What is the real reason MCPS uses Lottery for Middle School Magnet Program

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This region has astronomically more qualified kids than seats.

Not quite.

MCPS deliberately chose to limit the size and scope of the Magnet program. They could very easily designate more CES classrooms at local schools, use that additional capacity to offload the 97% percentile and under, then use the Magnet slots for those that are truly 98-99th as pull-outs.

The question you should be asking is why they didn't do that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Too many Asian and white kids. Not “enough” black and Latino kids who can match Asian/white kids performance

Exactly:

https://bethesdamagazine.com/bethesda-beat/schools/mcps-files-to-dismiss-magnet-admissions-lawsuit/

MCPS didn't like the outcome of the existing process, so they changed it to a lottery to achieve an outcome they wanted.

So the outcome that MCPS wants, is not academic excellence?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This region has astronomically more qualified kids than seats.

Not quite.

MCPS deliberately chose to limit the size and scope of the Magnet program. They could very easily designate more CES classrooms at local schools, use that additional capacity to offload the 97% percentile and under, then use the Magnet slots for those that are truly 98-99th as pull-outs.

The question you should be asking is why they didn't do that.

I couldn't agree more. Still wonder why BOE did not do that and this goes to BOE competence

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They don’t want to get sued.

They do not want to get sued for what? Is this a relavent post?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Too many Asian and white kids. Not “enough” black and Latino kids who can match Asian/white kids performance

Exactly:

https://bethesdamagazine.com/bethesda-beat/schools/mcps-files-to-dismiss-magnet-admissions-lawsuit/

MCPS didn't like the outcome of the existing process, so they changed it to a lottery to achieve an outcome they wanted.

+1 The lottery was to ensure MCPS could weasel out of pending lawsuits. I believe they were caught tampering with the admissions criteria of the 2020 class, which helped motivate moving towards a lottery system. Can't claim its discrimination if it's a completely random selection.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know what is the real reason MCPS BOE uses lottery for CES program?
Why can't it be the consistency of performance against benchmarks in elementary school? and/or likewise consistency of performance in middle school for highschool magnet program

Are they using Lottery for selection into sports and games teams as well instead of performance benchmarks? or is the lottery exclusive for academic programs?

I agree with you. If academic programs are lotteries. Why can't other competitive programs (like sports teams, student government positions, etc.) be lotteries. My kid didn't make the basketball team and is pretty down about it. In his opinion half the kids they took were a lot better than him. The other half were only marginally better, and he thought that if he had a week or so for the coach to see him play, that the coach would have picked him over at least 2 of the guys. Might as well move everything in mcps to a lottery since we are only concerned about equity.

[Anonymous]

So if Asians, Whites, Blacks and Latino kids performance is at par, are you saying that MCPS had a racist policy of selecting Asians and Whites kids over Blacks and Latino kids? Can you site any evidence of this?

MCPS is now on its third iteration of magnet admissions in my kids' time in the system and the first iteration (two iterations ago) really was pretty biased. It included a lot of elements that have been demonstrated to have racial or SES bias, including:

1) The MS admissions test was offered on a Saturday at only a select number of schools, so if your parents worked or were otherwise unavailable to drive you, too bad.

2) As might be suggested by #1, the test was not universal. You had to either be referred or opt in. This was a system that dramatically favored people who were "in the know" as well as those with extra time to track school goings on

3) Teacher recommendations are demonstrably problematic. At the ES level, most teachers are white women, and data shows that white women are terrible at identifying gifted kids of color. The things they are looking for (compliance, extroversion) are not present in ALL gifted kids

4) At-home essays were being written/heavily edited by parents, which gave a HUGE advantage to kids whose parents were highly educated native or near-native English speakers

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Define qualified...if you want to have a program for the top students, there is always a group at the top.

How to measure accurately, though? There's no "best" measure. Some kids test better. Some write better. Some speak better.

Didn't you just measure them by stating that "some write better, some speak and some tests better? Why can't MCPS do the same?

