Which of the T20 schools have the least driven, intense, goal-oriented students?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If a relaxed, non competitive vibe is really important...I don't think T20 is the place to look.

This. You have to be driven/intense/goal-oriented to get into those schools.

Ok but Harvard and Columbia are not looking to be known for their great social atmosphere for young adults. Did any of you tour these places? They don't pretend that that are not in the business of academic excellence and achievement.

Guess you haven’t been following the Harvard Supreme Court case, and the emphasis Harvard admissions places on “personality.”

Look. I pay attention. Every year, our public high school send a few off to these type of schools. Asian, white, whatever ....they are all very competitive students that are goal oriented. Very fine students but certainly not laid back or known for being the life of the party.

[Anonymous]

Lots of money driven jerks go to schools with business and finance programs. You won't see many super intelligent dreaming of making money for rich people and corporations.

[Anonymous]

True. For super intelligent, money comes as a side effect but it's never the goal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a parent of a freshman a T15 school. Kid thought they were selecting a place commensurate with their [holds nose] top credentials that would nonetheless have a lot of fun kids who don't take themselves seriously and prioritize having a good time. Spoiler alert: this is not UChicago.

Anyway, kid is wrong. Not every student at kid's school is a Tracy Flick, of course, but there are so many of them that the vibe is affected. The seriousness and intensity permeates the dorms, the quad, the on campus coffee places ...

I promise I'm not a troll. Kid is grateful for this opportunity but really surprised at how wrong they were.

I'd rank the "lowest a-hole percentage" among T20 as follows:
Vandy
Rice

Northwestern

UCLA









most of the rest










Harvard









































Duke

UCLA? Seemed like a barbie and Ken hellscape of eating disorders and who had a car that was deemed worthy from what I could see. Like all the Tracy flick energy was devoted to social life instead of academics. Opposite of laid back in my view but whatever floats your boat I guess

What? Do you know anything about UCLA?? My DC is a junior and I can say from experience that these kids work hard and play hard. UCLA has it all - top academics, super driven and motivated students, and an amazing social life for all types of kids. My DC is having the time of his/her life, has a great circle of friends, and you just can't beat the LA lifestyle. DC's friends are all super-accomplished and have had amazing internships at top companies all over the country. The opportunities for outside school activities are endless - mountains, ocean, food scene, etc.

Now mind you- UCLA is not for the faint at heart. Those who want a nurturing, small environment that you find in a SLAC will not be happy there. This school is for go-getters who can advocate for themselves because there is no hand-holding or coddling at UCLA. One must figure things out for themselves most of the time.

PP here mentions the rich kids. Yes, they are there. However, UCLA most likely has the largest percentage of first gen students of any top 20 school. And it is super diverse - students are from all walks of life - much more than the 19 privates ahead of it in the stupid rankings.

And did I mention how gorgeous the campus is and how cool Westwood is?? It's the best of both worlds - cute college town in the middle of a world-class city. There's a reason they got 130K apps last year. Highly recommend it for serious students who also like to have a great social life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would love to know what school this is so I can tell my DS. He is hooked and in contention for many t20s (4.0, valedictorian probably, 1580, great ECs), but I know he also wants to have fun in college. He's already taken UChicago off his list because he has not heard great things about the social atmosphere there. Any other ones he should avoid?

Hooked how?

DS is at Chicago. He is having a great time. He’s found his crowd. Dorky, nerdy, goofy kids who like the same hobbies he does. He’s happier than he ever was in high school. Classes are hard I guess, but he says nothing he hasn’t seen in high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a parent of a freshman a T15 school. Kid thought they were selecting a place commensurate with their [holds nose] top credentials that would nonetheless have a lot of fun kids who don't take themselves seriously and prioritize having a good time. Spoiler alert: this is not UChicago.

Anyway, kid is wrong. Not every student at kid's school is a Tracy Flick, of course, but there are so many of them that the vibe is affected. The seriousness and intensity permeates the dorms, the quad, the on campus coffee places ...

I promise I'm not a troll. Kid is grateful for this opportunity but really surprised at how wrong they were.

