Anonymous wrote:Not only are her lyrics perpetually self-focused, they are also increasingly inauthentic as she continues to write songs as though she is a perpetually unlucky-in-love, middle class, millennial woman starring in a 90s rom com. She writes from the perspective of her fans, not from her own lived experience, and it shows:
(from "Paris" on Midnights, 2022): "Stumbled down pretend alleys, cheap wine, make believe it's champagne, I was taken by the view."
When was the last time Taylor Swift ran around with a guy drinking cheap wine and pretending it was champagne, and was "taken" by the view in a city like Paris? When she wrote this song, she was a multi-millionaire juggernaut with a host of Grammy's, a massive portfolio of homes, had been to Paris many times. When has Swift EVER had to drink cheap wine on a date? She dates successful musicians, actors, and athletes and is herself wealthy and successful.
It just doesn't ring true. It feels like what you write when you are intentionally trying to evoke a moment that the typical 30 year old, middle class, woman will relate to. But it's not real for her.
I don't understand what the point is for her to writing songs like this. I don't believe that came from her heart or was ripped from her actual journal. It feels like a calculated piece of fan service. And a lot of her music feels like this. There are exceptions (Antihero certainly feels like an authentic self reflection of her real life) but a lot of it sounds like this. I'd rather she took a looooong break and wrote an entire album like Antihero and dropped this "I'm just a girls, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her" schtick. But it to bed. She's done it. It's not who she is (I actually don't really think it's who she ever was, I think it's always been a bit of a put on) and there's no more need for more Swift songs like this in the world.
I would like her a lot more if she released less music and toured less, but what she released was more interesting, more innovative, more creative. I think she has the capacity for it but she has chosen to go the route of making as much money as she can. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable choice. But it's not one I respect *artistically*. I don't think it results in great work. I think it undermines the quality of her music.
I don’t understand this criticism. I just read and watched the show lessons in chemistry which I really enjoyed. I’m pretty sure the author of that book was never a chemist in the 1950s struggling with sexism in the sciences and then getting a cooking show. But she told the story beautifully and captured some archetypal type themes which I, also not a which I, also not a woman in the 1950s, or in the hard sciences, could relate to beautifully. Which I think is what Taylor does so well.
You are in a way right- I’m posting on the thread but not the poster you are responding to. I just hate Taylor’s themes.
“Look
What you made me do” is awful to me because we are always responsible for our own behavior
Getting revenge on a lover is not ok
Stalking a lover is not ok
End game is equating a person to figure in a chess board and not the way I would want to choose my life partner nor would I want to be chosen that way
Romeo and Juliet died
Even her gay pride video all the people are beautiful are “good” o disagree with that as a strategy.
I think she has vengeful and hurtful themes to her music. Thanks for helping me see that!
Some of this is just being cheeky. Have you actually listened to Look What You Made Me Do or watch her perform? You are taking it really literally. We all have vengeful and negative qualities to us. We all are jealous of people we love and even if we are rooting for them, might have uncomfortable feelings at some point in our life. We struggle with parenting even though most of us would give our lives for our children without a second thought. We think bad thoughts about our spouses at times when they annoy us or piss us off, even though we love them and are in committed marriages. This is just life, the good and the bad, and the simplicity and the complexity of being human.
DP. I agree that we all have negative emotions or qualities at times, and that exploring that is a ripe subject for art. I actually think Antihero is a great example of this and so relatable specifically because Swift is being so honest about the negative aspects of her own relationships and behaviors. I think we've all felt that way at times, and that song is cathartic because it rings so true.
But I actually do think PP has a point about some of the vengeful and hurtful themes in some of Swift's other music. Maybe not Look What You Made Me Do, which I agree is ironic, but Bad Blood and End Game are good examples. Sometimes she's tongue-in-cheek about it, but she's writing about these themes so often.
I think one reason it can annoy, and this might not be fair, is that people (correctly) perceive Swift as a very privileged person and there is only so much complaining about "being wronged" that people will take from someone that privileged. Like people embraced Beyonce's Lemonade revenge album because it was her breaking from a lifelong persona as someone who is in charge and doesn't get taken advantage of. Especially coming after some public reports of Jay's infidelity and the elevator video, I think it made people embrace her vulnerability. But it's the only time she's done that. Most of her music is about feeling powerful and confident and in charge, and a longtime spouse cheating feels like a justifiable reason to drop that and just feel hurt or vengeful.
But Taylor goes to this well over and over, and she's writing about relationships of just months or a few years, no marriage or kids, or sometimes friendships gone bad. While of course everyone feels hurt and vengeful about romantic and friend breakups sometimes, someone who complains about this stuff a lot starts to sound like they are just blaming others for their problems and failing to do the work on themselves to avoid all this conflict.
I mean I feel like it’s a theme in some songs, not in others. She definitely has themes that she feels most comfortable writing to as I think most artists, whether you are painting, writing songs music, movies, novels, do. This seems pretty common for anyone putting out art.
Do you have the same criticisms of say someone like Stephen King, who really likes the horror genre and exploring the human condition through similar techniques and themes, or Quentin Tarantino, which you can really tell his style and things that he likes to explore in his movies over and over.
Maybe people do have these criticisms, and we just hear so much more about Taylor because she is such a global phenomenon and is everywhere. I don’t know… I find it fascinating that she generates so much discussion on this board alone!
Yes, 100% many people have criticized both King and Tarantino for their reliance on certain themes and images in their art, for being to repetitive, and much of their work has been panned even while other works are heralded (people love Pulp Fiction but the Hateful Eight was widely disliked, King's early work is beloved in the horror genre but his more recent novels have been more uneven and gotten far less love).
One reason you will see more criticism of Swift is that she is so big and inescapable right now. This is the nature of great success, especially mainstream success. Both Tarantino and King are considered genre artists, so their audiences are smaller -- people who don't like violent films or horror novels are unlikely to make the effort to engage with either artist. As a writer, King will never have the level of fame or exposure of someone like Swift. And even Tarantino only makes a movie every few years -- there will be years that go by where his name isn't part of the conversation regarding the Oscars, for instance. But Taylor Swift is everywhere, she's inevitable. People are going to hear her music, read about her love life, hear about her Grammy nominations, she's always got a new album coming out, she's also in the press for something or other, whether it's Kelce or supporting Sophie Turner or speaking out about an issue she cares about. She is "overexposed" as they say, and that will ALWAYS result in more attention and thus more criticism for an artist. It's one reason why some artists actively avoid that level of fame, even if it means giving up some of the money that goes with it. It's a hard environment. But it's one Swift chose and aggressively pursued for herself.
I agree with what you say, but I’d argue that Pulp Fiction is a masterpiece. I’d say the same for Salem’s Lot. For me, all of Taylor Swift’s music, from start to finish, is terribly bland and mediocre, like Wonder white bread.
