Can a China expert explain why xi didn’t let covid burn through the population?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I dont think you need a China expert to know that there must be a flaw in your reasoning.

China has higher diabetes rates than the U.S. too.

Wait, really? Says who? That’s shocking

Yes! I was shocked too.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/281082/countries-with-highest-number-of-diabetics/

China has the highest number of people with diabetes (because it is the largest country) but not the highest rate.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/diabetes-rates-by-country

DP. Yes, China has higher rate of diabetes than the US, although the rates are very close.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/diabetes-rates-by-country

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People get it over and over again. It contributes to heart issues, sterility etc. Having it "burn through" a population is just plain stupid.

This. Especially if the Chinese vaccines aren't very effective and they won't accept ours. They will have significantly more deaths than the US even did, when the red states let Covid vurn it's way through.

\
How do you know they already don't have more deaths? No-one knows the true or close to true number from China.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I believe the original death numbers in Wahun during 2020 could be hundreds of thousands. There is no way, only 5-6K would have died when China were the first one to get exposed and had a high learning curve to tackle with the issue.

I'm just gonna say - listening to BBC and NPR reports from Wuhan in late December drove home to me that this virus was going to hit the US. I slowly started stocking up on paper products, masks, wipes, hand sanitzer, and gloves in early January - buying extra paper products and hand sanitizer when at the store and ordering the remainder on line in small batches. Even though I was wildly more prepared than many friends, I still had incredibly naive ideas about what was to come.

And agree, the anguish in those radio reports augured far more than 5-6K in a city of nearly 8.3 million in 2020.

Remember the reports of satellite images showing crematoria around Wuhan operating 24/7? No way only 5 to 6K people succumbed to Covid there. Iran's numbers were a distant second to China's in grossly underestimating deaths.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But China only wants to protect the people. It’s such a benevolent nation

I wouldn’t call them benevolent, but they definitely handled covid better. We could learn a lot from them. Not just in how the government administers it’s authority, but how the people accept it. We’d be better off as a nation if we were more like China.

Troll gonna troll

I can assure you I’m definitely not a troll.

What I AM is someone who’s had their fill of the “muh freedumbs” idiots over the last few years. Freedumb IS the problem. This country has too much of it, and these idiots can’t handle it. So yes, I admire the Chinese, for the way their citizens understand personal responsibility and for the way the govt doesn’t allow the stupidity we’ve seen here during the pandemic. We the opposite end of the spectrum from China. The ideal point would be somewhere in the middle. Closer to where UK/Canada/Australia/NZ would’ve been IF they didn’t have their own freedumb loons mucking things up. Inspired by American freedumb loons, btw.

So yes, I look longingly towards being more like China.

Virulently racist authoritarian regimes or only nice to live in for the privileged class. That you assume you'd be part of the privileged class is telling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They did the same things as other countries in very early 2020, except to an extreme degree because of the powers of the authoritarian government. So while other countries were instituting stay at home orders apart from the most essential of essential shopping, China was locking people into their homes. They thought that an outbreak tracking and isolation system would work, kind of like how we track rare measles outbreaks in the US. When someone tests positive for measles here, we can trace back their movements and then ask people who were in those places at those times to get tested. That’s what China was able to do after the initial lockdowns and their people lived fairly normal lives in summer/fall of 2020, while places like Australia and Western Europe, and parts of the US, were still under restrictions.

Then the variants started and Covid became more transmissible. And the new variants started to get around the vaccines especially in terms of transmission. China developed their own vaccines which aren’t as protective against the variants, whereas most developed countries were using the vaccines we have in the US + the AstraZeneca vaccine. And at some point, most countries decided that with the vaccines being widely available, the cost-benefit of more shutdowns and restrictions wasn’t worth it. They were harmful to the economy and to the political parties in power when restrictions became politically unpopular.

But there is no such cost-benefit in China where there is only one party and you have no individual freedom. There is the belief throughout society that the government can solve all problems, and so for the government to “change course” abruptly would be seen as a sign of weakness. So the only alternative was to double down on lockdowns and restrictions. Otherwise your political opponents within the CCP see you as weak.

