Which of the T20 schools have the least driven, intense, goal-oriented students?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread makes me think l hope my kid chooses to go to school in Canada, where I’m from originally. Much easier to get into a great school, and pretty much everyone has a great time. Not a pressure cooker. (I hope it’s still like that!!)

Working hard at a academic pursuits is a great time for some of these students. Some of them like it. They are are finally in an environment where being a nerd is an asset instead of a liability.

This. I’m having a hard time with this thread. College is supposed to be for studying. OP seems to want the “top credentials” for their kid, with none of the effort.

OP I’m sure your kid can find an easy major and the stoner crowd, and enjoy some Gentleman’s Cs.

OP here. This is a little mean, since you’re responding to me pointedly while relying on thread drift for your facts. OP’s *KID* sought out and is already attending a top school. There are no Cs. Kid just wants to socialize more than once a month and locate similar friends who accept a 93 instead of pulling all-nighters for the 96.5 Tracy Flick. Did she have fun?

It is instructive that no one has first- or second-hand experience with a objectively top school that has a fun campus vibe.

What my little nerd considers fun does not sound like it would be fun for your DC. The vast majority of time is spent in academics which your DC calls grinding which I am assuming is a negative characterization for your DC.

DC blows off steam in some non academic club activities but also has an academic club and a part time job in an academic department. But there is not loads of time for parties or travel or things a lot of college kids do for fun. DC is happy but I don't think it is for everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread makes me think l hope my kid chooses to go to school in Canada, where I’m from originally. Much easier to get into a great school, and pretty much everyone has a great time. Not a pressure cooker. (I hope it’s still like that!!)

Working hard at a academic pursuits is a great time for some of these students. Some of them like it. They are are finally in an environment where being a nerd is an asset instead of a liability.

This. I’m having a hard time with this thread. College is supposed to be for studying. OP seems to want the “top credentials” for their kid, with none of the effort.

OP I’m sure your kid can find an easy major and the stoner crowd, and enjoy some Gentleman’s Cs.

OP here. This is a little mean, since you’re responding to me pointedly while relying on thread drift for your facts. OP’s *KID* sought out and is already attending a top school. There are no Cs. Kid just wants to socialize more than once a month and locate similar friends who accept a 93 instead of pulling all-nighters for the 96.5 Tracy Flick. Did she have fun?

It is instructive that no one has first- or second-hand experience with a objectively top school that has a fun campus vibe.

It’s also telling that the PPs are insulting OPs kid but can’t talk about how they enjoyed their own college experience. I think they are still resentful of the kids that managed to do well and yet still enjoy college, something that is increasingly rare on T20 campuses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread makes me think l hope my kid chooses to go to school in Canada, where I’m from originally. Much easier to get into a great school, and pretty much everyone has a great time. Not a pressure cooker. (I hope it’s still like that!!)

Working hard at a academic pursuits is a great time for some of these students. Some of them like it. They are are finally in an environment where being a nerd is an asset instead of a liability.

This. I’m having a hard time with this thread. College is supposed to be for studying. OP seems to want the “top credentials” for their kid, with none of the effort.

OP I’m sure your kid can find an easy major and the stoner crowd, and enjoy some Gentleman’s Cs.

There is a difference between being in a place where people study for joy and an intense desire to learn and a place where people study because they just want elite As, and they mostly don’t care about the subject matter. The former is heaven for nerds, which is how OP describes her DC. The latter is a Tracy Flick hellscape.

I don’t think OPs child wants “easy.” What my guess that OPs child wants is a classic collegiate learning experience where the primary goal is educational, not achievement. It used to be that those were synonymous in the T20, but they aren’t any more.

OP, I would look at a smaller SLAC. Those tend to be the top academic environments where the students are also motivated by a joy of learning. There are less of them gunning for med school, law school, b-school, venture funding, etc. immediately after graduation and there will be kids willing to take academic risk for the sake of learning in those schools.

You mean T20s were places where the privileged could expect that all the need to do is get admitted, and then slack?

So sad for students finding out they actually have to work hard.

And you’re always free to slack - nobody is going to stop you. I learned this in law school where many “Tracy Flick” types realized that with a strict curve they were always going to get Bs, so they turned their focus elsewhere.