I wonder if her fans have ever heard, for instance, Debbie Harry’s music? She’s the real deal, beautiful, creative, artistic. I get that each generation needs its own stars, but surely, there’s got to be someone better out there than Taylor and yet she’s everywhere. I’m trying to read about what’s happening in Israel and I see that Taylor and Travis are spending Christmas in Kansas. We only know that because her PR team put it out there. She’s just awful.
What exactly makes Debbie Harry the real deal but Taylor not? They’re both beautiful, creative, and artistic. They write songs with the same themes (heartbreak, yearning, crazy things we do for love). I don’t see a huge difference between them. Debbie is stronger vocally but not by a whole lot anymore.
If you cannot see the massive difference in both talent and looks between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift, then I certainly won’t be able to explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Chanel purse to a Coach one. You either see the difference in style and quality and admire it or you don’t.
Okay, so you can’t explain the massive difference. Maybe because there just isn’t. They even look similar.
I can, but you still won’t get it. Debbie Harry was a revolutionary who basically invented punk rock. Taylor Swift’s music is the opposite of revolutionary. It’s reductive and redundant. It’s the same as what Debbie Gibson sang, not Debbie Harry.
As for looks, Debbie Harry has beautiful, large eyes and an aristocratic bone structure. Her birth mom was a concert pianist and it shows. Taylor Swift has tiny, mean looking slits for eyes and she looks country, which was why she started off in country. There is nothing remotely sophisticated about her.
Again, if you can’t see the difference I can’t explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Gap sweater to an Akris blouse. Maybe you can’t tell the difference, but I can.
New poster but I think you just need to step back. Mean looking slits for eyes? This just getting really petty. We get it you don’t like Taylor Swift. you don’t have to give a breakdown of why you think she’s ugly. It’s just weird.
Why should I take a step back? My opinion is just as valid as yours. Besides, you’re the one who is having a breakdown because I think Taylor is ugly, not me.
I was just calmly answering PP’s clearly rhetorical question about the differences she cannot see between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift’s looks.
To me, Debbie Harry is beautiful and Taylor Swift is not. PP says they look alike. They don’t. I’m starting to think some of you are face blind or something. All you can see is blonde hair? Their faces could not be more different.
The comment was mean and petty. That’s all I was pointing out. The whole title of this thread is mean and petty, so whatever carry on. It’s really just sad that it’s devolved into comparing women’s looks so yeah not gonna step back from that and at least gonna call it out. It’s pathetic.
You know what? When you put yourself out there as a celebrity you open yourself up to criticism. It’s sad that you’re treating her like she’s a 7th grader being picked on by bullies at school. Taylor is subpar looks-wise and talent- wise when compared to singers of the past. Debbie Harry bring only one of those much superior artists. Some of us want the entertainment industry to bring back the best instead of pedaling this mediocre crap. Okay?
dp Why should you criticize her looks though? This is something she can't control. It is total sexism to focus on her looks rather than her skill as a successful musician. You may not like her but, you can not deny that she is commercially successful.
If you are not sexist tell us about all the male musicians that you criticize for their "beady eyes" or pale white skin
I’m as critical with males, lol. Don’t get me started on Ed Sheeran. I cannot stomach “The Shape of You.” I stopped listening to my radio station solely because of him, but Taylor helped.
My mom had Bruce Springsteen and I’ve got Ed. Our culture is truly degenerating before our eyes.
Anonymous wrote:Not only are her lyrics perpetually self-focused, they are also increasingly inauthentic as she continues to write songs as though she is a perpetually unlucky-in-love, middle class, millennial woman starring in a 90s rom com. She writes from the perspective of her fans, not from her own lived experience, and it shows:
(from "Paris" on Midnights, 2022): "Stumbled down pretend alleys, cheap wine, make believe it's champagne, I was taken by the view."
When was the last time Taylor Swift ran around with a guy drinking cheap wine and pretending it was champagne, and was "taken" by the view in a city like Paris? When she wrote this song, she was a multi-millionaire juggernaut with a host of Grammy's, a massive portfolio of homes, had been to Paris many times. When has Swift EVER had to drink cheap wine on a date? She dates successful musicians, actors, and athletes and is herself wealthy and successful.
It just doesn't ring true. It feels like what you write when you are intentionally trying to evoke a moment that the typical 30 year old, middle class, woman will relate to. But it's not real for her.
I don't understand what the point is for her to writing songs like this. I don't believe that came from her heart or was ripped from her actual journal. It feels like a calculated piece of fan service. And a lot of her music feels like this. There are exceptions (Antihero certainly feels like an authentic self reflection of her real life) but a lot of it sounds like this. I'd rather she took a looooong break and wrote an entire album like Antihero and dropped this "I'm just a girls, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her" schtick. But it to bed. She's done it. It's not who she is (I actually don't really think it's who she ever was, I think it's always been a bit of a put on) and there's no more need for more Swift songs like this in the world.
I would like her a lot more if she released less music and toured less, but what she released was more interesting, more innovative, more creative. I think she has the capacity for it but she has chosen to go the route of making as much money as she can. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable choice. But it's not one I respect *artistically*. I don't think it results in great work. I think it undermines the quality of her music.
I don’t understand this criticism. I just read and watched the show lessons in chemistry which I really enjoyed. I’m pretty sure the author of that book was never a chemist in the 1950s struggling with sexism in the sciences and then getting a cooking show. But she told the story beautifully and captured some archetypal type themes which I, also not a which I, also not a woman in the 1950s, or in the hard sciences, could relate to beautifully. Which I think is what Taylor does so well.
You are in a way right- I’m posting on the thread but not the poster you are responding to. I just hate Taylor’s themes.
“Look
What you made me do” is awful to me because we are always responsible for our own behavior
Getting revenge on a lover is not ok
Stalking a lover is not ok
End game is equating a person to figure in a chess board and not the way I would want to choose my life partner nor would I want to be chosen that way
Romeo and Juliet died
Even her gay pride video all the people are beautiful are “good” o disagree with that as a strategy.
I think she has vengeful and hurtful themes to her music. Thanks for helping me see that!
Some of this is just being cheeky. Have you actually listened to Look What You Made Me Do or watch her perform? You are taking it really literally. We all have vengeful and negative qualities to us. We all are jealous of people we love and even if we are rooting for them, might have uncomfortable feelings at some point in our life. We struggle with parenting even though most of us would give our lives for our children without a second thought. We think bad thoughts about our spouses at times when they annoy us or piss us off, even though we love them and are in committed marriages. This is just life, the good and the bad, and the simplicity and the complexity of being human.
DP. I agree that we all have negative emotions or qualities at times, and that exploring that is a ripe subject for art. I actually think Antihero is a great example of this and so relatable specifically because Swift is being so honest about the negative aspects of her own relationships and behaviors. I think we've all felt that way at times, and that song is cathartic because it rings so true.