And now, China has a population with VERY little exposure to Covid, who has had less effective vaccines, and where the elderly are skeptical of the vaccines and have a lower than average uptake rate of vaccines and especially boosters. So they’re stuck. If they ease up on the restrictions, people are going to get sick, end up in the hospital, and die. It’s like us and other countries at the end of 2020-beginning of 2021. If they keep the restrictions, the political unrest grows and it’s bad for their economy and tourism. Korea, Japan, Thailand, all have essentially no travel restrictions. Hong Kong is easing up a little and going to testing and monitoring for overseas arrivals. But China is still requiring the quarantine in a government facility. People can’t visit and their own citizens can’t leave without extending their trip another 10 days MINIMUM when they get back to China.

Western governments were very clear that they were locking down to flatten the curve. Once we had vaccines, there was no reason for any restrictions. Even locking down is a misnomer- here it mostly meant eating outside at restaurants and public school children being denied an education. Chinese people have literally starved to death because of lockdowns.

Oooh! Just slipped that in there: Shifting to less than ideal efforts to provide virtual education in a worldwide crisis is not quite the same thing as “public school children being denied an education “. Nice thing, I guess, is that you’re alive to obfuscate.

Private schools and catholic schools reopened in relatively short order. It amounted to denying public school children an education. If you thought it was a reasonable measure, you should have no problem owning the consequences

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But China only wants to protect the people. It’s such a benevolent nation

I wouldn’t call them benevolent, but they definitely handled covid better. We could learn a lot from them. Not just in how the government administers it’s authority, but how the people accept it. We’d be better off as a nation if we were more like China.

Troll gonna troll

I can assure you I’m definitely not a troll.

What I AM is someone who’s had their fill of the “muh freedumbs” idiots over the last few years. Freedumb IS the problem. This country has too much of it, and these idiots can’t handle it. So yes, I admire the Chinese, for the way their citizens understand personal responsibility and for the way the govt doesn’t allow the stupidity we’ve seen here during the pandemic. We the opposite end of the spectrum from China. The ideal point would be somewhere in the middle. Closer to where UK/Canada/Australia/NZ would’ve been IF they didn’t have their own freedumb loons mucking things up. Inspired by American freedumb loons, btw.

So yes, I look longingly towards being more like China.

Virulently racist authoritarian regimes or only nice to live in for the privileged class. That you assume you'd be part of the privileged class is telling.

But their minorities get to go to camp, who doesn't love camp?

[Anonymous]

DP.

Here's a list. I'm going to use Pfizer for illustrative purposes, but you are welcome to substitute the medical source of your choice.

1. Not enough effective vaccines. The chinese vaccine Sinovac is rumored to be only about 60% up to par. Even Pfizer required 4 shots so far. 331.9 Million in the U.S. 1.412 Billion in China. Pfizer manufactures more than 200 million doses of Pfizer vaccines annually, but recently claimed "because of our manufacturing enhancements, we are now confident we can deliver 2.5 billion vaccines in 2021." But that does't mean that Chinese companies can do the same, and there's already rumblings about "greedy western companies" seeking to squeeze the chinese workers. The average salary in China is about 13K (compared to $69K in the US). Although Chinese health care is technically "free", it's only "free" if you have Public or Private healthcare insurance. If neither, you have to pay up front, and you can imagine the level of care you might receive.. https://focus.cbbc.org/how-chinas-healthcare-system-actually-works/#.Y5EzWC-B1QI
2. Pfizer will charge $110 to $130 for a dose of its COVID-19 vaccine once the U.S. government stops buying the shots. Do the math.
3. Not everywhere in China has a CVS (medical infrastructure) nearby to even administer the vaccine.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image%20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=9635316_gr2_lrg.jpg
4. Potential for social unrest (someone mentioned elderly at risk and Chinese culture is very attuned to the elderly, although this is changing recently).
5. Overwhelming of the health care system. China has about 3.6 ICU beds for every 100,000 citizens, compared to 25.8 - 33.9 in the U.S.
6. Risk of disease from body disposal (think India-style mass funeral pyres to burn the dead). Cremation is 4,500 rmb and burial about 10x that, assuming the family medical bills didn't wipe the family out first.
7. Something that no one has yet mentioned. The potential for virus mutation. While this may not be a primary concern of the Chinese Government, it should be. Remember how many covid variants are out in the World now? Add another 18.5% new unvaccinated or less effective vaccination efficacy infection targets. The US has about 94 people per square mile, but China has 397 (about four times that). We saw how fast covid spread in the US, but China?
8. General lack of sick leave, highly variable sanitary standards, etc. that compound the severity of illnesses.

