Parents from other countries: how is "sleep training" handled overseas?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just to clear up a common misconception, sleep training doesn't equal CIO. Most of you are referring to the 6 months and up Ferber/CIO sleep training. That's latent, corrective sleep training. Sleep training, when done early and correctly, doesn't involve any crying. It's about laying the foundation for healthy sleep habits from day one. Following a few simple rules, babies will naturally start sleeping 10-12 hours by 12 weeks old. No crying, no starving, and it works for breast and bottle fed babies. You can't make a baby sleep, but if you have the right tools and info, your baby will naturally learn how to put himself to sleep and sleep through the night early.

So dish, what are the rules? FWIW, I'm East Asian, co-slept wtih my mom until I was 8 and am a fabulous sleeper. I didn't have a particularly good relationship with her either.

[Anonymous]

Interesting discussion. I'm North American born and raised.. but my BIL is Dutch. He doesn't call what he did with his kids "sleep training" or "CIO" or anything else. Instead he flips it around.. and considers the approach that's around now as spoiling. Co-sleeping, baby wearing, pick up put down and whatever else we call what we do as parents. He says it doesn't need a dozen different names.. kids now are coddled and spoiled.

His kids were on a routine and that just seemed to be the way it was. They went to bed, went to sleep and stayed asleep once they no longer needed to eat at night.

[Anonymous]

PP here, for the record I don't entirely disagree with him. Parenting has far too many names now, but he was just very straight forward. I'm not sure what he would have done with a child who strayed from what BIL was used to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the English sleep train, have baby nurses, and have the right idea about boarding school starting in the elementary years!

why bother having children then?

So they can pay for your old folks home. Duh.

[Anonymous]

My parents are from Latin America and my mom coslept with me and my siblings until we were each about 12. I remember feeling comforted and peaceful sleeping with her. And I do have a very close relationship with my mom. That said, I had a tough time sleeping in my own room when it was time. I remember feeling lonely, cold and even scared in my own room. So from my own experience I think cosleeping is wonderful but the transition to more independent sleeping can be challenging. I guess it also depends on the Childs personality type. I have such nice memories of cuddling with my mom that I feel a little guilty putting my son in his crib.

[Anonymous]

to the person who suggested the back sleeping thing being related to sleep issues and reflux, i agree 100%. my mother claims neither she nor any of her friends had to deal with the sleep issues we are all so obsessed with these days. of course, i continued to place my DD on her back until she could roll over both ways, but even our pediatrician (american, and very highly regarded on these boards) suggested that it probably wasn't a coincidence that our parents didn't have nearly as many sleep issues with us or reflux issues.

[Anonymous]

another vote for sleep disturbances associated with back sleeping. back in my home country where there's no sids paranoia, most babies have an easier time falling asleep on their sides or tummy. In our experience, from birth to about 4 months or so, it was impossible to put DS down unless he was in very deep sleep. We would try to let him settle, but the moment his back reached the mattress he would startle, set his moro reflex and would just start screaming until we pick him up again.Around 5 months he started turning to his side and sleeping this way, but now at almost 8 months, he flips onto his stomach and then doesn't know what to do in that position. He will then pull up on his chest, try to crawl, wake up and cry simply because he's not used to relax in that position.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi, 11:30PP here. I was not disparaging or judging anyone. I was very clear that I was talking about what came naturally to us, I don't understand why my recounting my personal experience should be interpreted as a judgment about anyone else's. I was simply responding to the OP whose thread was written as "sleep training" is the American way, period. I just don't think that is the case.

Fair enough. I would just be aware that using the word "natural" is going to come across to some people the wrong way. It seems to imply that doing sleep training is not natural. Obviously everyone is a bit senstive on this topic.

Interesting--I actually think that sleep training is NOT natural, because if it were, it wouldn't be so damned hard to hear your baby crying. Most mothers naturally want to soothe our babies, comfort them, even if it means leaving us completely drained. When I first heard of sleep training, it seemed to go against my instincts, as does the notion of forcing a child to "self-soothe." But having said that, I have a niece who was very successfully sleep trained (one night of ferberizing, actually very early on, made her a champion sleeper). And I know plenty of other kids who are great sleepers now, all because of the training.