But I actually do think PP has a point about some of the vengeful and hurtful themes in some of Swift's other music. Maybe not Look What You Made Me Do, which I agree is ironic, but Bad Blood and End Game are good examples. Sometimes she's tongue-in-cheek about it, but she's writing about these themes so often.
I think one reason it can annoy, and this might not be fair, is that people (correctly) perceive Swift as a very privileged person and there is only so much complaining about "being wronged" that people will take from someone that privileged. Like people embraced Beyonce's Lemonade revenge album because it was her breaking from a lifelong persona as someone who is in charge and doesn't get taken advantage of. Especially coming after some public reports of Jay's infidelity and the elevator video, I think it made people embrace her vulnerability. But it's the only time she's done that. Most of her music is about feeling powerful and confident and in charge, and a longtime spouse cheating feels like a justifiable reason to drop that and just feel hurt or vengeful.
But Taylor goes to this well over and over, and she's writing about relationships of just months or a few years, no marriage or kids, or sometimes friendships gone bad. While of course everyone feels hurt and vengeful about romantic and friend breakups sometimes, someone who complains about this stuff a lot starts to sound like they are just blaming others for their problems and failing to do the work on themselves to avoid all this conflict.
I mean I feel like it’s a theme in some songs, not in others. She definitely has themes that she feels most comfortable writing to as I think most artists, whether you are painting, writing songs music, movies, novels, do. This seems pretty common for anyone putting out art.
Do you have the same criticisms of say someone like Stephen King, who really likes the horror genre and exploring the human condition through similar techniques and themes, or Quentin Tarantino, which you can really tell his style and things that he likes to explore in his movies over and over.
Maybe people do have these criticisms, and we just hear so much more about Taylor because she is such a global phenomenon and is everywhere. I don’t know… I find it fascinating that she generates so much discussion on this board alone!
Yes, 100% many people have criticized both King and Tarantino for their reliance on certain themes and images in their art, for being to repetitive, and much of their work has been panned even while other works are heralded (people love Pulp Fiction but the Hateful Eight was widely disliked, King's early work is beloved in the horror genre but his more recent novels have been more uneven and gotten far less love).
One reason you will see more criticism of Swift is that she is so big and inescapable right now. This is the nature of great success, especially mainstream success. Both Tarantino and King are considered genre artists, so their audiences are smaller -- people who don't like violent films or horror novels are unlikely to make the effort to engage with either artist. As a writer, King will never have the level of fame or exposure of someone like Swift. And even Tarantino only makes a movie every few years -- there will be years that go by where his name isn't part of the conversation regarding the Oscars, for instance. But Taylor Swift is everywhere, she's inevitable. People are going to hear her music, read about her love life, hear about her Grammy nominations, she's always got a new album coming out, she's also in the press for something or other, whether it's Kelce or supporting Sophie Turner or speaking out about an issue she cares about. She is "overexposed" as they say, and that will ALWAYS result in more attention and thus more criticism for an artist. It's one reason why some artists actively avoid that level of fame, even if it means giving up some of the money that goes with it. It's a hard environment. But it's one Swift chose and aggressively pursued for herself.
I agree with what you say, but I’d argue that Pulp Fiction is a masterpiece. I’d say the same for Salem’s Lot. For me, all of Taylor Swift’s music, from start to finish, is terribly bland and mediocre, like Wonder white bread.
I wonder if her fans have ever heard, for instance, Debbie Harry’s music? She’s the real deal, beautiful, creative, artistic. I get that each generation needs its own stars, but surely, there’s got to be someone better out there than Taylor and yet she’s everywhere. I’m trying to read about what’s happening in Israel and I see that Taylor and Travis are spending Christmas in Kansas. We only know that because her PR team put it out there. She’s just awful.
What exactly makes Debbie Harry the real deal but Taylor not? They’re both beautiful, creative, and artistic. They write songs with the same themes (heartbreak, yearning, crazy things we do for love). I don’t see a huge difference between them. Debbie is stronger vocally but not by a whole lot anymore.
If you cannot see the massive difference in both talent and looks between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift, then I certainly won’t be able to explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Chanel purse to a Coach one. You either see the difference in style and quality and admire it or you don’t.
Okay, so you can’t explain the massive difference. Maybe because there just isn’t. They even look similar.
I can, but you still won’t get it. Debbie Harry was a revolutionary who basically invented punk rock. Taylor Swift’s music is the opposite of revolutionary. It’s reductive and redundant. It’s the same as what Debbie Gibson sang, not Debbie Harry.
As for looks, Debbie Harry has beautiful, large eyes and an aristocratic bone structure. Her birth mom was a concert pianist and it shows. Taylor Swift has tiny, mean looking slits for eyes and she looks country, which was why she started off in country. There is nothing remotely sophisticated about her.
Again, if you can’t see the difference I can’t explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Gap sweater to an Akris blouse. Maybe you can’t tell the difference, but I can.
New poster but I think you just need to step back. Mean looking slits for eyes? This just getting really petty. We get it you don’t like Taylor Swift. you don’t have to give a breakdown of why you think she’s ugly. It’s just weird.
Why should I take a step back? My opinion is just as valid as yours. Besides, you’re the one who is having a breakdown because I think Taylor is ugly, not me.
I was just calmly answering PP’s clearly rhetorical question about the differences she cannot see between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift’s looks.
To me, Debbie Harry is beautiful and Taylor Swift is not. PP says they look alike. They don’t. I’m starting to think some of you are face blind or something. All you can see is blonde hair? Their faces could not be more different.
The comment was mean and petty. That’s all I was pointing out. The whole title of this thread is mean and petty, so whatever carry on. It’s really just sad that it’s devolved into comparing women’s looks so yeah not gonna step back from that and at least gonna call it out. It’s pathetic.
You know what? When you put yourself out there as a celebrity you open yourself up to criticism. It’s sad that you’re treating her like she’s a 7th grader being picked on by bullies at school. Taylor is subpar looks-wise and talent- wise when compared to singers of the past. Debbie Harry bring only one of those much superior artists. Some of us want the entertainment industry to bring back the best instead of pedaling this mediocre crap. Okay?
Celebs put themselves out there for criticism, sure. So criticize her music, it’s mean and petty to just call someone ugly because you aren’t a fan of their music.
Taylor’s a public figure and I’m free to criticize whatever I want about her. In addition to making bland, cloying music, she’s also got, what I consider, a very unattractive face. Meanwhile, famous singers of the past were both beautiful and talented. I miss that.
You aren’t my mommy, you can’t put me in a corner. I’m allowed my opinion. It doesn’t have to be nice. That’s life.
Well you are acting like a churlish child right now! Keep on spouting off your nonsense because it will only make you look bad. Taylor Swift isn't bothered at all. She is living her best life. Here is a video clip..enjoy! ( of Taylor)
You don’t get it do you, I can’t stand her music! Of course she’s not bothered. She has no idea who I am. I wish I could say the same about her. I miss the days when singers looked and sounded like Whitney Houston. It’s a shame that someone so very blah on all counts is famous. She shouldn’t be. I don’t care if saying so makes my anonymous persona on a mommy board “look bad.” It’s called having basic discernment.
