MCPS High School 7:45am for teens is to early

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wish parents could attend period 1 at MCPS high schools for 1 week.
They would change their tune quickly.
I’m a HS teacher and don’t mind the early start as I am an early riser.
But I feel terrible for my students. First period is so different from my other classes. Half the students arrive late. They trickle in all throughout period 1.
The remaining kids are either half or fully asleep. Most states have moved high school start times to 8 am or later but MCPS is not progressive in this regard

+100. Another HS teacher here. I teach on-level physics and chemistry at a very diverse school and I often only have 4 students out of 30 at the start of period 1. By the end of period 1, maybe we are at 15-20 students max out of 30. Period 1 starting at 7.45 am does not work. It is a wasted period.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wish parents could attend period 1 at MCPS high schools for 1 week.
They would change their tune quickly.
I’m a HS teacher and don’t mind the early start as I am an early riser.
But I feel terrible for my students. First period is so different from my other classes. Half the students arrive late. They trickle in all throughout period 1.
The remaining kids are either half or fully asleep. Most states have moved high school start times to 8 am or later but MCPS is not progressive in this regard

+100. Another HS teacher here. I teach on-level physics and chemistry at a very diverse school and I often only have 4 students out of 30 at the start of period 1. By the end of period 1, maybe we are at 15-20 students max out of 30. Period 1 starting at 7.45 am does not work. It is a wasted period.

Then those kids fail and contact the parent to discuss it with them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason DCOS can do that is that they do t run school buses. Unfortunately not an option in MoCo unless they switch elementary to start early, which I would support but many other don’t.

If ES started at 7:45 and got out at 2:30, many more thousands of seats in aftercare would be needed.

Except HS students provide child care so that wouldn't work if they got out later, younger kids earlier.

How are other states able to make later start times work?
Montgomery County is not unique. Same problems everywhere but in other places, they adapt and figure things out.

We have a child care shortage now and always have. How would you propose we make it work? And, a bus driver shortage. Most places don't have as large a student body to deal with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s fine. They adjust.

No the don’t. Their circadian clock doesn’t adjust.

Mine (who slept til 11:30 today) adjusted fine, as did I as a teenager. Woke up in the dark every morning, even earlier than necessary, to have enough time to do my hair. Not ideal, but we’re all doing just fine.

No, they are tired and yes, it is not ideal. You contradicted yourself bc you know it needs to be later and you admit your kids slept till 11:30. Your time to fo your hair does not correlate to a study in the biology of teen sleep patterns.

I was only pointing out that though her body might want to sleep til 11:30, she does fine when forced to wake up much earlier. She doesn’t get home til nearly 5 pm most days. She’s cheerful and doing well in school. Her phone shuts off at 9 pm, so if yours are having trouble, maybe try that.

My kid isn’t using her phone after 9pm, is getting straight A’s in a magnet program, and has to be out the door by 6:35 to catch her bus. She’s cheerful most hours out of the day…but not from 6-8:00am. By Friday nights she’s a zombie. If we have special weekend plans that prevent her from getting caught up on her sleep, the next week is really tough. She’s physically and mentally healthy, doing well in school, and has a happy social life, but she’s tired. Is the early start time going to break her? No, she’ll survive it like we did. But is it fine? No, it’s not. A later start time would be better. It may not be feasible, but it would be better.

The entire state of CA changed HS start time to 8.30 am or later but MCPS says it is not feasible. Pathetic!

Schools can start when they want. It was recommended.

Their school districts are different than ours. How do you propose making it work?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason DCOS can do that is that they do t run school buses. Unfortunately not an option in MoCo unless they switch elementary to start early, which I would support but many other don’t.

If ES started at 7:45 and got out at 2:30, many more thousands of seats in aftercare would be needed.

Except HS students provide child care so that wouldn't work if they got out later, younger kids earlier.

How are other states able to make later start times work?
Montgomery County is not unique. Same problems everywhere but in other places, they adapt and figure things out.

