UMD or W&M

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think they are equal in reputation so would let student pick which they prefer, assuming cost is similar.

They absolutely aren't

You're right. UMD is ranked higher (46) than WM (53).
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

And yet, according to Parchment, when applicants are admitted to both, they choose W&M over UMD-CP 70% to 30%. Revealed preference tells us a lot more than pseudoscience rankings.

preferences can be about many things, and not necessarily about academics.

Yes, but what makes a university “better” than another if not the revealed preference of a population who can choose between them? What you think is important is NOT the only criteria in evaluating a university. And there is no way accurate way to measure the “academics” between the two in a way that you can say flatly one is stronger than the other. Sure UMD is bigger and offers things that W&M does not, but what W&M does do I think it does quite well.

Certainly, it depends on when and who took the survey, and what their majors are.

Harvard is the most popular on parchment, but a serious student would choose UMD over Harvard for CS.

Parchment also shows Michigan State as top 20 most popular. You think an Econ major would choose Mich State over W&M?

Also, the stats on parchment for the colleges are almost 10 years old. A lot has changed in 10 years.

On what basis are you making that assertion?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think they are equal in reputation so would let student pick which they prefer, assuming cost is similar.

They absolutely aren't

You're right. UMD is ranked higher (46) than WM (53).
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

And yet, according to Parchment, when applicants are admitted to both, they choose W&M over UMD-CP 70% to 30%. Revealed preference tells us a lot more than pseudoscience rankings.

preferences can be about many things, and not necessarily about academics.

Yes, but what makes a university “better” than another if not the revealed preference of a population who can choose between them? What you think is important is NOT the only criteria in evaluating a university. And there is no way accurate way to measure the “academics” between the two in a way that you can say flatly one is stronger than the other. Sure UMD is bigger and offers things that W&M does not, but what W&M does do I think it does quite well.

Certainly, it depends on when and who took the survey, and what their majors are.

Harvard is the most popular on parchment, but a serious student would choose UMD over Harvard for CS.

Parchment also shows Michigan State as top 20 most popular. You think an Econ major would choose Mich State over W&M?

Also, the stats on parchment for the colleges are almost 10 years old. A lot has changed in 10 years.

On what basis are you making that assertion?

The many high stats CS students I know, and yes, rankings.

For example, the number of published papers in CS coming out colleges: Harvard isn't on the list but UMD is.

https://csrankings.org/#/index?all&us

That list changes month to month but only slightly because it's based on the publications. But UMD is always somewhere on that list, and Harvard is not.

Look up most CS rankings.. Harvard is usually not up there. Harvard has the name prestige, but it's not really known for a top CS program.

I have a friend who went to Harvard for law; their DC is a CS major, and they didn't think their DC should apply to Harvard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think they are equal in reputation so would let student pick which they prefer, assuming cost is similar.

They absolutely aren't

You're right. UMD is ranked higher (46) than WM (53).
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

And yet, according to Parchment, when applicants are admitted to both, they choose W&M over UMD-CP 70% to 30%. Revealed preference tells us a lot more than pseudoscience rankings.

preferences can be about many things, and not necessarily about academics.

Yes, but what makes a university “better” than another if not the revealed preference of a population who can choose between them? What you think is important is NOT the only criteria in evaluating a university. And there is no way accurate way to measure the “academics” between the two in a way that you can say flatly one is stronger than the other. Sure UMD is bigger and offers things that W&M does not, but what W&M does do I think it does quite well.

Certainly, it depends on when and who took the survey, and what their majors are.

Harvard is the most popular on parchment, but a serious student would choose UMD over Harvard for CS.

Parchment also shows Michigan State as top 20 most popular. You think an Econ major would choose Mich State over W&M?

Also, the stats on parchment for the colleges are almost 10 years old. A lot has changed in 10 years.

On what basis are you making that assertion?

The many high stats CS students I know, and yes, rankings.

For example, the number of published papers in CS coming out colleges: Harvard isn't on the list but UMD is.

https://csrankings.org/#/index?all&us

That list changes month to month but only slightly because it's based on the publications. But UMD is always somewhere on that list, and Harvard is not.

Look up most CS rankings.. Harvard is usually not up there. Harvard has the name prestige, but it's not really known for a top CS program.

