Which of the T20 schools have the least driven, intense, goal-oriented students?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think you look to Southern California because the weather and outdoors and general vibe will help keep stress and focus on classes in manageable perspective.

So UCLA and Pomona (feel free to chime in those aren’t T20 now 🙄)

UCLA is increasingly extremely intense

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is clear all the angry bitter adults attacking OPs teenager in this thread aren’t on T20 campuses now, because if they were, they would know that there is deep concern among the faculty about precisely what OPs child is reporting.

OP, I suggest your child find a faculty mentor to talk with. She isn’t alone in her concerns, but transferring might not be the answer either. The faculty is very familiar with the problem she’s identified and will be a resource for her. It may take a few tries, but I would counsel her to talk to her professors.

Not getting a lot of anger or bitterness. Most posters seem to be saying...your student is sounding unhappy.

And the solutions seem to be....maybe a different school would be better or maybe she should stop stressing about others students studying all the time and do her own thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is clear all the angry bitter adults attacking OPs teenager in this thread aren’t on T20 campuses now, because if they were, they would know that there is deep concern among the faculty about precisely what OPs child is reporting.

OP, I suggest your child find a faculty mentor to talk with. She isn’t alone in her concerns, but transferring might not be the answer either. The faculty is very familiar with the problem she’s identified and will be a resource for her. It may take a few tries, but I would counsel her to talk to her professors.

oh geez. how is an adult supposed to help a college freshman learn to socialize? ffs. so much helplessness. maybe this kid needs to come home and go to community college.

I mean you are the one calling a teenager you don’t know names. Maybe you aren’t really best positioned to speculate about adults who know how to help their students. It doesn’t seem to be a skill set you’d have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is clear all the angry bitter adults attacking OPs teenager in this thread aren’t on T20 campuses now, because if they were, they would know that there is deep concern among the faculty about precisely what OPs child is reporting.

OP, I suggest your child find a faculty mentor to talk with. She isn’t alone in her concerns, but transferring might not be the answer either. The faculty is very familiar with the problem she’s identified and will be a resource for her. It may take a few tries, but I would counsel her to talk to her professors.

Not getting a lot of anger or bitterness. Most posters seem to be saying...your student is sounding unhappy.

And the solutions seem to be....maybe a different school would be better or maybe she should stop stressing about others students studying all the time and do her own thing.

The crazy lawyer lady up above definitely sounded angry and bitter, or at least weirdly triggered. You have to admit that poster sounded weird.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is clear all the angry bitter adults attacking OPs teenager in this thread aren’t on T20 campuses now, because if they were, they would know that there is deep concern among the faculty about precisely what OPs child is reporting.

OP, I suggest your child find a faculty mentor to talk with. She isn’t alone in her concerns, but transferring might not be the answer either. The faculty is very familiar with the problem she’s identified and will be a resource for her. It may take a few tries, but I would counsel her to talk to her professors.

Not getting a lot of anger or bitterness. Most posters seem to be saying...your student is sounding unhappy.

And the solutions seem to be....maybe a different school would be better or maybe she should stop stressing about others students studying all the time and do her own thing.

The crazy lawyer lady up above definitely sounded angry and bitter, or at least weirdly triggered. You have to admit that poster sounded weird.

A little anger sure, but most posters seem to be looking for a solution. If the competitive culture is a downer....don't get dragged into destructive competition or if that is not possible....try to find a place with a different culture if you can.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread makes me think l hope my kid chooses to go to school in Canada, where I’m from originally. Much easier to get into a great school, and pretty much everyone has a great time. Not a pressure cooker. (I hope it’s still like that!!)

Working hard at a academic pursuits is a great time for some of these students. Some of them like it. They are are finally in an environment where being a nerd is an asset instead of a liability.

This. I’m having a hard time with this thread. College is supposed to be for studying. OP seems to want the “top credentials” for their kid, with none of the effort.

OP I’m sure your kid can find an easy major and the stoner crowd, and enjoy some Gentleman’s Cs.

There is a difference between being in a place where people study for joy and an intense desire to learn and a place where people study because they just want elite As, and they mostly don’t care about the subject matter. The former is heaven for nerds, which is how OP describes her DC. The latter is a Tracy Flick hellscape.