NP.
Whitney Houston?? Are you kidding me? I cannot stand her music. Flat out never understood her appeal. She makes your ears bleed! And she always had that air of condescending superiority, a look like she was sniffing something bad. THAT's your aesthetic? OK, makes sense now.
Anonymous wrote:Not only are her lyrics perpetually self-focused, they are also increasingly inauthentic as she continues to write songs as though she is a perpetually unlucky-in-love, middle class, millennial woman starring in a 90s rom com. She writes from the perspective of her fans, not from her own lived experience, and it shows:
(from "Paris" on Midnights, 2022): "Stumbled down pretend alleys, cheap wine, make believe it's champagne, I was taken by the view."
When was the last time Taylor Swift ran around with a guy drinking cheap wine and pretending it was champagne, and was "taken" by the view in a city like Paris? When she wrote this song, she was a multi-millionaire juggernaut with a host of Grammy's, a massive portfolio of homes, had been to Paris many times. When has Swift EVER had to drink cheap wine on a date? She dates successful musicians, actors, and athletes and is herself wealthy and successful.
It just doesn't ring true. It feels like what you write when you are intentionally trying to evoke a moment that the typical 30 year old, middle class, woman will relate to. But it's not real for her.
I don't understand what the point is for her to writing songs like this. I don't believe that came from her heart or was ripped from her actual journal. It feels like a calculated piece of fan service. And a lot of her music feels like this. There are exceptions (Antihero certainly feels like an authentic self reflection of her real life) but a lot of it sounds like this. I'd rather she took a looooong break and wrote an entire album like Antihero and dropped this "I'm just a girls, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her" schtick. But it to bed. She's done it. It's not who she is (I actually don't really think it's who she ever was, I think it's always been a bit of a put on) and there's no more need for more Swift songs like this in the world.
I would like her a lot more if she released less music and toured less, but what she released was more interesting, more innovative, more creative. I think she has the capacity for it but she has chosen to go the route of making as much money as she can. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable choice. But it's not one I respect *artistically*. I don't think it results in great work. I think it undermines the quality of her music.
I don’t understand this criticism. I just read and watched the show lessons in chemistry which I really enjoyed. I’m pretty sure the author of that book was never a chemist in the 1950s struggling with sexism in the sciences and then getting a cooking show. But she told the story beautifully and captured some archetypal type themes which I, also not a which I, also not a woman in the 1950s, or in the hard sciences, could relate to beautifully. Which I think is what Taylor does so well.
You are in a way right- I’m posting on the thread but not the poster you are responding to. I just hate Taylor’s themes.
“Look
What you made me do” is awful to me because we are always responsible for our own behavior
Getting revenge on a lover is not ok
Stalking a lover is not ok
End game is equating a person to figure in a chess board and not the way I would want to choose my life partner nor would I want to be chosen that way
Romeo and Juliet died
Even her gay pride video all the people are beautiful are “good” o disagree with that as a strategy.
I think she has vengeful and hurtful themes to her music. Thanks for helping me see that!
Some of this is just being cheeky. Have you actually listened to Look What You Made Me Do or watch her perform? You are taking it really literally. We all have vengeful and negative qualities to us. We all are jealous of people we love and even if we are rooting for them, might have uncomfortable feelings at some point in our life. We struggle with parenting even though most of us would give our lives for our children without a second thought. We think bad thoughts about our spouses at times when they annoy us or piss us off, even though we love them and are in committed marriages. This is just life, the good and the bad, and the simplicity and the complexity of being human.
DP. I agree that we all have negative emotions or qualities at times, and that exploring that is a ripe subject for art. I actually think Antihero is a great example of this and so relatable specifically because Swift is being so honest about the negative aspects of her own relationships and behaviors. I think we've all felt that way at times, and that song is cathartic because it rings so true.
But I actually do think PP has a point about some of the vengeful and hurtful themes in some of Swift's other music. Maybe not Look What You Made Me Do, which I agree is ironic, but Bad Blood and End Game are good examples. Sometimes she's tongue-in-cheek about it, but she's writing about these themes so often.
I think one reason it can annoy, and this might not be fair, is that people (correctly) perceive Swift as a very privileged person and there is only so much complaining about "being wronged" that people will take from someone that privileged. Like people embraced Beyonce's Lemonade revenge album because it was her breaking from a lifelong persona as someone who is in charge and doesn't get taken advantage of. Especially coming after some public reports of Jay's infidelity and the elevator video, I think it made people embrace her vulnerability. But it's the only time she's done that. Most of her music is about feeling powerful and confident and in charge, and a longtime spouse cheating feels like a justifiable reason to drop that and just feel hurt or vengeful.
But Taylor goes to this well over and over, and she's writing about relationships of just months or a few years, no marriage or kids, or sometimes friendships gone bad. While of course everyone feels hurt and vengeful about romantic and friend breakups sometimes, someone who complains about this stuff a lot starts to sound like they are just blaming others for their problems and failing to do the work on themselves to avoid all this conflict.
I mean I feel like it’s a theme in some songs, not in others. She definitely has themes that she feels most comfortable writing to as I think most artists, whether you are painting, writing songs music, movies, novels, do. This seems pretty common for anyone putting out art.
Do you have the same criticisms of say someone like Stephen King, who really likes the horror genre and exploring the human condition through similar techniques and themes, or Quentin Tarantino, which you can really tell his style and things that he likes to explore in his movies over and over.
Maybe people do have these criticisms, and we just hear so much more about Taylor because she is such a global phenomenon and is everywhere. I don’t know… I find it fascinating that she generates so much discussion on this board alone!
Yes, 100% many people have criticized both King and Tarantino for their reliance on certain themes and images in their art, for being to repetitive, and much of their work has been panned even while other works are heralded (people love Pulp Fiction but the Hateful Eight was widely disliked, King's early work is beloved in the horror genre but his more recent novels have been more uneven and gotten far less love).
One reason you will see more criticism of Swift is that she is so big and inescapable right now. This is the nature of great success, especially mainstream success. Both Tarantino and King are considered genre artists, so their audiences are smaller -- people who don't like violent films or horror novels are unlikely to make the effort to engage with either artist. As a writer, King will never have the level of fame or exposure of someone like Swift. And even Tarantino only makes a movie every few years -- there will be years that go by where his name isn't part of the conversation regarding the Oscars, for instance. But Taylor Swift is everywhere, she's inevitable. People are going to hear her music, read about her love life, hear about her Grammy nominations, she's always got a new album coming out, she's also in the press for something or other, whether it's Kelce or supporting Sophie Turner or speaking out about an issue she cares about. She is "overexposed" as they say, and that will ALWAYS result in more attention and thus more criticism for an artist. It's one reason why some artists actively avoid that level of fame, even if it means giving up some of the money that goes with it. It's a hard environment. But it's one Swift chose and aggressively pursued for herself.
