Proof of Citizenship

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Get real. Where the heck do you think most of the illegal immigrants in Arizona actually come from? And don't you think it makes a huge difference in terms of assimilation if the immigrant's original homeland is right next door? (Even leaving aside the fact of all those Mexican flags that were flown at the immigration protests some years back.)

Fine, people who oppose immigration are racist, I get it. Let's stipulate that I am a racist and then talk policy. How many people do we want to be living in this country and where we want them to come from? How many people do you want living in the U.S.A., Mr. Steele? And who do you want those people to be? How shall we choose them? And don't you think there is at least some down-side to mass immigration? Who should bear those costs?

My answer to questions such as "where we want them to come from" will be "I don't care". Why should we treat people differently based on national origin? Doing so is inherently discriminatory. Much of the problem with our current immigration policy is that is has been overly politicized. Is it fair that Cubans are automatically welcome if they are able to touch US soil (by whatever means) while a Haitian is deported? Can anyone seriously argue that Cubans are worse off in their homeland than Haitians?

Many of you seem so concerned that immigrants will change our country's culture and values. Perhaps this is due to language. While Spanish existed in much of today's USA earlier than English (do San Francisco, El Paso, Albuquerque, or even Toledo sound like English names?), there is tremendous animosity towards the use of Spanish. But, the irony is that to combat potential corruption of our culture, you support efforts that are directly contradictory to our alleged values. Laws that presume you guilty until proven innocent are un-American. Frankly, I am more fearful of the damage you are doing to our values than I am of harm coming from immigrants.

You didn't answer how many. If the answer is anything other than "whoever wants to come", we will need to make decisions about numbers and sources. Also, don't you acknowledge that in a democracy, changing the demographics and culture of the electorate will likely change the outcomes of elections? Isn't that kind of a big deal?

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:You didn't answer how many. If the answer is anything other than "whoever wants to come", we will need to make decisions about numbers and sources. Also, don't you acknowledge that in a democracy, changing the demographics and culture of the electorate will likely change the outcomes of elections? Isn't that kind of a big deal?

I think that trying to set a number of how many immigrants are allowed is unrealistic and is little more than a theoretical exercise in any case. The entire basis of this discussion is our failure to control immigration. We can build fences, deploy the military, dig a moat, whatever, and we still won't be able to control it. That is actually one reason I am not so concerned about illegal immigrants. Only the industrious make it. The lazy ones are still back home waiting on checks from their harder-working brethren.

Rather, I would analyze what is the inflow and plan for that number.

I am not sure that we can accurately predict the outcome of changing demographics. One example, at one time Hispanics were considered likely to be Republicans due to a culture of hard work and self-reliance, opposition to abortion, and strong family values. But, the Republican position on immigration has made them a strong Democratic voting block. Who knows what will happen in the future?

A question for people who know this stuff better than me: Why is Texas so much more enlightened on this topic (now that's a sentence I never expected to write)?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You didn't answer how many. If the answer is anything other than "whoever wants to come", we will need to make decisions about numbers and sources. Also, don't you acknowledge that in a democracy, changing the demographics and culture of the electorate will likely change the outcomes of elections? Isn't that kind of a big deal?

I think that trying to set a number of how many immigrants are allowed is unrealistic and is little more than a theoretical exercise in any case. The entire basis of this discussion is our failure to control immigration. We can build fences, deploy the military, dig a moat, whatever, and we still won't be able to control it. That is actually one reason I am not so concerned about illegal immigrants. Only the industrious make it. The lazy ones are still back home waiting on checks from their harder-working brethren.

Rather, I would analyze what is the inflow and plan for that number.

I am not sure that we can accurately predict the outcome of changing demographics. One example, at one time Hispanics were considered likely to be Republicans due to a culture of hard work and self-reliance, opposition to abortion, and strong family values. But, the Republican position on immigration has made them a strong Democratic voting block. Who knows what will happen in the future?

A question for people who know this stuff better than me: Why is Texas so much more enlightened on this topic (now that's a sentence I never expected to write)?