I'd rank the "lowest a-hole percentage" among T20 as follows:
Vandy
Rice

Northwestern

UCLA









most of the rest










Harvard









































Duke

UCLA? Seemed like a barbie and Ken hellscape of eating disorders and who had a car that was deemed worthy from what I could see. Like all the Tracy flick energy was devoted to social life instead of academics. Opposite of laid back in my view but whatever floats your boat I guess

What? Do you know anything about UCLA?? My DC is a junior and I can say from experience that these kids work hard and play hard. UCLA has it all - top academics, super driven and motivated students, and an amazing social life for all types of kids. My DC is having the time of his/her life, has a great circle of friends, and you just can't beat the LA lifestyle. DC's friends are all super-accomplished and have had amazing internships at top companies all over the country. The opportunities for outside school activities are endless - mountains, ocean, food scene, etc.

Now mind you- UCLA is not for the faint at heart. Those who want a nurturing, small environment that you find in a SLAC will not be happy there. This school is for go-getters who can advocate for themselves because there is no hand-holding or coddling at UCLA. One must figure things out for themselves most of the time.

PP here mentions the rich kids. Yes, they are there. However, UCLA most likely has the largest percentage of first gen students of any top 20 school. And it is super diverse - students are from all walks of life - much more than the 19 privates ahead of it in the stupid rankings.

And did I mention how gorgeous the campus is and how cool Westwood is?? It's the best of both worlds - cute college town in the middle of a world-class city. There's a reason they got 130K apps last year. Highly recommend it for serious students who also like to have a great social life.

Agree with all of this until you got to Westwood village, it’s a shadow of its former self. Hopefully businesses will comeback now that the Covid restrictions are over.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a parent of a freshman a T15 school. Kid thought they were selecting a place commensurate with their [holds nose] top credentials that would nonetheless have a lot of fun kids who don't take themselves seriously and prioritize having a good time. Spoiler alert: this is not UChicago.

Anyway, kid is wrong. Not every student at kid's school is a Tracy Flick, of course, but there are so many of them that the vibe is affected. The seriousness and intensity permeates the dorms, the quad, the on campus coffee places ...

I promise I'm not a troll. Kid is grateful for this opportunity but really surprised at how wrong they were.

I'd rank the "lowest a-hole percentage" among T20 as follows:
Vandy
Rice

Northwestern

UCLA









most of the rest










Harvard









































Duke

UCLA? Seemed like a barbie and Ken hellscape of eating disorders and who had a car that was deemed worthy from what I could see. Like all the Tracy flick energy was devoted to social life instead of academics. Opposite of laid back in my view but whatever floats your boat I guess

What? Do you know anything about UCLA?? My DC is a junior and I can say from experience that these kids work hard and play hard. UCLA has it all - top academics, super driven and motivated students, and an amazing social life for all types of kids. My DC is having the time of his/her life, has a great circle of friends, and you just can't beat the LA lifestyle. DC's friends are all super-accomplished and have had amazing internships at top companies all over the country. The opportunities for outside school activities are endless - mountains, ocean, food scene, etc.

Now mind you- UCLA is not for the faint at heart. Those who want a nurturing, small environment that you find in a SLAC will not be happy there. This school is for go-getters who can advocate for themselves because there is no hand-holding or coddling at UCLA. One must figure things out for themselves most of the time.

PP here mentions the rich kids. Yes, they are there. However, UCLA most likely has the largest percentage of first gen students of any top 20 school. And it is super diverse - students are from all walks of life - much more than the 19 privates ahead of it in the stupid rankings.

And did I mention how gorgeous the campus is and how cool Westwood is?? It's the best of both worlds - cute college town in the middle of a world-class city. There's a reason they got 130K apps last year. Highly recommend it for serious students who also like to have a great social life.

Agree with all of this until you got to Westwood village, it’s a shadow of its former self. Hopefully businesses will comeback now that the Covid restrictions are over.

UCLA pp here. Yes, it was amazing when we first visited in 2019. When DC got there in 2020 it was very sad with a lot of storefronts closed - but it is definitely on it's way back and much more vibrant with all the students there now. The area northwest of the village where all the student apartments are is back to normal - hopping at all hours of the day and night!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, it’s a real problem. You aren’t going to find a T20 that isn’t largely populated by Tracy Flicks. Sorry.

