Parents from other countries: how is "sleep training" handled overseas?

[Anonymous]

I think the idea that not sleep training means horrid sleep when they're older is absolutely ridiculous. There are not whole nations of adults who don't know how to sleep.

I didn't CIO. We cosleep with our 15mo and coslept with our 3.5 yo until she was 2. She's a great sleeper. I realize it is anecdotal, but none of my close friends have done CIO and their kids all sleep well as well. No sleep issues. I do not for one second think not letting an infant CIO means they'll never sleep well. I do know children who DID do CIO who have sleep issues emerge in the preschool years.

I also wouldn't assume that those who don't CIO have great sleepers naturally. Both of mine have nursed every 45 min or so. My 15mo now tries to put herself back to sleep for maybe 5 minutes and if she can't, she rolls over to nurse. She'll get there, just as my older one did.

[Anonymous]

I'm Indian and co-slept with my parents until 5 and then co-slept with my sister until 14! We also slept on a thin mattress that was kept on the floor. AND it was HOT! My parents never let me cry for longer than 20 seconds. They did not have tons of help because they lived far from family and could not afford help. I have to say that in "American standards" they spoiled me- never let me cry too much, pampered me as much as they could, HELD me every where, never spanked or yelled etc. The outcome? Well, I sleep reasonably well- I have my moments. And I am soooo close to my parents. I think they are awesome. My sister and brother both sleep like logs and are also very very close to our parents. So now I have my own baby with a husband not Indian. And the question arose whether to sleep train or not. I have nothing against it- I think it is right for SOME babies and NOT right for others. For my baby, we did not do it. We co-slept for a year and now are transitioning to his crib. For what it worth, we are doing it the transition VERY slowly and it is working great so far. But to be honest, I would not mind co-sleeping for another year... or 2.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:south asian here: generally letting an infant cry it out is considered cruel in our country, but i admit, there is a LOT more help back home than here - all women in the middle or upper classes have a baby nurse (and maid and cook; my cousin has a nanny, 2 maids, a cook, a gardener, and a driver) and many live in extended families, so granny or an aunt is available to help out with the baby. I think poorer people still co-sleep, but in upper class families, infant are more often (but not always) put into bassinettes either right next to the mother or in the next room with an overnight baby nurse (to ferry the child back and forth to the mother if she wishes to breastfeed). Again, sometimes a family member fills in this role - often, a young niece or cousin comes in to help with the baby-care - my mother helped care for her cousin's newborn when she was 15. I think most children are "gently" sleep trained and yes, it may take them longer to be fully able to spend the whole night in their beds, but it does happen eventually!

If I had a baby nurse and a cook and a couple maids to spare, I'd NEVER allow my baby nurse to let my baby cry. Because it would disturb me while I laid around all day watching TV, reading trashy magazines, napping, and eating the fabulous meals my cook prepared for me. When can I move to this country?

2nd poster -- you're a jerk. When you're middle class or above in certain areas of the world, you have domestic help. It's just how it is.

I don't think she sounds like a jerk. Actually, I think she sounds quite considerate. I'm with her. If you have help, what would be the reasoning for letting your baby cry? You sound a little defensive to be labeling another poster a 'jerk' for no good reason.

[Anonymous]

I'm from an Asian country and I co-slept with my parents, then slept in the same room as them until I was 12.

The PPs are correct that in other countries there is more family around. More people than just the mom and dad to comfort the baby when he/she cries. More hands. Servants/maids.

It makes a huge difference.

That being said, we did CIO with our DS because we needed sleep. I was going back to work, and we had to do something. I'm happy with the results.

And, FWIW I'm not very close to my parents AT ALL. We have never gotten along well, and still don't. It's civil, but not close. So, from my experience co-sleeping doesn't always mean a close relationship in adulthood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
She also said her mom would help her when her babies were crying, and she often woke up to help me when DC was really inconsolable. So I think the expectation among mothers there is (a) your sleep will definitely be interrupted and (b) it will be a team effort and you'll be supported by other women.

This is such a nice story. How amazing to have this attitude about the whole thing and to have someone in your family that will support you this way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP again. I just wanted to clarify that the Eastern European babysitter did not advocate letting DC cry to sleep. She was opposed to it, which is why she said I should have addressed the issue sooner, when all I'd have encountered was some fussing as DC got used to falling asleep alone in the crib from the beginning. So I'm trying to learn what I should do next time with DC#2!