As I said, illegal immigrants self select for corruption.
BTW, how do you suggest that all of the health care practitioners get paid for the services that they provide to these people? In some areas, the rate of non-pay illegal alien approaches 40%. Would you be willing to take home 40% less because your services are being given to someone else?

We need to change the work environment, not the worker.
As I have stated before, when they become legal residents, they will demand a better standard of living, thus no more sweatshops.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:Once again I am disappointed, though at this point no longer surprised, that there is so little interest in the constitutional issues. As Americans, we have no legal requirement to even show identification under normal circumstances. If I am stopped randomly by a police officer, I can legally not even identify myself, let along prove my citizenship. Arizona strips us of this right.

Second, but more importantly, the Arizona law assumes you are guilty until proven innocent. If a police officer stops you, suspects that you are illegal, it is up to you to prove he is wrong. Otherwise, you go to jail. This stands the foundation of the American justice system on its head.

How many people do you know that do not have a passport? How many of them may not be able to locate their birth certificate? How are they going to prove their innocence?

Every day our rights are being stripped from us. But, unless those rights involves guns or taxes, very few people seem to care.

Where the hell were you when the Patriot Act was passed?

You don't have to have a passport if you aren't going out of the country but you do have to have a birth certificate if you are born here. Also you have a green card if you are here legally. If you are here legally and become a citizen then you are given proof of citizenship.

Have you any idea how many taxpayer dollars go to fund medical care for illegals and US citizens can get nothing? Have you any idea of how much it costs US taxpayers to incarcerate illegals who, if apprehended, are tried, (represented by Public Defender's office funded by taxpayer dollars) convicted, and sentenced for criminal activity--mainly drugs?

The Federal government has done nothing but mouth "Immigration Reform"; even if you have a flea size brain you know nothing will be done because they don't want to lose the Hispanic vote.

Amnesty was given to 12 million illegals once and now politicians want to give another 12 million amnesty. How long do we keep rewarding those who deliberatly break US laws? This just sends the message to another 24 million that "Yeah, come on over. Work under the table and don't pay taxes. It's all right if you are here illegally because you can have a baby every year and they will be citizens. We'll give you food stamps that you can sell for beer and cigarette money or buy food senior American citizens can only dream about. We aren't giving them food stamps because they don't have an illegitimate child every year. They just worked hard, served their country in time of war, and were good, ordinary citizens. We're the Generous Americans and we'll make it a crime to deny you any social services because you are in a protected status--YOU ARE AN ILLEGAL--you are guaranteed to receive all other social sevices that many, many Citizens or legals are denied.

Don't worry about money. We know that the only way you can make a decent wage is to sell drugs to children. Sell drugs, use drugs, join a gang, kill people, 50 of you can live in a house intended for a small family unit; pave your lawns so you have a place to park all those jalopies with bad brakes and bald tires or those gas-guzzling SUV (how does an illegal find the money to pay for these other than drugs?) ; no driver's license and no automobile insurance. Don't worry about learning to speak, read, or write English because we spend billions of dollars every year printing everything in Spanish.

It works two ways, if you're a female, you can find plenty of work as an illegal nanny, but you will have to learn to be beyond subserviant to the kind, kind Americans who hire you to care for their spoiled brats. The altruistic employers who pay you under the table so they can avoid paying their fair share of taxes and who cheat illegals out of social security so they can have something for their retirement. I forgot, no Workman's Compensation for illegals so if they are injured on the job and can't work, one way or another, taxpayers pay for their lifetime medical care.

Wake up people. This is an election year and no legislation this controversial and with so much potential for violence is going to be enacted by Congress. The Presient is in Iowa today trying to regain popularity. The White House and Congress will pay lip service and that is all. There is too much to lose.

I am a Democrat, turned Independent, and have never voted for a Republican and unless another Abraham Lincoln runs for office, can' magine that I ever will.