Smaller counties and city based schools. So there are like 4 HS and 10 MS and 15 ES schools. Everyone can be bussed to start at 8:30. MoCo is 160k students. MD law requires that public schools are county wide. This is a big big problem. It would be much better for kids if schools started at 8:30 or so and all let out st the same tome. But populstion density and traffic snd bus costs wont allow for that. Ever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wish parents could attend period 1 at MCPS high schools for 1 week.
They would change their tune quickly.
I’m a HS teacher and don’t mind the early start as I am an early riser.
But I feel terrible for my students. First period is so different from my other classes. Half the students arrive late. They trickle in all throughout period 1.
The remaining kids are either half or fully asleep. Most states have moved high school start times to 8 am or later but MCPS is not progressive in this regard

+100. Another HS teacher here. I teach on-level physics and chemistry at a very diverse school and I often only have 4 students out of 30 at the start of period 1. By the end of period 1, maybe we are at 15-20 students max out of 30. Period 1 starting at 7.45 am does not work. It is a wasted period.

What has changed, other than the internet and social media, since the 1990s? My high school started at 7:45. With the exceptions of late busses, trains, or crazy traffic, everyone was there at 7:45. And no, half the class wasn’t asleep in 1st period. So why are 2023 teens unable to do this but 1990s/2000s teens were?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s fine. They adjust.

No the don’t. Their circadian clock doesn’t adjust.

this is American BS. Teenage Humans around the world manage to get up early to go to school, work etc…. They go to bed earlier. Common denominator in the US is social media/screens and teens.

DH's HS school started at 9.. in the uK. They still do, I think.

CA just passed a law that HS cannot start earlier than 8:30.

The only countries that force kids to start early are those that are either 1. insane about education like China 2. it's too hot in the afternoon, like Brazil.

Germany starts at 7 and ends at 2.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wish parents could attend period 1 at MCPS high schools for 1 week.
They would change their tune quickly.
I’m a HS teacher and don’t mind the early start as I am an early riser.
But I feel terrible for my students. First period is so different from my other classes. Half the students arrive late. They trickle in all throughout period 1.
The remaining kids are either half or fully asleep. Most states have moved high school start times to 8 am or later but MCPS is not progressive in this regard

+100. Another HS teacher here. I teach on-level physics and chemistry at a very diverse school and I often only have 4 students out of 30 at the start of period 1. By the end of period 1, maybe we are at 15-20 students max out of 30. Period 1 starting at 7.45 am does not work. It is a wasted period.

What has changed, other than the internet and social media, since the 1990s? My high school started at 7:45. With the exceptions of late busses, trains, or crazy traffic, everyone was there at 7:45. And no, half the class wasn’t asleep in 1st period. So why are 2023 teens unable to do this but 1990s/2000s teens were?

hmm what could it be????…. Think think……

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s fine. They adjust.

No the don’t. Their circadian clock doesn’t adjust.

Mine (who slept til 11:30 today) adjusted fine, as did I as a teenager. Woke up in the dark every morning, even earlier than necessary, to have enough time to do my hair. Not ideal, but we’re all doing just fine.

No, they are tired and yes, it is not ideal. You contradicted yourself bc you know it needs to be later and you admit your kids slept till 11:30. Your time to fo your hair does not correlate to a study in the biology of teen sleep patterns.

I was only pointing out that though her body might want to sleep til 11:30, she does fine when forced to wake up much earlier. She doesn’t get home til nearly 5 pm most days. She’s cheerful and doing well in school. Her phone shuts off at 9 pm, so if yours are having trouble, maybe try that.

My kid isn’t using her phone after 9pm, is getting straight A’s in a magnet program, and has to be out the door by 6:35 to catch her bus. She’s cheerful most hours out of the day…but not from 6-8:00am. By Friday nights she’s a zombie. If we have special weekend plans that prevent her from getting caught up on her sleep, the next week is really tough. She’s physically and mentally healthy, doing well in school, and has a happy social life, but she’s tired. Is the early start time going to break her? No, she’ll survive it like we did. But is it fine? No, it’s not. A later start time would be better. It may not be feasible, but it would be better.

Ok, but not all kids feel that way. What does her doctor say? Why do you think your kid is representative of all teens everywhere? And with a later start time, you realize she'll just be staying up later and still not getting more sleep.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wish parents could attend period 1 at MCPS high schools for 1 week.
They would change their tune quickly.
I’m a HS teacher and don’t mind the early start as I am an early riser.
But I feel terrible for my students. First period is so different from my other classes. Half the students arrive late. They trickle in all throughout period 1.
The remaining kids are either half or fully asleep. Most states have moved high school start times to 8 am or later but MCPS is not progressive in this regard

And how would it be if their parent got them to be earlier?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s fine. They adjust.