For what it's worth OP, this was true for my baby. We started to let him settle himself down from awake in the crib from about 4 months. We never let him fuss/cry for more than 10 minutes in the beginning and then we'd go back and do minimal soothing and leave again (as a PP described, I think). I will say it is really hard to suddenly change your approach at this age though. You get really used to picking them up instantly when they cry. So it's defnitely a process where you have to stop treating them like a newborn. I was surprised how quickly my son was able to adapt. We never had any marathon screaming sessions. He's 6+ months and reliably puts himself to sleep (or back to sleep in the middle of the night) with no crying or less than 5 minutes of fussing.

You know, I think what your babysitter suggested is essentially what we did. I was trying for the "putting down sleepy but awake" starting around 8-12 weeks, but effectively also worked on letting her fuss a bit at an early age. It worked for us, but totally agree that it depends on the baby. We were lucky to get a good sleeper.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm the PP who didn't have the stamina to fully sleep-train my son and noted that you don't hear about 4-5 year olds who wake up every 45 minutes. (By the way, my son is only 9 months old now, so there's still time if i change my mind). I still maintain that it's not "natural" to sleep-train, but that doesn't mean I'm categorically opposed to it, especially if it means the baby is happier and well-rested throughout the day.

FWIW, I wasn't sleep-trained, and I'm a horrible sleeper. My parents came here as adults from Eastern Europe, where there was no such thing...perhaps i never learned to "self-soothe," and that is the cause of my intermittnet insomnia and frequent waking. But surely not all of your parents sleep-trained you (and certainly not the PPs from other countries); isn't sleep-training a somewhat modern (and American and also possibly British) thing? I could be wrong.

The way my mother makes it sound, all the mothers in the 70s put their babies in the crib (on tummy, of course) and then shut the door and went downstairs and had a drink. Some of us cried and some of us didn't. And nobody felt bad about it. Who knows if that's true but that's apparently what she did to me and I sleep like a log. Still on my tummy too. And as far as I know I'm not totally deranged and I have lots of normal, loving relationships. Including the one with my parents.

Excellent and interesting thread. I have to say, per the bolded above, I have often wondered what the back to sleep stuff has contributed to all these problems. I know this is very anecdotal, but my mom and her generation seems to swear that no kid (I guess us?) even HAD sleep problems. It just wasnt' an issue. They had eating issues and such, but I think we all just slept reasonably normally and well.

I think the back to sleep is so unnatural for a baby that it has the potential to screw up many kids except for those blessed few who sleep like rocks anyway. Think of all the relfux too, no one had reflux when we were little (I'm 33). I DID put my babies on their backs bc of the safety, but I have often wondered how it's contributed to the myriad sleep issues that SO many people contend with these days...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:south asian here: generally letting an infant cry it out is considered cruel in our country, but i admit, there is a LOT more help back home than here - all women in the middle or upper classes have a baby nurse (and maid and cook; my cousin has a nanny, 2 maids, a cook, a gardener, and a driver) and many live in extended families, so granny or an aunt is available to help out with the baby. I think poorer people still co-sleep, but in upper class families, infant are more often (but not always) put into bassinettes either right next to the mother or in the next room with an overnight baby nurse (to ferry the child back and forth to the mother if she wishes to breastfeed). Again, sometimes a family member fills in this role - often, a young niece or cousin comes in to help with the baby-care - my mother helped care for her cousin's newborn when she was 15. I think most children are "gently" sleep trained and yes, it may take them longer to be fully able to spend the whole night in their beds, but it does happen eventually!

If I had a baby nurse and a cook and a couple maids to spare, I'd NEVER allow my baby nurse to let my baby cry. Because it would disturb me while I laid around all day watching TV, reading trashy magazines, napping, and eating the fabulous meals my cook prepared for me. When can I move to this country?

2nd poster -- you're a jerk. When you're middle class or above in certain areas of the world, you have domestic help. It's just how it is.

I don't think she sounds like a jerk. Actually, I think she sounds quite considerate. I'm with her. If you have help, what would be the reasoning for letting your baby cry? You sound a little defensive to be labeling another poster a 'jerk' for no good reason.