I have a friend who went to Harvard for law; their DC is a CS major, and they didn't think their DC should apply to Harvard.

They are both ranked 17 by USNews for CS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think they are equal in reputation so would let student pick which they prefer, assuming cost is similar.

They absolutely aren't

You're right. UMD is ranked higher (46) than WM (53).
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

And yet, according to Parchment, when applicants are admitted to both, they choose W&M over UMD-CP 70% to 30%. Revealed preference tells us a lot more than pseudoscience rankings.

preferences can be about many things, and not necessarily about academics.

Yes, but what makes a university “better” than another if not the revealed preference of a population who can choose between them? What you think is important is NOT the only criteria in evaluating a university. And there is no way accurate way to measure the “academics” between the two in a way that you can say flatly one is stronger than the other. Sure UMD is bigger and offers things that W&M does not, but what W&M does do I think it does quite well.

Certainly, it depends on when and who took the survey, and what their majors are.

Harvard is the most popular on parchment, but a serious student would choose UMD over Harvard for CS.

Parchment also shows Michigan State as top 20 most popular. You think an Econ major would choose Mich State over W&M?

Also, the stats on parchment for the colleges are almost 10 years old. A lot has changed in 10 years.

On what basis are you making that assertion?

The many high stats CS students I know, and yes, rankings.

For example, the number of published papers in CS coming out colleges: Harvard isn't on the list but UMD is.

https://csrankings.org/#/index?all&us

That list changes month to month but only slightly because it's based on the publications. But UMD is always somewhere on that list, and Harvard is not.

Look up most CS rankings.. Harvard is usually not up there. Harvard has the name prestige, but it's not really known for a top CS program.

I have a friend who went to Harvard for law; their DC is a CS major, and they didn't think their DC should apply to Harvard.

Published papers just means a school has a greater graduate/research focus. Says nothing about the actual quality of the program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think they are equal in reputation so would let student pick which they prefer, assuming cost is similar.

They absolutely aren't

You're right. UMD is ranked higher (46) than WM (53).
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

And yet, according to Parchment, when applicants are admitted to both, they choose W&M over UMD-CP 70% to 30%. Revealed preference tells us a lot more than pseudoscience rankings.

preferences can be about many things, and not necessarily about academics.

Yes, but what makes a university “better” than another if not the revealed preference of a population who can choose between them? What you think is important is NOT the only criteria in evaluating a university. And there is no way accurate way to measure the “academics” between the two in a way that you can say flatly one is stronger than the other. Sure UMD is bigger and offers things that W&M does not, but what W&M does do I think it does quite well.

Certainly, it depends on when and who took the survey, and what their majors are.

Harvard is the most popular on parchment, but a serious student would choose UMD over Harvard for CS.

Parchment also shows Michigan State as top 20 most popular. You think an Econ major would choose Mich State over W&M?

Also, the stats on parchment for the colleges are almost 10 years old. A lot has changed in 10 years.

On what basis are you making that assertion?

The many high stats CS students I know, and yes, rankings.

For example, the number of published papers in CS coming out colleges: Harvard isn't on the list but UMD is.

https://csrankings.org/#/index?all&us

That list changes month to month but only slightly because it's based on the publications. But UMD is always somewhere on that list, and Harvard is not.

Look up most CS rankings.. Harvard is usually not up there. Harvard has the name prestige, but it's not really known for a top CS program.

I have a friend who went to Harvard for law; their DC is a CS major, and they didn't think their DC should apply to Harvard.

From WSJ:

Engineers who attended Harvard as undergraduates earn significantly more per year than graduates of other schools, according to a new ranking of colleges by Burning Glass, a nonprofit that researches employment trends.

The average annual engineering salary of Harvard graduates over their first 10 years in the field is $130,119. That’s a premium of nearly $40,000 a year over the median graduate’s average annual salary of $90,174. Stanford University and the California Institute of Technology are No. 2 and No. 3 on the private-school list.

UMD doesn't even make the list of top 20 public universities

Additionally from WSJ:

Graduates of Stanford University who go into tech earn higher salaries than other schools’ graduates in the field, according to a ranking compiled by the Burning Glass Institute, a nonprofit that researches employment trends. Stanford grads make an average of $151,028, followed by Harvard at $149,934. Highest public school is UC Berkeley at $140,960 and the lowest at #20 is UNC at $114,076.