I agree with what you say, but I’d argue that Pulp Fiction is a masterpiece. I’d say the same for Salem’s Lot. For me, all of Taylor Swift’s music, from start to finish, is terribly bland and mediocre, like Wonder white bread.
I wonder if her fans have ever heard, for instance, Debbie Harry’s music? She’s the real deal, beautiful, creative, artistic. I get that each generation needs its own stars, but surely, there’s got to be someone better out there than Taylor and yet she’s everywhere. I’m trying to read about what’s happening in Israel and I see that Taylor and Travis are spending Christmas in Kansas. We only know that because her PR team put it out there. She’s just awful.
What exactly makes Debbie Harry the real deal but Taylor not? They’re both beautiful, creative, and artistic. They write songs with the same themes (heartbreak, yearning, crazy things we do for love). I don’t see a huge difference between them. Debbie is stronger vocally but not by a whole lot anymore.
If you cannot see the massive difference in both talent and looks between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift, then I certainly won’t be able to explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Chanel purse to a Coach one. You either see the difference in style and quality and admire it or you don’t.
Okay, so you can’t explain the massive difference. Maybe because there just isn’t. They even look similar.
I can, but you still won’t get it. Debbie Harry was a revolutionary who basically invented punk rock. Taylor Swift’s music is the opposite of revolutionary. It’s reductive and redundant. It’s the same as what Debbie Gibson sang, not Debbie Harry.
As for looks, Debbie Harry has beautiful, large eyes and an aristocratic bone structure. Her birth mom was a concert pianist and it shows. Taylor Swift has tiny, mean looking slits for eyes and she looks country, which was why she started off in country. There is nothing remotely sophisticated about her.
Again, if you can’t see the difference I can’t explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Gap sweater to an Akris blouse. Maybe you can’t tell the difference, but I can.
New poster but I think you just need to step back. Mean looking slits for eyes? This just getting really petty. We get it you don’t like Taylor Swift. you don’t have to give a breakdown of why you think she’s ugly. It’s just weird.
Why should I take a step back? My opinion is just as valid as yours. Besides, you’re the one who is having a breakdown because I think Taylor is ugly, not me.
I was just calmly answering PP’s clearly rhetorical question about the differences she cannot see between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift’s looks.
To me, Debbie Harry is beautiful and Taylor Swift is not. PP says they look alike. They don’t. I’m starting to think some of you are face blind or something. All you can see is blonde hair? Their faces could not be more different.
The comment was mean and petty. That’s all I was pointing out. The whole title of this thread is mean and petty, so whatever carry on. It’s really just sad that it’s devolved into comparing women’s looks so yeah not gonna step back from that and at least gonna call it out. It’s pathetic.
You know what? When you put yourself out there as a celebrity you open yourself up to criticism. It’s sad that you’re treating her like she’s a 7th grader being picked on by bullies at school. Taylor is subpar looks-wise and talent- wise when compared to singers of the past. Debbie Harry bring only one of those much superior artists. Some of us want the entertainment industry to bring back the best instead of pedaling this mediocre crap. Okay?
Celebs put themselves out there for criticism, sure. So criticize her music, it’s mean and petty to just call someone ugly because you aren’t a fan of their music.
Taylor’s a public figure and I’m free to criticize whatever I want about her. In addition to making bland, cloying music, she’s also got, what I consider, a very unattractive face. Meanwhile, famous singers of the past were both beautiful and talented. I miss that.
You aren’t my mommy, you can’t put me in a corner. I’m allowed my opinion. It doesn’t have to be nice. That’s life.
Well you are acting like a churlish child right now! Keep on spouting off your nonsense because it will only make you look bad. Taylor Swift isn't bothered at all. She is living her best life. Here is a video clip..enjoy! ( of Taylor)
You don’t get it do you, I can’t stand her music! Of course she’s not bothered. She has no idea who I am. I wish I could say the same about her. I miss the days when singers looked and sounded like Whitney Houston. It’s a shame that someone so very blah on all counts is famous. She shouldn’t be. I don’t care if saying so makes my anonymous persona on a mommy board “look bad.” It’s called having basic discernment.
NP.
Whitney Houston?? Are you kidding me? I cannot stand her music. Flat out never understood her appeal. She makes your ears bleed! And she always had that air of condescending superiority, a look like she was sniffing something bad. THAT's your aesthetic? OK, makes sense now.
You sound racist. My aesthetic is broad: Whitney Houston, Debbie Harry, Pat Benatar, Dolly Parton, etc. just not plain Jane Taylor.l Swift.
Anonymous wrote:NP Debbie Harry was better looking in her prime for sure and also has 5-7 songs more iconic than any Taylor will ever have. I don’t think it’s fair though because this generation is not as physically attractive as blondies was. People grew up playing outside and getting sun more basic physical activity and vitality. The songwriting was better due to most children having a more rigorous and disciplined education with lots of classics and classical music exposure. More people took music classes and the classes were stricter and more demanding. More people with more high standards. Most new music is less iconic since the artists have less to offer the genre.
Perhaps, but do you know how the world defines an icon? The person is known by name across multiple generations.
That doesn't fit Debbie Harry at all. I could ask my 16 yo DD and her group of friends who Debbie Harry is and maybe 1 or 2 would know. They all know Taylor Swift, of course, and guess who else knows Taylor Swift? The Olds. All of my 40-something friends know her, same with 30-somethings, and even my 70 and 80 something parents/aunts/uncles know Taylor Swift.
There are not many artists who are actual icons but Taylor Swift definitely fits the criteria and is one of them.
Well her pop name is “Blondie” which will be better known than Taylor Swift in 40 years because the songs “the tide is high” “rapture”, “dreamers” “heart of glass” and others will have outlived Taylor’s inferior art 80 years after.
Anonymous wrote:Not only are her lyrics perpetually self-focused, they are also increasingly inauthentic as she continues to write songs as though she is a perpetually unlucky-in-love, middle class, millennial woman starring in a 90s rom com. She writes from the perspective of her fans, not from her own lived experience, and it shows:
(from "Paris" on Midnights, 2022): "Stumbled down pretend alleys, cheap wine, make believe it's champagne, I was taken by the view."
When was the last time Taylor Swift ran around with a guy drinking cheap wine and pretending it was champagne, and was "taken" by the view in a city like Paris? When she wrote this song, she was a multi-millionaire juggernaut with a host of Grammy's, a massive portfolio of homes, had been to Paris many times. When has Swift EVER had to drink cheap wine on a date? She dates successful musicians, actors, and athletes and is herself wealthy and successful.
It just doesn't ring true. It feels like what you write when you are intentionally trying to evoke a moment that the typical 30 year old, middle class, woman will relate to. But it's not real for her.