Arizona's newly enacted legislation isn't racial profiling. It's common sense and I hope all 50 states will follow their example.l

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Where the hell were you when the Patriot Act was passed?

It should be pretty obvious that I opposed the Patriot Act. I assume that you supported it since you consider taking away our rights to be "common sense"?

Anonymous wrote:You don't have to have a passport if you aren't going out of the country but you do have to have a birth certificate if you are born here. Also you have a green card if you are here legally. If you are here legally and become a citizen then you are given proof of citizenship.

Many people cannot locate their birth certificates and even those who can don't make a practice of carrying it with them. If you go out for a jog, do you routinely take your birth certificate? If you go to the pool, do you take your birth certificate? Regardless, birth certificates are easy to fake or obtain illegally.

Anonymous wrote:Have you any idea how many taxpayer dollars go to fund medical care for illegals and US citizens can get nothing? Have you any idea of how much it costs US taxpayers to incarcerate illegals who, if apprehended, are tried, (represented by Public Defender's office funded by taxpayer dollars) convicted, and sentenced for criminal activity--mainly drugs?

Since you apparently have the facts at your fingertips, why don't you tell me how much is spent? Also, you are wrong about your accusation that most illegals are in jail due to drugs. Do your research. Most are in jail for being illegal.

Anonymous wrote:The Federal government has done nothing but mouth "Immigration Reform"; even if you have a flea size brain you know nothing will be done because they don't want to lose the Hispanic vote.

Immigration reform will actually gain the Hispanic vote. Not doing anything will cost Democrats that vote. Your analysis is totally backwards. If nothing is done, it will be because Republicans block it, and in the process, lose whatever minuscule Hispanic vote they might have gotten.

Anonymous wrote:Amnesty was given to 12 million illegals once and now politicians want to give another 12 million amnesty. How long do we keep rewarding those who deliberatly break US laws? This just sends the message to another 24 million that "Yeah, come on over. Work under the table and don't pay taxes. It's all right if you are here illegally because you can have a baby every year and they will be citizens. We'll give you food stamps that you can sell for beer and cigarette money or buy food senior American citizens can only dream about. We aren't giving them food stamps because they don't have an illegitimate child every year. They just worked hard, served their country in time of war, and were good, ordinary citizens. We're the Generous Americans and we'll make it a crime to deny you any social services because you are in a protected status--YOU ARE AN ILLEGAL--you are guaranteed to receive all other social sevices that many, many Citizens or legals are denied.

You really need to settle on one canard and run with it. Right now, you are all over the place. According to you, illegals are both working and living on welfare. Which is it? Are they stealing our jobs or lazily living off our taxes? Again, you have reality upside down. Rather than receiving protected status, illegals are not eligible for many social services. In fact, even legal immigrants are not eligible for many social services such as Medicare (until they have worked for 10 years).

Anonymous wrote:Don't worry about money. We know that the only way you can make a decent wage is to sell drugs to children. Sell drugs, use drugs, join a gang, kill people, 50 of you can live in a house intended for a small family unit; pave your lawns so you have a place to park all those jalopies with bad brakes and bald tires or those gas-guzzling SUV (how does an illegal find the money to pay for these other than drugs?) ; no driver's license and no automobile insurance. Don't worry about learning to speak, read, or write English because we spend billions of dollars every year printing everything in Spanish.

Wait, I thought illegals were working under the table and/or living off welfare based on having a baby every year. Now they are selling drugs as well? This must be some sort of super race. Able to have a baby every 12 months, work multiple full time jobs stolen from hard-working Americans, and run a drug-selling ring? Amazing. And, all of it without knowing English.

Anonymous wrote:Arizona's newly enacted legislation isn't racial profiling. It's common sense and I hope all 50 states will follow their example.l

Actually, I sort of agree with your last point. It would be pretty funny watching the supporters of this law deal with its consequences. If I were a lawyer, I'd be setting up shop in Arizona right now. It's going to be a law suit bonanza. When Arizona starts cutting funding to schools to pay for lawsuits, maybe people will start looking at things differently.