I don’t think OPs child wants “easy.” What my guess that OPs child wants is a classic collegiate learning experience where the primary goal is educational, not achievement. It used to be that those were synonymous in the T20, but they aren’t any more.

OP, I would look at a smaller SLAC. Those tend to be the top academic environments where the students are also motivated by a joy of learning. There are less of them gunning for med school, law school, b-school, venture funding, etc. immediately after graduation and there will be kids willing to take academic risk for the sake of learning in those schools.

You mean T20s were places where the privileged could expect that all the need to do is get admitted, and then slack?

So sad for students finding out they actually have to work hard.

And you’re always free to slack - nobody is going to stop you. I learned this in law school where many “Tracy Flick” types realized that with a strict curve they were always going to get Bs, so they turned their focus elsewhere.

OP’s child is showing really poor character. Can’t bring themselves to study hard. Can’t bring themselves to accept being a B student and focus on their own goals. Can’t accept the reality and instead chooses to blame others and call them names (“grinds” and “Tracey Flicks.”)

Of course you are a lawyer. In any event, you have nicely demonstrated the problem. You are deeply insecure and feel seen by what OP describes (which is a real phenomenon; ask any tenured T20 professor about how many of their students now are driven by a desire for education rather than achievement). You are lashing out at OPs child for having poor character, when OPs child has in fact identified an issue that is widely discussed by academic leaders at T20 schools. Do you think your post makes you look like the calm and rational one? OPs child comes across as far more insightful than you, an adult who is so scared of what OPs child observed that he feels compelled to call a teenager names.

You will never understand the joy of learning a subject purely for the joy of learning. That’s okay, but that means you can’t understand the environment that OPs child wants.

Oh no, you are very wrong. I went to a SLAC and I understand that the “joy of learning” simply means “doing less work.” which is FINE. I have deliberately chosen career paths that allow me to work less. My issue is that instead of owning this OP/kid are mean-spiritedly blaming everything on the other kids being “grinds.” Grow up. If they can’t hack it, transfer.

The OP didn’t call other kids grinds. That was a different PP.

As a lawyer, are you compensated for assumed reading comprehension?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread makes me think l hope my kid chooses to go to school in Canada, where I’m from originally. Much easier to get into a great school, and pretty much everyone has a great time. Not a pressure cooker. (I hope it’s still like that!!)

Working hard at a academic pursuits is a great time for some of these students. Some of them like it. They are are finally in an environment where being a nerd is an asset instead of a liability.

This. I’m having a hard time with this thread. College is supposed to be for studying. OP seems to want the “top credentials” for their kid, with none of the effort.

OP I’m sure your kid can find an easy major and the stoner crowd, and enjoy some Gentleman’s Cs.

There is a difference between being in a place where people study for joy and an intense desire to learn and a place where people study because they just want elite As, and they mostly don’t care about the subject matter. The former is heaven for nerds, which is how OP describes her DC. The latter is a Tracy Flick hellscape.

I don’t think OPs child wants “easy.” What my guess that OPs child wants is a classic collegiate learning experience where the primary goal is educational, not achievement. It used to be that those were synonymous in the T20, but they aren’t any more.

OP, I would look at a smaller SLAC. Those tend to be the top academic environments where the students are also motivated by a joy of learning. There are less of them gunning for med school, law school, b-school, venture funding, etc. immediately after graduation and there will be kids willing to take academic risk for the sake of learning in those schools.

You mean T20s were places where the privileged could expect that all the need to do is get admitted, and then slack?

So sad for students finding out they actually have to work hard.

And you’re always free to slack - nobody is going to stop you. I learned this in law school where many “Tracy Flick” types realized that with a strict curve they were always going to get Bs, so they turned their focus elsewhere.

OP’s child is showing really poor character. Can’t bring themselves to study hard. Can’t bring themselves to accept being a B student and focus on their own goals. Can’t accept the reality and instead chooses to blame others and call them names (“grinds” and “Tracey Flicks.”)

Of course you are a lawyer. In any event, you have nicely demonstrated the problem. You are deeply insecure and feel seen by what OP describes (which is a real phenomenon; ask any tenured T20 professor about how many of their students now are driven by a desire for education rather than achievement). You are lashing out at OPs child for having poor character, when OPs child has in fact identified an issue that is widely discussed by academic leaders at T20 schools. Do you think your post makes you look like the calm and rational one? OPs child comes across as far more insightful than you, an adult who is so scared of what OPs child observed that he feels compelled to call a teenager names.

