TJ Discrimination Case

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Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol

There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...

It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.

Actually, the new system is easier to game.

Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.

Where did you buy your answers?

The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL

Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.

The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.

Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.

+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.

No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.

If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.

Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.

It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.

It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.

How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?

I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.

That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.

This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.

Makes them smart!

Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.

Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?

The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.

Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.

So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?

Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?

Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.

The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.

But there is a plausible simple explanation - if you know you have no chance of getting in you choose not to apply. If you are mediocre at violin or something, you don't opt to try out for an elite string group. The same thing may have happened at TJ. We do not know. On this board, I have heard many times that white students stopped applying because they did not like the "toxic" culture of TJ produced by an 80% Asian student body. Still not sure what the definition of "toxic" is in that statement.

NP, but I'll take a stab since you seem to be struggling with basics... perhaps an unhealthy degree of competition amongst students within the school that undermined the academic environment... not to say that students couldn't still achieve and learn, but did so in a manner that was unnecessarily poisonous to mental health for too large of a proportion of the student body.

Anything at the top level is hyper-competitive, Olympic level competitions, NFL, NBA, World Cup. Nature of the game. if you can't stand the heat, Get out the kitchen.

Recent data indicates that success in youth sports has more to do with money spent than actual talent, which indicates that it's just like academics.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/12/12/youth-sports-rising-costs/

Then, why do posters only attack academics? Academics is more important than sports. Hypocrites.

Not sure there's anything to attack here. It's more of a statement of fact and as to importance that's subjective.

I guess it might have something to do with that academic opportunities should be open to all residents not just those who spend the most money. With sports, personally, I personally believe that is of any value, but yes if public money is supporting that nonsense by all means the playing field should be leveled. Nevertheless, the best outcome in my opinion would be that public dollars were spent on education not sports that cater mainly to a small group of enthusiats.

Sport teams are funded by taxpayers' money so they should reflect the demographics of the county. Fairfax county has almost 20% Asian students so all sport teams must include 20% players!

Taxpayers dont pay for sports - sports boosters and concession sales and coupon sales and mulch sales pay for sports

Exactly why sports aren't equivalent to academic opportunities offered by a public school system. The latter should be accessible to all residents, not just those who spend thousands on outside enrichment. Sports on the other hand are irrelevant. I don't even care about that and am not even sure why they are not completely separate form school.

The Federal government has deemed athletics an integral part of an institution's education program, and thereby protects athletes from discrimination under laws such as Title IX. We need proper representation of Asian athletes in collegiate athletics to promote diversity and equity.

Title IX doesn't mention sports.

Title IX is very much a part of college athletics.

https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/interath.html
https://www.si.com/college/2022/05/19/title-ix-50th-anniversary-womens-sports-impact-daily-cover

In most cases it manifests as a requirement that the budgets for men’s sports be equal to the budgets for women’s sports. Athletic departments bend over backwards to accommodate it.

Something similar can be made for Asians, such as require all basketball teams reserve at least one scholarship for an Asian student athlete.

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Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol

There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...

It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.

Actually, the new system is easier to game.

Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.

Where did you buy your answers?

The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL

Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.

The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.

Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.

+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.

No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.

If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.

Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.

It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.

It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.

How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?

I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.

That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.

This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.

Makes them smart!

Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.

Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?

The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.

Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.

So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?

Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?

Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.

The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.

But there is a plausible simple explanation - if you know you have no chance of getting in you choose not to apply. If you are mediocre at violin or something, you don't opt to try out for an elite string group. The same thing may have happened at TJ. We do not know. On this board, I have heard many times that white students stopped applying because they did not like the "toxic" culture of TJ produced by an 80% Asian student body. Still not sure what the definition of "toxic" is in that statement.

NP, but I'll take a stab since you seem to be struggling with basics... perhaps an unhealthy degree of competition amongst students within the school that undermined the academic environment... not to say that students couldn't still achieve and learn, but did so in a manner that was unnecessarily poisonous to mental health for too large of a proportion of the student body.

Anything at the top level is hyper-competitive, Olympic level competitions, NFL, NBA, World Cup. Nature of the game. if you can't stand the heat, Get out the kitchen.

Recent data indicates that success in youth sports has more to do with money spent than actual talent, which indicates that it's just like academics.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/12/12/youth-sports-rising-costs/

Then, why do posters only attack academics? Academics is more important than sports. Hypocrites.

Not sure there's anything to attack here. It's more of a statement of fact and as to importance that's subjective.

I guess it might have something to do with that academic opportunities should be open to all residents not just those who spend the most money. With sports, personally, I personally believe that is of any value, but yes if public money is supporting that nonsense by all means the playing field should be leveled. Nevertheless, the best outcome in my opinion would be that public dollars were spent on education not sports that cater mainly to a small group of enthusiats.

Sport teams are funded by taxpayers' money so they should reflect the demographics of the county. Fairfax county has almost 20% Asian students so all sport teams must include 20% players!