I agree. I think you misread this a little. I think the poster was joking and a little wistful. We forgive you though. The internets make it hard to tell when people are joking. A might have helped. <--see?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm the PP who didn't have the stamina to fully sleep-train my son and noted that you don't hear about 4-5 year olds who wake up every 45 minutes. (By the way, my son is only 9 months old now, so there's still time if i change my mind). I still maintain that it's not "natural" to sleep-train, but that doesn't mean I'm categorically opposed to it, especially if it means the baby is happier and well-rested throughout the day.

FWIW, I wasn't sleep-trained, and I'm a horrible sleeper. My parents came here as adults from Eastern Europe, where there was no such thing...perhaps i never learned to "self-soothe," and that is the cause of my intermittnet insomnia and frequent waking. But surely not all of your parents sleep-trained you (and certainly not the PPs from other countries); isn't sleep-training a somewhat modern (and American and also possibly British) thing? I could be wrong.

The way my mother makes it sound, all the mothers in the 70s put their babies in the crib (on tummy, of course) and then shut the door and went downstairs and had a drink. Some of us cried and some of us didn't. And nobody felt bad about it. Who knows if that's true but that's apparently what she did to me and I sleep like a log. Still on my tummy too. And as far as I know I'm not totally deranged and I have lots of normal, loving relationships. Including the one with my parents.

Excellent and interesting thread. I have to say, per the bolded above, I have often wondered what the back to sleep stuff has contributed to all these problems. I know this is very anecdotal, but my mom and her generation seems to swear that no kid (I guess us?) even HAD sleep problems. It just wasnt' an issue. They had eating issues and such, but I think we all just slept reasonably normally and well.

I think the back to sleep is so unnatural for a baby that it has the potential to screw up many kids except for those blessed few who sleep like rocks anyway. Think of all the relfux too, no one had reflux when we were little (I'm 33). I DID put my babies on their backs bc of the safety, but I have often wondered how it's contributed to the myriad sleep issues that SO many people contend with these days...

I've wondered this too. Also did the back sleeping, but as soon as DS could roll he was on his tummy...and sooo much happier. It's hard to say the SIDS stuff is overblown, because there's a lot of data that shows that it isn't, but it certainly seems a little excessive sometimes -- nothing in the crib but a bare mattress, fans going, etc. I still remember the first night we brought DS home from the hospital and put him down to sleep in the bare pack and play with no blanket, lovey, nothing. My MIL reflexively put a small burp cloth over him. A pathetic gesture really, because it wasn't going to do anything, it was so tiny and thin -- but my SIDS alarm went off right away. Ridiculous. DS survived it of course.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:south asian here: generally letting an infant cry it out is considered cruel in our country, but i admit, there is a LOT more help back home than here - all women in the middle or upper classes have a baby nurse (and maid and cook; my cousin has a nanny, 2 maids, a cook, a gardener, and a driver) and many live in extended families, so granny or an aunt is available to help out with the baby. I think poorer people still co-sleep, but in upper class families, infant are more often (but not always) put into bassinettes either right next to the mother or in the next room with an overnight baby nurse (to ferry the child back and forth to the mother if she wishes to breastfeed). Again, sometimes a family member fills in this role - often, a young niece or cousin comes in to help with the baby-care - my mother helped care for her cousin's newborn when she was 15. I think most children are "gently" sleep trained and yes, it may take them longer to be fully able to spend the whole night in their beds, but it does happen eventually!

If I had a baby nurse and a cook and a couple maids to spare, I'd NEVER allow my baby nurse to let my baby cry. Because it would disturb me while I laid around all day watching TV, reading trashy magazines, napping, and eating the fabulous meals my cook prepared for me. When can I move to this country?

2nd poster -- you're a jerk. When you're middle class or above in certain areas of the world, you have domestic help. It's just how it is.

I don't think she sounds like a jerk. Actually, I think she sounds quite considerate. I'm with her. If you have help, what would be the reasoning for letting your baby cry? You sound a little defensive to be labeling another poster a 'jerk' for no good reason.

Perhaps not a jerk, but definitely ill-informed and the post was incredibly short sighted. I had live abroad extensively. In most places, CIO is unheard of and sleep training is not something mothers concern themselves with as a concept. These mothers are from ALL CLASSES and some are cooks and maids in the peoples homes that the PP referred to. They have full time jobs and/or other children. Sleep deprivation? Actually they seem more rested. Many are not from Europe (most of the world's population is not) and do not have extensive maternity leave.

There are many parents in the US who believe that their children will be harmed without sleep training. That is another reason why people let their babies cry...

