Should MCPS be sued too?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm going to give a serious answer to an unserious question - there are school districts that have failed so badly that they require state receivership. I don't know if Baltimore City PS is one of those systems, but MCPS certainly is not.

We're talking about a system that routinely produces National Merit Scholars, C-SPAN documentary winners, and Rogeneron winners.

Moreover, to build a case you need to show not just individual schools with issues, but an entire system. OP might not like the fact that kids get until the end of the quarter to submit assignments but it's not a secret corrupt rule - it's just the grading policy.

As for attendance, if OP's school is bad at taking attendance, that's a problem with OP's school, not the system. My kids' schools are fine.

I completely agree with this assessment. It may not look like it from your vantage point, OP, but MCPS is one of the best large school systems in the nation.
I certainly do not agree with everything they do, indeed I'm quite upset with a few of their directions, notably their discrimination against Asian students in magnet selection. But to be fair and objective, their overall instructional record is a very good one.

(Also, MCPS employs an army of highly-paid lawyers. Good luck going after them, as parents of special needs children have found out to their dismay... one of the things I don't like about MCPS!)

Oh, I know! Asian students only make up 60% of the magnet while making up 15% of the county population. It's so unfair!

It sounds like you would deny a child a magnet seat because of their skin color versus their qualifications?

Asians are more of a minority in Montgomery County and Maryland than Whites, Blacks, or Latino / Hispanics. Ever think that asians work hard to get into these programs because they know this? They're outnumbered in the workforce and won't get the job based on 'who you know' but only on sheer over-qualification? And you would deny a child that opportunity to learn?

Racist b.

If you work for MCPS, you need to be gone.

Then make it a IQ test.

Then make it an IQ test.

Perfect example - knowing which to use has nothing to do with IQ

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am an upper elementary teacher do the lottery impacts me in a different way than parents. My issue is that CES was developed as a place for kids who didn’t have a peer group at their home schools, but they also helped teachers by taking those outliers out of our classes. With the lottery system, it is not pulling those outliers. Instead, it is just pulling a few random higher students. We are still needing to meet the needs of any outliers who are not chosen AND those outliers still do not have a peer group. At this point, I don’t even understand the purpose of the program.

This is another example of why teachers are burning out and the needs of students are not met.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Baltimore City Public Schools is being sued for defrauding tax payers. https://www.baltimoresun.com/education/bs-md-crump-city-schools-suit-20220706-b3zaf3sn2vfcjdjzmvxqsfd5hm-story.html

Should MCPS also be sued? Attendance record keeping has been abysmal at my child’s school. Grades mean nothing and students received 50% for not doing assignments. The net result is that students are being denied a quality public education and students have gaps from the lower standards.

All the kids I know are doing great. Not sure what the problem is.

This kind of comment shows up on any thread that is critical to MCPS. What is your measure of "doing great?" Do you understand that in an environment of eroding standards and grade inflation, there will still be kids who are getting all As? Does this mean that they are receiving the education that they deserve? That public officials are using their stewardship over our children and our money in a way that produces the most benefit? It is naive and uninformed comments like this that enables poor leadership.

My kids are doing great too. It's not just straight A's but far above the 99% on standardized tests. COVID didn't impact them at all as far as I can tell, but they were engaged in DL while many of their friends played games all day.

This is true. We know many kids who are gifted and academic oriented have not shown any negative impact and they were right back on the trajectory when they went back in person closing the year very strong. Unfortunately the secretive and discriminatory admission to magnet programs are going to put them at disadvantage. Many are moving to Urbana and Ellicott City for FCPS and HCPS.

Admissions to magnet programs is currently done by lottery which by its nature isn't secretive or discriminatory. It's random.

So you say. MCPS never released their methods.

But, it does help protect them against future lawsuits, since they could pick favorites and no one would be the wiser, at least until an insider gets disgruntled and squeals. It's not like Maryland prosecutes those types of crimes, right?

Yes, they did. It was explained on their website. They said it was a lottery. If you aren't sure what that means, try looking it up.