Again, UMD doesn't even make the list of Top 20 public universities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think they are equal in reputation so would let student pick which they prefer, assuming cost is similar.

They absolutely aren't

You're right. UMD is ranked higher (46) than WM (53).
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

And yet, according to Parchment, when applicants are admitted to both, they choose W&M over UMD-CP 70% to 30%. Revealed preference tells us a lot more than pseudoscience rankings.

preferences can be about many things, and not necessarily about academics.

Yes, but what makes a university “better” than another if not the revealed preference of a population who can choose between them? What you think is important is NOT the only criteria in evaluating a university. And there is no way accurate way to measure the “academics” between the two in a way that you can say flatly one is stronger than the other. Sure UMD is bigger and offers things that W&M does not, but what W&M does do I think it does quite well.

Certainly, it depends on when and who took the survey, and what their majors are.

Harvard is the most popular on parchment, but a serious student would choose UMD over Harvard for CS.

Parchment also shows Michigan State as top 20 most popular. You think an Econ major would choose Mich State over W&M?

Also, the stats on parchment for the colleges are almost 10 years old. A lot has changed in 10 years.

On what basis are you making that assertion?

The many high stats CS students I know, and yes, rankings.

For example, the number of published papers in CS coming out colleges: Harvard isn't on the list but UMD is.

https://csrankings.org/#/index?all&us

That list changes month to month but only slightly because it's based on the publications. But UMD is always somewhere on that list, and Harvard is not.

Look up most CS rankings.. Harvard is usually not up there. Harvard has the name prestige, but it's not really known for a top CS program.

I have a friend who went to Harvard for law; their DC is a CS major, and they didn't think their DC should apply to Harvard.

Published papers just means a school has a greater graduate/research focus. Says nothing about the actual quality of the program.

Not to mention that churning out papers isn't even a sign of research quality--you would probably need metrics of journal quality, citations and influence to get even a bit closer to that--and then adjust by per capita faculty. And it's still not telling you much about the quality of the undergraduate program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think they are equal in reputation so would let student pick which they prefer, assuming cost is similar.

They absolutely aren't

You're right. UMD is ranked higher (46) than WM (53).
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

And yet, according to Parchment, when applicants are admitted to both, they choose W&M over UMD-CP 70% to 30%. Revealed preference tells us a lot more than pseudoscience rankings.

preferences can be about many things, and not necessarily about academics.

Yes, but what makes a university “better” than another if not the revealed preference of a population who can choose between them? What you think is important is NOT the only criteria in evaluating a university. And there is no way accurate way to measure the “academics” between the two in a way that you can say flatly one is stronger than the other. Sure UMD is bigger and offers things that W&M does not, but what W&M does do I think it does quite well.

Certainly, it depends on when and who took the survey, and what their majors are.

Harvard is the most popular on parchment, but a serious student would choose UMD over Harvard for CS.

Parchment also shows Michigan State as top 20 most popular. You think an Econ major would choose Mich State over W&M?

Also, the stats on parchment for the colleges are almost 10 years old. A lot has changed in 10 years.

On what basis are you making that assertion?

The many high stats CS students I know, and yes, rankings.

For example, the number of published papers in CS coming out colleges: Harvard isn't on the list but UMD is.

https://csrankings.org/#/index?all&us

That list changes month to month but only slightly because it's based on the publications. But UMD is always somewhere on that list, and Harvard is not.

Look up most CS rankings.. Harvard is usually not up there. Harvard has the name prestige, but it's not really known for a top CS program.

I have a friend who went to Harvard for law; their DC is a CS major, and they didn't think their DC should apply to Harvard.

Published papers just means a school has a greater graduate/research focus. Says nothing about the actual quality of the program.

You're probably correct. UMD has an inferior CS program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think they are equal in reputation so would let student pick which they prefer, assuming cost is similar.

They absolutely aren't

You're right. UMD is ranked higher (46) than WM (53).
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

And yet, according to Parchment, when applicants are admitted to both, they choose W&M over UMD-CP 70% to 30%. Revealed preference tells us a lot more than pseudoscience rankings.

preferences can be about many things, and not necessarily about academics.