Now, I admit actually having tried sleep training--I just have a very demanding baby that did not tire himself out crying, but just got more agitated, even with my coming in to soothe him by patting him, etc. He got PISSED and just kept getting louder. I didn't last long--the longest I was able to let him go was 10 minutes, and the training never worked. So I am completely exhausted and have decided that getting up in the middle of the night, nursing or soothing him, and going back to bed, is just easier, so I will suck it up. Most babies eventually sleep through the night, and so will he (right? you never hear of 4 year olds waking up every 45 minutes).

it's not that the training didn't work, it just wasn't for you it sounds like. it's my opinion that you have to be consistent and commit to letting them CIO. if you get them while they are crying then they learn to associate crying w/being rescued. it's all up to your personal feelings and comfort level. i just decided that i wasn't able to be as good of a mom when i was so freaking tired. i was miserable and therefore the kids were too, not to mention my husband. i would PERSONALLY prefer a bad week of sleep than a bad sleep over a long period of time. i know a handful of parents that have older kids (up to 12yo) w/major sleep problems STILL. no thanks.

[Anonymous]

to pp, i agree that it's mostly about your comfort level and preferences, but assuming that not doing CIO will equal bad sleeper is just not true. Most babies/toddlers outgrow the night wakings for comfort, parents' presence, etc., and even for those who don't naturally do that, parents can gradually adjust their soothing efforts to achieve that without ever resorting to CIO.

[Anonymous]

I think another reason we have more sleep issues is that our mothers mostly stayed home with us. I know once I went back to work, my very good sleeper started waking up more and more at night. Now at 6mo he's a terrible sleeper. It could be something else/developmental, but he's also able to flip over and sleep on his side or stomach and that doesn't seem to help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi, 11:30PP here. I was not disparaging or judging anyone. I was very clear that I was talking about what came naturally to us, I don't understand why my recounting my personal experience should be interpreted as a judgment about anyone else's. I was simply responding to the OP whose thread was written as "sleep training" is the American way, period. I just don't think that is the case.

Fair enough. I would just be aware that using the word "natural" is going to come across to some people the wrong way. It seems to imply that doing sleep training is not natural. Obviously everyone is a bit senstive on this topic.

Interesting--I actually think that sleep training is NOT natural, because if it were, it wouldn't be so damned hard to hear your baby crying. Most mothers naturally want to soothe our babies, comfort them, even if it means leaving us completely drained. When I first heard of sleep training, it seemed to go against my instincts, as does the notion of forcing a child to "self-soothe." But having said that, I have a niece who was very successfully sleep trained (one night of ferberizing, actually very early on, made her a champion sleeper). And I know plenty of other kids who are great sleepers now, all because of the training.

Now, I admit actually having tried sleep training--I just have a very demanding baby that did not tire himself out crying, but just got more agitated, even with my coming in to soothe him by patting him, etc. He got PISSED and just kept getting louder. I didn't last long--the longest I was able to let him go was 10 minutes, and the training never worked. So I am completely exhausted and have decided that getting up in the middle of the night, nursing or soothing him, and going back to bed, is just easier, so I will suck it up. Most babies eventually sleep through the night, and so will he (right? you never hear of 4 year olds waking up every 45 minutes).

it's not that the training didn't work, it just wasn't for you it sounds like. it's my opinion that you have to be consistent and commit to letting them CIO. if you get them while they are crying then they learn to associate crying w/being rescued. it's all up to your personal feelings and comfort level. i just decided that i wasn't able to be as good of a mom when i was so freaking tired. i was miserable and therefore the kids were too, not to mention my husband. i would PERSONALLY prefer a bad week of sleep than a bad sleep over a long period of time. i know a handful of parents that have older kids (up to 12yo) w/major sleep problems STILL. no thanks.

You had me, except for that part. That's the last thing I want, for baby to learn that crying for mama won't get her "rescued." My heart hurts just thinking about it.

[Anonymous]

