Parents from other countries: how is "sleep training" handled overseas?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm one of the Latin American moms. Since you're waffling about doing sleep training (CIO style if I read right), it may help to read pshychologist Erik Erikson. His theory of psychosocial stages is widely accepted. Its first stage (birth to 18 months) is about trust vs. mistrust, which roughly means that a child needs to develop trust in order to feel secure in the world. Therefore it's crucial during this period to have caregivers consistently respond to their child's needs for food, comfort, and affection. Dependability is key at this stage, as they enter the second period of autonomy vs. shame & doubt (2-3 years) , in which the toddler starts exercising more independence and testing his limits in the world.
I guess we sometimes forget how dependent babies are, and we grow expectations that are way too high for them. I find strange that so many posters here give a negative connotation to the "baby cry, parents show up" routine. Well that's exactly how it's supposed to be, and this is what gives the baby a sense of security and predictability. On the other hand, several months of doing this every night all night long takes a toll on most parents, so in the end you have to decide what's most important to you and how you can best preserve your ability to care for and nurture your baby.

Sigh. Why did this have to turn into a debate about whether sleep training is harming babies? It has been such an interesting, mostly civil discussion.

Many families sleep train (ie. CIO/Ferber). And many don't. And most kids in both groups are just fine. Making sweeping generalizations like you do here ignores the fact that different children can be very different in their sleep habits and abilities. Some need to be taught to get themselves back to sleep after a sleep cycle, and some can learn it on their own. If you don't teach the group that really really needs to be taught (however you do that teaching), those kids suffer from chronic fatigue, and are at risk for sleep problems down the road.

pp here. unsure where you read in my post that sleep training harms babies. And how exactly was my post not civil? It was OP who mentioned previously how she's been looking for research to base her conclusion on whether to sleep train or not. Perhaps you're defensive about your choices regarding sleep training. Just face them with its benefits and fallbacks. You don't have to rationalize or justify yourself to anyone.

Not the original person who responded to you, but I find responses like yours a bit disingenuous. The whole...what, I wasn't judging you...you're just defensive/sensitive.

You basically wrote a post that states that when you do not consistently respond to a baby every time he/she cries from birth to 18 months, you are giving your child security and trust issues. You present this as a widely accepted truth. This is a pretty high bar. My sister had a 2 year old toddler and twins and she lived in a place where she had very few friends and family. Guess what. Her twins cried a lot. She didn't have a choice. The twins are now tweens and they are great kids who still love their mother.

I guess my point is it's not as black and white as you present. Most people do the best they can and love their kids. And most kids turn out great. I agree with the PP. You are making sweeping generalizations.

[Anonymous]

OP here. A few observations on some of the latest comments:

re: some people who coslept having close/good relationships with their parents and others not ... I think a close relationship is based on personality types and how people interact with each other over the full course of time. Sleep takes up just one chunk of time. I would guess that cosleeping might make a good relationship even closer, but I don't think it's necessary for a good relationship, and I don't think it can create a good relationship (any more than a married couple can have a good relationship simply because they share a bed).

re: the person with the Dutch BIL thinking that the American norm of child-raising in general is spoiling kids ... I wonder how different our other (non-sleep-related) childraising strategies are from other cultures'. I think I'll start another thread on this larger topic, because now I'm curious about that too. Having lived in a number of countries, I've noticed some big differences in how adults and children interact, and how children behave (at least in public!), but I'd be curious how others see it.

re: sleeping on the back contributing to worse sleep and possibly reflux too. That is an interesting observation. Our childcare provider said she's never even heard of SIDS until she came to the US, and everyone in her country still puts babies to sleep on their tummies, and in her experience they sleep better that way. Thinking about it, I, for one, can't sleep well on my back, and won't fall asleep that way unless I'm completely exhausted!! I know DC has many times seemed to like to sleep on her side (from an early age), but it's awkward to sleep like that w/o a pillow when they're a bit bigger, and the pediatrician warned against pillows too. I think I'll look for or make a small pillow, or try putting her on her tummy when she's really drowsy (so she won't just try to crawl!).