But is it weighted or normalized in any way, and if so, how?

They said it was a lottery not a weighted lottery. A lottery is when selection is made by randomly drawing winners from a pool.

CES
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PGURwFaYuZpsVrxW0RbYYWlv49ZdrS960uNobJw3teA/preview
What are locally normed scores?
Gifted and talented experts recommend the use of local norms of assessment scores as an equitable approach to ensure equity and access in identification of students for program access. Additionally, the current draft of Gifted and Talented Definitions from the Maryland State Department of Education includes the use of local norms as part of the gifted and talented identification process. MCPS locally normed scores are designed to examine test takers in relation to one another within MCPS. As part of the CES identification process, scores obtained on the MAP R assessment will be locally normed. The socioeconomic status of elementary schools will be used to establish local norms for the MAP R. In establishing local norms, students in schools with similar FARMS rates were grouped together for comparison. (added 2/22/22)

They've never really explained how the locally normed scores are done.

MSMC
https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/schools/msmagnet/about/faq.aspx#q8
No test is required for admission to MSMC schools. What criteria will be used for selecting students who live outside the Consortium?

Montgomery County Public Schools considers a variety of factors when assigning students to MSMC schools. These factors include the number of available seats, rank order of choices, sibling preference, socioeconomic status, and gender.

You are deliberately comparing apples to bananas here in the hopes of whipping up anger.

The CES lottery is pretty simple. Admission to the lottery is based on test scores, which are locally normed. After that, it's a blind lottery.

Because the CES programs are regional, local norming doesn't have that much of an impact unless your child is at a school that is an outlier for the CES zone. So, a kid at Twinbrook might get into the lottery with a slightly lower MAP-R score than other kids in-bounds for Barnsley but that's the extent of it.

The MSMC programs are not criteria-based and are open first to all kids in-bounds for an MSMC school, and then to kids outside that zone based on seats available. They are also whole-school magnets. So....yes, they consider factors like FARMS and gender in order to keep the overall school balanced.

Yes, some people are paid to stir up angst about these things by sewing misinformation. The whole process is very simple and nothing to get worked up over.

+1000

Why not make a visible lottery process. MCPS has been non-transparent and has an agenda to stack the selection for the percentages that they wish to be represented. If everything is on the up and up, have the lottery selection be a visible process.

OMG. There is no process visible enough to pacify some people. What? You want them to draw numbers on live television like the Vietnam draft?

They have explained the process. Weighted scores to get into the lottery, and then a lottery for each CES program after that. It's blind luck. You may not like the process, but I trust you can understand it if you try

Yes, show the numbers being drawn to prove the randomness of the selection. Until there’s transparency to the process, parents are not trusting the process. They do YouTube videos and live stream events all the time. Why not the lottery?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm going to give a serious answer to an unserious question - there are school districts that have failed so badly that they require state receivership. I don't know if Baltimore City PS is one of those systems, but MCPS certainly is not.

We're talking about a system that routinely produces National Merit Scholars, C-SPAN documentary winners, and Rogeneron winners.

Moreover, to build a case you need to show not just individual schools with issues, but an entire system. OP might not like the fact that kids get until the end of the quarter to submit assignments but it's not a secret corrupt rule - it's just the grading policy.

As for attendance, if OP's school is bad at taking attendance, that's a problem with OP's school, not the system. My kids' schools are fine.

I completely agree with this assessment. It may not look like it from your vantage point, OP, but MCPS is one of the best large school systems in the nation.
I certainly do not agree with everything they do, indeed I'm quite upset with a few of their directions, notably their discrimination against Asian students in magnet selection. But to be fair and objective, their overall instructional record is a very good one.

(Also, MCPS employs an army of highly-paid lawyers. Good luck going after them, as parents of special needs children have found out to their dismay... one of the things I don't like about MCPS!)

Oh, I know! Asian students only make up 60% of the magnet while making up 15% of the county population. It's so unfair!

It sounds like you would deny a child a magnet seat because of their skin color versus their qualifications?