OP’s child is showing really poor character. Can’t bring themselves to study hard. Can’t bring themselves to accept being a B student and focus on their own goals. Can’t accept the reality and instead chooses to blame others and call them names (“grinds” and “Tracey Flicks.”)

Of course you are a lawyer. In any event, you have nicely demonstrated the problem. You are deeply insecure and feel seen by what OP describes (which is a real phenomenon; ask any tenured T20 professor about how many of their students now are driven by a desire for education rather than achievement). You are lashing out at OPs child for having poor character, when OPs child has in fact identified an issue that is widely discussed by academic leaders at T20 schools. Do you think your post makes you look like the calm and rational one? OPs child comes across as far more insightful than you, an adult who is so scared of what OPs child observed that he feels compelled to call a teenager names.

You will never understand the joy of learning a subject purely for the joy of learning. That’s okay, but that means you can’t understand the environment that OPs child wants.

Oh no, you are very wrong. I went to a SLAC and I understand that the “joy of learning” simply means “doing less work.” which is FINE. I have deliberately chosen career paths that allow me to work less. My issue is that instead of owning this OP/kid are mean-spiritedly blaming everything on the other kids being “grinds.” Grow up. If they can’t hack it, transfer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread makes me think l hope my kid chooses to go to school in Canada, where I’m from originally. Much easier to get into a great school, and pretty much everyone has a great time. Not a pressure cooker. (I hope it’s still like that!!)

Working hard at a academic pursuits is a great time for some of these students. Some of them like it. They are are finally in an environment where being a nerd is an asset instead of a liability.

This. I’m having a hard time with this thread. College is supposed to be for studying. OP seems to want the “top credentials” for their kid, with none of the effort.

OP I’m sure your kid can find an easy major and the stoner crowd, and enjoy some Gentleman’s Cs.

OP here. This is a little mean, since you’re responding to me pointedly while relying on thread drift for your facts. OP’s *KID* sought out and is already attending a top school. There are no Cs. Kid just wants to socialize more than once a month and locate similar friends who accept a 93 instead of pulling all-nighters for the 96.5 Tracy Flick. Did she have fun?

It is instructive that no one has first- or second-hand experience with a objectively top school that has a fun campus vibe.

It’s also telling that the PPs are insulting OPs kid but can’t talk about how they enjoyed their own college experience. I think they are still resentful of the kids that managed to do well and yet still enjoy college, something that is increasingly rare on T20 campuses.

Doing well is subjective. OPs standard of doing well is not matching up with that of some of the other students at the college.

So what? If she is satisfied with her education, don't get overly involved in what another is doing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, it’s a real problem. You aren’t going to find a T20 that isn’t largely populated by Tracy Flicks. Sorry.

Especially nowadays given what it takes to get into a t 20. Might have been different 25 years ago

25 years ago you could get the disorganized geniuses who walked into the SATs and got 1600 without studying and who kept up a 3.7 or so GPA by never doing the homework but acing the tests. Perfect and intense executive function wasn’t a skill set universally required for admissions back then. But the admissions have changed to essentially remove the quirky geniuses from the student population, because you are only getting into a T20 if you have the executive functioning skills of a mid-career project manager. Hence schools populated almost entirely by Tracy Flicks. Even the athletes are Tracy Flicks. It’s kind of bizarre.

This whole notion that there were all these "disorganized geniuses " in earlier years, and kids now are just well organized with the "geniuses" getting shut out is silly. Back in my day 1600 was an unheard of score. Kids who did well were likely natural test takers with parents who valued education and/or in good schools. We weren't necessarily smarter than kids who didn't score as well. You didn't find these natural Good Will Hunting " geniuses laying about. That is just nonsense. Kids these days are working hard to demonstrate their intellect, artistic talent and work ethic. And, competition is tough. It's not like the "true geniuses" are getting shut out by average bureaucrats. In fact, back in the day, a lot more spaces were going to legacy and connected. Now, kids are submitting evidence of far more course rigor than we had plus talents, etc

I knew multiple kids who got 1580 and 1600 without studying or prepping in the 1980s.

There were very few kids scored 1600 in the 80s. If you scored a 1600 in SAT, your name would be published in WaPo.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread makes me think l hope my kid chooses to go to school in Canada, where I’m from originally. Much easier to get into a great school, and pretty much everyone has a great time. Not a pressure cooker. (I hope it’s still like that!!)