Taxpayers dont pay for sports - sports boosters and concession sales and coupon sales and mulch sales pay for sports

Exactly why sports aren't equivalent to academic opportunities offered by a public school system. The latter should be accessible to all residents, not just those who spend thousands on outside enrichment. Sports on the other hand are irrelevant. I don't even care about that and am not even sure why they are not completely separate form school.

The Federal government has deemed athletics an integral part of an institution's education program, and thereby protects athletes from discrimination under laws such as Title IX. We need proper representation of Asian athletes in collegiate athletics to promote diversity and equity.

Title IX doesn't mention sports.

Title IX is very much a part of college athletics.

https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/interath.html
https://www.si.com/college/2022/05/19/title-ix-50th-anniversary-womens-sports-impact-daily-cover

In most cases it manifests as a requirement that the budgets for men’s sports be equal to the budgets for women’s sports. Athletic departments bend over backwards to accommodate it.

Something similar can be made for Asians, such as require all basketball teams reserve at least one scholarship for an Asian student athlete.

College athletics isn't equivalent to public education. There is a big difference between a private institution and a public schools. The later are supposed to be open to everyone. The former often favor multimillion dollar donors and legacies. They have never been fair.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol

There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...

It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.

Actually, the new system is easier to game.

Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.

Where did you buy your answers?

The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL

Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.

The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.

Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.

+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.

No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.

If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.

Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.

It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.

It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.

How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?

I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.

That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.

This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.

Makes them smart!

Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.

Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?

The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.

Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.

So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?

Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?

Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.

The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.

But there is a plausible simple explanation - if you know you have no chance of getting in you choose not to apply. If you are mediocre at violin or something, you don't opt to try out for an elite string group. The same thing may have happened at TJ. We do not know. On this board, I have heard many times that white students stopped applying because they did not like the "toxic" culture of TJ produced by an 80% Asian student body. Still not sure what the definition of "toxic" is in that statement.

NP, but I'll take a stab since you seem to be struggling with basics... perhaps an unhealthy degree of competition amongst students within the school that undermined the academic environment... not to say that students couldn't still achieve and learn, but did so in a manner that was unnecessarily poisonous to mental health for too large of a proportion of the student body.

Anything at the top level is hyper-competitive, Olympic level competitions, NFL, NBA, World Cup. Nature of the game. if you can't stand the heat, Get out the kitchen.

Recent data indicates that success in youth sports has more to do with money spent than actual talent, which indicates that it's just like academics.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/12/12/youth-sports-rising-costs/

Then, why do posters only attack academics? Academics is more important than sports. Hypocrites.

Not sure there's anything to attack here. It's more of a statement of fact and as to importance that's subjective.

I guess it might have something to do with that academic opportunities should be open to all residents not just those who spend the most money. With sports, personally, I personally believe that is of any value, but yes if public money is supporting that nonsense by all means the playing field should be leveled. Nevertheless, the best outcome in my opinion would be that public dollars were spent on education not sports that cater mainly to a small group of enthusiats.

Sport teams are funded by taxpayers' money so they should reflect the demographics of the county. Fairfax county has almost 20% Asian students so all sport teams must include 20% players!

Taxpayers dont pay for sports - sports boosters and concession sales and coupon sales and mulch sales pay for sports

Exactly why sports aren't equivalent to academic opportunities offered by a public school system. The latter should be accessible to all residents, not just those who spend thousands on outside enrichment. Sports on the other hand are irrelevant. I don't even care about that and am not even sure why they are not completely separate form school.

The Federal government has deemed athletics an integral part of an institution's education program, and thereby protects athletes from discrimination under laws such as Title IX. We need proper representation of Asian athletes in collegiate athletics to promote diversity and equity.

Title IX doesn't mention sports.

Title IX is very much a part of college athletics.

https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/interath.html
https://www.si.com/college/2022/05/19/title-ix-50th-anniversary-womens-sports-impact-daily-cover

In most cases it manifests as a requirement that the budgets for men’s sports be equal to the budgets for women’s sports. Athletic departments bend over backwards to accommodate it.

Something similar can be made for Asians, such as require all basketball teams reserve at least one scholarship for an Asian student athlete.

It's not possible to have the same budget for mens and womens sports. The amount spent on college basketball and football is huge, and for many colleges is now a major revenue source. SEC Network and Big Ten network have close to a billion dollars a year in TV contracts, getting a few dollars a month per cable subscriber in every state they have a school.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol

There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...

It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.

Actually, the new system is easier to game.

Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.

Where did you buy your answers?

The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL

Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.

The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.

Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.

+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.

No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.

If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.

Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.

It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.

It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.

How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?

I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.

That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.

This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.

Makes them smart!

Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.

Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?

The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.

Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.

So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?

Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?

Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.

The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.

But there is a plausible simple explanation - if you know you have no chance of getting in you choose not to apply. If you are mediocre at violin or something, you don't opt to try out for an elite string group. The same thing may have happened at TJ. We do not know. On this board, I have heard many times that white students stopped applying because they did not like the "toxic" culture of TJ produced by an 80% Asian student body. Still not sure what the definition of "toxic" is in that statement.