OP, I'm one of the Latin American moms. Since you're waffling about doing sleep training (CIO style if I read right), it may help to read pshychologist Erik Erikson. His theory of psychosocial stages is widely accepted. Its first stage (birth to 18 months) is about trust vs. mistrust, which roughly means that a child needs to develop trust in order to feel secure in the world. Therefore it's crucial during this period to have caregivers consistently respond to their child's needs for food, comfort, and affection. Dependability is key at this stage, as they enter the second period of autonomy vs. shame & doubt (2-3 years) , in which the toddler starts exercising more independence and testing his limits in the world.
I guess we sometimes forget how dependent babies are, and we grow expectations that are way too high for them. I find strange that so many posters here give a negative connotation to the "baby cry, parents show up" routine. Well that's exactly how it's supposed to be, and this is what gives the baby a sense of security and predictability. On the other hand, several months of doing this every night all night long takes a toll on most parents, so in the end you have to decide what's most important to you and how you can best preserve your ability to care for and nurture your baby.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm one of the Latin American moms. Since you're waffling about doing sleep training (CIO style if I read right), it may help to read pshychologist Erik Erikson. His theory of psychosocial stages is widely accepted. Its first stage (birth to 18 months) is about trust vs. mistrust, which roughly means that a child needs to develop trust in order to feel secure in the world. Therefore it's crucial during this period to have caregivers consistently respond to their child's needs for food, comfort, and affection. Dependability is key at this stage, as they enter the second period of autonomy vs. shame & doubt (2-3 years) , in which the toddler starts exercising more independence and testing his limits in the world.
I guess we sometimes forget how dependent babies are, and we grow expectations that are way too high for them. I find strange that so many posters here give a negative connotation to the "baby cry, parents show up" routine. Well that's exactly how it's supposed to be, and this is what gives the baby a sense of security and predictability. On the other hand, several months of doing this every night all night long takes a toll on most parents, so in the end you have to decide what's most important to you and how you can best preserve your ability to care for and nurture your baby.

Sigh. Why did this have to turn into a debate about whether sleep training is harming babies? It has been such an interesting, mostly civil discussion.

Many families sleep train (ie. CIO/Ferber). And many don't. And most kids in both groups are just fine. Making sweeping generalizations like you do here ignores the fact that different children can be very different in their sleep habits and abilities. Some need to be taught to get themselves back to sleep after a sleep cycle, and some can learn it on their own. If you don't teach the group that really really needs to be taught (however you do that teaching), those kids suffer from chronic fatigue, and are at risk for sleep problems down the road.

[Anonymous]

We lived in Europe for 3 years when my daughter was a year old. We had done sleep training around 6 months and was a very good sleeper. We were in a playgroup with other English-speaking moms (British, German, Italian, Chilean, etc.) and I was shocked to learn that at 15 months old my daughter was the only one in the group who actually slept through the night.

It just wasn't in the culture for people to do sleep training, plus with living in small apartments close to others I think some felt they couldn't just let their children cry even if they wanted to.

I had one friend (American) who also let her daughter fuss it out at bedtime and occasionally would get passersby knocking on her door or windows chiding her for not attending to her child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm one of the Latin American moms. Since you're waffling about doing sleep training (CIO style if I read right), it may help to read pshychologist Erik Erikson. His theory of psychosocial stages is widely accepted. Its first stage (birth to 18 months) is about trust vs. mistrust, which roughly means that a child needs to develop trust in order to feel secure in the world. Therefore it's crucial during this period to have caregivers consistently respond to their child's needs for food, comfort, and affection. Dependability is key at this stage, as they enter the second period of autonomy vs. shame & doubt (2-3 years) , in which the toddler starts exercising more independence and testing his limits in the world.
I guess we sometimes forget how dependent babies are, and we grow expectations that are way too high for them. I find strange that so many posters here give a negative connotation to the "baby cry, parents show up" routine. Well that's exactly how it's supposed to be, and this is what gives the baby a sense of security and predictability. On the other hand, several months of doing this every night all night long takes a toll on most parents, so in the end you have to decide what's most important to you and how you can best preserve your ability to care for and nurture your baby.

Sigh. Why did this have to turn into a debate about whether sleep training is harming babies? It has been such an interesting, mostly civil discussion.

Many families sleep train (ie. CIO/Ferber). And many don't. And most kids in both groups are just fine. Making sweeping generalizations like you do here ignores the fact that different children can be very different in their sleep habits and abilities. Some need to be taught to get themselves back to sleep after a sleep cycle, and some can learn it on their own. If you don't teach the group that really really needs to be taught (however you do that teaching), those kids suffer from chronic fatigue, and are at risk for sleep problems down the road.

pp here. unsure where you read in my post that sleep training harms babies. And how exactly was my post not civil? It was OP who mentioned previously how she's been looking for research to base her conclusion on whether to sleep train or not. Perhaps you're defensive about your choices regarding sleep training. Just face them with its benefits and fallbacks. You don't have to rationalize or justify yourself to anyone.