Asians are more of a minority in Montgomery County and Maryland than Whites, Blacks, or Latino / Hispanics. Ever think that asians work hard to get into these programs because they know this? They're outnumbered in the workforce and won't get the job based on 'who you know' but only on sheer over-qualification? And you would deny a child that opportunity to learn?

Racist b.

If you work for MCPS, you need to be gone.

Then make it a IQ test.

CogAT was a race-neutral, language-neutral, resource-neutral (e.g. money didn't provide an advantage), Nation-wide cognitive ability test.

MCPS dropped it in favor of the MAP (which favors kids with resources who get tutoring / instruction on the side and the reading portion favors native English speakers).

Why did they do that? Dunno, but if their goal was to give FARMS kids a chance, it backfired. Now FARMS kids are more screwed than ever imho.

Very true, my kids CogAT tutor only cost around $100/hour too.

Let me guess - your kid's scores stunk after taking CogAT multiple times, so you hired a tutor thinking it would help? Too funny.

Yes, and both had perfect scores after a few months of tutoring.

Really? That must be amazing! Please post the tutor's name or contact info. Unless you're lying.

Go to Google and search "Rockville Maryland COGAT tutor" and several pop right up. Or Gaithersburg, Silver Spring, wherever you want. Some of these tutors have been delivering great results for years, and years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Baltimore City Public Schools is being sued for defrauding tax payers. https://www.baltimoresun.com/education/bs-md-crump-city-schools-suit-20220706-b3zaf3sn2vfcjdjzmvxqsfd5hm-story.html

Should MCPS also be sued? Attendance record keeping has been abysmal at my child’s school. Grades mean nothing and students received 50% for not doing assignments. The net result is that students are being denied a quality public education and students have gaps from the lower standards.

All the kids I know are doing great. Not sure what the problem is.

This kind of comment shows up on any thread that is critical to MCPS. What is your measure of "doing great?" Do you understand that in an environment of eroding standards and grade inflation, there will still be kids who are getting all As? Does this mean that they are receiving the education that they deserve? That public officials are using their stewardship over our children and our money in a way that produces the most benefit? It is naive and uninformed comments like this that enables poor leadership.

My kids are doing great too. It's not just straight A's but far above the 99% on standardized tests. COVID didn't impact them at all as far as I can tell, but they were engaged in DL while many of their friends played games all day.

This is true. We know many kids who are gifted and academic oriented have not shown any negative impact and they were right back on the trajectory when they went back in person closing the year very strong. Unfortunately the secretive and discriminatory admission to magnet programs are going to put them at disadvantage. Many are moving to Urbana and Ellicott City for FCPS and HCPS.

Admissions to magnet programs is currently done by lottery which by its nature isn't secretive or discriminatory. It's random.

So you say. MCPS never released their methods.

But, it does help protect them against future lawsuits, since they could pick favorites and no one would be the wiser, at least until an insider gets disgruntled and squeals. It's not like Maryland prosecutes those types of crimes, right?

Yes, they did. It was explained on their website. They said it was a lottery. If you aren't sure what that means, try looking it up.

But is it weighted or normalized in any way, and if so, how?

They said it was a lottery not a weighted lottery. A lottery is when selection is made by randomly drawing winners from a pool.

CES
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PGURwFaYuZpsVrxW0RbYYWlv49ZdrS960uNobJw3teA/preview
What are locally normed scores?
Gifted and talented experts recommend the use of local norms of assessment scores as an equitable approach to ensure equity and access in identification of students for program access. Additionally, the current draft of Gifted and Talented Definitions from the Maryland State Department of Education includes the use of local norms as part of the gifted and talented identification process. MCPS locally normed scores are designed to examine test takers in relation to one another within MCPS. As part of the CES identification process, scores obtained on the MAP R assessment will be locally normed. The socioeconomic status of elementary schools will be used to establish local norms for the MAP R. In establishing local norms, students in schools with similar FARMS rates were grouped together for comparison. (added 2/22/22)

They've never really explained how the locally normed scores are done.

MSMC
https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/schools/msmagnet/about/faq.aspx#q8
No test is required for admission to MSMC schools. What criteria will be used for selecting students who live outside the Consortium?