NP, but I'll take a stab since you seem to be struggling with basics... perhaps an unhealthy degree of competition amongst students within the school that undermined the academic environment... not to say that students couldn't still achieve and learn, but did so in a manner that was unnecessarily poisonous to mental health for too large of a proportion of the student body.

Anything at the top level is hyper-competitive, Olympic level competitions, NFL, NBA, World Cup. Nature of the game. if you can't stand the heat, Get out the kitchen.

Recent data indicates that success in youth sports has more to do with money spent than actual talent, which indicates that it's just like academics.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/12/12/youth-sports-rising-costs/

Then, why do posters only attack academics? Academics is more important than sports. Hypocrites.

Not sure there's anything to attack here. It's more of a statement of fact and as to importance that's subjective.

I guess it might have something to do with that academic opportunities should be open to all residents not just those who spend the most money. With sports, personally, I personally believe that is of any value, but yes if public money is supporting that nonsense by all means the playing field should be leveled. Nevertheless, the best outcome in my opinion would be that public dollars were spent on education not sports that cater mainly to a small group of enthusiats.

Sport teams are funded by taxpayers' money so they should reflect the demographics of the county. Fairfax county has almost 20% Asian students so all sport teams must include 20% players!

A better solution might be to stop funding the sports teams and use the surplus to give everyone free enrichment.

No EQUITY demands that Asians make up 20% of ALL sport teams in all public schools in fcps! All students benefit by being exposed to different races, groups and perspectives!

I really don't know why people roll their eyes at this. Why aren't there consultants to come look at why APA students are not included on sports teams and why that is?

Proper representation for Asians on sport teams! Equity and diversity demand this unjust hoarding stop!

Many studies have shown the benefits of having students exposed to different racial and ethnic groups and leads to better experience for all involved. Do not exclude Asian students from sport teams but include them and embrace diversity!

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol

There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...

It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.

Actually, the new system is easier to game.

Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.

Where did you buy your answers?

The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL

Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.

The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.

Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.

+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.

No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.

If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.

Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.

It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.

It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.

How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?

I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.

That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.

This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.

Makes them smart!

Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.

Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?

The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.

Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.

So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?

Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?

Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.

The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.

But there is a plausible simple explanation - if you know you have no chance of getting in you choose not to apply. If you are mediocre at violin or something, you don't opt to try out for an elite string group. The same thing may have happened at TJ. We do not know. On this board, I have heard many times that white students stopped applying because they did not like the "toxic" culture of TJ produced by an 80% Asian student body. Still not sure what the definition of "toxic" is in that statement.

NP, but I'll take a stab since you seem to be struggling with basics... perhaps an unhealthy degree of competition amongst students within the school that undermined the academic environment... not to say that students couldn't still achieve and learn, but did so in a manner that was unnecessarily poisonous to mental health for too large of a proportion of the student body.

Anything at the top level is hyper-competitive, Olympic level competitions, NFL, NBA, World Cup. Nature of the game. if you can't stand the heat, Get out the kitchen.

Recent data indicates that success in youth sports has more to do with money spent than actual talent, which indicates that it's just like academics.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/12/12/youth-sports-rising-costs/

Then, why do posters only attack academics? Academics is more important than sports. Hypocrites.

Not sure there's anything to attack here. It's more of a statement of fact and as to importance that's subjective.

I guess it might have something to do with that academic opportunities should be open to all residents not just those who spend the most money. With sports, personally, I personally believe that is of any value, but yes if public money is supporting that nonsense by all means the playing field should be leveled. Nevertheless, the best outcome in my opinion would be that public dollars were spent on education not sports that cater mainly to a small group of enthusiats.

Sport teams are funded by taxpayers' money so they should reflect the demographics of the county. Fairfax county has almost 20% Asian students so all sport teams must include 20% players!

A better solution might be to stop funding the sports teams and use the surplus to give everyone free enrichment.

No EQUITY demands that Asians make up 20% of ALL sport teams in all public schools in fcps! All students benefit by being exposed to different races, groups and perspectives!

I really don't know why people roll their eyes at this. Why aren't there consultants to come look at why APA students are not included on sports teams and why that is?

Proper representation for Asians on sport teams! Equity and diversity demand this unjust hoarding stop!

Many studies have shown the benefits of having students exposed to different racial and ethnic groups and leads to better experience for all involved. Do not exclude Asian students from sport teams but include them and embrace diversity!

+1

This is exactly why TJ needs more diversity! The old system was so easily gamed by those with resources that it became homogenous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol

There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...

It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.

Actually, the new system is easier to game.

Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.

Where did you buy your answers?

The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL

Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.

The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.

Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.

+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.

No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.

If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.

Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.

It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.

It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.

How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?

I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.

That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.

This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.

Makes them smart!

Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.

Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?

The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.

Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.

So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?

Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?

Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.

The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.

But there is a plausible simple explanation - if you know you have no chance of getting in you choose not to apply. If you are mediocre at violin or something, you don't opt to try out for an elite string group. The same thing may have happened at TJ. We do not know. On this board, I have heard many times that white students stopped applying because they did not like the "toxic" culture of TJ produced by an 80% Asian student body. Still not sure what the definition of "toxic" is in that statement.