Yes, but what makes a university “better” than another if not the revealed preference of a population who can choose between them? What you think is important is NOT the only criteria in evaluating a university. And there is no way accurate way to measure the “academics” between the two in a way that you can say flatly one is stronger than the other. Sure UMD is bigger and offers things that W&M does not, but what W&M does do I think it does quite well.

Certainly, it depends on when and who took the survey, and what their majors are.

Harvard is the most popular on parchment, but a serious student would choose UMD over Harvard for CS.

Parchment also shows Michigan State as top 20 most popular. You think an Econ major would choose Mich State over W&M?

Also, the stats on parchment for the colleges are almost 10 years old. A lot has changed in 10 years.

On what basis are you making that assertion?

The many high stats CS students I know, and yes, rankings.

For example, the number of published papers in CS coming out colleges: Harvard isn't on the list but UMD is.

https://csrankings.org/#/index?all&us

That list changes month to month but only slightly because it's based on the publications. But UMD is always somewhere on that list, and Harvard is not.

Look up most CS rankings.. Harvard is usually not up there. Harvard has the name prestige, but it's not really known for a top CS program.

I have a friend who went to Harvard for law; their DC is a CS major, and they didn't think their DC should apply to Harvard.

From WSJ:

Engineers who attended Harvard as undergraduates earn significantly more per year than graduates of other schools, according to a new ranking of colleges by Burning Glass, a nonprofit that researches employment trends.

The average annual engineering salary of Harvard graduates over their first 10 years in the field is $130,119. That’s a premium of nearly $40,000 a year over the median graduate’s average annual salary of $90,174. Stanford University and the California Institute of Technology are No. 2 and No. 3 on the private-school list.

UMD doesn't even make the list of top 20 public universities

Additionally from WSJ:

Graduates of Stanford University who go into tech earn higher salaries than other schools’ graduates in the field, according to a ranking compiled by the Burning Glass Institute, a nonprofit that researches employment trends. Stanford grads make an average of $151,028, followed by Harvard at $149,934. Highest public school is UC Berkeley at $140,960 and the lowest at #20 is UNC at $114,076.

Again, UMD doesn't even make the list of Top 20 public universities.

It's like why would anyone even bother attending, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC is accepted to UMD Carillon (in-state) and W&M Monroe Scholars program. Wants to be Econ major. Has a slight preference for a smaller college. Any thoughts/insights appreciated!

UMD has a T20 econ department. W&M does not. This is a no brainer.

This is the problem with ranking sites... they are so different.

https://www.collegefactual.com/majors/social-sciences/economics/rankings/top-ranked/

UMD #38
W&M #78

DP- so UMD has a better ranking econ department any way you look at it. Why would I pay OOS for WM?
This is truly a no brainer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think they are equal in reputation so would let student pick which they prefer, assuming cost is similar.

They absolutely aren't

You're right. UMD is ranked higher (46) than WM (53).
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

And yet, according to Parchment, when applicants are admitted to both, they choose W&M over UMD-CP 70% to 30%. Revealed preference tells us a lot more than pseudoscience rankings.

preferences can be about many things, and not necessarily about academics.

Yes, but what makes a university “better” than another if not the revealed preference of a population who can choose between them? What you think is important is NOT the only criteria in evaluating a university. And there is no way accurate way to measure the “academics” between the two in a way that you can say flatly one is stronger than the other. Sure UMD is bigger and offers things that W&M does not, but what W&M does do I think it does quite well.

Certainly, it depends on when and who took the survey, and what their majors are.

Harvard is the most popular on parchment, but a serious student would choose UMD over Harvard for CS.

Parchment also shows Michigan State as top 20 most popular. You think an Econ major would choose Mich State over W&M?

Also, the stats on parchment for the colleges are almost 10 years old. A lot has changed in 10 years.

On what basis are you making that assertion?

The many high stats CS students I know, and yes, rankings.

For example, the number of published papers in CS coming out colleges: Harvard isn't on the list but UMD is.

https://csrankings.org/#/index?all&us

That list changes month to month but only slightly because it's based on the publications. But UMD is always somewhere on that list, and Harvard is not.

Look up most CS rankings.. Harvard is usually not up there. Harvard has the name prestige, but it's not really known for a top CS program.

I have a friend who went to Harvard for law; their DC is a CS major, and they didn't think their DC should apply to Harvard.