I don't understand what the point is for her to writing songs like this. I don't believe that came from her heart or was ripped from her actual journal. It feels like a calculated piece of fan service. And a lot of her music feels like this. There are exceptions (Antihero certainly feels like an authentic self reflection of her real life) but a lot of it sounds like this. I'd rather she took a looooong break and wrote an entire album like Antihero and dropped this "I'm just a girls, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her" schtick. But it to bed. She's done it. It's not who she is (I actually don't really think it's who she ever was, I think it's always been a bit of a put on) and there's no more need for more Swift songs like this in the world.
I would like her a lot more if she released less music and toured less, but what she released was more interesting, more innovative, more creative. I think she has the capacity for it but she has chosen to go the route of making as much money as she can. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable choice. But it's not one I respect *artistically*. I don't think it results in great work. I think it undermines the quality of her music.
I don’t understand this criticism. I just read and watched the show lessons in chemistry which I really enjoyed. I’m pretty sure the author of that book was never a chemist in the 1950s struggling with sexism in the sciences and then getting a cooking show. But she told the story beautifully and captured some archetypal type themes which I, also not a which I, also not a woman in the 1950s, or in the hard sciences, could relate to beautifully. Which I think is what Taylor does so well.
You are in a way right- I’m posting on the thread but not the poster you are responding to. I just hate Taylor’s themes.
“Look
What you made me do” is awful to me because we are always responsible for our own behavior
Getting revenge on a lover is not ok
Stalking a lover is not ok
End game is equating a person to figure in a chess board and not the way I would want to choose my life partner nor would I want to be chosen that way
Romeo and Juliet died
Even her gay pride video all the people are beautiful are “good” o disagree with that as a strategy.
I think she has vengeful and hurtful themes to her music. Thanks for helping me see that!
Some of this is just being cheeky. Have you actually listened to Look What You Made Me Do or watch her perform? You are taking it really literally. We all have vengeful and negative qualities to us. We all are jealous of people we love and even if we are rooting for them, might have uncomfortable feelings at some point in our life. We struggle with parenting even though most of us would give our lives for our children without a second thought. We think bad thoughts about our spouses at times when they annoy us or piss us off, even though we love them and are in committed marriages. This is just life, the good and the bad, and the simplicity and the complexity of being human.
DP. I agree that we all have negative emotions or qualities at times, and that exploring that is a ripe subject for art. I actually think Antihero is a great example of this and so relatable specifically because Swift is being so honest about the negative aspects of her own relationships and behaviors. I think we've all felt that way at times, and that song is cathartic because it rings so true.
But I actually do think PP has a point about some of the vengeful and hurtful themes in some of Swift's other music. Maybe not Look What You Made Me Do, which I agree is ironic, but Bad Blood and End Game are good examples. Sometimes she's tongue-in-cheek about it, but she's writing about these themes so often.
I think one reason it can annoy, and this might not be fair, is that people (correctly) perceive Swift as a very privileged person and there is only so much complaining about "being wronged" that people will take from someone that privileged. Like people embraced Beyonce's Lemonade revenge album because it was her breaking from a lifelong persona as someone who is in charge and doesn't get taken advantage of. Especially coming after some public reports of Jay's infidelity and the elevator video, I think it made people embrace her vulnerability. But it's the only time she's done that. Most of her music is about feeling powerful and confident and in charge, and a longtime spouse cheating feels like a justifiable reason to drop that and just feel hurt or vengeful.
But Taylor goes to this well over and over, and she's writing about relationships of just months or a few years, no marriage or kids, or sometimes friendships gone bad. While of course everyone feels hurt and vengeful about romantic and friend breakups sometimes, someone who complains about this stuff a lot starts to sound like they are just blaming others for their problems and failing to do the work on themselves to avoid all this conflict.
I mean I feel like it’s a theme in some songs, not in others. She definitely has themes that she feels most comfortable writing to as I think most artists, whether you are painting, writing songs music, movies, novels, do. This seems pretty common for anyone putting out art.
Do you have the same criticisms of say someone like Stephen King, who really likes the horror genre and exploring the human condition through similar techniques and themes, or Quentin Tarantino, which you can really tell his style and things that he likes to explore in his movies over and over.
Maybe people do have these criticisms, and we just hear so much more about Taylor because she is such a global phenomenon and is everywhere. I don’t know… I find it fascinating that she generates so much discussion on this board alone!
Yes, 100% many people have criticized both King and Tarantino for their reliance on certain themes and images in their art, for being to repetitive, and much of their work has been panned even while other works are heralded (people love Pulp Fiction but the Hateful Eight was widely disliked, King's early work is beloved in the horror genre but his more recent novels have been more uneven and gotten far less love).
One reason you will see more criticism of Swift is that she is so big and inescapable right now. This is the nature of great success, especially mainstream success. Both Tarantino and King are considered genre artists, so their audiences are smaller -- people who don't like violent films or horror novels are unlikely to make the effort to engage with either artist. As a writer, King will never have the level of fame or exposure of someone like Swift. And even Tarantino only makes a movie every few years -- there will be years that go by where his name isn't part of the conversation regarding the Oscars, for instance. But Taylor Swift is everywhere, she's inevitable. People are going to hear her music, read about her love life, hear about her Grammy nominations, she's always got a new album coming out, she's also in the press for something or other, whether it's Kelce or supporting Sophie Turner or speaking out about an issue she cares about. She is "overexposed" as they say, and that will ALWAYS result in more attention and thus more criticism for an artist. It's one reason why some artists actively avoid that level of fame, even if it means giving up some of the money that goes with it. It's a hard environment. But it's one Swift chose and aggressively pursued for herself.
I agree with what you say, but I’d argue that Pulp Fiction is a masterpiece. I’d say the same for Salem’s Lot. For me, all of Taylor Swift’s music, from start to finish, is terribly bland and mediocre, like Wonder white bread.
I wonder if her fans have ever heard, for instance, Debbie Harry’s music? She’s the real deal, beautiful, creative, artistic. I get that each generation needs its own stars, but surely, there’s got to be someone better out there than Taylor and yet she’s everywhere. I’m trying to read about what’s happening in Israel and I see that Taylor and Travis are spending Christmas in Kansas. We only know that because her PR team put it out there. She’s just awful.
What exactly makes Debbie Harry the real deal but Taylor not? They’re both beautiful, creative, and artistic. They write songs with the same themes (heartbreak, yearning, crazy things we do for love). I don’t see a huge difference between them. Debbie is stronger vocally but not by a whole lot anymore.
If you cannot see the massive difference in both talent and looks between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift, then I certainly won’t be able to explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Chanel purse to a Coach one. You either see the difference in style and quality and admire it or you don’t.
Okay, so you can’t explain the massive difference. Maybe because there just isn’t. They even look similar.
I can, but you still won’t get it. Debbie Harry was a revolutionary who basically invented punk rock. Taylor Swift’s music is the opposite of revolutionary. It’s reductive and redundant. It’s the same as what Debbie Gibson sang, not Debbie Harry.