NP, but I'll take a stab since you seem to be struggling with basics... perhaps an unhealthy degree of competition amongst students within the school that undermined the academic environment... not to say that students couldn't still achieve and learn, but did so in a manner that was unnecessarily poisonous to mental health for too large of a proportion of the student body.

Anything at the top level is hyper-competitive, Olympic level competitions, NFL, NBA, World Cup. Nature of the game. if you can't stand the heat, Get out the kitchen.

Recent data indicates that success in youth sports has more to do with money spent than actual talent, which indicates that it's just like academics.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/12/12/youth-sports-rising-costs/

Then, why do posters only attack academics? Academics is more important than sports. Hypocrites.

Not sure there's anything to attack here. It's more of a statement of fact and as to importance that's subjective.

I guess it might have something to do with that academic opportunities should be open to all residents not just those who spend the most money. With sports, personally, I personally believe that is of any value, but yes if public money is supporting that nonsense by all means the playing field should be leveled. Nevertheless, the best outcome in my opinion would be that public dollars were spent on education not sports that cater mainly to a small group of enthusiats.

Sport teams are funded by taxpayers' money so they should reflect the demographics of the county. Fairfax county has almost 20% Asian students so all sport teams must include 20% players!

A better solution might be to stop funding the sports teams and use the surplus to give everyone free enrichment.

No EQUITY demands that Asians make up 20% of ALL sport teams in all public schools in fcps! All students benefit by being exposed to different races, groups and perspectives!

I really don't know why people roll their eyes at this. Why aren't there consultants to come look at why APA students are not included on sports teams and why that is?

Proper representation for Asians on sport teams! Equity and diversity demand this unjust hoarding stop!

Many studies have shown the benefits of having students exposed to different racial and ethnic groups and leads to better experience for all involved. Do not exclude Asian students from sport teams but include them and embrace diversity!

+1

This is exactly why TJ needs more diversity! The old system was so easily gamed by those with resources that it became homogenous.

TJ was the most diverse public school in the county before the admission system was changed to let in unqualified kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol

There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...

It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.

Actually, the new system is easier to game.

Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.

Where did you buy your answers?

The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL

Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.

The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.

Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.

+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.

No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.

If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.

Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.

It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.

It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.

How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?

I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.

That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.

This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.

Makes them smart!

Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.

Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?

The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.

Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.

So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?

Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?

Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.

The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.

But there is a plausible simple explanation - if you know you have no chance of getting in you choose not to apply. If you are mediocre at violin or something, you don't opt to try out for an elite string group. The same thing may have happened at TJ. We do not know. On this board, I have heard many times that white students stopped applying because they did not like the "toxic" culture of TJ produced by an 80% Asian student body. Still not sure what the definition of "toxic" is in that statement.

NP, but I'll take a stab since you seem to be struggling with basics... perhaps an unhealthy degree of competition amongst students within the school that undermined the academic environment... not to say that students couldn't still achieve and learn, but did so in a manner that was unnecessarily poisonous to mental health for too large of a proportion of the student body.

Anything at the top level is hyper-competitive, Olympic level competitions, NFL, NBA, World Cup. Nature of the game. if you can't stand the heat, Get out the kitchen.

Recent data indicates that success in youth sports has more to do with money spent than actual talent, which indicates that it's just like academics.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/12/12/youth-sports-rising-costs/

Then, why do posters only attack academics? Academics is more important than sports. Hypocrites.

Not sure there's anything to attack here. It's more of a statement of fact and as to importance that's subjective.

I guess it might have something to do with that academic opportunities should be open to all residents not just those who spend the most money. With sports, personally, I personally believe that is of any value, but yes if public money is supporting that nonsense by all means the playing field should be leveled. Nevertheless, the best outcome in my opinion would be that public dollars were spent on education not sports that cater mainly to a small group of enthusiats.

Sport teams are funded by taxpayers' money so they should reflect the demographics of the county. Fairfax county has almost 20% Asian students so all sport teams must include 20% players!

A better solution might be to stop funding the sports teams and use the surplus to give everyone free enrichment.

No EQUITY demands that Asians make up 20% of ALL sport teams in all public schools in fcps! All students benefit by being exposed to different races, groups and perspectives!

I really don't know why people roll their eyes at this. Why aren't there consultants to come look at why APA students are not included on sports teams and why that is?

Proper representation for Asians on sport teams! Equity and diversity demand this unjust hoarding stop!

Many studies have shown the benefits of having students exposed to different racial and ethnic groups and leads to better experience for all involved. Do not exclude Asian students from sport teams but include them and embrace diversity!

+1

This is exactly why TJ needs more diversity! The old system was so easily gamed by those with resources that it became homogenous.

TJ was the most diverse public school in the county before the admission system was changed to let in unqualified kids.

DP. By what measure?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol

There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...

It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.

Actually, the new system is easier to game.

Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.

Where did you buy your answers?

The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL

Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.