If you can't take them all, which do you leave out? The test-taker, the writer, or the speaker? Some parent will cry "foul!"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Too many Asian and white kids. Not “enough” black and Latino kids who can match Asian/white kids performance

Exactly:

https://bethesdamagazine.com/bethesda-beat/schools/mcps-files-to-dismiss-magnet-admissions-lawsuit/

MCPS didn't like the outcome of the existing process, so they changed it to a lottery to achieve an outcome they wanted.

+1 The lottery was to ensure MCPS could weasel out of pending lawsuits. I believe they were caught tampering with the admissions criteria of the 2020 class, which helped motivate moving towards a lottery system. Can't claim its discrimination if it's a completely random selection.

Based on the article, it looks like Montgomery county schools are not the place for highly talented anymore. I wonder why enrollments in MCPS schools are down this year. I guess people are going private schools. May be time to move to Virginia and pay our taxes there

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know what is the real reason MCPS BOE uses lottery for CES program?
Why can't it be the consistency of performance against benchmarks in elementary school? and/or likewise consistency of performance in middle school for highschool magnet program

Are they using Lottery for selection into sports and games teams as well instead of performance benchmarks? or is the lottery exclusive for academic programs?

I agree with you. If academic programs are lotteries. Why can't other competitive programs (like sports teams, student government positions, etc.) be lotteries. My kid didn't make the basketball team and is pretty down about it. In his opinion half the kids they took were a lot better than him. The other half were only marginally better, and he thought that if he had a week or so for the coach to see him play, that the coach would have picked him over at least 2 of the guys. Might as well move everything in mcps to a lottery since we are only concerned about equity.

I guess people will have to vote the BOE members out in the next opportunity

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

So if Asians, Whites, Blacks and Latino kids performance is at par, are you saying that MCPS had a racist policy of selecting Asians and Whites kids over Blacks and Latino kids? Can you site any evidence of this?

MCPS is now on its third iteration of magnet admissions in my kids' time in the system and the first iteration (two iterations ago) really was pretty biased. It included a lot of elements that have been demonstrated to have racial or SES bias, including:

1) The MS admissions test was offered on a Saturday at only a select number of schools, so if your parents worked or were otherwise unavailable to drive you, too bad.

2) As might be suggested by #1, the test was not universal. You had to either be referred or opt in. This was a system that dramatically favored people who were "in the know" as well as those with extra time to track school goings on

3) Teacher recommendations are demonstrably problematic. At the ES level, most teachers are white women, and data shows that white women are terrible at identifying gifted kids of color. The things they are looking for (compliance, extroversion) are not present in ALL gifted kids

4) At-home essays were being written/heavily edited by parents, which gave a HUGE advantage to kids whose parents were highly educated native or near-native English speakers

The issues you sited are logistic in nature. I do not think that the admission was based on one test.. consistent academic performance matter. Your 2nd point is just a speculation at the best and we can ignore that. I do not believe Teacher recommendations are problemetic as they are based on the observations backed by the grades and test scores. I do understand that some who did not get recomendation might think otherwise. It looks like your 4th point is also a speculation at best.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

So if Asians, Whites, Blacks and Latino kids performance is at par, are you saying that MCPS had a racist policy of selecting Asians and Whites kids over Blacks and Latino kids? Can you site any evidence of this?

MCPS is now on its third iteration of magnet admissions in my kids' time in the system and the first iteration (two iterations ago) really was pretty biased. It included a lot of elements that have been demonstrated to have racial or SES bias, including:

1) The MS admissions test was offered on a Saturday at only a select number of schools, so if your parents worked or were otherwise unavailable to drive you, too bad.

2) As might be suggested by #1, the test was not universal. You had to either be referred or opt in. This was a system that dramatically favored people who were "in the know" as well as those with extra time to track school goings on

3) Teacher recommendations are demonstrably problematic. At the ES level, most teachers are white women, and data shows that white women are terrible at identifying gifted kids of color. The things they are looking for (compliance, extroversion) are not present in ALL gifted kids

4) At-home essays were being written/heavily edited by parents, which gave a HUGE advantage to kids whose parents were highly educated native or near-native English speakers

So you want lottery as a solution to these problems you sited? Can you think of any other way to resolve these issues so that they can be addressed appropriately? a better way than a lottery?
Will you say the same about the sports and games team? Do you support MCPS to do a lottery for sports and games?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know what is the real reason MCPS BOE uses lottery for CES program?
Why can't it be the consistency of performance against benchmarks in elementary school? and/or likewise consistency of performance in middle school for highschool magnet program

Are they using Lottery for selection into sports and games teams as well instead of performance benchmarks? or is the lottery exclusive for academic programs?