[Anonymous]

To all those who don't want to be burdened by a heavy passport, they have new fangled ones (in Europe) the size of a credit card. So yes Jeff, some day you will be able to carry it while jogging.

[Anonymous]

Isn't the real aim of the law to get the federal government to actually do something since they have to know the law will most likely be struck down?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To all those who don't want to be burdened by a heavy passport, they have new fangled ones (in Europe) the size of a credit card. So yes Jeff, some day you will be able to carry it while jogging.

They have them here too!

[Anonymous]

Every state has a Dept. of Vital Statistics--that's where you can get a copy of your birth certificate. My parents gave my original certificate when I was 21 and I've kept it with important papers in a metal safe. I've lived abroad and to get a passport you need a birth crtificate.

Also, about carrying a passport--that may be extreme but you certainly do need to have identification on your person at all times. If you're driving, a driver's license; if you're jogging you should have something to identify yourself, if, for no other reason that if something happens to you--heart attack, hit by car--your family can be notified.

Anyway, national identity cards are a given in the not so distant future. Welcome to post-9/11.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Regarding the property seizure laws, here is a link from the conservative Cato institute denouncing these laws.

http://www.cato.org/testimony/ct-rp072296.html

This is a perfect example of how a well-intentioned tool in law enforcement can be abused to the detriment of civil liberties.

Cato institute is libertarian. As much as common with far-left as far-right, more power to them.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To all those who are against the new law, please let me know at what point our immigration laws should be enforced? Can we support ALL of Latin America in the US?
Also, will the fruit just rot before being picked if we don't have illegal immigrants to pick it? Will lawns go to seed?

The implicit racism of the supporters of the Arizona law is accurately demonstrated by this post. People from all over the world come to the US illegally (or come legally and stay illegally). But, it is only "Latin America" that arouses concern. This despite the fact that illegal immigrants from China and India (and probably several other countries) outnumber those from many Latin American countries.

The Statue of Liberty says, "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

It is long past the time that this hypocritical statue should have been torn down. It's ideals are no longer represented by America. It should be replaced by an electric fence.

So because a line from Emma Lazarus' poem engraved on a 19th c gift to the US from France does not accurately reflect the nuances or pragmatism of modern US immigration policy in a global world, the statue should be toppled to the ground? Are you for real?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Jeff, Pahleeze! The LAW says, enter the country legally. That staue lady has something to do with ideals not law. And she did not say sneak across the border. BTW, in Arizona MOST of the illegal aliens are from Latin America.
I agree that the folks in Arizona would not have noticed these "problem" as quickly if the illegal aliens were white. But the fact is that they are breaking the law. If they can come here illegally, then we should all get a free pass on something, like when I get a speeding ticket, I should not have to pay a cent,...just because.

But the law makes it impossible for most of these folks to enter the country legally. Telling them act legally is a giant cop-out because they have no legal option. Also, I assume that you do speed frequently without getting a ticket. I assume you break any number of laws fairly routinely and get away with it. Do you always signal for lane changes? Do you voluntarily pay sales tax on items you purchase over the internet when the merchant doesn't charge you tax?

Is entering America legally a right or a policy? Sounds like you think it's a right.

[Anonymous]

Not the poster you are questioning but I think many people around the world believe it is a right.

[Anonymous]

I propose that everyone against this law start voluntarily 'self-taxing' and send money to the state of AZ to support social services and hospitals. It's funny to say that one can be FOR the law as it doesn't affect anyone up here. How about it's EASY to be against the law since you are not paying for these services or worried about chance encounters on your ranch etc. with desperate people who may or may not be hostile.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To all those who don't want to be burdened by a heavy passport, they have new fangled ones (in Europe) the size of a credit card. So yes Jeff, some day you will be able to carry it while jogging.

Actually, the USA has passport cards now - they are used for folks who routinely cross the northern (Canadian) and southern (Mexician) borders all the time. Employees, business travelers, truck drivers, etc. There is a price - about $100 if I recall.