As for looks, Debbie Harry has beautiful, large eyes and an aristocratic bone structure. Her birth mom was a concert pianist and it shows. Taylor Swift has tiny, mean looking slits for eyes and she looks country, which was why she started off in country. There is nothing remotely sophisticated about her.
Again, if you can’t see the difference I can’t explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Gap sweater to an Akris blouse. Maybe you can’t tell the difference, but I can.
New poster but I think you just need to step back. Mean looking slits for eyes? This just getting really petty. We get it you don’t like Taylor Swift. you don’t have to give a breakdown of why you think she’s ugly. It’s just weird.
Why should I take a step back? My opinion is just as valid as yours. Besides, you’re the one who is having a breakdown because I think Taylor is ugly, not me.
I was just calmly answering PP’s clearly rhetorical question about the differences she cannot see between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift’s looks.
To me, Debbie Harry is beautiful and Taylor Swift is not. PP says they look alike. They don’t. I’m starting to think some of you are face blind or something. All you can see is blonde hair? Their faces could not be more different.
The comment was mean and petty. That’s all I was pointing out. The whole title of this thread is mean and petty, so whatever carry on. It’s really just sad that it’s devolved into comparing women’s looks so yeah not gonna step back from that and at least gonna call it out. It’s pathetic.
You know what? When you put yourself out there as a celebrity you open yourself up to criticism. It’s sad that you’re treating her like she’s a 7th grader being picked on by bullies at school. Taylor is subpar looks-wise and talent- wise when compared to singers of the past. Debbie Harry bring only one of those much superior artists. Some of us want the entertainment industry to bring back the best instead of pedaling this mediocre crap. Okay?
Celebs put themselves out there for criticism, sure. So criticize her music, it’s mean and petty to just call someone ugly because you aren’t a fan of their music.
Taylor’s a public figure and I’m free to criticize whatever I want about her. In addition to making bland, cloying music, she’s also got, what I consider, a very unattractive face. Meanwhile, famous singers of the past were both beautiful and talented. I miss that.
You aren’t my mommy, you can’t put me in a corner. I’m allowed my opinion. It doesn’t have to be nice. That’s life.
Well you are acting like a churlish child right now! Keep on spouting off your nonsense because it will only make you look bad. Taylor Swift isn't bothered at all. She is living her best life. Here is a video clip..enjoy! ( of Taylor)
You don’t get it do you, I can’t stand her music! Of course she’s not bothered. She has no idea who I am. I wish I could say the same about her. I miss the days when singers looked and sounded like Whitney Houston. It’s a shame that someone so very blah on all counts is famous. She shouldn’t be. I don’t care if saying so makes my anonymous persona on a mommy board “look bad.” It’s called having basic discernment.
NP.
Whitney Houston?? Are you kidding me? I cannot stand her music. Flat out never understood her appeal. She makes your ears bleed! And she always had that air of condescending superiority, a look like she was sniffing something bad. THAT's your aesthetic? OK, makes sense now.
You sound racist. My aesthetic is broad: Whitney Houston, Debbie Harry, Pat Benatar, Dolly Parton, etc. just not plain Jane Taylor.l Swift.
The hell? Because I legit can't stand Whitney Houston I'm a racist? GTFOH. You said you missed it when singers looked and sounded like Whitney Houston, not Whitney House, Debbie Harry, Pat Benatar and Dolly Parton. Plenty of people can't stand Whitney Houston. I'm one of them. It's OK to have that opinion. Right?
Anonymous wrote:Not only are her lyrics perpetually self-focused, they are also increasingly inauthentic as she continues to write songs as though she is a perpetually unlucky-in-love, middle class, millennial woman starring in a 90s rom com. She writes from the perspective of her fans, not from her own lived experience, and it shows:
(from "Paris" on Midnights, 2022): "Stumbled down pretend alleys, cheap wine, make believe it's champagne, I was taken by the view."
When was the last time Taylor Swift ran around with a guy drinking cheap wine and pretending it was champagne, and was "taken" by the view in a city like Paris? When she wrote this song, she was a multi-millionaire juggernaut with a host of Grammy's, a massive portfolio of homes, had been to Paris many times. When has Swift EVER had to drink cheap wine on a date? She dates successful musicians, actors, and athletes and is herself wealthy and successful.
It just doesn't ring true. It feels like what you write when you are intentionally trying to evoke a moment that the typical 30 year old, middle class, woman will relate to. But it's not real for her.
I don't understand what the point is for her to writing songs like this. I don't believe that came from her heart or was ripped from her actual journal. It feels like a calculated piece of fan service. And a lot of her music feels like this. There are exceptions (Antihero certainly feels like an authentic self reflection of her real life) but a lot of it sounds like this. I'd rather she took a looooong break and wrote an entire album like Antihero and dropped this "I'm just a girls, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her" schtick. But it to bed. She's done it. It's not who she is (I actually don't really think it's who she ever was, I think it's always been a bit of a put on) and there's no more need for more Swift songs like this in the world.
I would like her a lot more if she released less music and toured less, but what she released was more interesting, more innovative, more creative. I think she has the capacity for it but she has chosen to go the route of making as much money as she can. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable choice. But it's not one I respect *artistically*. I don't think it results in great work. I think it undermines the quality of her music.
I don’t understand this criticism. I just read and watched the show lessons in chemistry which I really enjoyed. I’m pretty sure the author of that book was never a chemist in the 1950s struggling with sexism in the sciences and then getting a cooking show. But she told the story beautifully and captured some archetypal type themes which I, also not a which I, also not a woman in the 1950s, or in the hard sciences, could relate to beautifully. Which I think is what Taylor does so well.
You are in a way right- I’m posting on the thread but not the poster you are responding to. I just hate Taylor’s themes.
“Look
What you made me do” is awful to me because we are always responsible for our own behavior
Getting revenge on a lover is not ok
Stalking a lover is not ok
End game is equating a person to figure in a chess board and not the way I would want to choose my life partner nor would I want to be chosen that way
Romeo and Juliet died
Even her gay pride video all the people are beautiful are “good” o disagree with that as a strategy.
I think she has vengeful and hurtful themes to her music. Thanks for helping me see that!
Some of this is just being cheeky. Have you actually listened to Look What You Made Me Do or watch her perform? You are taking it really literally. We all have vengeful and negative qualities to us. We all are jealous of people we love and even if we are rooting for them, might have uncomfortable feelings at some point in our life. We struggle with parenting even though most of us would give our lives for our children without a second thought. We think bad thoughts about our spouses at times when they annoy us or piss us off, even though we love them and are in committed marriages. This is just life, the good and the bad, and the simplicity and the complexity of being human.
DP. I agree that we all have negative emotions or qualities at times, and that exploring that is a ripe subject for art. I actually think Antihero is a great example of this and so relatable specifically because Swift is being so honest about the negative aspects of her own relationships and behaviors. I think we've all felt that way at times, and that song is cathartic because it rings so true.