The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.

Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.

+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.

No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.

If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.

Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.

It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.

It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.

How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?

I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.

That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.

This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.

Makes them smart!

Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.

Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?

The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.

Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.

So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?

Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?

Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.

The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.

But there is a plausible simple explanation - if you know you have no chance of getting in you choose not to apply. If you are mediocre at violin or something, you don't opt to try out for an elite string group. The same thing may have happened at TJ. We do not know. On this board, I have heard many times that white students stopped applying because they did not like the "toxic" culture of TJ produced by an 80% Asian student body. Still not sure what the definition of "toxic" is in that statement.

NP, but I'll take a stab since you seem to be struggling with basics... perhaps an unhealthy degree of competition amongst students within the school that undermined the academic environment... not to say that students couldn't still achieve and learn, but did so in a manner that was unnecessarily poisonous to mental health for too large of a proportion of the student body.

Anything at the top level is hyper-competitive, Olympic level competitions, NFL, NBA, World Cup. Nature of the game. if you can't stand the heat, Get out the kitchen.

Recent data indicates that success in youth sports has more to do with money spent than actual talent, which indicates that it's just like academics.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/12/12/youth-sports-rising-costs/

Then, why do posters only attack academics? Academics is more important than sports. Hypocrites.

Not sure there's anything to attack here. It's more of a statement of fact and as to importance that's subjective.

I guess it might have something to do with that academic opportunities should be open to all residents not just those who spend the most money. With sports, personally, I personally believe that is of any value, but yes if public money is supporting that nonsense by all means the playing field should be leveled. Nevertheless, the best outcome in my opinion would be that public dollars were spent on education not sports that cater mainly to a small group of enthusiats.

Sport teams are funded by taxpayers' money so they should reflect the demographics of the county. Fairfax county has almost 20% Asian students so all sport teams must include 20% players!

A better solution might be to stop funding the sports teams and use the surplus to give everyone free enrichment.

No EQUITY demands that Asians make up 20% of ALL sport teams in all public schools in fcps! All students benefit by being exposed to different races, groups and perspectives!

I really don't know why people roll their eyes at this. Why aren't there consultants to come look at why APA students are not included on sports teams and why that is?

Proper representation for Asians on sport teams! Equity and diversity demand this unjust hoarding stop!

Many studies have shown the benefits of having students exposed to different racial and ethnic groups and leads to better experience for all involved. Do not exclude Asian students from sport teams but include them and embrace diversity!

+1

This is exactly why TJ needs more diversity! The old system was so easily gamed by those with resources that it became homogenous.

TJ was the most diverse public school in the county before the admission system was changed to let in unqualified kids.

DP. By what measure?

Ethnicity, nationality, number of foreign languages spoken at home.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol

There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...

It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.

Actually, the new system is easier to game.

Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.

Where did you buy your answers?

The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL

Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.

The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.

Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.

+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.

No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.

If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.

Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.

It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.

It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.

How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?

I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.

That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.

This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.

Makes them smart!

Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.

Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?

The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.

Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.

So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?

Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?

Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.

The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.

But there is a plausible simple explanation - if you know you have no chance of getting in you choose not to apply. If you are mediocre at violin or something, you don't opt to try out for an elite string group. The same thing may have happened at TJ. We do not know. On this board, I have heard many times that white students stopped applying because they did not like the "toxic" culture of TJ produced by an 80% Asian student body. Still not sure what the definition of "toxic" is in that statement.

NP, but I'll take a stab since you seem to be struggling with basics... perhaps an unhealthy degree of competition amongst students within the school that undermined the academic environment... not to say that students couldn't still achieve and learn, but did so in a manner that was unnecessarily poisonous to mental health for too large of a proportion of the student body.

Anything at the top level is hyper-competitive, Olympic level competitions, NFL, NBA, World Cup. Nature of the game. if you can't stand the heat, Get out the kitchen.

Recent data indicates that success in youth sports has more to do with money spent than actual talent, which indicates that it's just like academics.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/12/12/youth-sports-rising-costs/

Then, why do posters only attack academics? Academics is more important than sports. Hypocrites.

Not sure there's anything to attack here. It's more of a statement of fact and as to importance that's subjective.

I guess it might have something to do with that academic opportunities should be open to all residents not just those who spend the most money. With sports, personally, I personally believe that is of any value, but yes if public money is supporting that nonsense by all means the playing field should be leveled. Nevertheless, the best outcome in my opinion would be that public dollars were spent on education not sports that cater mainly to a small group of enthusiats.

Sport teams are funded by taxpayers' money so they should reflect the demographics of the county. Fairfax county has almost 20% Asian students so all sport teams must include 20% players!

A better solution might be to stop funding the sports teams and use the surplus to give everyone free enrichment.

No EQUITY demands that Asians make up 20% of ALL sport teams in all public schools in fcps! All students benefit by being exposed to different races, groups and perspectives!

I really don't know why people roll their eyes at this. Why aren't there consultants to come look at why APA students are not included on sports teams and why that is?

Proper representation for Asians on sport teams! Equity and diversity demand this unjust hoarding stop!