No the don’t. Their circadian clock doesn’t adjust.

Mine (who slept til 11:30 today) adjusted fine, as did I as a teenager. Woke up in the dark every morning, even earlier than necessary, to have enough time to do my hair. Not ideal, but we’re all doing just fine.

No, they are tired and yes, it is not ideal. You contradicted yourself bc you know it needs to be later and you admit your kids slept till 11:30. Your time to fo your hair does not correlate to a study in the biology of teen sleep patterns.

I was only pointing out that though her body might want to sleep til 11:30, she does fine when forced to wake up much earlier. She doesn’t get home til nearly 5 pm most days. She’s cheerful and doing well in school. Her phone shuts off at 9 pm, so if yours are having trouble, maybe try that.

My kid isn’t using her phone after 9pm, is getting straight A’s in a magnet program, and has to be out the door by 6:35 to catch her bus. She’s cheerful most hours out of the day…but not from 6-8:00am. By Friday nights she’s a zombie. If we have special weekend plans that prevent her from getting caught up on her sleep, the next week is really tough. She’s physically and mentally healthy, doing well in school, and has a happy social life, but she’s tired. Is the early start time going to break her? No, she’ll survive it like we did. But is it fine? No, it’s not. A later start time would be better. It may not be feasible, but it would be better.

Ok, but not all kids feel that way. What does her doctor say? Why do you think your kid is representative of all teens everywhere? And with a later start time, you realize she'll just be staying up later and still not getting more sleep.

Or, that poster could drive her child to the school and child could have extra sleep.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason DCOS can do that is that they do t run school buses. Unfortunately not an option in MoCo unless they switch elementary to start early, which I would support but many other don’t.

If ES started at 7:45 and got out at 2:30, many more thousands of seats in aftercare would be needed.

Not sure how many times you need to hear this before you get it but school is not your free daycare service. Don’t rely on school before having children. Do research. Make sure you can afford it. I’m a parent and I’m so tired of this… it makes the rest of us look bad. Most of us have shit together.

I think the people arguing that school needs to start later because they can't enforce a bedtime for their children shouldn't be judging other people.

And, this is what the actual studies are saying. The PP claiming it is inherent in the adolescent to not be able to go to bed on time to get up when they need to is deliberately misreading the underlying studies about the teen circadian rhythm -- or perhaps not reading them at all. The recommendation that public school districts start later is premised on the belief that the majority of parents of teens displaying sleep deprivation symptoms (aka teens in trouble) are unable to help their kids get enough sleep by reducing night time screens and enforcing bed time. This is probably true, but no one should excuse teens or their parents for this, nor simply blame biology. They are not saying teens are physically unable to go to bed early. In fact the studies also recommend: "We can also help teenagers gain control over their own sleep patterns by teaching sleep and circadian principles in middle and high school health education. Minimizing exposure to light at night, as well as reducing computer or TV usage immediately before bedtime can naturally advance circadian phase. Similarly, incorporating outdoor morning activity into a teenage schedule can reduce trouble falling asleep at night."

Teens who get enough sleep are not struggling with the typical school schedule. You reduce light stimulants and go to bed when you need to to get 8-10 hours of sleep before you get up. Kids who have to get up at 5:30 a.m. for swim practice go to bed without issue or "circadian problems" at 9 p.m.; kids who go to bed at 10 can get up at 6:45 and be on the school bus by at 7:20. Kids who are allowed or encouraged to be on computers until 12 a.m. obviously are going to have difficulty getting 8-10 hours of sleep because they won't start to shut down until well after they turn off the computer and block out the light. The studies are primarily about total length of sleep and the effect of modern teen lifestyle and light exposure on ability to fall asleep (except for the early studies that did not account for what we now know about artificial light).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason DCOS can do that is that they do t run school buses. Unfortunately not an option in MoCo unless they switch elementary to start early, which I would support but many other don’t.

If ES started at 7:45 and got out at 2:30, many more thousands of seats in aftercare would be needed.