Working hard at a academic pursuits is a great time for some of these students. Some of them like it. They are are finally in an environment where being a nerd is an asset instead of a liability.

This. I’m having a hard time with this thread. College is supposed to be for studying. OP seems to want the “top credentials” for their kid, with none of the effort.

OP I’m sure your kid can find an easy major and the stoner crowd, and enjoy some Gentleman’s Cs.

OP here. This is a little mean, since you’re responding to me pointedly while relying on thread drift for your facts. OP’s *KID* sought out and is already attending a top school. There are no Cs. Kid just wants to socialize more than once a month and locate similar friends who accept a 93 instead of pulling all-nighters for the 96.5 Tracy Flick. Did she have fun?

It is instructive that no one has first- or second-hand experience with a objectively top school that has a fun campus vibe.

It’s also telling that the PPs are insulting OPs kid but can’t talk about how they enjoyed their own college experience. I think they are still resentful of the kids that managed to do well and yet still enjoy college, something that is increasingly rare on T20 campuses.

Doing well is subjective. OPs standard of doing well is not matching up with that of some of the other students at the college.

So what? If she is satisfied with her education, don't get overly involved in what another is doing.

Exactly. There’s no doubt that there are kids on campus who like to party. What is happening here is that OP and their kid cannot accept not being the elite in this school. It’s harder than they thought it would be. That’s OK!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread makes me think l hope my kid chooses to go to school in Canada, where I’m from originally. Much easier to get into a great school, and pretty much everyone has a great time. Not a pressure cooker. (I hope it’s still like that!!)

Working hard at a academic pursuits is a great time for some of these students. Some of them like it. They are are finally in an environment where being a nerd is an asset instead of a liability.

This. I’m having a hard time with this thread. College is supposed to be for studying. OP seems to want the “top credentials” for their kid, with none of the effort.

OP I’m sure your kid can find an easy major and the stoner crowd, and enjoy some Gentleman’s Cs.

OP here. This is a little mean, since you’re responding to me pointedly while relying on thread drift for your facts. OP’s *KID* sought out and is already attending a top school. There are no Cs. Kid just wants to socialize more than once a month and locate similar friends who accept a 93 instead of pulling all-nighters for the 96.5 Tracy Flick. Did she have fun?

It is instructive that no one has first- or second-hand experience with a objectively top school that has a fun campus vibe.

What my little nerd considers fun does not sound like it would be fun for your DC. The vast majority of time is spent in academics which your DC calls grinding which I am assuming is a negative characterization for your DC.

DC blows off steam in some non academic club activities but also has an academic club and a part time job in an academic department. But there is not loads of time for parties or travel or things a lot of college kids do for fun. DC is happy but I don't think it is for everyone.

You do realize that what OP is describing is something that deeply concerns many T20 professors? This isn’t coming out of the blue.

OP is not talking about a kid who wants to attend drunken frat parties every weekend. She’s talking about a kid who wants dormmates who are willing to stay up late debating Nussbaum versus Butler and possibly risk getting a 95 versus a 97 because they talked philosophy rather than making one more flashcard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, it’s a real problem. You aren’t going to find a T20 that isn’t largely populated by Tracy Flicks. Sorry.

Especially nowadays given what it takes to get into a t 20. Might have been different 25 years ago

25 years ago you could get the disorganized geniuses who walked into the SATs and got 1600 without studying and who kept up a 3.7 or so GPA by never doing the homework but acing the tests. Perfect and intense executive function wasn’t a skill set universally required for admissions back then. But the admissions have changed to essentially remove the quirky geniuses from the student population, because you are only getting into a T20 if you have the executive functioning skills of a mid-career project manager. Hence schools populated almost entirely by Tracy Flicks. Even the athletes are Tracy Flicks. It’s kind of bizarre.