Many studies have shown the benefits of having students exposed to different racial and ethnic groups and leads to better experience for all involved. Do not exclude Asian students from sport teams but include them and embrace diversity!

+1

This is exactly why TJ needs more diversity! The old system was so easily gamed by those with resources that it became homogenous.

TJ was the most diverse public school in the county before the admission system was changed to let in unqualified kids.

DP. By what measure?

The imaginary one of course.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol

There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...

It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.

Actually, the new system is easier to game.

Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.

Where did you buy your answers?

The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL

Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.

The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.

Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.

+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.

No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.

If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.

Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.

It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.

It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.

How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?

I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.

That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.

This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.

Makes them smart!

Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.

Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?

The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.

Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.

So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?

Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?

Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.

The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.

But there is a plausible simple explanation - if you know you have no chance of getting in you choose not to apply. If you are mediocre at violin or something, you don't opt to try out for an elite string group. The same thing may have happened at TJ. We do not know. On this board, I have heard many times that white students stopped applying because they did not like the "toxic" culture of TJ produced by an 80% Asian student body. Still not sure what the definition of "toxic" is in that statement.

NP, but I'll take a stab since you seem to be struggling with basics... perhaps an unhealthy degree of competition amongst students within the school that undermined the academic environment... not to say that students couldn't still achieve and learn, but did so in a manner that was unnecessarily poisonous to mental health for too large of a proportion of the student body.

Anything at the top level is hyper-competitive, Olympic level competitions, NFL, NBA, World Cup. Nature of the game. if you can't stand the heat, Get out the kitchen.

Recent data indicates that success in youth sports has more to do with money spent than actual talent, which indicates that it's just like academics.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/12/12/youth-sports-rising-costs/

Then, why do posters only attack academics? Academics is more important than sports. Hypocrites.

Not sure there's anything to attack here. It's more of a statement of fact and as to importance that's subjective.

I guess it might have something to do with that academic opportunities should be open to all residents not just those who spend the most money. With sports, personally, I personally believe that is of any value, but yes if public money is supporting that nonsense by all means the playing field should be leveled. Nevertheless, the best outcome in my opinion would be that public dollars were spent on education not sports that cater mainly to a small group of enthusiats.

Sport teams are funded by taxpayers' money so they should reflect the demographics of the county. Fairfax county has almost 20% Asian students so all sport teams must include 20% players!

Taxpayers dont pay for sports - sports boosters and concession sales and coupon sales and mulch sales pay for sports

Exactly why sports aren't equivalent to academic opportunities offered by a public school system. The latter should be accessible to all residents, not just those who spend thousands on outside enrichment. Sports on the other hand are irrelevant. I don't even care about that and am not even sure why they are not completely separate form school.

The Federal government has deemed athletics an integral part of an institution's education program, and thereby protects athletes from discrimination under laws such as Title IX. We need proper representation of Asian athletes in collegiate athletics to promote diversity and equity.

Title IX doesn't mention sports.

Title IX is very much a part of college athletics.

https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/interath.html
https://www.si.com/college/2022/05/19/title-ix-50th-anniversary-womens-sports-impact-daily-cover

In most cases it manifests as a requirement that the budgets for men’s sports be equal to the budgets for women’s sports. Athletic departments bend over backwards to accommodate it.

Something similar can be made for Asians, such as require all basketball teams reserve at least one scholarship for an Asian student athlete.

Go ahead and present that brilliant idea to the NCAA.

[Anonymous]

Equity demands Asians not be systematically excluded from public high school sport programs. We need affirmative action to increase no. of Asian athletes in publicly funded public school sport programs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol

There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...

It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.

Actually, the new system is easier to game.

Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.

Where did you buy your answers?

The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL

Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.

The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.

Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.

+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.

No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.

If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.

Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.

It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.

It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.

How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?

I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.

That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.

This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.

Makes them smart!

Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.

Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?

The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.

Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.

So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?

Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?

Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.

The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.

But there is a plausible simple explanation - if you know you have no chance of getting in you choose not to apply. If you are mediocre at violin or something, you don't opt to try out for an elite string group. The same thing may have happened at TJ. We do not know. On this board, I have heard many times that white students stopped applying because they did not like the "toxic" culture of TJ produced by an 80% Asian student body. Still not sure what the definition of "toxic" is in that statement.

NP, but I'll take a stab since you seem to be struggling with basics... perhaps an unhealthy degree of competition amongst students within the school that undermined the academic environment... not to say that students couldn't still achieve and learn, but did so in a manner that was unnecessarily poisonous to mental health for too large of a proportion of the student body.

Anything at the top level is hyper-competitive, Olympic level competitions, NFL, NBA, World Cup. Nature of the game. if you can't stand the heat, Get out the kitchen.

Recent data indicates that success in youth sports has more to do with money spent than actual talent, which indicates that it's just like academics.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/12/12/youth-sports-rising-costs/

Then, why do posters only attack academics? Academics is more important than sports. Hypocrites.

Not sure there's anything to attack here. It's more of a statement of fact and as to importance that's subjective.