Not sure how many times you need to hear this before you get it but school is not your free daycare service. Don’t rely on school before having children. Do research. Make sure you can afford it. I’m a parent and I’m so tired of this… it makes the rest of us look bad. Most of us have shit together.

I think the people arguing that school needs to start later because they can't enforce a bedtime for their children shouldn't be judging other people.

And, this is what the actual studies are saying. The PP claiming it is inherent in the adolescent to not be able to go to bed on time to get up when they need to is deliberately misreading the underlying studies about the teen circadian rhythm -- or perhaps not reading them at all. The recommendation that public school districts start later is premised on the belief that the majority of parents of teens displaying sleep deprivation symptoms (aka teens in trouble) are unable to help their kids get enough sleep by reducing night time screens and enforcing bed time. This is probably true, but no one should excuse teens or their parents for this, nor simply blame biology. They are not saying teens are physically unable to go to bed early. In fact the studies also recommend: "We can also help teenagers gain control over their own sleep patterns by teaching sleep and circadian principles in middle and high school health education. Minimizing exposure to light at night, as well as reducing computer or TV usage immediately before bedtime can naturally advance circadian phase. Similarly, incorporating outdoor morning activity into a teenage schedule can reduce trouble falling asleep at night."

Teens who get enough sleep are not struggling with the typical school schedule. You reduce light stimulants and go to bed when you need to to get 8-10 hours of sleep before you get up. Kids who have to get up at 5:30 a.m. for swim practice go to bed without issue or "circadian problems" at 9 p.m.; kids who go to bed at 10 can get up at 6:45 and be on the school bus by at 7:20. Kids who are allowed or encouraged to be on computers until 12 a.m. obviously are going to have difficulty getting 8-10 hours of sleep because they won't start to shut down until well after they turn off the computer and block out the light. The studies are primarily about total length of sleep and the effect of modern teen lifestyle and light exposure on ability to fall asleep (except for the early studies that did not account for what we now know about artificial light).

We need to stop babying our kids. They have to learn to live in the real world and if your job or another obligation says a time you have to be there, you be there. You either go to bed early or you suck it up and are tired. I am a night owl and hate going to bed and yet, when I had to have this schedule when I went to an MCPS HS, somehow I managed. Same for college and jobs.

My child has to get up early and goes to bed late. They deal and if they are tired they go to bed earlier when they can or take a nap. They are fine. Really.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wish parents could attend period 1 at MCPS high schools for 1 week.
They would change their tune quickly.
I’m a HS teacher and don’t mind the early start as I am an early riser.
But I feel terrible for my students. First period is so different from my other classes. Half the students arrive late. They trickle in all throughout period 1.
The remaining kids are either half or fully asleep. Most states have moved high school start times to 8 am or later but MCPS is not progressive in this regard

+100. Another HS teacher here. I teach on-level physics and chemistry at a very diverse school and I often only have 4 students out of 30 at the start of period 1. By the end of period 1, maybe we are at 15-20 students max out of 30. Period 1 starting at 7.45 am does not work. It is a wasted period.

What has changed, other than the internet and social media, since the 1990s? My high school started at 7:45. With the exceptions of late busses, trains, or crazy traffic, everyone was there at 7:45. And no, half the class wasn’t asleep in 1st period. So why are 2023 teens unable to do this but 1990s/2000s teens were?

I don’t know but I graduated h.s. in 2004 and can confirm that my high school (with 7:30 start) had these very issues PP describes. I was in all honors and AP classes and large numbers of my classes struggled hard with the start time,

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason DCOS can do that is that they do t run school buses. Unfortunately not an option in MoCo unless they switch elementary to start early, which I would support but many other don’t.

If ES started at 7:45 and got out at 2:30, many more thousands of seats in aftercare would be needed.

Except HS students provide child care so that wouldn't work if they got out later, younger kids earlier.

How are other states able to make later start times work?
Montgomery County is not unique. Same problems everywhere but in other places, they adapt and figure things out.

We have a child care shortage now and always have. How would you propose we make it work? And, a bus driver shortage. Most places don't have as large a student body to deal with.

It’s not the school districts job to provide you with childcare. It is their job to provide an education. The rest of the country has later start times for high school and earlier start times for elementary. They made it work. We could do except apparently every parent in MoCo had kids and forgot they had to actually take care of them.