You will never understand the joy of learning a subject purely for the joy of learning. That’s okay, but that means you can’t understand the environment that OPs child wants.

Oh no, you are very wrong. I went to a SLAC and I understand that the “joy of learning” simply means “doing less work.” which is FINE. I have deliberately chosen career paths that allow me to work less. My issue is that instead of owning this OP/kid are mean-spiritedly blaming everything on the other kids being “grinds.” Grow up. If they can’t hack it, transfer.

The OP didn’t call other kids grinds. That was a different PP.

As a lawyer, are you compensated for assumed reading comprehension?

This is ops take on "grinding".

"nerd =/= grind

My kid, the OP, is a nerd.

Grinding away the day, night, weekend and holidays to get all As and kill your competition is something else entirely. "

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a parent of a freshman a T15 school. Kid thought they were selecting a place commensurate with their [holds nose] top credentials that would nonetheless have a lot of fun kids who don't take themselves seriously and prioritize having a good time. Spoiler alert: this is not UChicago.

Anyway, kid is wrong. Not every student at kid's school is a Tracy Flick, of course, but there are so many of them that the vibe is affected. The seriousness and intensity permeates the dorms, the quad, the on campus coffee places ...

I promise I'm not a troll. Kid is grateful for this opportunity but really surprised at how wrong they were.

OP: It would be helpful to know the school to which your post refers in order to generate more pointed responses.

Broadly speaking, your daughter should look at SLACs--although none are among the top 20 US schools at least in the Wall Street Journal/ Times Higher Education rankings.

Among the top 20 National Universities, Brown University is the clear answer due to very limited requirements and student friendly grading policies. At other top 20s (all National Universities) one should find less demanding majors.

If you want a stoner type atmosphere, then I encourage your son/daughter to look at LACs such as Grinnnell College (a top 20 LAC). Another LAC--although not a top 20--where having fun is king is Colorado College (students take one course at a time for a few weeks before enjoying a long weekend break. Lots of recreational drugs.)

Haverford College, a top 20 LAC, has students who seem more focused on being more socially correct than on getting a high paying job/career after college.

Maybe Bowdoin College--a top 5 SLAC--is the school that your son/daughter is seeking.

Wesleyan University--also not a top 20--is much less intense than any top 20 school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread makes me think l hope my kid chooses to go to school in Canada, where I’m from originally. Much easier to get into a great school, and pretty much everyone has a great time. Not a pressure cooker. (I hope it’s still like that!!)

Working hard at a academic pursuits is a great time for some of these students. Some of them like it. They are are finally in an environment where being a nerd is an asset instead of a liability.

This. I’m having a hard time with this thread. College is supposed to be for studying. OP seems to want the “top credentials” for their kid, with none of the effort.

OP I’m sure your kid can find an easy major and the stoner crowd, and enjoy some Gentleman’s Cs.

OP here. This is a little mean, since you’re responding to me pointedly while relying on thread drift for your facts. OP’s *KID* sought out and is already attending a top school. There are no Cs. Kid just wants to socialize more than once a month and locate similar friends who accept a 93 instead of pulling all-nighters for the 96.5 Tracy Flick. Did she have fun?

It is instructive that no one has first- or second-hand experience with a objectively top school that has a fun campus vibe.

It’s also telling that the PPs are insulting OPs kid but can’t talk about how they enjoyed their own college experience. I think they are still resentful of the kids that managed to do well and yet still enjoy college, something that is increasingly rare on T20 campuses.

Doing well is subjective. OPs standard of doing well is not matching up with that of some of the other students at the college.

So what? If she is satisfied with her education, don't get overly involved in what another is doing.

Exactly. There’s no doubt that there are kids on campus who like to party. What is happening here is that OP and their kid cannot accept not being the elite in this school. It’s harder than they thought it would be. That’s OK!

I shouldn’t take the bait … I’m OP. Academic work is actually easier than kid thought it would be. Kid’s grades are excellent and despite what a lot of PPs fervently wish, kid is at the top of their classes Professors say as much.

