What is fair in this divorce?

[Anonymous]

Take as much as you possibly can; he's going to drink whatever he's left with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was getting divorced in DC in 2021. From my lawyer: equitable distribution in practice is 50/50 by default. A spouse would have to go to court prove that they contributed significantly more over the course of marriage, but even then it would be probably 55-60% share of assets but no way 1/3! And DC in fact counts marital assets even during separation until divorce is official. Info from top Maryland and DC attorneys

well were you in a short childless marriage with someone who earned 4x more than you? 50-50 may be the “default” but the facts here do not support 50-50 and it would be insane to think that OP’s husband will roll over and give her 50% in mediation. Because they are not bargaining from the position of a theoretical fact-free default, but from what a judge would actually do.

I think the 50-50 referred to marital assets. In no court anywhere is OP entitled to half of her husband’s pre-marital assets.

*and they are also wrong about marital assets.* the ONLY place marital assets are split 50-50 per law is community property states. DC, MD and VA are equitable division states. Equitable does NOT mean equal. It means fair. It means that in a short marriage with no kids and one high earner, it’s not going to be 50-50 unless OP did something like quit her job to care for her DH’s alcoholism. I think she does deserve something additional due to the likely extra effort she put in to caring for him & the household due to his alcoholism. But not 50%.

You keep harping on that but you’re effectively wrong. For starters, you would have to get it in front of a judge which means costly litigation and still might have the same outcome. While we may not be community property states, we are de facto 50/50 states. And no judge is going to give two shots what she “put in to him.” For four measly years. Hell, they might decide she drove him to drink.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was getting divorced in DC in 2021. From my lawyer: equitable distribution in practice is 50/50 by default. A spouse would have to go to court prove that they contributed significantly more over the course of marriage, but even then it would be probably 55-60% share of assets but no way 1/3! And DC in fact counts marital assets even during separation until divorce is official. Info from top Maryland and DC attorneys

well were you in a short childless marriage with someone who earned 4x more than you? 50-50 may be the “default” but the facts here do not support 50-50 and it would be insane to think that OP’s husband will roll over and give her 50% in mediation. Because they are not bargaining from the position of a theoretical fact-free default, but from what a judge would actually do.

I think the 50-50 referred to marital assets. In no court anywhere is OP entitled to half of her husband’s pre-marital assets.

*and they are also wrong about marital assets.* the ONLY place marital assets are split 50-50 per law is community property states. DC, MD and VA are equitable division states. Equitable does NOT mean equal. It means fair. It means that in a short marriage with no kids and one high earner, it’s not going to be 50-50 unless OP did something like quit her job to care for her DH’s alcoholism. I think she does deserve something additional due to the likely extra effort she put in to caring for him & the household due to his alcoholism. But not 50%.

You keep harping on that but you’re effectively wrong. For starters, you would have to get it in front of a judge which means costly litigation and still might have the same outcome. While we may not be community property states, we are de facto 50/50 states. And no judge is going to give two shots what she “put in to him.” For four measly years. Hell, they might decide she drove him to drink.

What am I wrong about? I think you fundamentally misunderstand how mediation works. You go into a mediation with (hopefully) an idea of an offer that bears some relation to what a court would actually do. You don’t subtract litigation costs from your mediation offer either because they have not been incurred. In this case the background law *does not specify 50-50.* That is not how it works in an equitable state. So there is zero basis for OP to go into a mediation based on a belief she is entitled to 50% under the law, without regard for the factual circumstances actually considered by a judge in an equitable division state.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thank you. My career has definitely been dialed back, moreso by my own failings early on, not because his was so demanding. I do/did, however, do almost everything around the house because of how demanding his job was. But, it’s not much if i’m being honest. No kids, condo isn’t huge, etc.
All of our finances are combined, and we’re both on the mortgage/ deed. So we’re both contributing, but obviously very different amounts.

What I think is fair is a 70/30 split of our bank accounts. If we’re doing the math, I make 22% of what he makes, so in my mind, 22% of the savings/checking seems fair. I tacked on another 8% to round it out because of all the damn stress (I know that isn’t a good reason).

But then there’s also the large question of the condo. That could be another $200k coming in, but did I contribute to the down payment? Barely. Again, combined finances but it was mostly money that he had saved for a while.

I think your 30% reasoning for the savings accumulated during the marriage sounds reasonable. For the condo, I thing get out what you put into equity plus appreciation.

Wrong math BTW. Your 88k is 18% of the 488k total. Sorry OP. You should’ve looked under the hood of your golden ticket.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:From what you say, it's likely that a good portion of the assets are separate property that your husband brought to the marriage. I'm certain the "community" owns a portion of those assets but you will need a forensic accountant to determine how much. I suggest getting that number so you have an accurate accounting of what each party is entitled to.

Not sure what your husband's attitude is but if I were the higher earner and my spouse was divorcing me, I would want to know what they were legally entitled to. That said...

The alimony you are entitled to is not for life b/c you are not in a long term marriage. So one idea is to figure out what you'd be entitled to and for how long, then make a global settlement offer that is a lump sum payout of alimony as well as a portion of the assets. The idea is that "For purposes of settlement and to avoid a protracted legal process which will involve the court and carry significant legal costs, I will accept this amount so we can both move on. This offer is good for 30 days."

So do this:

Amount of community assets x 50% (your share) + Amount of likely alimony based on incomes & duration of marriage = What the courts may order.