I guess it might have something to do with that academic opportunities should be open to all residents not just those who spend the most money. With sports, personally, I personally believe that is of any value, but yes if public money is supporting that nonsense by all means the playing field should be leveled. Nevertheless, the best outcome in my opinion would be that public dollars were spent on education not sports that cater mainly to a small group of enthusiats.

Sport teams are funded by taxpayers' money so they should reflect the demographics of the county. Fairfax county has almost 20% Asian students so all sport teams must include 20% players!

A better solution might be to stop funding the sports teams and use the surplus to give everyone free enrichment.

No EQUITY demands that Asians make up 20% of ALL sport teams in all public schools in fcps! All students benefit by being exposed to different races, groups and perspectives!

I really don't know why people roll their eyes at this. Why aren't there consultants to come look at why APA students are not included on sports teams and why that is?

Proper representation for Asians on sport teams! Equity and diversity demand this unjust hoarding stop!

Many studies have shown the benefits of having students exposed to different racial and ethnic groups and leads to better experience for all involved. Do not exclude Asian students from sport teams but include them and embrace diversity!

+1

This is exactly why TJ needs more diversity! The old system was so easily gamed by those with resources that it became homogenous.

TJ was the most diverse public school in the county before the admission system was changed to let in unqualified kids.

I heard it was 70% Asian which doesn't sound very diverse at all.

[Anonymous]

Wow, you all are really bored waiting for the 4th circuit to issue its decision.

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Anonymous wrote:Look it's very easy. This all started with the NAACP. Some/Most Democrats bend over backward for this organization, frankly because they are deathly afraid to be called racist.

You might not like Asra's approach but it's what needs to be done. Democrats need to be afraid that they will be called racist if they ever go against asians

That's all the democratic party is a bunch of spineless politicians afraid of special interest groups and kowtowing to increasingly extreme and radical demands to appear woke.

To be fair many republicans do the same thing with the insane MAGA crowd.

It's why unaffiliated is dramatically increasing. Both parties suck.

The problem is that Asra looks like a clown show because she's advocating on behalf of a people who are relatively VERY well off in the Northern Virginia area from her estate in Great Falls. Her message resonates with other rich folks but when she tries to compare their struggle to that of African-Americans in this country, she comes off as incredibly tone deaf to everyone who is NOT in her affinity group.

If you need evidence of how out of touch she is, look at the videos that she posts where she's shrieking like a lunatic. Any normal person would want to distance themselves from that sort of self-incriminating footage as much as possible, but she uses it as leverage to gain the sympathy of other folks who, like her, believe that Black people are inferior and undeserving.

If anything is out of touch, it's the TJ Alumni Action Group types pretending that admitting a few more Black kids to TJ is going to meaningfully address the "struggle of African Americans in this county."

FCPS just released Class of 2022 SAT scores. It's not pretty. Black kids continue to have the lowest scores of any group in the county. The average at Mount Vernon, of the schools with the largest percentage of Black kids, was only 988.

But, sure, keep pretending your efforts to replace merit at TJ with tokenism are going to move the needle in any meaningful way. It makes you feel good and as a bonus you get to toss grenades at the highest performing group, Asian students, whose parents often came this country with nothing.

1) A few more spots at TJ isn't going to address the struggle of African-Americans in this country. You're conflating arguments. My point was that Asra is a clown for comparing her struggles to theirs. That's not a controversial statement.

2) No one is tossing grenades at Asian students who has any decision-making power. Some idiots on here are, to be sure, but no one cares about them. What is happening is simply a long-term, still-in-progress adjustment to a process that demonstrably FAVORED Asian students through an over-emphasis on an outdated mode of evaluation that was compromised by a nine-figure prep complex that created huge advantages for families with disposable time, income, and the willingness to invest their resources to create imbalances in the process.

3) There are a staggering amount of Asian parents on this board who seem to want their children to get bonus points for the fact that they came to America with nothing. You are to be commended for the fact that you came to America and built a life for yourself through what undoubtedly was a huge struggle for you and a huge risk for your family. My father did the exact same thing.

But just as my parents provided a very comfortable life for me through THEIR hard work, your children likely have a lot of advantages that others don't through yours. Their lives will almost certainly be very comfortable as a result, irrespective of whether or not they matriculate to TJ or an Ivy League school or whatever. If I'm evaluating applications, I'm looking at context; what did this child do in the context of their circumstances? And while I think FCPS still has work to do in this area to identify the top students at each middle school (reinstituting teacher recs, conducting interviews, liaising with students services folks, etc), their attempt in this area is admirable.

Your kid is not being punished for your success - they're simply no longer being rewarded for it. And I can understand how that feels like a jab at you, given how many parents in that community seem to view TJ and college admissions acceptances as an accomplishment for the family (read: the parents) rather than for the student - but it's not. Schools aren't admitting parents; they're admitting kids.