I could go on, but I think you get the gist?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But China only wants to protect the people. It’s such a benevolent nation

I wouldn’t call them benevolent, but they definitely handled covid better. We could learn a lot from them. Not just in how the government administers it’s authority, but how the people accept it. We’d be better off as a nation if we were more like China.

Troll gonna troll

I can assure you I’m definitely not a troll.

What I AM is someone who’s had their fill of the “muh freedumbs” idiots over the last few years. Freedumb IS the problem. This country has too much of it, and these idiots can’t handle it. So yes, I admire the Chinese, for the way their citizens understand personal responsibility and for the way the govt doesn’t allow the stupidity we’ve seen here during the pandemic. We the opposite end of the spectrum from China. The ideal point would be somewhere in the middle. Closer to where UK/Canada/Australia/NZ would’ve been IF they didn’t have their own freedumb loons mucking things up. Inspired by American freedumb loons, btw.

So yes, I look longingly towards being more like China.

China is stupid in their own way. Surely you must realize that. They resort to lockdowns because they don’t have a decent vaccine. If they could have provided their citizens that, they likely could have opened up with masks and it would have been ok there.

Also calling anyone who dares to question the cost/benefits of Covid mitigation measures as “freedumbs” shows you are simple minded and most likely sheltered. What made sense in March 2020 eventually did not anymore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But China only wants to protect the people. It’s such a benevolent nation

I wouldn’t call them benevolent, but they definitely handled covid better. We could learn a lot from them. Not just in how the government administers it’s authority, but how the people accept it. We’d be better off as a nation if we were more like China.

Troll gonna troll

I can assure you I’m definitely not a troll.

What I AM is someone who’s had their fill of the “muh freedumbs” idiots over the last few years. Freedumb IS the problem. This country has too much of it, and these idiots can’t handle it. So yes, I admire the Chinese, for the way their citizens understand personal responsibility and for the way the govt doesn’t allow the stupidity we’ve seen here during the pandemic. We the opposite end of the spectrum from China. The ideal point would be somewhere in the middle. Closer to where UK/Canada/Australia/NZ would’ve been IF they didn’t have their own freedumb loons mucking things up. Inspired by American freedumb loons, btw.

So yes, I look longingly towards being more like China.

China is stupid in their own way. Surely you must realize that. They resort to lockdowns because they don’t have a decent vaccine. If they could have provided their citizens that, they likely could have opened up with masks and it would have been ok there.

Also calling anyone who dares to question the cost/benefits of Covid mitigation measures as “freedumbs” shows you are simple minded and most likely sheltered. What made sense in March 2020 eventually did not anymore.

They’ve also done nothing to build up their hospital capacity. They have the same problems they did 3 years ago, so even with a less virulent strain, it’s going to be a mess there for a while.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But China only wants to protect the people. It’s such a benevolent nation

I wouldn’t call them benevolent, but they definitely handled covid better. We could learn a lot from them. Not just in how the government administers it’s authority, but how the people accept it. We’d be better off as a nation if we were more like China.

Troll gonna troll

I can assure you I’m definitely not a troll.

What I AM is someone who’s had their fill of the “muh freedumbs” idiots over the last few years. Freedumb IS the problem. This country has too much of it, and these idiots can’t handle it. So yes, I admire the Chinese, for the way their citizens understand personal responsibility and for the way the govt doesn’t allow the stupidity we’ve seen here during the pandemic. We the opposite end of the spectrum from China. The ideal point would be somewhere in the middle. Closer to where UK/Canada/Australia/NZ would’ve been IF they didn’t have their own freedumb loons mucking things up. Inspired by American freedumb loons, btw.

So yes, I look longingly towards being more like China.

China is stupid in their own way. Surely you must realize that. They resort to lockdowns because they don’t have a decent vaccine. If they could have provided their citizens that, they likely could have opened up with masks and it would have been ok there.

Also calling anyone who dares to question the cost/benefits of Covid mitigation measures as “freedumbs” shows you are simple minded and most likely sheltered. What made sense in March 2020 eventually did not anymore.