Especially nowadays given what it takes to get into a t 20. Might have been different 25 years ago

25 years ago you could get the disorganized geniuses who walked into the SATs and got 1600 without studying and who kept up a 3.7 or so GPA by never doing the homework but acing the tests. Perfect and intense executive function wasn’t a skill set universally required for admissions back then. But the admissions have changed to essentially remove the quirky geniuses from the student population, because you are only getting into a T20 if you have the executive functioning skills of a mid-career project manager. Hence schools populated almost entirely by Tracy Flicks. Even the athletes are Tracy Flicks. It’s kind of bizarre.

This is a great way of describing the phenomenon.

It’s not just “disorganized geniuses” that don’t get into these schools. Even “normally functional geniuses” don’t get in. I’m thinking of the kid that is incredibly bright and intensely knowledgeable about things that interest him or her, but who aren’t driven to achieve perfection — for the sake of perfection— in areas that they don’t care about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, it’s a real problem. You aren’t going to find a T20 that isn’t largely populated by Tracy Flicks. Sorry.

Especially nowadays given what it takes to get into a t 20. Might have been different 25 years ago

25 years ago you could get the disorganized geniuses who walked into the SATs and got 1600 without studying and who kept up a 3.7 or so GPA by never doing the homework but acing the tests. Perfect and intense executive function wasn’t a skill set universally required for admissions back then. But the admissions have changed to essentially remove the quirky geniuses from the student population, because you are only getting into a T20 if you have the executive functioning skills of a mid-career project manager. Hence schools populated almost entirely by Tracy Flicks. Even the athletes are Tracy Flicks. It’s kind of bizarre.

Plenty of those kids could right to work now and do fine with a bit of training. These top universities are not for the faint of mind.

Well, they aren’t for the brilliant kids any more either.

Like the legions of privileged white dudes were the most brilliant minds of the day, right? Because that's what the class make up was. Those sure were the days of brilliant kids.

No, of course the legacy men weren’t brilliant.

You are correct. No brilliant person ever attended a top school prior to 1990. It was purely the dullard sons of alumni.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread makes me think l hope my kid chooses to go to school in Canada, where I’m from originally. Much easier to get into a great school, and pretty much everyone has a great time. Not a pressure cooker. (I hope it’s still like that!!)

Working hard at a academic pursuits is a great time for some of these students. Some of them like it. They are are finally in an environment where being a nerd is an asset instead of a liability.

nerd =/= grind

My kid, the OP, is a nerd.

Grinding away the day, night, weekend and holidays to get all As and kill your competition is something else entirely.

People are arguing about this because DC is full of grinders. Not so many eccentric geniuses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread makes me think l hope my kid chooses to go to school in Canada, where I’m from originally. Much easier to get into a great school, and pretty much everyone has a great time. Not a pressure cooker. (I hope it’s still like that!!)

Working hard at a academic pursuits is a great time for some of these students. Some of them like it. They are are finally in an environment where being a nerd is an asset instead of a liability.

This. I’m having a hard time with this thread. College is supposed to be for studying. OP seems to want the “top credentials” for their kid, with none of the effort.

OP I’m sure your kid can find an easy major and the stoner crowd, and enjoy some Gentleman’s Cs.

There is a difference between being in a place where people study for joy and an intense desire to learn and a place where people study because they just want elite As, and they mostly don’t care about the subject matter. The former is heaven for nerds, which is how OP describes her DC. The latter is a Tracy Flick hellscape.

I don’t think OPs child wants “easy.” What my guess that OPs child wants is a classic collegiate learning experience where the primary goal is educational, not achievement. It used to be that those were synonymous in the T20, but they aren’t any more.

OP, I would look at a smaller SLAC. Those tend to be the top academic environments where the students are also motivated by a joy of learning. There are less of them gunning for med school, law school, b-school, venture funding, etc. immediately after graduation and there will be kids willing to take academic risk for the sake of learning in those schools.

You mean T20s were places where the privileged could expect that all the need to do is get admitted, and then slack?

So sad for students finding out they actually have to work hard.

And you’re always free to slack - nobody is going to stop you. I learned this in law school where many “Tracy Flick” types realized that with a strict curve they were always going to get Bs, so they turned their focus elsewhere.

OP’s child is showing really poor character. Can’t bring themselves to study hard. Can’t bring themselves to accept being a B student and focus on their own goals. Can’t accept the reality and instead chooses to blame others and call them names (“grinds” and “Tracey Flicks.”)