And yes, could the person who said that it's not that difficult to get children to sleep well if you start early and use some simple tools/techniques, pls tell us what those are? maybe those of us with older babies can still gradually adapt some of these, if it's not too late!!

Lastly, reading through the responses, I also wonder how much of the debate on these boards about sleep is due to unrealistic expectations. Maybe all it boils down to is that babies' needs vary from individual to individual (different personalities need different levels of personal contact, for example) and they have different levels of persistence, yet we're expecting them all to fit the same mold and go down to sleep easily and sleep through the night by age X. And due to cultural reasons of not having as much family support and having greater work demands on mothers, we're simply not well equipped to cater to the higher-need babies. AND maybe the fact that they're put to sleep on their backs is putting more babies in the higher-need category, due to physical discomfort. I guess the debate around sleep training then is how BIG is the gap between our expectations and the baby's reality, and how CAPABLE is the baby (and at what age) of adapting their needs to the expectations (ie. is the gap bridgeable with just a little fussing, or does it require traumatized crying for hours and vomiting, for example). Personally, I would guess that on the latter end of the spectrum, the sleeping "success" comes at a considerable psychic cost.

[Anonymous]

there's nothing "wrong" with it. it's a cultural behavior and should not be judged.
here parents don't mind to have their children out of the house by age 18 and they also don't expect to be taken care of when they reach older age. the community doesn't play a strong role supporting the expectant mother and people often feel awkward to offer help to the expectant parents. they don't want to be called nosy. parents and children often live far away so they're not that involved in the process of helping the expectant mother and new mom. thus the need to take "birth classes", "breast feeding classes" and the like.
in other cultures where babies are not allowed to cry too long and are carried closer, usually they grow up more close to the parents, what here would be called " being more dependent". they're not supposed to leave the parents until marriage and they're expected to care for the elderlies. this is not seeing like a task, chore or obligation. it's just the normal course of family life.
the expectant mom and new mom have a strong tie to the community and advice/help from neighbors, relatives and friends are very welcome. there's no fear to be nosy. "outsiders" trying to help are appreciated.
as i said before, there's nothing right or wrong with either. they're cultural differences and they should be respected. and i feel for the parents trying to adopt one or the other and being judge for someone who feels entitled to judge a cultural aspect of a family.

my culture is in transition so the new moms are suffering a lot with the struggles of being expected to work out of the house and care for the kids all night at the same time. the community still plays a huge role in this process and i'm glad they can count on them. i just hope they don't gravitate towards judging this moms who have to make such a hard choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm one of the Latin American moms. Since you're waffling about doing sleep training (CIO style if I read right), it may help to read pshychologist Erik Erikson. His theory of psychosocial stages is widely accepted. Its first stage (birth to 18 months) is about trust vs. mistrust, which roughly means that a child needs to develop trust in order to feel secure in the world. Therefore it's crucial during this period to have caregivers consistently respond to their child's needs for food, comfort, and affection. Dependability is key at this stage, as they enter the second period of autonomy vs. shame & doubt (2-3 years) , in which the toddler starts exercising more independence and testing his limits in the world.
I guess we sometimes forget how dependent babies are, and we grow expectations that are way too high for them. I find strange that so many posters here give a negative connotation to the "baby cry, parents show up" routine. Well that's exactly how it's supposed to be, and this is what gives the baby a sense of security and predictability. On the other hand, several months of doing this every night all night long takes a toll on most parents, so in the end you have to decide what's most important to you and how you can best preserve your ability to care for and nurture your baby.

Sigh. Why did this have to turn into a debate about whether sleep training is harming babies? It has been such an interesting, mostly civil discussion.