I agree with you. If academic programs are lotteries. Why can't other competitive programs (like sports teams, student government positions, etc.) be lotteries. My kid didn't make the basketball team and is pretty down about it. In his opinion half the kids they took were a lot better than him. The other half were only marginally better, and he thought that if he had a week or so for the coach to see him play, that the coach would have picked him over at least 2 of the guys. Might as well move everything in mcps to a lottery since we are only concerned about equity.

I agree too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

So if Asians, Whites, Blacks and Latino kids performance is at par, are you saying that MCPS had a racist policy of selecting Asians and Whites kids over Blacks and Latino kids? Can you site any evidence of this?

MCPS is now on its third iteration of magnet admissions in my kids' time in the system and the first iteration (two iterations ago) really was pretty biased. It included a lot of elements that have been demonstrated to have racial or SES bias, including:

1) The MS admissions test was offered on a Saturday at only a select number of schools, so if your parents worked or were otherwise unavailable to drive you, too bad.

2) As might be suggested by #1, the test was not universal. You had to either be referred or opt in. This was a system that dramatically favored people who were "in the know" as well as those with extra time to track school goings on

3) Teacher recommendations are demonstrably problematic. At the ES level, most teachers are white women, and data shows that white women are terrible at identifying gifted kids of color. The things they are looking for (compliance, extroversion) are not present in ALL gifted kids

4) At-home essays were being written/heavily edited by parents, which gave a HUGE advantage to kids whose parents were highly educated native or near-native English speakers

So you want lottery as a solution to these problems you sited? Can you think of any other way to resolve these issues so that they can be addressed appropriately? a better way than a lottery?
Will you say the same about the sports and games team? Do you support MCPS to do a lottery for sports and games?

Many of the issues I cited were addressed in the admissions reforms that happened about four years ago. They scrapped the teacher recommendations (biased) and the at home essays (rigged). They conducted universal screening for most 5th graders and conducted those screenings in the home schools during school hours, rather than having kids come into testing sites on a Saturday.

My biggest question is why MCPS moved so quickly away from that system, which actually addressed many of the problems with the earlier iteration.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

So if Asians, Whites, Blacks and Latino kids performance is at par, are you saying that MCPS had a racist policy of selecting Asians and Whites kids over Blacks and Latino kids? Can you site any evidence of this?

MCPS is now on its third iteration of magnet admissions in my kids' time in the system and the first iteration (two iterations ago) really was pretty biased. It included a lot of elements that have been demonstrated to have racial or SES bias, including:

1) The MS admissions test was offered on a Saturday at only a select number of schools, so if your parents worked or were otherwise unavailable to drive you, too bad.

2) As might be suggested by #1, the test was not universal. You had to either be referred or opt in. This was a system that dramatically favored people who were "in the know" as well as those with extra time to track school goings on

3) Teacher recommendations are demonstrably problematic. At the ES level, most teachers are white women, and data shows that white women are terrible at identifying gifted kids of color. The things they are looking for (compliance, extroversion) are not present in ALL gifted kids

4) At-home essays were being written/heavily edited by parents, which gave a HUGE advantage to kids whose parents were highly educated native or near-native English speakers

-
Which era are you living in? Your point number 1 - To achieve this end, MCPS initiated parent workshops to increase awareness of the programs, expanded student practice sessions for the magnet entrance exams, and provided transportation on test day.

This will be a good read for you. https://casetext.com/case/assn-for-educ-fairness-v-montgomery-cnty-bd-of-educ

It looks more and more like equity over excellence. I wonder what impact will this have on the county. May be lottery for sports and games, BOE, political positions