From WSJ:

Engineers who attended Harvard as undergraduates earn significantly more per year than graduates of other schools, according to a new ranking of colleges by Burning Glass, a nonprofit that researches employment trends.

The average annual engineering salary of Harvard graduates over their first 10 years in the field is $130,119. That’s a premium of nearly $40,000 a year over the median graduate’s average annual salary of $90,174. Stanford University and the California Institute of Technology are No. 2 and No. 3 on the private-school list.

UMD doesn't even make the list of top 20 public universities

Additionally from WSJ:

Graduates of Stanford University who go into tech earn higher salaries than other schools’ graduates in the field, according to a ranking compiled by the Burning Glass Institute, a nonprofit that researches employment trends. Stanford grads make an average of $151,028, followed by Harvard at $149,934. Highest public school is UC Berkeley at $140,960 and the lowest at #20 is UNC at $114,076.

Again, UMD doesn't even make the list of Top 20 public universities.

It's like why would anyone even bother attending, right?

that's not what I stated. No argument that Harvard is prestigious, just not necessarily a top CS school.

Also, how much the graduate makes in a vacuum doesn't mean much. More students at Harvard come from well connected and wealthy families than students from UMD. So, it's not surprising that Harvard grads make more. Also, locality of the job plays a role in the salary. I used to work for a FAANG in SV.

Say what you like, but most serious CS students wouldn't choose Harvard for their CS program over UMD CS program. Sure, the name is more prestigious, and a student may choose Harvard for that, but the CS program is not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think they are equal in reputation so would let student pick which they prefer, assuming cost is similar.

They absolutely aren't

You're right. UMD is ranked higher (46) than WM (53).
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

And yet, according to Parchment, when applicants are admitted to both, they choose W&M over UMD-CP 70% to 30%. Revealed preference tells us a lot more than pseudoscience rankings.

preferences can be about many things, and not necessarily about academics.

Yes, but what makes a university “better” than another if not the revealed preference of a population who can choose between them? What you think is important is NOT the only criteria in evaluating a university. And there is no way accurate way to measure the “academics” between the two in a way that you can say flatly one is stronger than the other. Sure UMD is bigger and offers things that W&M does not, but what W&M does do I think it does quite well.

Certainly, it depends on when and who took the survey, and what their majors are.

Harvard is the most popular on parchment, but a serious student would choose UMD over Harvard for CS.

Parchment also shows Michigan State as top 20 most popular. You think an Econ major would choose Mich State over W&M?

Also, the stats on parchment for the colleges are almost 10 years old. A lot has changed in 10 years.

On what basis are you making that assertion?

The many high stats CS students I know, and yes, rankings.

For example, the number of published papers in CS coming out colleges: Harvard isn't on the list but UMD is.

https://csrankings.org/#/index?all&us

That list changes month to month but only slightly because it's based on the publications. But UMD is always somewhere on that list, and Harvard is not.

Look up most CS rankings.. Harvard is usually not up there. Harvard has the name prestige, but it's not really known for a top CS program.

I have a friend who went to Harvard for law; their DC is a CS major, and they didn't think their DC should apply to Harvard.

Published papers just means a school has a greater graduate/research focus. Says nothing about the actual quality of the program.

You're probably correct. UMD has an inferior CS program.

says someone not in CS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think they are equal in reputation so would let student pick which they prefer, assuming cost is similar.

They absolutely aren't

You're right. UMD is ranked higher (46) than WM (53).
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

And yet, according to Parchment, when applicants are admitted to both, they choose W&M over UMD-CP 70% to 30%. Revealed preference tells us a lot more than pseudoscience rankings.

preferences can be about many things, and not necessarily about academics.

Yes, but what makes a university “better” than another if not the revealed preference of a population who can choose between them? What you think is important is NOT the only criteria in evaluating a university. And there is no way accurate way to measure the “academics” between the two in a way that you can say flatly one is stronger than the other. Sure UMD is bigger and offers things that W&M does not, but what W&M does do I think it does quite well.

Certainly, it depends on when and who took the survey, and what their majors are.

Harvard is the most popular on parchment, but a serious student would choose UMD over Harvard for CS.

Parchment also shows Michigan State as top 20 most popular. You think an Econ major would choose Mich State over W&M?

Also, the stats on parchment for the colleges are almost 10 years old. A lot has changed in 10 years.