Montgomery County Public Schools considers a variety of factors when assigning students to MSMC schools. These factors include the number of available seats, rank order of choices, sibling preference, socioeconomic status, and gender.

You are deliberately comparing apples to bananas here in the hopes of whipping up anger.

The CES lottery is pretty simple. Admission to the lottery is based on test scores, which are locally normed. After that, it's a blind lottery.

Because the CES programs are regional, local norming doesn't have that much of an impact unless your child is at a school that is an outlier for the CES zone. So, a kid at Twinbrook might get into the lottery with a slightly lower MAP-R score than other kids in-bounds for Barnsley but that's the extent of it.

The MSMC programs are not criteria-based and are open first to all kids in-bounds for an MSMC school, and then to kids outside that zone based on seats available. They are also whole-school magnets. So....yes, they consider factors like FARMS and gender in order to keep the overall school balanced.

Yes, some people are paid to stir up angst about these things by sewing misinformation. The whole process is very simple and nothing to get worked up over.

+1000

Why not make a visible lottery process. MCPS has been non-transparent and has an agenda to stack the selection for the percentages that they wish to be represented. If everything is on the up and up, have the lottery selection be a visible process.

OMG. There is no process visible enough to pacify some people. What? You want them to draw numbers on live television like the Vietnam draft?

They have explained the process. Weighted scores to get into the lottery, and then a lottery for each CES program after that. It's blind luck. You may not like the process, but I trust you can understand it if you try

Yes, they're intentionally playing dumb to help sew confusion and angst. I don't love the process either but I understand it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am an upper elementary teacher do the lottery impacts me in a different way than parents. My issue is that CES was developed as a place for kids who didn’t have a peer group at their home schools, but they also helped teachers by taking those outliers out of our classes. With the lottery system, it is not pulling those outliers. Instead, it is just pulling a few random higher students. We are still needing to meet the needs of any outliers who are not chosen AND those outliers still do not have a peer group. At this point, I don’t even understand the purpose of the program.

This is another example of why teachers are burning out and the needs of students are not met.

+1000 my DC is one of those outliers and really needs to be in a program where she can be challenged. such a program does not exist in her current ES and she's only one of less than a handful of students like that in her school. MCPS needs to expand CES and admit only those students without a peer group at their schools, as well as expanding accelerated programs at home schools. the lack of rigor of the ES curriculum is frustrating and explains the low test scores of our district, not to mention American students in general. Schools should not be teaching at a pace that's appropriate only for the most remedial students of the class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am an upper elementary teacher do the lottery impacts me in a different way than parents. My issue is that CES was developed as a place for kids who didn’t have a peer group at their home schools, but they also helped teachers by taking those outliers out of our classes. With the lottery system, it is not pulling those outliers. Instead, it is just pulling a few random higher students. We are still needing to meet the needs of any outliers who are not chosen AND those outliers still do not have a peer group. At this point, I don’t even understand the purpose of the program.

This is another example of why teachers are burning out and the needs of students are not met.

+1000 my DC is one of those outliers and really needs to be in a program where she can be challenged. such a program does not exist in her current ES and she's only one of less than a handful of students like that in her school. MCPS needs to expand CES and admit only those students without a peer group at their schools, as well as expanding accelerated programs at home schools. the lack of rigor of the ES curriculum is frustrating and explains the low test scores of our district, not to mention American students in general. Schools should not be teaching at a pace that's appropriate only for the most remedial students of the class.

But the idea that teachers stick in the "slow lane" because of "remedial students" has never been true. Once upon a time America was full of one room school houses with teachers handling all grades and ages at once. And this is that magical time in the past when the USA was the undisputed leader in everything everywhere in the world.

Will you ever recognize that your "dumbed down" "remedial students" "slowed pace" argument just doesn't hold water????