This whole notion that there were all these "disorganized geniuses " in earlier years, and kids now are just well organized with the "geniuses" getting shut out is silly. Back in my day 1600 was an unheard of score. Kids who did well were likely natural test takers with parents who valued education and/or in good schools. We weren't necessarily smarter than kids who didn't score as well. You didn't find these natural Good Will Hunting " geniuses laying about. That is just nonsense. Kids these days are working hard to demonstrate their intellect, artistic talent and work ethic. And, competition is tough. It's not like the "true geniuses" are getting shut out by average bureaucrats. In fact, back in the day, a lot more spaces were going to legacy and connected. Now, kids are submitting evidence of far more course rigor than we had plus talents, etc

I knew multiple kids who got 1580 and 1600 without studying or prepping in the 1980s.

There were very few kids scored 1600 in the 80s. If you scored a 1600 in SAT, your name would be published in WaPo.

Yes. And I knew one of them. Name was in the paper, yes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread makes me think l hope my kid chooses to go to school in Canada, where I’m from originally. Much easier to get into a great school, and pretty much everyone has a great time. Not a pressure cooker. (I hope it’s still like that!!)

Working hard at a academic pursuits is a great time for some of these students. Some of them like it. They are are finally in an environment where being a nerd is an asset instead of a liability.

This. I’m having a hard time with this thread. College is supposed to be for studying. OP seems to want the “top credentials” for their kid, with none of the effort.

OP I’m sure your kid can find an easy major and the stoner crowd, and enjoy some Gentleman’s Cs.

OP here. This is a little mean, since you’re responding to me pointedly while relying on thread drift for your facts. OP’s *KID* sought out and is already attending a top school. There are no Cs. Kid just wants to socialize more than once a month and locate similar friends who accept a 93 instead of pulling all-nighters for the 96.5 Tracy Flick. Did she have fun?

It is instructive that no one has first- or second-hand experience with a objectively top school that has a fun campus vibe.

What my little nerd considers fun does not sound like it would be fun for your DC. The vast majority of time is spent in academics which your DC calls grinding which I am assuming is a negative characterization for your DC.

DC blows off steam in some non academic club activities but also has an academic club and a part time job in an academic department. But there is not loads of time for parties or travel or things a lot of college kids do for fun. DC is happy but I don't think it is for everyone.

You do realize that what OP is describing is something that deeply concerns many T20 professors? This isn’t coming out of the blue.

OP is not talking about a kid who wants to attend drunken frat parties every weekend. She’s talking about a kid who wants dormmates who are willing to stay up late debating Nussbaum versus Butler and possibly risk getting a 95 versus a 97 because they talked philosophy rather than making one more flashcard.

There are definitely kids like that if what my DC is describing is accurate.

[Anonymous]

Not sure why people are being hard on OP. It’s actually a good cautionary tale for all who are gunning for top 15. When I went to a top 15 30 years ago, once you got there there were plenty of kids who didn’t take themselves too seriously. That may be less the case today - I don’t know but it’s worth exploring and considering that even if you get in you might not like it.

[Anonymous]

It is clear all the angry bitter adults attacking OPs teenager in this thread aren’t on T20 campuses now, because if they were, they would know that there is deep concern among the faculty about precisely what OPs child is reporting.

OP, I suggest your child find a faculty mentor to talk with. She isn’t alone in her concerns, but transferring might not be the answer either. The faculty is very familiar with the problem she’s identified and will be a resource for her. It may take a few tries, but I would counsel her to talk to her professors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread makes me think l hope my kid chooses to go to school in Canada, where I’m from originally. Much easier to get into a great school, and pretty much everyone has a great time. Not a pressure cooker. (I hope it’s still like that!!)

Working hard at a academic pursuits is a great time for some of these students. Some of them like it. They are are finally in an environment where being a nerd is an asset instead of a liability.

This. I’m having a hard time with this thread. College is supposed to be for studying. OP seems to want the “top credentials” for their kid, with none of the effort.

OP I’m sure your kid can find an easy major and the stoner crowd, and enjoy some Gentleman’s Cs.

OP here. This is a little mean, since you’re responding to me pointedly while relying on thread drift for your facts. OP’s *KID* sought out and is already attending a top school. There are no Cs. Kid just wants to socialize more than once a month and locate similar friends who accept a 93 instead of pulling all-nighters for the 96.5 Tracy Flick. Did she have fun?

It is instructive that no one has first- or second-hand experience with a objectively top school that has a fun campus vibe.

What my little nerd considers fun does not sound like it would be fun for your DC. The vast majority of time is spent in academics which your DC calls grinding which I am assuming is a negative characterization for your DC.

