What is the real reason MCPS uses Lottery for Middle School Magnet Program

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s really a bummer they can just do leveled classrooms anymore. Then kids stay in their homeschools and get enriched instruction there. Sorting by ability is out though, sadly. It’s a mess.

Our ES essentially does this because of compacted math and ELC. There are some kids in the one and not the other, but mostly it's a cohort. And at the lower levels they do group kids of similar performance levels into classroom clusters so that they can small-group or enrich together. Parents at our ES often actually tend to turn down CES invitations because so many things (to be clear, not all) from the CES curriculum are already going on inside our regular school. Our admin also works at all levels (including the littles) to identify kids who are good candidates for enrichment or faster study and to meet their needs.

I bring this up because I think it is a good middle course between a not-feasible massive size expansion of the CES programs and the near impossibility of conducting a completely fair and constructive assessment of students from a wide variety of personal circumstances. It requires, however, a really strong leadership team that is constantly re-inventing how to best serve the families. How we do things at our school changes in big and little ways pretty much every year.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:They don’t want to get sued.

They do not want to get sued for what? Is this a relavent post?

Yes, it is. They want to avoid the legal problems of TJ and Harvard. I recall there also was similar legal action against TPMS the first year they changed the criteria.

I wonder what happened to those lawsuits. But MCPS is going equity over excellence route.

Really confusion though. Are they doing televised lottery or someone in the basement decide

Huh? Translation, please. Into English, please.

troll alert

This thread was started as a trolling effort.

Every week or so. Same person(s)? Same strawman arguements... lotteries for sports, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Define qualified...if you want to have a program for the top students, there is always a group at the top.

This is the fundamental misunderstanding of the CES program. It is not supposed to be for the "top students" in the school system. It was designed to meet the academic needs of students whose needs couldn't be met in their home elementary school. This really doesn't mean the top academic performers, it means students who learn differently, at a faster pace than their peers, and who thrive on independence and complex thinking. As more and more students over the years demonstrated they would benefit from the enriched curriculum, they began offering that curriculum at home schools, rather than shipping an entire class of 4th graders to a different school.

If parents stopped treating the CES as a coveted prize to be won by a select few students, and instead focused on advocating for better enriched curriculum (and GT trained teachers) at their school, everyone would be better off.

+1 If most students are at a more accelerated pace, the teacher can go through the curriculum quicker. But if it's like at my DC's school where she's one of a tiny group of more advanced students, so that the teacher has to go at a slower pace, it makes more sense that tiny group of students who are not being challenged at all to get sent to an accelerated program.

Also, the lottery is in place in part because demand far exceeds supply, and opens up the program to students whose parents or guardians are not as much "in the know." Diversity benefits the accelerated program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Too many Asian and white kids. Not “enough” black and Latino kids who can match Asian/white kids performance

Exactly:

https://bethesdamagazine.com/bethesda-beat/schools/mcps-files-to-dismiss-magnet-admissions-lawsuit/

MCPS didn't like the outcome of the existing process, so they changed it to a lottery to achieve an outcome they wanted.

+1 The lottery was to ensure MCPS could weasel out of pending lawsuits. I believe they were caught tampering with the admissions criteria of the 2020 class, which helped motivate moving towards a lottery system. Can't claim its discrimination if it's a completely random selection.

Based on the article, it looks like Montgomery county schools are not the place for highly talented anymore. I wonder why enrollments in MCPS schools are down this year. I guess people are going private schools. May be time to move to Virginia and pay our taxes there

Don't let the door hit you on the way out! Oh, and it really wouldn't hurt you to improve your grammar.

MCPS never disclose how they select the students for the lotttery. The criteria is a moving target, depending on your skin color and where you live. MCPD said there is a national rank and there is a adjusted MCPS rank. For. A student who ranked at 90% nationally, he or she could be a 75% students or a 99% student. Some students who ranked at 75% nationally could be in the pool for lottery but others in 97% may not be selected for the pool.

Well since it's a lottery there's really nothing to disclose. It was the pool selection that isn't so clear but it involved the 85%.. DD who is at TPMS and was selected says there are plenty of kids this year who got in with MAP-M scores in the 230s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They don’t want to get sued.

They do not want to get sued for what? Is this a relavent post?

Yes, it is. They want to avoid the legal problems of TJ and Harvard. I recall there also was similar legal action against TPMS the first year they changed the criteria.

I wonder what happened to those lawsuits. But MCPS is going equity over excellence route.

Really confusion though. Are they doing televised lottery or someone in the basement decide

Huh? Translation, please. Into English, please.

troll alert

This thread was started as a trolling effort.

Every week or so. Same person(s)? Same strawman arguements... lotteries for sports, etc.

And every week the same thing all over...

[Anonymous]

Any MCPS kid that can perform anywhere near the top X% ~WITHOUT good parenting at home~ should absolutely be allowed into the magnets.

Not everyone supplements with those CoGAT prep schools. Not everyone has parents home on the weekends or even evenings. There are MANY kids going home and feeding themselves and taking care of their schoolwork while their parent(s) work(s) until 9PM or later.