Then add a little bit and start negotiating. Your ace in the hole is that "you either pay me X, or you will pay BOTH our legal fees which will be several times X".

Good luck - this is never easy.

That's quite a shakedown!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You should get what you contributed, that’s fair.

It doesn't work that way because marriage is a contract and marital property is owned jointly, no matter who worked for pay to accumulate it.

OP, you need a lawyer and you should walk away with half.

Not a chance. After a 4.5 year marriage with no kids?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You should get what you contributed, that’s fair.

It doesn't work that way because marriage is a contract and marital property is owned jointly, no matter who worked for pay to accumulate it.

OP, you need a lawyer and you should walk away with half.

Not a chance. After a 4.5 year marriage with no kids?

there’s a lot of “folk lawyering”
going on here …

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You should get what you contributed, that’s fair.

It doesn't work that way because marriage is a contract and marital property is owned jointly, no matter who worked for pay to accumulate it.

OP, you need a lawyer and you should walk away with half.

Not a chance. After a 4.5 year marriage with no kids?

there’s a lot of “folk lawyering”
going on here …

Seriously! Short term marriage is under ten years and the law never compensates women for their opportunity cost or emotional suffering. She gets 1.5 years of alimony TOPS (probably less).

[Anonymous]

OP here. To clarify a few things:

We live in Massachusetts. I re-read my OP and realized I didn’t state that.

I am not looking for alimony and I don’t want to touch or even consider his 401k/retirement.

I really just wanted to know what is fair for me to ask for from our assets. Again I’m not looking to shake him down, even if me taking nothing is what’s fair, I’ll accept that. I just truly don’t know. And YES, I know, that’s where a lawyer comes in. I have one, I just haven’t officially hired her yet because I was hoping we could settle this in mediation but I’m almost positive we can’t at this point.

Yes, the down payment for the condo was probably all his money. I say probably because our accounts have been commingled since we married in mid-2019, we bought the condo (deed and mortgage are in both our names) in Jan 2021, so I have no idea what % I put in, but I’m not going to pretend like I contributed a significant amount.

Though I make a small salary in DCUM-land, I am fine. My apartment is just outside the city, the rent is so-so, I max out my 401k, have no debt, no car payment, my company pays my health insurance. I say this to make a point that I’ll be fine, even if I walk away with nothing.

Someone asked if I am the person whose husband was having mysterious ailments, seizures, etc - YES that was me. Yes, I’m an idiot. I finally left in early July.

Someone mentioned him stealing my youth or something like that. I very much wanted kids, and we weren’t able to for a while (we both did some testing, things were fine on my end, his sperm wasn’t good, most likely from alcohol abuse), then at some point I obviously decided I can’t have kids with a person like this.
I don’t blame him, I blame myself. I didn’t know any of this when we got married, gods honest truth. But I could’ve taken more time to get to know him, I could’ve listened to my gut, I could’ve stuck to my boundaries and not put up with his sh**. Those are decisions I made and I can live with that.
My work pays up to $60k in reproductive assistance (IVF, IUI, etc) so I think I’m going to freeze my eggs (at the ripe age of 38) as a last hail mary. But I think I’ll be fine either way. I don’t feel a deep sadness about not having kids. This doesn’t have much to do with anything but someone mentioned it which caused me to go off on a tangent here :/

He is begging me to stay, and I just can’t. The straw that finally broke the camels back was me having to barricade the door with my body to stop him from leaving after he got a DUI, woke up, and started immediately drinking, then wanted to go to the bar at 10am to continue. He had court in 2 days and was going to be in withdrawal (after a 4-5 day bender) for about 48 hours so needed to stop immediately (sadly I’ve learned all this math).

Anyways so yes, the whole thing sucks, and it’s really sad. He’s the kindest man you’d ever meet (if we’re excluding the alcohol issues, which I know we can’t). So, I don’t want to “take” anything that’s not mine, and I won’t, but I also would like even just a small nugget to start fresh.

[Anonymous]

OP here. Sorry for the novel ^

[Anonymous]

If his illness were cancer, rather than alcoholism, would you think you deserved a different share?

[Anonymous]

Girl you deserve half of everything earned during the marriage. You deserve it. You wasted good years on this train wreck. Get a lawyer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If his illness were cancer, rather than alcoholism, would you think you deserved a different share?

OP here. Honestly, I don’t think that would change anything. FWIW, my stepdad and sister are both really, really bad alcoholics. I have spent many hours in Al-anon. I understand it’s a disease.
If I made it seem otherwise, I apologize for sounding insensitive.
My question about “my share” isn’t solely based on his addiction.

[Anonymous]

OP, I read your update. At the risk of being mean, you don't sound very bright about these things. You need to consult with a lawyer and see what you are legally entitled to. At a minimum, you need to ask for that, plus perhaps a bump up for negotiating room. STOP asking what is "fair." There is no such thing in this situation. Focus on what you are legally entitled to. Please.

I'm worried you are going to get railroaded during mediation. Go in there with a starting offer and have a bottom in mind and don't go below that.

[Anonymous]

OP, you sound as if you're blaming yourself way too much. None of this is your fault.

For now, please go to a lawyer and just ask what the law would give you. This is what you need to take in mediation. No more and no less.

As for the rest, when this is done, please get therapy for co-dependency. I say that not as a criticism at all. I think you would see your own light shine brighter if you would stop putting your needs as less than and criticizing and shaming yourself. Hugs & stay strong. You are through the worst.