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am an upper elementary teacher do the lottery impacts me in a different way than parents. My issue is that CES was developed as a place for kids who didn’t have a peer group at their home schools, but they also helped teachers by taking those outliers out of our classes. With the lottery system, it is not pulling those outliers. Instead, it is just pulling a few random higher students. We are still needing to meet the needs of any outliers who are not chosen AND those outliers still do not have a peer group. At this point, I don’t even understand the purpose of the program.

This is another example of why teachers are burning out and the needs of students are not met.

+1000 my DC is one of those outliers and really needs to be in a program where she can be challenged. such a program does not exist in her current ES and she's only one of less than a handful of students like that in her school. MCPS needs to expand CES and admit only those students without a peer group at their schools, as well as expanding accelerated programs at home schools. the lack of rigor of the ES curriculum is frustrating and explains the low test scores of our district, not to mention American students in general. Schools should not be teaching at a pace that's appropriate only for the most remedial students of the class.

But the idea that teachers stick in the "slow lane" because of "remedial students" has never been true. Once upon a time America was full of one room school houses with teachers handling all grades and ages at once. And this is that magical time in the past when the USA was the undisputed leader in everything everywhere in the world.

Will you ever recognize that your "dumbed down" "remedial students" "slowed pace" argument just doesn't hold water????

American education is a laughingstock. It's common knowledge how dismally our country ranks internationally, and how unprepared American students are for college. And I can see from the remedial-level material my child brings home from school how slow the learning pace is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am an upper elementary teacher do the lottery impacts me in a different way than parents. My issue is that CES was developed as a place for kids who didn’t have a peer group at their home schools, but they also helped teachers by taking those outliers out of our classes. With the lottery system, it is not pulling those outliers. Instead, it is just pulling a few random higher students. We are still needing to meet the needs of any outliers who are not chosen AND those outliers still do not have a peer group. At this point, I don’t even understand the purpose of the program.

This is another example of why teachers are burning out and the needs of students are not met.

+1000 my DC is one of those outliers and really needs to be in a program where she can be challenged. such a program does not exist in her current ES and she's only one of less than a handful of students like that in her school. MCPS needs to expand CES and admit only those students without a peer group at their schools, as well as expanding accelerated programs at home schools. the lack of rigor of the ES curriculum is frustrating and explains the low test scores of our district, not to mention American students in general. Schools should not be teaching at a pace that's appropriate only for the most remedial students of the class.

But the idea that teachers stick in the "slow lane" because of "remedial students" has never been true. Once upon a time America was full of one room school houses with teachers handling all grades and ages at once. And this is that magical time in the past when the USA was the undisputed leader in everything everywhere in the world.

Will you ever recognize that your "dumbed down" "remedial students" "slowed pace" argument just doesn't hold water????

Both Eureka and Benchmark are taught as full class lessons. Teachers have been told not to use small group instruction. So the teacher does need to teach to the majority…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am an upper elementary teacher do the lottery impacts me in a different way than parents. My issue is that CES was developed as a place for kids who didn’t have a peer group at their home schools, but they also helped teachers by taking those outliers out of our classes. With the lottery system, it is not pulling those outliers. Instead, it is just pulling a few random higher students. We are still needing to meet the needs of any outliers who are not chosen AND those outliers still do not have a peer group. At this point, I don’t even understand the purpose of the program.

This is another example of why teachers are burning out and the needs of students are not met.

+1000 my DC is one of those outliers and really needs to be in a program where she can be challenged. such a program does not exist in her current ES and she's only one of less than a handful of students like that in her school. MCPS needs to expand CES and admit only those students without a peer group at their schools, as well as expanding accelerated programs at home schools. the lack of rigor of the ES curriculum is frustrating and explains the low test scores of our district, not to mention American students in general. Schools should not be teaching at a pace that's appropriate only for the most remedial students of the class.

But the idea that teachers stick in the "slow lane" because of "remedial students" has never been true. Once upon a time America was full of one room school houses with teachers handling all grades and ages at once. And this is that magical time in the past when the USA was the undisputed leader in everything everywhere in the world.

Will you ever recognize that your "dumbed down" "remedial students" "slowed pace" argument just doesn't hold water????