THis is an interesting conversation and it would be great to hear from people with different experiences in sleep training.

[Anonymous]

I'm from South America and baby sleep is handled very differently across social classes. In upper classes the structured routine and "gentler" sleep training such as baby whisperer are very in, among young couples especially. Many well-off families have sleep in nannies who handle night wakings by rocking, holding, calming, etc. and hand the baby to mom when it's time to feed. There's a trend now of pediatricians advising parents to let their babies cry at night after 6 months or so , but most parents who do that are not following a systematic approach. They are rather just letting baby settle and think he will eventually fall asleep after "being tired of crying". There's no overthinking about self-soothing skills and building lifelong sleep patterns that seem to worry so many parents in the US. At any rate, maternity leave is longer and availability of help, be it a nanny or family members, is the rule rather than exception.
In lower economic classes, cosleeping is common mostly due to lack of space than as a choice, and the breast is a very natural solution for everything, that is, to put baby to sleep and handle night wakings, it is just assumed that baby wants to eat and mom will nurse as many times as necessary at night.
I think that with such short maternity leave, stressful work life and no support from family sleep training has become so popular in the US. Another factor may be that couples are much older and thus less able to cope with lack of sleep and find the energy required to handle a sleep deprived baby as well.

[Anonymous]

I think the thing that's weird about how our generation has come to handle this in the U.S. is the whole attaching a label to it thing and then following thru on some prepackaged program

My mom seems to have no memory of any of the sleep issues that I confronted with my kids (I totally think the PP is onto something with the whole stomach vs. back sleeping thing) and neither do any of her friends. BUT I doubt that means I was held all the time. I think there was some expectation that, well, babies cry sometimes and they would probably let the baby cry for a while, but, on the other hand, if the baby was crying for more than say 15 minutes, they would pick the baby up

We've gotten so "scientific" with it now with the sleep training thing. My personal experience is that I was rabidly anti-sleep training with my first child and eventually, through a more gentle approach we got him sleeping thru the night by around a year although the first few months were really rough. However, despite my significant objections, I did have to do some sleep training with my second child, who is now 2 and was just a horrible sleeper as an infant. At 6 months, nothing worked. I had been co-sleeping and would have continued it, but, at that point, even that was no good. She never wanted to co-sleep next to me, I always had to hold her while she slept, but by 6 months, she wasn't actually comfortable like that anymore. So, she would wake constantly and basically wanted me to walk her around bouncing her for hours all night long (literally waking up 6-7 times a night and not to eat). Neither of us were sleeping at all - it was a disaster. We tried sort of a modified approach to CIO (I first let her cry at bedtime only and then once she was going to sleep w/o crying I would let her cry at her first wakeup). I also caved on many occasions. It was a very up and down process that took a little while, but I did it w/o excessive crying for hours on end (most of the time it was no more than 30 min.) and that was all I could handle. The waking up got better gradually and she's a pretty good sleeper now, although some nights she is up and wants someone in her room while she falls back to sleep.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I think the back to sleep is so unnatural for a baby that it has the potential to screw up many kids except for those blessed few who sleep like rocks anyway. Think of all the relfux too, no one had reflux when we were little (I'm 33). I DID put my babies on their backs bc of the safety, but I have often wondered how it's contributed to the myriad sleep issues that SO many people contend with these days...

I agree with this. In fact, my DD did not sleep well at all for the first few weeks. And around 8 weeks I accidentally got her to sleep on her side. And she slept sooo well. So now that's how she sleeps. In fact, not long ago I decided I was being a bad mom with the whole SIDS thing and thought that now she had the sleeping thing down I would try the back sleeping again - it went horribly! So, she's on her side again. I'd actually just put her on her stomach if she wasn't still swaddled.

[Anonymous]

Just to clear up a common misconception, sleep training doesn't equal CIO. Most of you are referring to the 6 months and up Ferber/CIO sleep training. That's latent, corrective sleep training. Sleep training, when done early and correctly, doesn't involve any crying. It's about laying the foundation for healthy sleep habits from day one. Following a few simple rules, babies will naturally start sleeping 10-12 hours by 12 weeks old. No crying, no starving, and it works for breast and bottle fed babies. You can't make a baby sleep, but if you have the right tools and info, your baby will naturally learn how to put himself to sleep and sleep through the night early.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the English sleep train, have baby nurses, and have the right idea about boarding school starting in the elementary years!

why bother having children then?