Many families sleep train (ie. CIO/Ferber). And many don't. And most kids in both groups are just fine. Making sweeping generalizations like you do here ignores the fact that different children can be very different in their sleep habits and abilities. Some need to be taught to get themselves back to sleep after a sleep cycle, and some can learn it on their own. If you don't teach the group that really really needs to be taught (however you do that teaching), those kids suffer from chronic fatigue, and are at risk for sleep problems down the road.

pp here. unsure where you read in my post that sleep training harms babies. And how exactly was my post not civil? It was OP who mentioned previously how she's been looking for research to base her conclusion on whether to sleep train or not. Perhaps you're defensive about your choices regarding sleep training. Just face them with its benefits and fallbacks. You don't have to rationalize or justify yourself to anyone.

I'm the pp you were addressing. I've bolded the parts of your post that bothered me. In a nutshell--you suggest that sleep training fosters mistrust on the part of the baby and stunts its emotional development, and that this is widely accepted. You also suggest that sleep training pushes babies to do something they are not capable of doing.

Trust me--I am not defensive. I am SO thankful we sleep trained and it worked. I also understand that many other families do not need to sleep train, because their kids are not like mine. My concern is for families who may be coping with what we were coping with several months ago, and who may read comments like yours and believe they are harming their baby when they sleep train. When we were considering sleep training, I read comments like this and they really unnerved me and made me worry I was hurting my son. I don't want others to go through that, it's hard enough subsisting on 1-hour blocks of sleep and listening to your child cry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: here parents don't mind to have their children out of the house by age 18 and they also don't expect to be taken care of when they reach older age....
in other cultures where babies are not allowed to cry too long and are carried closer, usually they grow up more close to the parents, what here would be called " being more dependent". they're not supposed to leave the parents until marriage and they're expected to care for the elderlies. this is not seeing like a task, chore or obligation. it's just the normal course of family life.

I agree with this. Not saying it's good or bad, but I think CIO is in line with American culture. I say that as a daughter of first-generation east Asian immigrants who did sleep train. My family thought I was nuts at first, but they are all so impressed with how well DS sleeps now.

Most of the moms I know who didn't sleep train are stay-at-home moms who seem really insecure about being a SAHM - really into being judgemental about CIO, sleep training, cloth training, you know the type. I know plenty of other SAHMs who are very comfortable in their skin, and some of my closest friends are SAHM, so I'm not starting a SAHM/WOHM debate. In any case, I feel like they think this makes them a better mom - like 'Hey, I'm sacrificing SO much for my baby - I get NO sleep!'. And that can have negative consequences in the future - I think they might expect a bit more in return from their kids because they sacrificed so much when, in American culture, they will probably get the same in return as any other parent. It doesn't fit with the larger, independence-focused American culture.

[Anonymous]

19:37 poster here - did not mean to imply that all people who don't do CIO are like this, just the judgy ones.

[Anonymous]

bump

[Anonymous]

I wish my parents had sleep trained me. I'm a chronic insomniac and STILL at 35 cannot get to sleep without some kind of soothing: either reading a book, listening to the radio or having my husband talk to me. Teaching kids to put themselves to sleep is important for their own well-being. Bedtime is a miserable time for me - no amount of adult therapy has been able to cure me.

[Anonymous]

PP don't blame it on your parents! there's nothing wrong with the need to have some soothing to sleep. how bad/damaging can read be? or listen to music?

[Anonymous]

The problem I have is the sugar-coating of CIO. Letting your infant cry and purposefully ignoring it--to the point where you feel the pain not only psychologically but your breasts begin to leak milk--is probably harmful if not in the long term, probably in the short term.

However, CIO harm might be the lesser of other harms--e.g., falling asleep at the wheel because you're not getting enough sleep.

So, parents who say CIO didn't harm my child--the fact of the matter is that is not something we can say definitively--but you can say it was either that or us getting into a fatal car accident, so it was justified.