Both Eureka and Benchmark are taught as full class lessons. Teachers have been told not to use small group instruction. So the teacher does need to teach to the majority…

at our ES kids are grouped into grade level or compacted

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am an upper elementary teacher do the lottery impacts me in a different way than parents. My issue is that CES was developed as a place for kids who didn’t have a peer group at their home schools, but they also helped teachers by taking those outliers out of our classes. With the lottery system, it is not pulling those outliers. Instead, it is just pulling a few random higher students. We are still needing to meet the needs of any outliers who are not chosen AND those outliers still do not have a peer group. At this point, I don’t even understand the purpose of the program.

This is another example of why teachers are burning out and the needs of students are not met.

+1000 my DC is one of those outliers and really needs to be in a program where she can be challenged. such a program does not exist in her current ES and she's only one of less than a handful of students like that in her school. MCPS needs to expand CES and admit only those students without a peer group at their schools, as well as expanding accelerated programs at home schools. the lack of rigor of the ES curriculum is frustrating and explains the low test scores of our district, not to mention American students in general. Schools should not be teaching at a pace that's appropriate only for the most remedial students of the class.

But the idea that teachers stick in the "slow lane" because of "remedial students" has never been true. Once upon a time America was full of one room school houses with teachers handling all grades and ages at once. And this is that magical time in the past when the USA was the undisputed leader in everything everywhere in the world.

Will you ever recognize that your "dumbed down" "remedial students" "slowed pace" argument just doesn't hold water????

Both Eureka and Benchmark are taught as full class lessons. Teachers have been told not to use small group instruction. So the teacher does need to teach to the majority…

at our ES kids are grouped into grade level or compacted

Shh! What happens at Ws stays at Ws.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Baltimore City Public Schools is being sued for defrauding tax payers. https://www.baltimoresun.com/education/bs-md-crump-city-schools-suit-20220706-b3zaf3sn2vfcjdjzmvxqsfd5hm-story.html

Should MCPS also be sued? Attendance record keeping has been abysmal at my child’s school. Grades mean nothing and students received 50% for not doing assignments. The net result is that students are being denied a quality public education and students have gaps from the lower standards.

All the kids I know are doing great. Not sure what the problem is.

This kind of comment shows up on any thread that is critical to MCPS. What is your measure of "doing great?" Do you understand that in an environment of eroding standards and grade inflation, there will still be kids who are getting all As? Does this mean that they are receiving the education that they deserve? That public officials are using their stewardship over our children and our money in a way that produces the most benefit? It is naive and uninformed comments like this that enables poor leadership.

My kids are doing great too. It's not just straight A's but far above the 99% on standardized tests. COVID didn't impact them at all as far as I can tell, but they were engaged in DL while many of their friends played games all day.

This is true. We know many kids who are gifted and academic oriented have not shown any negative impact and they were right back on the trajectory when they went back in person closing the year very strong. Unfortunately the secretive and discriminatory admission to magnet programs are going to put them at disadvantage. Many are moving to Urbana and Ellicott City for FCPS and HCPS.

Admissions to magnet programs is currently done by lottery which by its nature isn't secretive or discriminatory. It's random.

So you say. MCPS never released their methods.

But, it does help protect them against future lawsuits, since they could pick favorites and no one would be the wiser, at least until an insider gets disgruntled and squeals. It's not like Maryland prosecutes those types of crimes, right?

Yes, they did. It was explained on their website. They said it was a lottery. If you aren't sure what that means, try looking it up.

But is it weighted or normalized in any way, and if so, how?

They said it was a lottery not a weighted lottery. A lottery is when selection is made by randomly drawing winners from a pool.

CES
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PGURwFaYuZpsVrxW0RbYYWlv49ZdrS960uNobJw3teA/preview
What are locally normed scores?
Gifted and talented experts recommend the use of local norms of assessment scores as an equitable approach to ensure equity and access in identification of students for program access. Additionally, the current draft of Gifted and Talented Definitions from the Maryland State Department of Education includes the use of local norms as part of the gifted and talented identification process. MCPS locally normed scores are designed to examine test takers in relation to one another within MCPS. As part of the CES identification process, scores obtained on the MAP R assessment will be locally normed. The socioeconomic status of elementary schools will be used to establish local norms for the MAP R. In establishing local norms, students in schools with similar FARMS rates were grouped together for comparison. (added 2/22/22)

They've never really explained how the locally normed scores are done.