Of course you are a lawyer. In any event, you have nicely demonstrated the problem. You are deeply insecure and feel seen by what OP describes (which is a real phenomenon; ask any tenured T20 professor about how many of their students now are driven by a desire for education rather than achievement). You are lashing out at OPs child for having poor character, when OPs child has in fact identified an issue that is widely discussed by academic leaders at T20 schools. Do you think your post makes you look like the calm and rational one? OPs child comes across as far more insightful than you, an adult who is so scared of what OPs child observed that he feels compelled to call a teenager names.

You will never understand the joy of learning a subject purely for the joy of learning. That’s okay, but that means you can’t understand the environment that OPs child wants.

Oh no, you are very wrong. I went to a SLAC and I understand that the “joy of learning” simply means “doing less work.” which is FINE. I have deliberately chosen career paths that allow me to work less. My issue is that instead of owning this OP/kid are mean-spiritedly blaming everything on the other kids being “grinds.” Grow up. If they can’t hack it, transfer.

I would love to talk to your former professors and tell them this was your takeaway from your college experience so I could see their faces. Would you please identify the SLAC you attended so our children can avoid it?

This is exactly the attitude that is so disappointing in “top” colleges these days. Education is purely a manufacturing process — so many ergs of effort + raw materials in, with grades come out the other end. What did you learn? Did you learn how to *think* beyond the stuff you memorized for the test? It doesn’t matter, I worked hard and got an A. They can’t even grasp the difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread makes me think l hope my kid chooses to go to school in Canada, where I’m from originally. Much easier to get into a great school, and pretty much everyone has a great time. Not a pressure cooker. (I hope it’s still like that!!)

Working hard at a academic pursuits is a great time for some of these students. Some of them like it. They are are finally in an environment where being a nerd is an asset instead of a liability.

This. I’m having a hard time with this thread. College is supposed to be for studying. OP seems to want the “top credentials” for their kid, with none of the effort.

OP I’m sure your kid can find an easy major and the stoner crowd, and enjoy some Gentleman’s Cs.

There is a difference between being in a place where people study for joy and an intense desire to learn and a place where people study because they just want elite As, and they mostly don’t care about the subject matter. The former is heaven for nerds, which is how OP describes her DC. The latter is a Tracy Flick hellscape.

I don’t think OPs child wants “easy.” What my guess that OPs child wants is a classic collegiate learning experience where the primary goal is educational, not achievement. It used to be that those were synonymous in the T20, but they aren’t any more.

OP, I would look at a smaller SLAC. Those tend to be the top academic environments where the students are also motivated by a joy of learning. There are less of them gunning for med school, law school, b-school, venture funding, etc. immediately after graduation and there will be kids willing to take academic risk for the sake of learning in those schools.

You mean T20s were places where the privileged could expect that all the need to do is get admitted, and then slack?

So sad for students finding out they actually have to work hard.

And you’re always free to slack - nobody is going to stop you. I learned this in law school where many “Tracy Flick” types realized that with a strict curve they were always going to get Bs, so they turned their focus elsewhere.

OP’s child is showing really poor character. Can’t bring themselves to study hard. Can’t bring themselves to accept being a B student and focus on their own goals. Can’t accept the reality and instead chooses to blame others and call them names (“grinds” and “Tracey Flicks.”)

Of course you are a lawyer. In any event, you have nicely demonstrated the problem. You are deeply insecure and feel seen by what OP describes (which is a real phenomenon; ask any tenured T20 professor about how many of their students now are driven by a desire for education rather than achievement). You are lashing out at OPs child for having poor character, when OPs child has in fact identified an issue that is widely discussed by academic leaders at T20 schools. Do you think your post makes you look like the calm and rational one? OPs child comes across as far more insightful than you, an adult who is so scared of what OPs child observed that he feels compelled to call a teenager names.

You will never understand the joy of learning a subject purely for the joy of learning. That’s okay, but that means you can’t understand the environment that OPs child wants.

Oh no, you are very wrong. I went to a SLAC and I understand that the “joy of learning” simply means “doing less work.” which is FINE. I have deliberately chosen career paths that allow me to work less. My issue is that instead of owning this OP/kid are mean-spiritedly blaming everything on the other kids being “grinds.” Grow up. If they can’t hack it, transfer.