[Anonymous]

I find it odd that people think that without some kind of sleep training, someone will not turn into a good sleeper. As someone pointed out, there are not entire nations of bad sleepers, in cultures where co-sleeping is the norm.

I think children naturally sleep longer when they're developmentally ready, unless there are underlying issues that sleep training wouldn't fix anyway. Sleep training just moves up the process, so it's done on the parents' timetable rather than the child's, and they have to adapt. . Probably similar to how separation anxiety is dealt with in our culture. We let our children cry for a while so they'll get used to being with a babysitter, so we can go out (in countries where lots of relatives have been around to help from the get-go, strangers probably aren't needed). And there are gentler and not so gentle ways of doing each of these.

[Anonymous]

Just want to throw an idea out there: just because people hadn't heard of SIDS before they came to the US doesn't mean that it didn't happen at the same or higher rates than here. The reason we all know about it here is the result of an obviously successful campaign to make us all aware of it. I'm surprised how many PPs seem to connect sleep problems and other issues with back sleeping. I've noticed that some parents who don't sleep train come up with every excuse in the book about why the baby/child isn't sleeping at a given time (teething, etc.). Of course many things can interfere with sleep but the biggest excuse makers tend to be the inconsistent parents or those who create and then foster bad sleep habits.

As for CIO, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that we're back on that again. The posts about infants screaming and crying and all of this--frankly, this tends the parents who don't do the right things from the start and then go nuclear at 6, 7, 8, 9 months and beyond when they can't take it anymore. If you actually read Weissbluth or Ferber you'd see that this is not what CIO is about. Some people who created problems and then have to correct them have this kind of crying. Technically I did CIO I guess--but there was almost no crying. Because I started creating good habits early.

One reason I really wanted to help my baby develop sleep skills is that my parents didn't with me. I was picked up every time I cried, I coslept a lot for a long time and there were times when I was a teenager and had to go to my parents bed! That's fine in a place where families all live together forever but sorry, the US is not like that. I had a really hard time sleeping in college and then on my own. Even now, in my 30s and married, I still can't fall asleep alone. There are some things we can do for our children but we can't sleep for them--they have to learn how to do this so they are healthy for the rest of their lives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just want to throw an idea out there: just because people hadn't heard of SIDS before they came to the US doesn't mean that it didn't happen at the same or higher rates than here. The reason we all know about it here is the result of an obviously successful campaign to make us all aware of it. I'm surprised how many PPs seem to connect sleep problems and other issues with back sleeping. I've noticed that some parents who don't sleep train come up with every excuse in the book about why the baby/child isn't sleeping at a given time (teething, etc.). Of course many things can interfere with sleep but the biggest excuse makers tend to be the inconsistent parents or those who create and then foster bad sleep habits.

As for CIO, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that we're back on that again. The posts about infants screaming and crying and all of this--frankly, this tends the parents who don't do the right things from the start and then go nuclear at 6, 7, 8, 9 months and beyond when they can't take it anymore. If you actually read Weissbluth or Ferber you'd see that this is not what CIO is about. Some people who created problems and then have to correct them have this kind of crying. Technically I did CIO I guess--but there was almost no crying. Because I started creating good habits early.

One reason I really wanted to help my baby develop sleep skills is that my parents didn't with me. I was picked up every time I cried, I coslept a lot for a long time and there were times when I was a teenager and had to go to my parents bed! That's fine in a place where families all live together forever but sorry, the US is not like that. I had a really hard time sleeping in college and then on my own. Even now, in my 30s and married, I still can't fall asleep alone. There are some things we can do for our children but we can't sleep for them--they have to learn how to do this so they are healthy for the rest of their lives.

I'm one of those PP that connected bad sleeping with back sleeping. I do think that DD had a real problem sleeping on her back. As soon as we figured that out and put her on her side to sleep, things got so much better. We also worked for several weeks to teach her how to be comfortable in her crib and go to sleep by herself without leaving her to cry alone. She now sleeps wonderfully (at 11 weeks, she sleeps 10+ hour stretches at night and can go to sleep ALL BY HERSELF for naps and bedtime), and we did not use CIO... And yes, I do pat myself on the back (in case anyone was thinking of asking).