On what basis are you making that assertion?

The many high stats CS students I know, and yes, rankings.

For example, the number of published papers in CS coming out colleges: Harvard isn't on the list but UMD is.

https://csrankings.org/#/index?all&us

That list changes month to month but only slightly because it's based on the publications. But UMD is always somewhere on that list, and Harvard is not.

Look up most CS rankings.. Harvard is usually not up there. Harvard has the name prestige, but it's not really known for a top CS program.

I have a friend who went to Harvard for law; their DC is a CS major, and they didn't think their DC should apply to Harvard.

Published papers just means a school has a greater graduate/research focus. Says nothing about the actual quality of the program.

Not to mention that churning out papers isn't even a sign of research quality--you would probably need metrics of journal quality, citations and influence to get even a bit closer to that--and then adjust by per capita faculty. And it's still not telling you much about the quality of the undergraduate program.

please.. if this was a list that showed W&M has more published researched in Econ you'd be all "see.. WM is so much better".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think they are equal in reputation so would let student pick which they prefer, assuming cost is similar.

They absolutely aren't

You're right. UMD is ranked higher (46) than WM (53).
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

And yet, according to Parchment, when applicants are admitted to both, they choose W&M over UMD-CP 70% to 30%. Revealed preference tells us a lot more than pseudoscience rankings.

preferences can be about many things, and not necessarily about academics.

Yes, but what makes a university “better” than another if not the revealed preference of a population who can choose between them? What you think is important is NOT the only criteria in evaluating a university. And there is no way accurate way to measure the “academics” between the two in a way that you can say flatly one is stronger than the other. Sure UMD is bigger and offers things that W&M does not, but what W&M does do I think it does quite well.

Certainly, it depends on when and who took the survey, and what their majors are.

Harvard is the most popular on parchment, but a serious student would choose UMD over Harvard for CS.

Parchment also shows Michigan State as top 20 most popular. You think an Econ major would choose Mich State over W&M?

Also, the stats on parchment for the colleges are almost 10 years old. A lot has changed in 10 years.

On what basis are you making that assertion?

The many high stats CS students I know, and yes, rankings.

For example, the number of published papers in CS coming out colleges: Harvard isn't on the list but UMD is.

https://csrankings.org/#/index?all&us

That list changes month to month but only slightly because it's based on the publications. But UMD is always somewhere on that list, and Harvard is not.

Look up most CS rankings.. Harvard is usually not up there. Harvard has the name prestige, but it's not really known for a top CS program.

I have a friend who went to Harvard for law; their DC is a CS major, and they didn't think their DC should apply to Harvard.

Published papers just means a school has a greater graduate/research focus. Says nothing about the actual quality of the program.

Not to mention that churning out papers isn't even a sign of research quality--you would probably need metrics of journal quality, citations and influence to get even a bit closer to that--and then adjust by per capita faculty. And it's still not telling you much about the quality of the undergraduate program.

please.. if this was a list that showed W&M has more published researched in Econ you'd be all "see.. WM is so much better".

No we wouldn't. Don't project your intellectual dishonesty onto other people.

[Anonymous]

UMD economics is a strong department with professors who are world-class. That brings with it a degree of exposure and a set of opportunities that have their own value. On the other hand, WM will have smaller classes and greater faculty attention from professors who are very good at economics and will be excellent teachers. Which will suit your Dc better?

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Anonymous wrote:OP here. Money matters but not the most important consideration. I was under the impression that UMD is on upward trajectory whilst W&M is moving opposite direction. I have been wondering about that.

W&M alum here. I was shocked at the lower ranking it has now so went down the rabbit hole on looking at why it was dropping. Big reasons are parts that to me don’t feel like defects impacting my kids: ratings no longer value smaller class sizes but I think my kid would do well in smaller classes; ratings value higher Pell Grant attendee numbers but my kid isn’t eligible for that so it’s irrelevant for me and I don’t see a “barbell” student body make up as desirable. In short, it doesn’t sound like W&M has changed the fundamentals of its education. Rather it sounds like USNWR changed what it prioritized in ways that seem to advantage top end private schools and very large public flagships.

Stop blaming the rankings when your school drops and others don’t or even go up. The true top schools didn’t go anywhere in the rankings, however, schools that for years gamed the rankings to try to go up saw a large drop.