I'm not even sure what we did made sense in March 2020, either. Our public health officials panicked, and basically ignored decades of planning on how to handle disease outbreaks and just kind of engaged in a race to see who could be the most restrictive, before some places decided to dial it back, and eventually end restrictions. It's good that we live in a federal republic, where states could push back on the narrative and try different, less restrictive approaches, rather than being stuck with a top-down, one-size fits all approach.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But China only wants to protect the people. It’s such a benevolent nation

I wouldn’t call them benevolent, but they definitely handled covid better. We could learn a lot from them. Not just in how the government administers it’s authority, but how the people accept it. We’d be better off as a nation if we were more like China.

Troll gonna troll

I can assure you I’m definitely not a troll.

What I AM is someone who’s had their fill of the “muh freedumbs” idiots over the last few years. Freedumb IS the problem. This country has too much of it, and these idiots can’t handle it. So yes, I admire the Chinese, for the way their citizens understand personal responsibility and for the way the govt doesn’t allow the stupidity we’ve seen here during the pandemic. We the opposite end of the spectrum from China. The ideal point would be somewhere in the middle. Closer to where UK/Canada/Australia/NZ would’ve been IF they didn’t have their own freedumb loons mucking things up. Inspired by American freedumb loons, btw.

So yes, I look longingly towards being more like China.

China is stupid in their own way. Surely you must realize that. They resort to lockdowns because they don’t have a decent vaccine. If they could have provided their citizens that, they likely could have opened up with masks and it would have been ok there.

Also calling anyone who dares to question the cost/benefits of Covid mitigation measures as “freedumbs” shows you are simple minded and most likely sheltered. What made sense in March 2020 eventually did not anymore.

I'm not even sure what we did made sense in March 2020, either. Our public health officials panicked, and basically ignored decades of planning on how to handle disease outbreaks and just kind of engaged in a race to see who could be the most restrictive, before some places decided to dial it back, and eventually end restrictions. It's good that we live in a federal republic, where states could push back on the narrative and try different, less restrictive approaches, rather than being stuck with a top-down, one-size fits all approach.

People living in NYC would call out your dismissive tone for the bullsh1t it is. Hospitals and EMS were overwhelmed. As were funeral homes and crematoria.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But China only wants to protect the people. It’s such a benevolent nation

I wouldn’t call them benevolent, but they definitely handled covid better. We could learn a lot from them. Not just in how the government administers it’s authority, but how the people accept it. We’d be better off as a nation if we were more like China.

Troll gonna troll

I can assure you I’m definitely not a troll.

What I AM is someone who’s had their fill of the “muh freedumbs” idiots over the last few years. Freedumb IS the problem. This country has too much of it, and these idiots can’t handle it. So yes, I admire the Chinese, for the way their citizens understand personal responsibility and for the way the govt doesn’t allow the stupidity we’ve seen here during the pandemic. We the opposite end of the spectrum from China. The ideal point would be somewhere in the middle. Closer to where UK/Canada/Australia/NZ would’ve been IF they didn’t have their own freedumb loons mucking things up. Inspired by American freedumb loons, btw.

So yes, I look longingly towards being more like China.

China is stupid in their own way. Surely you must realize that. They resort to lockdowns because they don’t have a decent vaccine. If they could have provided their citizens that, they likely could have opened up with masks and it would have been ok there.

Also calling anyone who dares to question the cost/benefits of Covid mitigation measures as “freedumbs” shows you are simple minded and most likely sheltered. What made sense in March 2020 eventually did not anymore.

I'm not even sure what we did made sense in March 2020, either. Our public health officials panicked, and basically ignored decades of planning on how to handle disease outbreaks and just kind of engaged in a race to see who could be the most restrictive, before some places decided to dial it back, and eventually end restrictions. It's good that we live in a federal republic, where states could push back on the narrative and try different, less restrictive approaches, rather than being stuck with a top-down, one-size fits all approach.

People living in NYC would call out your dismissive tone for the bullsh1t it is. Hospitals and EMS were overwhelmed. As were funeral homes and crematoria.

One could argue that the measures weren’t enough in NYC yet overkill elsewhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But China only wants to protect the people. It’s such a benevolent nation

I wouldn’t call them benevolent, but they definitely handled covid better. We could learn a lot from them. Not just in how the government administers it’s authority, but how the people accept it. We’d be better off as a nation if we were more like China.

Troll gonna troll

I can assure you I’m definitely not a troll.