DC blows off steam in some non academic club activities but also has an academic club and a part time job in an academic department. But there is not loads of time for parties or travel or things a lot of college kids do for fun. DC is happy but I don't think it is for everyone.

You do realize that what OP is describing is something that deeply concerns many T20 professors? This isn’t coming out of the blue.

OP is not talking about a kid who wants to attend drunken frat parties every weekend. She’s talking about a kid who wants dormmates who are willing to stay up late debating Nussbaum versus Butler and possibly risk getting a 95 versus a 97 because they talked philosophy rather than making one more flashcard.

ok, sure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread makes me think l hope my kid chooses to go to school in Canada, where I’m from originally. Much easier to get into a great school, and pretty much everyone has a great time. Not a pressure cooker. (I hope it’s still like that!!)

Working hard at a academic pursuits is a great time for some of these students. Some of them like it. They are are finally in an environment where being a nerd is an asset instead of a liability.

This. I’m having a hard time with this thread. College is supposed to be for studying. OP seems to want the “top credentials” for their kid, with none of the effort.

OP I’m sure your kid can find an easy major and the stoner crowd, and enjoy some Gentleman’s Cs.

OP here. This is a little mean, since you’re responding to me pointedly while relying on thread drift for your facts. OP’s *KID* sought out and is already attending a top school. There are no Cs. Kid just wants to socialize more than once a month and locate similar friends who accept a 93 instead of pulling all-nighters for the 96.5 Tracy Flick. Did she have fun?

It is instructive that no one has first- or second-hand experience with a objectively top school that has a fun campus vibe.

It’s also telling that the PPs are insulting OPs kid but can’t talk about how they enjoyed their own college experience. I think they are still resentful of the kids that managed to do well and yet still enjoy college, something that is increasingly rare on T20 campuses.

Truth

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is clear all the angry bitter adults attacking OPs teenager in this thread aren’t on T20 campuses now, because if they were, they would know that there is deep concern among the faculty about precisely what OPs child is reporting.

OP, I suggest your child find a faculty mentor to talk with. She isn’t alone in her concerns, but transferring might not be the answer either. The faculty is very familiar with the problem she’s identified and will be a resource for her. It may take a few tries, but I would counsel her to talk to her professors.

oh geez. how is an adult supposed to help a college freshman learn to socialize? ffs. so much helplessness. maybe this kid needs to come home and go to community college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread makes me think l hope my kid chooses to go to school in Canada, where I’m from originally. Much easier to get into a great school, and pretty much everyone has a great time. Not a pressure cooker. (I hope it’s still like that!!)

Working hard at a academic pursuits is a great time for some of these students. Some of them like it. They are are finally in an environment where being a nerd is an asset instead of a liability.

This. I’m having a hard time with this thread. College is supposed to be for studying. OP seems to want the “top credentials” for their kid, with none of the effort.

OP I’m sure your kid can find an easy major and the stoner crowd, and enjoy some Gentleman’s Cs.

OP here. This is a little mean, since you’re responding to me pointedly while relying on thread drift for your facts. OP’s *KID* sought out and is already attending a top school. There are no Cs. Kid just wants to socialize more than once a month and locate similar friends who accept a 93 instead of pulling all-nighters for the 96.5 Tracy Flick. Did she have fun?

It is instructive that no one has first- or second-hand experience with a objectively top school that has a fun campus vibe.

What my little nerd considers fun does not sound like it would be fun for your DC. The vast majority of time is spent in academics which your DC calls grinding which I am assuming is a negative characterization for your DC.

DC blows off steam in some non academic club activities but also has an academic club and a part time job in an academic department. But there is not loads of time for parties or travel or things a lot of college kids do for fun. DC is happy but I don't think it is for everyone.

You do realize that what OP is describing is something that deeply concerns many T20 professors? This isn’t coming out of the blue.

OP is not talking about a kid who wants to attend drunken frat parties every weekend. She’s talking about a kid who wants dormmates who are willing to stay up late debating Nussbaum versus Butler and possibly risk getting a 95 versus a 97 because they talked philosophy rather than making one more flashcard.

There are definitely kids like that if what my DC is describing is accurate.

Sure, there are a few fish out of water anywhere. But those kids are increasingly rare in T20 schools.