MSMC
https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/schools/msmagnet/about/faq.aspx#q8
No test is required for admission to MSMC schools. What criteria will be used for selecting students who live outside the Consortium?

Montgomery County Public Schools considers a variety of factors when assigning students to MSMC schools. These factors include the number of available seats, rank order of choices, sibling preference, socioeconomic status, and gender.

You are deliberately comparing apples to bananas here in the hopes of whipping up anger.

The CES lottery is pretty simple. Admission to the lottery is based on test scores, which are locally normed. After that, it's a blind lottery.

Because the CES programs are regional, local norming doesn't have that much of an impact unless your child is at a school that is an outlier for the CES zone. So, a kid at Twinbrook might get into the lottery with a slightly lower MAP-R score than other kids in-bounds for Barnsley but that's the extent of it.

The MSMC programs are not criteria-based and are open first to all kids in-bounds for an MSMC school, and then to kids outside that zone based on seats available. They are also whole-school magnets. So....yes, they consider factors like FARMS and gender in order to keep the overall school balanced.

Yes, some people are paid to stir up angst about these things by sewing misinformation. The whole process is very simple and nothing to get worked up over.

+1000

Why not make a visible lottery process. MCPS has been non-transparent and has an agenda to stack the selection for the percentages that they wish to be represented. If everything is on the up and up, have the lottery selection be a visible process.

OMG. There is no process visible enough to pacify some people. What? You want them to draw numbers on live television like the Vietnam draft?

They have explained the process. Weighted scores to get into the lottery, and then a lottery for each CES program after that. It's blind luck. You may not like the process, but I trust you can understand it if you try

Yes, they're intentionally playing dumb to help sew confusion and angst. I don't love the process either but I understand it.

I don’t trust that a lottery that no one witnesses is a truly random process. It wouldn’t be the first time MCPS skews the selection process for their own personal agendas including to allow children of county high ranking staff to gain seats when they can be served at their home school.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I am an upper elementary teacher do the lottery impacts me in a different way than parents. My issue is that CES was developed as a place for kids who didn’t have a peer group at their home schools, but they also helped teachers by taking those outliers out of our classes. With the lottery system, it is not pulling those outliers. Instead, it is just pulling a few random higher students. We are still needing to meet the needs of any outliers who are not chosen AND those outliers still do not have a peer group. At this point, I don’t even understand the purpose of the program.

This is another example of why teachers are burning out and the needs of students are not met.

+1000 my DC is one of those outliers and really needs to be in a program where she can be challenged. such a program does not exist in her current ES and she's only one of less than a handful of students like that in her school. MCPS needs to expand CES and admit only those students without a peer group at their schools, as well as expanding accelerated programs at home schools. the lack of rigor of the ES curriculum is frustrating and explains the low test scores of our district, not to mention American students in general. Schools should not be teaching at a pace that's appropriate only for the most remedial students of the class.

But the idea that teachers stick in the "slow lane" because of "remedial students" has never been true. Once upon a time America was full of one room school houses with teachers handling all grades and ages at once. And this is that magical time in the past when the USA was the undisputed leader in everything everywhere in the world.

Will you ever recognize that your "dumbed down" "remedial students" "slowed pace" argument just doesn't hold water????

American education is a laughingstock. It's common knowledge how dismally our country ranks internationally, and how unprepared American students are for college. And I can see from the remedial-level material my child brings home from school how slow the learning pace is.

Your child should have plenty of free time then to spend in the public library doing independent research.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I'm going to give a serious answer to an unserious question - there are school districts that have failed so badly that they require state receivership. I don't know if Baltimore City PS is one of those systems, but MCPS certainly is not.