When those kids can get anywhere near succeeding then MCPS should be celebrated for at least putting their names in the lottery hat

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s really a bummer they can just do leveled classrooms anymore. Then kids stay in their homeschools and get enriched instruction there. Sorting by ability is out though, sadly. It’s a mess.

Our ES essentially does this because of compacted math and ELC. There are some kids in the one and not the other, but mostly it's a cohort. And at the lower levels they do group kids of similar performance levels into classroom clusters so that they can small-group or enrich together. Parents at our ES often actually tend to turn down CES invitations because so many things (to be clear, not all) from the CES curriculum are already going on inside our regular school. Our admin also works at all levels (including the littles) to identify kids who are good candidates for enrichment or faster study and to meet their needs.

I bring this up because I think it is a good middle course between a not-feasible massive size expansion of the CES programs and the near impossibility of conducting a completely fair and constructive assessment of students from a wide variety of personal circumstances. It requires, however, a really strong leadership team that is constantly re-inventing how to best serve the families. How we do things at our school changes in big and little ways pretty much every year.

Agree that it takes good leadership. Would you be willing to share which ES you're at? Sounds ideal...

[Anonymous]

But I thought ‘all the schools are great’ was the clarion call in MoCo. I am truly gobsmacked this isn’t true...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Any MCPS kid that can perform anywhere near the top X% ~WITHOUT good parenting at home~ should absolutely be allowed into the magnets.

Not everyone supplements with those CoGAT prep schools. Not everyone has parents home on the weekends or even evenings. There are MANY kids going home and feeding themselves and taking care of their schoolwork while their parent(s) work(s) until 9PM or later.

When those kids can get anywhere near succeeding then MCPS should be celebrated for at least putting their names in the lottery hat

I saw on the AAP board that 30% of TJ's class came from just one of the many local cram schools so have to believe it's about the same here. This suggests that over half of the students being admitted to these programs had an edge over those who did not invest in prep.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But I thought ‘all the schools are great’ was the clarion call in MoCo. I am truly gobsmacked this isn’t true...

Everyone knows there are "good" schools and "bad" schools. Just ask any W parent why they paid 200k for a home in boundary for a W.

[Anonymous]

Exactly. That's why lottery for all students who place at least in the 85% (or whatever the %ile is) is so nice. The students that are able to accomplish this without so much parent/guardian help are probably better qualified than those who did all that prepping.

[Anonymous]

DCUM is so nice right now without all the trolls.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DCUM is so nice right now without all the trolls.

We have at least 4 right now. Maybe I'm missing one.

1) lottery troll
2) restorative justice troll
3) SRO troll
4) anti-vax anti-mask troll

Items 2, 3, 4 are just crazy-town. Not really thrilled about the lottery but it's also not the end of the world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s really a bummer they can just do leveled classrooms anymore. Then kids stay in their homeschools and get enriched instruction there. Sorting by ability is out though, sadly. It’s a mess.

Our ES essentially does this because of compacted math and ELC. There are some kids in the one and not the other, but mostly it's a cohort. And at the lower levels they do group kids of similar performance levels into classroom clusters so that they can small-group or enrich together. Parents at our ES often actually tend to turn down CES invitations because so many things (to be clear, not all) from the CES curriculum are already going on inside our regular school. Our admin also works at all levels (including the littles) to identify kids who are good candidates for enrichment or faster study and to meet their needs.

I bring this up because I think it is a good middle course between a not-feasible massive size expansion of the CES programs and the near impossibility of conducting a completely fair and constructive assessment of students from a wide variety of personal circumstances. It requires, however, a really strong leadership team that is constantly re-inventing how to best serve the families. How we do things at our school changes in big and little ways pretty much every year.

This sounds like our ES.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Define qualified...if you want to have a program for the top students, there is always a group at the top.

This is the fundamental misunderstanding of the CES program. It is not supposed to be for the "top students" in the school system. It was designed to meet the academic needs of students whose needs couldn't be met in their home elementary school. This really doesn't mean the top academic performers, it means students who learn differently, at a faster pace than their peers, and who thrive on independence and complex thinking. As more and more students over the years demonstrated they would benefit from the enriched curriculum, they began offering that curriculum at home schools, rather than shipping an entire class of 4th graders to a different school.

If parents stopped treating the CES as a coveted prize to be won by a select few students, and instead focused on advocating for better enriched curriculum (and GT trained teachers) at their school, everyone would be better off.

+1 If most students are at a more accelerated pace, the teacher can go through the curriculum quicker. But if it's like at my DC's school where she's one of a tiny group of more advanced students, so that the teacher has to go at a slower pace, it makes more sense that tiny group of students who are not being challenged at all to get sent to an accelerated program.

Also, the lottery is in place in part because demand far exceeds supply, and opens up the program to students whose parents or guardians are not as much "in the know." Diversity benefits the accelerated program.

+1 CES is supposed to provide equity of a peer group to match the learning of certain students for whom a large enough peer group isnt present im their school. Many schools have the appropriate peer group and so only need to implement curriculum changes and ensure teachers are training in gifted teaching/learning. Heck these teachers should be given additional leeway to craft the teaching for their year as the students already demonstrate a capacity to learn not just at the standard level.