You make a good argument and I agree with some of your points but what's missing is any acknowledgment that there always has been and continues to be a lot of discrimination against Asians in the United States. Not a day goes by when my child is not being made fun of or stereotyped for how they look. My child's good friend is Hispanic but white Hispanic with blond hair and when they talk about discrimination the friend shrugs and says they have not experienced any of it because of how they look. Why is my child's experience devalued?

It isn't... it just has nothing to do with getting into an elite school. The ugly historic discrimination that has been suffered by Asian-Americans in this country is something that we should all be ashamed of - but "my kid gets made fun of because of how they look" doesn't equate to "we have no money because my parents can't get a high paying job because people think Black folks are inherently dumber".

You really don’t get it do you? Asians also lose out on jobs too because people stereotype them as lower class, stupid because of accents, or other horrible ideas about race. Do you a white person actually have any idea what it is like? It goes far beyond being teased or bullied but the fact that you brush that off as not a big deal shows your ignorance. How dare you.

…what year do you think it is?

When corrected for education, Asians are the race least likely to be promoted to management or be elected to office.

Well that's because they do the real work that requires brains behind the scenes, management and politicians are mostly filled with dumba$$es. Many Asians could do those jobs easily, but they would not find their lives fulfilled by practicing deception on a daily basis or spouting off random feel good BS. The world advances on the backs of scientists, researchers, engineers and not very many folks here in the US are cut out to do those jobs. Politicians and managers? They're a dime a dozen.

I agree that kids who are doing a lot of extra math may be advanced but not particularly smart. The problem is that the kids in FCPS taking Algebra I in 8th grade are neither smart nor advanced. FCPS makes it pathetically easy for any kid with even a modicum of math talent to take Algebra in 7th. I'll take an advanced kid who may not be smart over a kid who is clearly not advanced and also not smart any day of the week.

https://longfellowms.fcps.edu/sites/default/files/media/inline-files/2018CurriculumNight_Combined.pdf This document presents Algebra in 7th grade as a highly unusual option for students who completed accelerated 6th grade math, scored in the 91st percentile in the IOWA assessment, and pass advanced (500+) on the Math 7 SOL. That seems like quite a bit more than "a modicum of math talent"

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Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol

There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...

It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.

Actually, the new system is easier to game.

Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.

Where did you buy your answers?

The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL

Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.

The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.

Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.

+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.

No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.

If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.

Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.

It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.

It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.

How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?

I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.

That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.

This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.

Makes them smart!

Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.

Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?

The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.

Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.

So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?

Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?

Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.

The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.

But there is a plausible simple explanation - if you know you have no chance of getting in you choose not to apply. If you are mediocre at violin or something, you don't opt to try out for an elite string group. The same thing may have happened at TJ. We do not know. On this board, I have heard many times that white students stopped applying because they did not like the "toxic" culture of TJ produced by an 80% Asian student body. Still not sure what the definition of "toxic" is in that statement.

NP, but I'll take a stab since you seem to be struggling with basics... perhaps an unhealthy degree of competition amongst students within the school that undermined the academic environment... not to say that students couldn't still achieve and learn, but did so in a manner that was unnecessarily poisonous to mental health for too large of a proportion of the student body.

Anything at the top level is hyper-competitive, Olympic level competitions, NFL, NBA, World Cup. Nature of the game. if you can't stand the heat, Get out the kitchen.

Recent data indicates that success in youth sports has more to do with money spent than actual talent, which indicates that it's just like academics.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/12/12/youth-sports-rising-costs/

Then, why do posters only attack academics? Academics is more important than sports. Hypocrites.

Not sure there's anything to attack here. It's more of a statement of fact and as to importance that's subjective.

I guess it might have something to do with that academic opportunities should be open to all residents not just those who spend the most money. With sports, personally, I personally believe that is of any value, but yes if public money is supporting that nonsense by all means the playing field should be leveled. Nevertheless, the best outcome in my opinion would be that public dollars were spent on education not sports that cater mainly to a small group of enthusiats.

Sport teams are funded by taxpayers' money so they should reflect the demographics of the county. Fairfax county has almost 20% Asian students so all sport teams must include 20% players!

A better solution might be to stop funding the sports teams and use the surplus to give everyone free enrichment.

No EQUITY demands that Asians make up 20% of ALL sport teams in all public schools in fcps! All students benefit by being exposed to different races, groups and perspectives!

I really don't know why people roll their eyes at this. Why aren't there consultants to come look at why APA students are not included on sports teams and why that is?

Proper representation for Asians on sport teams! Equity and diversity demand this unjust hoarding stop!

Many studies have shown the benefits of having students exposed to different racial and ethnic groups and leads to better experience for all involved. Do not exclude Asian students from sport teams but include them and embrace diversity!

+1

This is exactly why TJ needs more diversity! The old system was so easily gamed by those with resources that it became homogenous.

TJ was the most diverse public school in the county before the admission system was changed to let in unqualified kids.

I heard it was 70% Asian which doesn't sound very diverse at all.

You do realize that Asia is half the human population and represents a huge number of races, countries, languages. But if you want to lump people into boxes based on your ignorant thinking that’s just racist and vile.