What I AM is someone who’s had their fill of the “muh freedumbs” idiots over the last few years. Freedumb IS the problem. This country has too much of it, and these idiots can’t handle it. So yes, I admire the Chinese, for the way their citizens understand personal responsibility and for the way the govt doesn’t allow the stupidity we’ve seen here during the pandemic. We the opposite end of the spectrum from China. The ideal point would be somewhere in the middle. Closer to where UK/Canada/Australia/NZ would’ve been IF they didn’t have their own freedumb loons mucking things up. Inspired by American freedumb loons, btw.

So yes, I look longingly towards being more like China.

China is stupid in their own way. Surely you must realize that. They resort to lockdowns because they don’t have a decent vaccine. If they could have provided their citizens that, they likely could have opened up with masks and it would have been ok there.

Also calling anyone who dares to question the cost/benefits of Covid mitigation measures as “freedumbs” shows you are simple minded and most likely sheltered. What made sense in March 2020 eventually did not anymore.

I'm not even sure what we did made sense in March 2020, either. Our public health officials panicked, and basically ignored decades of planning on how to handle disease outbreaks and just kind of engaged in a race to see who could be the most restrictive, before some places decided to dial it back, and eventually end restrictions. It's good that we live in a federal republic, where states could push back on the narrative and try different, less restrictive approaches, rather than being stuck with a top-down, one-size fits all approach.

People living in NYC would call out your dismissive tone for the bullsh1t it is. Hospitals and EMS were overwhelmed. As were funeral homes and crematoria.

One could argue that the measures weren’t enough in NYC yet overkill elsewhere.

Moving the goalposts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People get it over and over again. It contributes to heart issues, sterility etc. Having it "burn through" a population is just plain stupid.

This. Especially if the Chinese vaccines aren't very effective and they won't accept ours. They will have significantly more deaths than the US even did, when the red states let Covid vurn it's way through.

\
How do you know they already don't have more deaths? No-one knows the true or close to true number from China.

Well, they may have, who knows?

But if their vaccine isn't as good, it would explain why they have stayed with strict lockdown measures, because they are afraid Covid will overwhelm their medical services and there will be massive death like before. Like I said, they will probably have significantly higher percentage of deaths than the US, if China lets it burn through the population.

If China loses a large number of people, there will not be enough cheap labor to make all the crap we buy from them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But China only wants to protect the people. It’s such a benevolent nation

I wouldn’t call them benevolent, but they definitely handled covid better. We could learn a lot from them. Not just in how the government administers it’s authority, but how the people accept it. We’d be better off as a nation if we were more like China.

Troll gonna troll

I can assure you I’m definitely not a troll.

What I AM is someone who’s had their fill of the “muh freedumbs” idiots over the last few years. Freedumb IS the problem. This country has too much of it, and these idiots can’t handle it. So yes, I admire the Chinese, for the way their citizens understand personal responsibility and for the way the govt doesn’t allow the stupidity we’ve seen here during the pandemic. We the opposite end of the spectrum from China. The ideal point would be somewhere in the middle. Closer to where UK/Canada/Australia/NZ would’ve been IF they didn’t have their own freedumb loons mucking things up. Inspired by American freedumb loons, btw.

So yes, I look longingly towards being more like China.

China is stupid in their own way. Surely you must realize that. They resort to lockdowns because they don’t have a decent vaccine. If they could have provided their citizens that, they likely could have opened up with masks and it would have been ok there.

Also calling anyone who dares to question the cost/benefits of Covid mitigation measures as “freedumbs” shows you are simple minded and most likely sheltered. What made sense in March 2020 eventually did not anymore.

I'm not even sure what we did made sense in March 2020, either. Our public health officials panicked, and basically ignored decades of planning on how to handle disease outbreaks and just kind of engaged in a race to see who could be the most restrictive, before some places decided to dial it back, and eventually end restrictions. It's good that we live in a federal republic, where states could push back on the narrative and try different, less restrictive approaches, rather than being stuck with a top-down, one-size fits all approach.

People living in NYC would call out your dismissive tone for the bullsh1t it is. Hospitals and EMS were overwhelmed. As were funeral homes and crematoria.

That's not a counter-argument to what I wrote. NYC and New York State presumably had a pandemic playbook, that they also threw out the window based on misinformation from China. They started winging it because they panicked.

In any event, even if the lockdowns and restrictions for a place like NYC were the right call, they might not be the right call for very different parts of the country. That's why it's good that we live in a country where governors could make different decisions.