But thanks for making an assumption that I'm an inconsistent parent who fosters bad sleep habits because I was able to deduce that my daughter didnt do well sleeping on her back.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just want to throw an idea out there: just because people hadn't heard of SIDS before they came to the US doesn't mean that it didn't happen at the same or higher rates than here. The reason we all know about it here is the result of an obviously successful campaign to make us all aware of it. I'm surprised how many PPs seem to connect sleep problems and other issues with back sleeping. I've noticed that some parents who don't sleep train come up with every excuse in the book about why the baby/child isn't sleeping at a given time (teething, etc.). Of course many things can interfere with sleep but the biggest excuse makers tend to be the inconsistent parents or those who create and then foster bad sleep habits.

As for CIO, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that we're back on that again. The posts about infants screaming and crying and all of this--frankly, this tends the parents who don't do the right things from the start and then go nuclear at 6, 7, 8, 9 months and beyond when they can't take it anymore. If you actually read Weissbluth or Ferber you'd see that this is not what CIO is about. Some people who created problems and then have to correct them have this kind of crying. Technically I did CIO I guess--but there was almost no crying. Because I started creating good habits early.

One reason I really wanted to help my baby develop sleep skills is that my parents didn't with me. I was picked up every time I cried, I coslept a lot for a long time and there were times when I was a teenager and had to go to my parents bed! That's fine in a place where families all live together forever but sorry, the US is not like that. I had a really hard time sleeping in college and then on my own. Even now, in my 30s and married, I still can't fall asleep alone. There are some things we can do for our children but we can't sleep for them--they have to learn how to do this so they are healthy for the rest of their lives.

Agree with this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just want to throw an idea out there: just because people hadn't heard of SIDS before they came to the US doesn't mean that it didn't happen at the same or higher rates than here. The reason we all know about it here is the result of an obviously successful campaign to make us all aware of it. I'm surprised how many PPs seem to connect sleep problems and other issues with back sleeping. I've noticed that some parents who don't sleep train come up with every excuse in the book about why the baby/child isn't sleeping at a given time (teething, etc.). Of course many things can interfere with sleep but the biggest excuse makers tend to be the inconsistent parents or those who create and then foster bad sleep habits.

As for CIO, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that we're back on that again. The posts about infants screaming and crying and all of this--frankly, this tends the parents who don't do the right things from the start and then go nuclear at 6, 7, 8, 9 months and beyond when they can't take it anymore. If you actually read Weissbluth or Ferber you'd see that this is not what CIO is about. Some people who created problems and then have to correct them have this kind of crying. Technically I did CIO I guess--but there was almost no crying. Because I started creating good habits early.

One reason I really wanted to help my baby develop sleep skills is that my parents didn't with me. I was picked up every time I cried, I coslept a lot for a long time and there were times when I was a teenager and had to go to my parents bed! That's fine in a place where families all live together forever but sorry, the US is not like that. I had a really hard time sleeping in college and then on my own. Even now, in my 30s and married, I still can't fall asleep alone. There are some things we can do for our children but we can't sleep for them--they have to learn how to do this so they are healthy for the rest of their lives.

Agree with this.

re the bold part, YOU'RE BOTH WRONG.
the research in SIDS is local. the data collected here is not valid for other places.
habits like not sleep training, keeping the baby closer during the night (instead of keeping them in a crib, alone in a room with a monitor watching them), picking them up more often, BF instead of FF actually REDUCE the risk of SIDS. the child doesn't sleep as deeply, they're handled more often, stimulated more often what is proven to reduce the risk of SIDS.
you can feel free to chose whatever parenting style you want, don't be afraid. please just don't try to fool yourself with false reassurance. please look for real facts.