DP: W&M never gamed any rankings. PP is correct--the features that make W&M a great school--small class sizes and a focus on undergraduate teaching despite being classed as a research university--are just not prioritized in the new USNWR--but many people find them more valuable than what the rankings currently prioritize. The Pell grant focus is misguided IMO--it is leading top institutions to prioritize giving aid to poor kids and then relying on full-pay UMC+ students to make up the difference--leading to a "barbell" economic distribution where MC/lower end of UMC families are not attending top schools due to finances but poor and wealthier UMC/rich people are. It also privileges schools in LCOLA where there are more Pell grant recipients since it's a federal standard. The data clearly shows this.

W&M --despite being expensive for a public school--does offer the most comprehensive need-based financial aid among VA publics which makes it affordable for high stats students who are not low-income enough to receive Pell grants, but middle class.

I think USNWR should either stay out of the social engineering aspects of college in their rankings OR do a more continuous measure of parental income to see who the schools are really serving rather than a Pell grant cut-off point. A well-educated middle class is essential to a functioning society and is generally the group that values higher education the most and the ranking system is driving admissions and college-level financial aid policies that leave the middle class less likely to attend top schools.

Of course you think it is correct, because you are crying over the ranking the methodology. Personally, I think any school in the Top 100 is a good school, so not sure why somebody decided to start crying over W&M's 53 ranking.

However, you are now in a long line of Tulane, Wash U, Vanderbilt, Wake Forest, etc. who are crying over their particular school dropping when their peer schools did not, and maybe even went up in the rankings. It would be one thing if every school dropped uniformly, but the fact is they did not.

BTW, W&M is ranked 212 by the WSJ rankings...so you should be thankful it is 53 by USNews.

But they did drop uniformly. All the schools that moved up significantly were large publics and the decliners were all privates , particularly small privates (William and Mary treated like a small private because it shares characteristics with them here). The schools that fell the most had scored particularly high on the small classes and classes taught by professors categories.

No they didn't...why didn't Princeton drop...why did Brown move up...why didn't JHU drop...why did Emory remain basically the same. Do you claim to know so much about other schools to be able to parse the differences?

This is the classic...blame the rankings.

Because of the size of their endowments. But that’s affects different ranking factors.

Again, nearly all the schools moving up shared the same phenotype and all the schools moving down shared another. You seem to have trouble with logic.

Ooops...now it is the endowment size. You claiming Vanderbilt, Tulane, Wake have tiny endowments? What's the next excuse?

I actually thought at 53 W&M was ranked pretty high compared to what I would expect.

Now I think maybe the WSJ has it right at 212.

So you just admit you don't like the school and that's why you're being such a loser about this. Sorry things at home aren't working out!

Sounds like a concession...I actually don't give a rats a** about W&M. I just find it comical that anyone decided to reference the drop in rankings with the old "it's not the school...blame the rankings". Everyone, do yourselves a favor and be proud of a 53 ranking...that is a great ranking.

To PP, on every argument you make, it doesn't hold. Emory has much smaller classes on average than W&M yet its ranking didn't move (I think it may have moved up a slot). All the private schools that dropped have what are considered very healthy endowments (Vanderbilt particularly), yet they dropped.

No you're just exhausting because you have a vendetta and are also clearly not willing to think earnestly about this.

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Earlier PP sounds bizarrely obsessed with USNWR being an oracle of quality. The main OP question was which school and whether W&M was getting worse as it was ranked lower. It is objectively factual to point out that the shift in what was measured by USNWR is a major factor that led to climbs in huge public universities and drops by those schools that are not super rich (ie not the Ivys) and have a focus on issues USNWR now gives no “credit” for such as class size. Lots of families think small class size and professors teaching classes are worth more than high Pell Grant ratios. If you disagree well then yes USNWR is a great guide for what you are looking for.

I think a school ranked 53 is a great school. Why the W&M folks are so ashamed at that ranking is beyond me, and they felt the need to bring it up in the context of this thread is bizarre. Nobody asked about it.

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OP literally asked about the shift in rankings of the two schools. That is what prompted the commentary on the shift in USNWR criteria driving the drop.

“ OP here. Money matters but not the most important consideration. I was under the impression that UMD is on upward trajectory whilst W&M is moving opposite direction. I have been wondering about that.”