach it (either through a class or at the kitchen table). But why?

Because of the reality that math is unfortunately taught extremely poorly in American schools, (FCPS not being that different, outside perhaps a few schools and/or teachers). Many parents who realize this then come to the logical conclusion that kids can learn math at home/via enrichment much more thoroughly. It's a sad situation, but there's no easy fix, it's cultural and would likely take generations to fix the way math is taught in schools.

Math is taught just fine if you look at the advanced cohort. The biggest difference compared to international students is how early other countries track students to the trades and away from math.

I don't agree, the advanced cohort in this area has been learning more math from out of school enrichment activities, so you cannot just say that math is taught fine in school. If you want simple proof, all you have to do is look at the worksheets and type of material the children work on in school, and you will quickly realize how bad it is.

Some have and some have not. My kids Advanced Math class has three kids that discuss doing math enrichment, the rest don't or don't discuss it. The math club at his school only has 4 6th graders and only one of them, my kid, does math outside of school. I know two kids who scored in the 99th percentile on the IAAT who have not done any outside math enrichment. One of DS friends who does very well in Advanced Math is very open in thinking it is crazy that he enjoys math competitions and does them for fun.

DS attends RSM and the classes meet just about every stereotype that you can come up with. They are mainly male, mostly Indian, Chinese, Japanese, and Korean. There are probably other Asian countries represented but those are the languages I recognize. The European looking families that I see are speaking in what sounds like Russian or some type of Slavic language.

There are probably schools were there are far more kids in math enrichment, I would guess the ES and MS Centers, so parents at those schools might feel more pressure for their kids to be enrolled in enrichment. There is a cultural element at play and we would be crazy to not admit that. But there are a good number of kids who will never take a math enrichment class and do well in higher level math in school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other option is to have her start taking an online algebra class at home like AOPS or there are plenty of really good homeschool algebra programs. She takes algebra at home while taking pre-algebra/math 7 next year. In 8th she takes honors algebra and gets an easy A since she will have already taken algebra and keeps studying topics into algebra 2.

Then she takes geometry the summer between 8th and 9th. In 9th she has caught up to the students who took algebra in 7th. Except she has taken more algebra without having a gap of a year like the student who took geometry in 8th. And has studied some topics from algebra 2. This worked for my child who then got an A in 9th honors algebra 2 while some other students struggled who were advanced into algebra in 7th.

I think this would require taking geometry at home in 8th grade so that she isn't expected to learn a year's worth of math over the summer. It's also a shame that a student who has already taken algebra and can demonstrate their knowledge would need to retake the class.

This is true but not as bad as you think.

The Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2 sequence is absolutely terrible. You should do both Algebra and Geometry every year.
So you are in good shape to spend school time reviewing easy Algebra 1 for fluency, and spend home time learning Geometry (lots of high-quality low-cost options) before getting summer credit

Many of the top students do this. It's also better, pedagogically, for your student to learn at their own pace first, and use the school pace later for review, instead of jumping ahead in school where now they have a high-stakes commitment to keep up with school pace.

This is a strange way to look at school. Where did this idea come from, that school is not for learning but is only for getting high grades? Teachers teach material, kids don't have to prelearn it. Their parents think they should so they preteach it (either through a class or at the kitchen table). But why?

Because of the reality that math is unfortunately taught extremely poorly in American schools, (FCPS not being that different, outside perhaps a few schools and/or teachers). Many parents who realize this then come to the logical conclusion that kids can learn math at home/via enrichment much more thoroughly. It's a sad situation, but there's no easy fix, it's cultural and would likely take generations to fix the way math is taught in schools.

Math is taught just fine if you look at the advanced cohort. The biggest difference compared to international students is how early other countries track students to the trades and away from math.

+1.

It's also true that if you move away from the narrative that good teaching can level the ability playing field, you realize that it's OK for an advanced cohort that is (heresy alert) good at math to exist and that some kids are just never going to grasp differential equations, just like my short 4th grader is never going to be Caitlin Clark.

That's very reductive reasoning. Differential equations is simply one of many mathematical subjects that is used in science, engineering, and many other areas of life. One does not even have to be a pure math major to encounter it. Millions of people use it in some form. The comparison to sports (and to a superstar) is completely meaningless. You need to have a higher bar for your child. You really can't predict that they will not be able to understand basic college math at this age; by saying that you are setting them up to live to your expectation.

You can be very successful in life without math above Algebra 2. Only 35% of the US population has a college degree. I would guess that most of the people without a college degree have not had calculus. It is fine for a child to take Algebra in 8th or even 9th grade. Most people don't need calculus and that is ok. We should have calculus classes in HS for the kids who are able to take those classes and want to take those classes. I have a PhD in a social science and have never taken Calculus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other option is to have her start taking an online algebra class at home like AOPS or there are plenty of really good homeschool algebra programs. She takes algebra at home while taking pre-algebra/math 7 next year. In 8th she takes honors algebra and gets an easy A since she will have already taken algebra and keeps studying topics into algebra 2.

Then she takes geometry the summer between 8th and 9th. In 9th she has caught up to the students who took algebra in 7th. Except she has taken more algebra without having a gap of a year like the student who took geometry in 8th. And has studied some topics from algebra 2. This worked for my child who then got an A in 9th honors algebra 2 while some other students struggled who were advanced into algebra in 7th.

I think this would require taking geometry at home in 8th grade so that she isn't expected to learn a year's worth of math over the summer. It's also a shame that a student who has already taken algebra and can demonstrate their knowledge would need to retake the class.

This is true but not as bad as you think.

The Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2 sequence is absolutely terrible. You should do both Algebra and Geometry every year.
So you are in good shape to spend school time reviewing easy Algebra 1 for fluency, and spend home time learning Geometry (lots of high-quality low-cost options) before getting summer credit

Many of the top students do this. It's also better, pedagogically, for your student to learn at their own pace first, and use the school pace later for review, instead of jumping ahead in school where now they have a high-stakes commitment to keep up with school pace.

This is a strange way to look at school. Where did this idea come from, that school is not for learning but is only for getting high grades? Teachers teach material, kids don't have to prelearn it. Their parents think they should so they preteach it (either through a class or at the kitchen table). But why?

Because of the reality that math is unfortunately taught extremely poorly in American schools, (FCPS not being that different, outside perhaps a few schools and/or teachers). Many parents who realize this then come to the logical conclusion that kids can learn math at home/via enrichment much more thoroughly. It's a sad situation, but there's no easy fix, it's cultural and would likely take generations to fix the way math is taught in schools.

Math is taught just fine if you look at the advanced cohort. The biggest difference compared to international students is how early other countries track students to the trades and away from math.

They are not just tracking kids away from math but all college prep type classes. That is my issue with the European system, it tracks kids into trades too early and does not have systems in place to provide scaffolding for kids capable of college but with learning issues. I don't think every kid needs to go to college and I think the US needs to do a better job of providing a trades path for kids not interested in college, but I think there is a middle ground between the US system and the European system. The US system is too focused on college.

US system provides trade path for kids not interested in college, but equity considerations run counter to this personal choice. A kid that spends more time on practicing math is putting another kid who is not spending time on math at a disadvantage. So not just the one kid practicing math needs to be stopped, but every other kid that looks like them needs to be stopped too. Only then equity can be achieved.