What IS much harder than they thought it would be is locating someone to catch a show or grab a sandwich. Let alone a beer. They’d be happy with a shared sandwich. They’re just very surprised at the apparently absence of balance. They will keep trying

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread makes me think l hope my kid chooses to go to school in Canada, where I’m from originally. Much easier to get into a great school, and pretty much everyone has a great time. Not a pressure cooker. (I hope it’s still like that!!)

Working hard at a academic pursuits is a great time for some of these students. Some of them like it. They are are finally in an environment where being a nerd is an asset instead of a liability.

This. I’m having a hard time with this thread. College is supposed to be for studying. OP seems to want the “top credentials” for their kid, with none of the effort.

OP I’m sure your kid can find an easy major and the stoner crowd, and enjoy some Gentleman’s Cs.

OP here. This is a little mean, since you’re responding to me pointedly while relying on thread drift for your facts. OP’s *KID* sought out and is already attending a top school. There are no Cs. Kid just wants to socialize more than once a month and locate similar friends who accept a 93 instead of pulling all-nighters for the 96.5 Tracy Flick. Did she have fun?

It is instructive that no one has first- or second-hand experience with a objectively top school that has a fun campus vibe.

It’s also telling that the PPs are insulting OPs kid but can’t talk about how they enjoyed their own college experience. I think they are still resentful of the kids that managed to do well and yet still enjoy college, something that is increasingly rare on T20 campuses.

Doing well is subjective. OPs standard of doing well is not matching up with that of some of the other students at the college.

So what? If she is satisfied with her education, don't get overly involved in what another is doing.

Exactly. There’s no doubt that there are kids on campus who like to party. What is happening here is that OP and their kid cannot accept not being the elite in this school. It’s harder than they thought it would be. That’s OK!

I shouldn’t take the bait … I’m OP. Academic work is actually easier than kid thought it would be. Kid’s grades are excellent and despite what a lot of PPs fervently wish, kid is at the top of their classes Professors say as much.

What IS much harder than they thought it would be is locating someone to catch a show or grab a sandwich. Let alone a beer. They’d be happy with a shared sandwich. They’re just very surprised at the apparently absence of balance. They will keep trying

Is the student at an SLAC ? If not, which major ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not sure why people are being hard on OP. It’s actually a good cautionary tale for all who are gunning for top 15. When I went to a top 15 30 years ago, once you got there there were plenty of kids who didn’t take themselves too seriously. That may be less the case today - I don’t know but it’s worth exploring and considering that even if you get in you might not like it.

OP here again. YES to this. DH “doesn’t understand the problem” because when he went to a top 5 school in the 80s, he had tons of time to go out at night in Boston or New York — with all his dorm mates. He was summa cum laude and says they went to the bars several times a week, played intramural sports, went to the museum, traveled in weekend to pro sports games in the northeast.

So far, kid detects almost none of this. Ive been to their campus - I see what they mean

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread makes me think l hope my kid chooses to go to school in Canada, where I’m from originally. Much easier to get into a great school, and pretty much everyone has a great time. Not a pressure cooker. (I hope it’s still like that!!)

Working hard at a academic pursuits is a great time for some of these students. Some of them like it. They are are finally in an environment where being a nerd is an asset instead of a liability.

This. I’m having a hard time with this thread. College is supposed to be for studying. OP seems to want the “top credentials” for their kid, with none of the effort.

OP I’m sure your kid can find an easy major and the stoner crowd, and enjoy some Gentleman’s Cs.

OP here. This is a little mean, since you’re responding to me pointedly while relying on thread drift for your facts. OP’s *KID* sought out and is already attending a top school. There are no Cs. Kid just wants to socialize more than once a month and locate similar friends who accept a 93 instead of pulling all-nighters for the 96.5 Tracy Flick. Did she have fun?

It is instructive that no one has first- or second-hand experience with a objectively top school that has a fun campus vibe.

It’s also telling that the PPs are insulting OPs kid but can’t talk about how they enjoyed their own college experience. I think they are still resentful of the kids that managed to do well and yet still enjoy college, something that is increasingly rare on T20 campuses.

Doing well is subjective. OPs standard of doing well is not matching up with that of some of the other students at the college.

So what? If she is satisfied with her education, don't get overly involved in what another is doing.