I would love to talk to your former professors and tell them this was your takeaway from your college experience so I could see their faces. Would you please identify the SLAC you attended so our children can avoid it?

This is exactly the attitude that is so disappointing in “top” colleges these days. Education is purely a manufacturing process — so many ergs of effort + raw materials in, with grades come out the other end. What did you learn? Did you learn how to *think* beyond the stuff you memorized for the test? It doesn’t matter, I worked hard and got an A. They can’t even grasp the difference.

You are responding to the bitter lawyer who is essentially an unintentional object lesson for OP. I would not attempt reason.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a parent of a freshman a T15 school. Kid thought they were selecting a place commensurate with their [holds nose] top credentials that would nonetheless have a lot of fun kids who don't take themselves seriously and prioritize having a good time. Spoiler alert: this is not UChicago.

Anyway, kid is wrong. Not every student at kid's school is a Tracy Flick, of course, but there are so many of them that the vibe is affected. The seriousness and intensity permeates the dorms, the quad, the on campus coffee places ...

I promise I'm not a troll. Kid is grateful for this opportunity but really surprised at how wrong they were.

I'd rank the "lowest a-hole percentage" among T20 as follows:
Vandy
Rice

Northwestern

UCLA









most of the rest










Harvard









































Duke

UCLA? Seemed like a barbie and Ken hellscape of eating disorders and who had a car that was deemed worthy from what I could see. Like all the Tracy flick energy was devoted to social life instead of academics. Opposite of laid back in my view but whatever floats your boat I guess

What? Do you know anything about UCLA?? My DC is a junior and I can say from experience that these kids work hard and play hard. UCLA has it all - top academics, super driven and motivated students, and an amazing social life for all types of kids. My DC is having the time of his/her life, has a great circle of friends, and you just can't beat the LA lifestyle. DC's friends are all super-accomplished and have had amazing internships at top companies all over the country. The opportunities for outside school activities are endless - mountains, ocean, food scene, etc.

Now mind you- UCLA is not for the faint at heart. Those who want a nurturing, small environment that you find in a SLAC will not be happy there. This school is for go-getters who can advocate for themselves because there is no hand-holding or coddling at UCLA. One must figure things out for themselves most of the time.

PP here mentions the rich kids. Yes, they are there. However, UCLA most likely has the largest percentage of first gen students of any top 20 school. And it is super diverse - students are from all walks of life - much more than the 19 privates ahead of it in the stupid rankings.

And did I mention how gorgeous the campus is and how cool Westwood is?? It's the best of both worlds - cute college town in the middle of a world-class city. There's a reason they got 130K apps last year. Highly recommend it for serious students who also like to have a great social life.

You can’t seriously think that UCLA is even in the same league as Berkeley, which is where my DC attends.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread makes me think l hope my kid chooses to go to school in Canada, where I’m from originally. Much easier to get into a great school, and pretty much everyone has a great time. Not a pressure cooker. (I hope it’s still like that!!)

Working hard at a academic pursuits is a great time for some of these students. Some of them like it. They are are finally in an environment where being a nerd is an asset instead of a liability.

nerd =/= grind

My kid, the OP, is a nerd.

Grinding away the day, night, weekend and holidays to get all As and kill your competition is something else entirely.

People are arguing about this because DC is full of grinders. Not so many eccentric geniuses.

Maybe the t20s are for these " grinders" and there are other schools for "eccentric geniuses". The posts on here generally seem to say these t20s are looking for " grinders".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread makes me think l hope my kid chooses to go to school in Canada, where I’m from originally. Much easier to get into a great school, and pretty much everyone has a great time. Not a pressure cooker. (I hope it’s still like that!!)

Working hard at a academic pursuits is a great time for some of these students. Some of them like it. They are are finally in an environment where being a nerd is an asset instead of a liability.

nerd =/= grind

My kid, the OP, is a nerd.

Grinding away the day, night, weekend and holidays to get all As and kill your competition is something else entirely.

People are arguing about this because DC is full of grinders. Not so many eccentric geniuses.

Maybe the t20s are for these " grinders" and there are other schools for "eccentric geniuses". The posts on here generally seem to say these t20s are looking for " grinders".

This is not accurate. Top 20 universities seek hard working, intelligent students who will thrive most in the school environment.

In my view, "grinders" are engineering majors because it is necessary in order to successfully complete the major.