We're talking about a system that routinely produces National Merit Scholars, C-SPAN documentary winners, and Rogeneron winners.

Moreover, to build a case you need to show not just individual schools with issues, but an entire system. OP might not like the fact that kids get until the end of the quarter to submit assignments but it's not a secret corrupt rule - it's just the grading policy.

As for attendance, if OP's school is bad at taking attendance, that's a problem with OP's school, not the system. My kids' schools are fine.

I completely agree with this assessment. It may not look like it from your vantage point, OP, but MCPS is one of the best large school systems in the nation.
I certainly do not agree with everything they do, indeed I'm quite upset with a few of their directions, notably their discrimination against Asian students in magnet selection. But to be fair and objective, their overall instructional record is a very good one.

(Also, MCPS employs an army of highly-paid lawyers. Good luck going after them, as parents of special needs children have found out to their dismay... one of the things I don't like about MCPS!)

Oh, I know! Asian students only make up 60% of the magnet while making up 15% of the county population. It's so unfair!

It sounds like you would deny a child a magnet seat because of their skin color versus their qualifications?

Asians are more of a minority in Montgomery County and Maryland than Whites, Blacks, or Latino / Hispanics. Ever think that asians work hard to get into these programs because they know this? They're outnumbered in the workforce and won't get the job based on 'who you know' but only on sheer over-qualification? And you would deny a child that opportunity to learn?

Racist b.

If you work for MCPS, you need to be gone.

Then make it a IQ test.

CogAT was a race-neutral, language-neutral, resource-neutral (e.g. money didn't provide an advantage), Nation-wide cognitive ability test.

MCPS dropped it in favor of the MAP (which favors kids with resources who get tutoring / instruction on the side and the reading portion favors native English speakers).

Why did they do that? Dunno, but if their goal was to give FARMS kids a chance, it backfired. Now FARMS kids are more screwed than ever imho.

Very true, my kids CogAT tutor only cost around $100/hour too.

Let me guess - your kid's scores stunk after taking CogAT multiple times, so you hired a tutor thinking it would help? Too funny.

Yes, and both had perfect scores after a few months of tutoring.

Really? That must be amazing! Please post the tutor's name or contact info. Unless you're lying.

Go to Google and search "Rockville Maryland COGAT tutor" and several pop right up. Or Gaithersburg, Silver Spring, wherever you want. Some of these tutors have been delivering great results for years, and years.

You got caught lying. Got it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am an upper elementary teacher do the lottery impacts me in a different way than parents. My issue is that CES was developed as a place for kids who didn’t have a peer group at their home schools, but they also helped teachers by taking those outliers out of our classes. With the lottery system, it is not pulling those outliers. Instead, it is just pulling a few random higher students. We are still needing to meet the needs of any outliers who are not chosen AND those outliers still do not have a peer group. At this point, I don’t even understand the purpose of the program.

This is another example of why teachers are burning out and the needs of students are not met.

+1000 my DC is one of those outliers and really needs to be in a program where she can be challenged. such a program does not exist in her current ES and she's only one of less than a handful of students like that in her school. MCPS needs to expand CES and admit only those students without a peer group at their schools, as well as expanding accelerated programs at home schools. the lack of rigor of the ES curriculum is frustrating and explains the low test scores of our district, not to mention American students in general. Schools should not be teaching at a pace that's appropriate only for the most remedial students of the class.

But the idea that teachers stick in the "slow lane" because of "remedial students" has never been true. Once upon a time America was full of one room school houses with teachers handling all grades and ages at once. And this is that magical time in the past when the USA was the undisputed leader in everything everywhere in the world.

Will you ever recognize that your "dumbed down" "remedial students" "slowed pace" argument just doesn't hold water????

American education is a laughingstock. It's common knowledge how dismally our country ranks internationally, and how unprepared American students are for college. And I can see from the remedial-level material my child brings home from school how slow the learning pace is.

Your child should have plenty of free time then to spend in the public library doing independent research.

DP. Yes. We all know that kids teach themselves in the classroom and conducts their own in-depth research without a teacher guiding them. That would be silly.