Exactly. There’s no doubt that there are kids on campus who like to party. What is happening here is that OP and their kid cannot accept not being the elite in this school. It’s harder than they thought it would be. That’s OK!

I shouldn’t take the bait … I’m OP. Academic work is actually easier than kid thought it would be. Kid’s grades are excellent and despite what a lot of PPs fervently wish, kid is at the top of their classes Professors say as much.

What IS much harder than they thought it would be is locating someone to catch a show or grab a sandwich. Let alone a beer. They’d be happy with a shared sandwich. They’re just very surprised at the apparently absence of balance. They will keep trying

Could your student seek out some classes that would be very academically challenging for her. Maybe she could relate better to some of the others that have to put in tons of time to master the material.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a parent of a freshman a T15 school. Kid thought they were selecting a place commensurate with their [holds nose] top credentials that would nonetheless have a lot of fun kids who don't take themselves seriously and prioritize having a good time. Spoiler alert: this is not UChicago.

Anyway, kid is wrong. Not every student at kid's school is a Tracy Flick, of course, but there are so many of them that the vibe is affected. The seriousness and intensity permeates the dorms, the quad, the on campus coffee places ...

I promise I'm not a troll. Kid is grateful for this opportunity but really surprised at how wrong they were.

OP: It would be helpful to know the school to which your post refers in order to generate more pointed responses.

Broadly speaking, your daughter should look at SLACs--although none are among the top 20 US schools at least in the Wall Street Journal/ Times Higher Education rankings.

Among the top 20 National Universities, Brown University is the clear answer due to very limited requirements and student friendly grading policies. At other top 20s (all National Universities) one should find less demanding majors.

If you want a stoner type atmosphere, then I encourage your son/daughter to look at LACs such as Grinnnell College (a top 20 LAC). Another LAC--although not a top 20--where having fun is king is Colorado College (students take one course at a time for a few weeks before enjoying a long weekend break. Lots of recreational drugs.)

Haverford College, a top 20 LAC, has students who seem more focused on being more socially correct than on getting a high paying job/career after college.

Maybe Bowdoin College--a top 5 SLAC--is the school that your son/daughter is seeking.

Wesleyan University--also not a top 20--is much less intense than any top 20 school.

My kid attends a national university that is always in the top 15 for rankings. I don’t think they’d transfer at this point but I wonder if it’s crossed their mind

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is clear all the angry bitter adults attacking OPs teenager in this thread aren’t on T20 campuses now, because if they were, they would know that there is deep concern among the faculty about precisely what OPs child is reporting.

OP, I suggest your child find a faculty mentor to talk with. She isn’t alone in her concerns, but transferring might not be the answer either. The faculty is very familiar with the problem she’s identified and will be a resource for her. It may take a few tries, but I would counsel her to talk to her professors.

Not getting a lot of anger or bitterness. Most posters seem to be saying...your student is sounding unhappy.

And the solutions seem to be....maybe a different school would be better or maybe she should stop stressing about others students studying all the time and do her own thing.

The crazy lawyer lady up above definitely sounded angry and bitter, or at least weirdly triggered. You have to admit that poster sounded weird.

A little anger sure, but most posters seem to be looking for a solution. If the competitive culture is a downer....don't get dragged into destructive competition or if that is not possible....try to find a place with a different culture if you can.

You must not have read the posts openly insulting OPs child. Yes, definitely angry and bitter. Why else would adults attack a teenager?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not sure why people are being hard on OP. It’s actually a good cautionary tale for all who are gunning for top 15. When I went to a top 15 30 years ago, once you got there there were plenty of kids who didn’t take themselves too seriously. That may be less the case today - I don’t know but it’s worth exploring and considering that even if you get in you might not like it.

OP here again. YES to this. DH “doesn’t understand the problem” because when he went to a top 5 school in the 80s, he had tons of time to go out at night in Boston or New York — with all his dorm mates. He was summa cum laude and says they went to the bars several times a week, played intramural sports, went to the museum, traveled in weekend to pro sports games in the northeast.

So far, kid detects almost none of this. Ive been to their campus - I see what they mean

Ummmmm that was 40 years ago. Kids that are stem majors....forget it...they have 40 more years of progress in the field to start to try to master

But the same holds for other fields as well. There is never less knowledge gained ...it builds on itself and there is more to learn.