But I actually do think PP has a point about some of the vengeful and hurtful themes in some of Swift's other music. Maybe not Look What You Made Me Do, which I agree is ironic, but Bad Blood and End Game are good examples. Sometimes she's tongue-in-cheek about it, but she's writing about these themes so often.
I think one reason it can annoy, and this might not be fair, is that people (correctly) perceive Swift as a very privileged person and there is only so much complaining about "being wronged" that people will take from someone that privileged. Like people embraced Beyonce's Lemonade revenge album because it was her breaking from a lifelong persona as someone who is in charge and doesn't get taken advantage of. Especially coming after some public reports of Jay's infidelity and the elevator video, I think it made people embrace her vulnerability. But it's the only time she's done that. Most of her music is about feeling powerful and confident and in charge, and a longtime spouse cheating feels like a justifiable reason to drop that and just feel hurt or vengeful.
But Taylor goes to this well over and over, and she's writing about relationships of just months or a few years, no marriage or kids, or sometimes friendships gone bad. While of course everyone feels hurt and vengeful about romantic and friend breakups sometimes, someone who complains about this stuff a lot starts to sound like they are just blaming others for their problems and failing to do the work on themselves to avoid all this conflict.
I mean I feel like it’s a theme in some songs, not in others. She definitely has themes that she feels most comfortable writing to as I think most artists, whether you are painting, writing songs music, movies, novels, do. This seems pretty common for anyone putting out art.
Do you have the same criticisms of say someone like Stephen King, who really likes the horror genre and exploring the human condition through similar techniques and themes, or Quentin Tarantino, which you can really tell his style and things that he likes to explore in his movies over and over.
Maybe people do have these criticisms, and we just hear so much more about Taylor because she is such a global phenomenon and is everywhere. I don’t know… I find it fascinating that she generates so much discussion on this board alone!
Yes, 100% many people have criticized both King and Tarantino for their reliance on certain themes and images in their art, for being to repetitive, and much of their work has been panned even while other works are heralded (people love Pulp Fiction but the Hateful Eight was widely disliked, King's early work is beloved in the horror genre but his more recent novels have been more uneven and gotten far less love).
One reason you will see more criticism of Swift is that she is so big and inescapable right now. This is the nature of great success, especially mainstream success. Both Tarantino and King are considered genre artists, so their audiences are smaller -- people who don't like violent films or horror novels are unlikely to make the effort to engage with either artist. As a writer, King will never have the level of fame or exposure of someone like Swift. And even Tarantino only makes a movie every few years -- there will be years that go by where his name isn't part of the conversation regarding the Oscars, for instance. But Taylor Swift is everywhere, she's inevitable. People are going to hear her music, read about her love life, hear about her Grammy nominations, she's always got a new album coming out, she's also in the press for something or other, whether it's Kelce or supporting Sophie Turner or speaking out about an issue she cares about. She is "overexposed" as they say, and that will ALWAYS result in more attention and thus more criticism for an artist. It's one reason why some artists actively avoid that level of fame, even if it means giving up some of the money that goes with it. It's a hard environment. But it's one Swift chose and aggressively pursued for herself.
I agree with what you say, but I’d argue that Pulp Fiction is a masterpiece. I’d say the same for Salem’s Lot. For me, all of Taylor Swift’s music, from start to finish, is terribly bland and mediocre, like Wonder white bread.
I wonder if her fans have ever heard, for instance, Debbie Harry’s music? She’s the real deal, beautiful, creative, artistic. I get that each generation needs its own stars, but surely, there’s got to be someone better out there than Taylor and yet she’s everywhere. I’m trying to read about what’s happening in Israel and I see that Taylor and Travis are spending Christmas in Kansas. We only know that because her PR team put it out there. She’s just awful.
What exactly makes Debbie Harry the real deal but Taylor not? They’re both beautiful, creative, and artistic. They write songs with the same themes (heartbreak, yearning, crazy things we do for love). I don’t see a huge difference between them. Debbie is stronger vocally but not by a whole lot anymore.
If you cannot see the massive difference in both talent and looks between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift, then I certainly won’t be able to explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Chanel purse to a Coach one. You either see the difference in style and quality and admire it or you don’t.
Okay, so you can’t explain the massive difference. Maybe because there just isn’t. They even look similar.
I can, but you still won’t get it. Debbie Harry was a revolutionary who basically invented punk rock. Taylor Swift’s music is the opposite of revolutionary. It’s reductive and redundant. It’s the same as what Debbie Gibson sang, not Debbie Harry.
As for looks, Debbie Harry has beautiful, large eyes and an aristocratic bone structure. Her birth mom was a concert pianist and it shows. Taylor Swift has tiny, mean looking slits for eyes and she looks country, which was why she started off in country. There is nothing remotely sophisticated about her.
Again, if you can’t see the difference I can’t explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Gap sweater to an Akris blouse. Maybe you can’t tell the difference, but I can.
New poster but I think you just need to step back. Mean looking slits for eyes? This just getting really petty. We get it you don’t like Taylor Swift. you don’t have to give a breakdown of why you think she’s ugly. It’s just weird.
Why should I take a step back? My opinion is just as valid as yours. Besides, you’re the one who is having a breakdown because I think Taylor is ugly, not me.
I was just calmly answering PP’s clearly rhetorical question about the differences she cannot see between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift’s looks.
To me, Debbie Harry is beautiful and Taylor Swift is not. PP says they look alike. They don’t. I’m starting to think some of you are face blind or something. All you can see is blonde hair? Their faces could not be more different.
The comment was mean and petty. That’s all I was pointing out. The whole title of this thread is mean and petty, so whatever carry on. It’s really just sad that it’s devolved into comparing women’s looks so yeah not gonna step back from that and at least gonna call it out. It’s pathetic.
You know what? When you put yourself out there as a celebrity you open yourself up to criticism. It’s sad that you’re treating her like she’s a 7th grader being picked on by bullies at school. Taylor is subpar looks-wise and talent- wise when compared to singers of the past. Debbie Harry bring only one of those much superior artists. Some of us want the entertainment industry to bring back the best instead of pedaling this mediocre crap. Okay?
Celebs put themselves out there for criticism, sure. So criticize her music, it’s mean and petty to just call someone ugly because you aren’t a fan of their music.
Taylor’s a public figure and I’m free to criticize whatever I want about her. In addition to making bland, cloying music, she’s also got, what I consider, a very unattractive face. Meanwhile, famous singers of the past were both beautiful and talented. I miss that.
You aren’t my mommy, you can’t put me in a corner. I’m allowed my opinion. It doesn’t have to be nice. That’s life.
Well you are acting like a churlish child right now! Keep on spouting off your nonsense because it will only make you look bad. Taylor Swift isn't bothered at all. She is living her best life. Here is a video clip..enjoy! ( of Taylor)
You don’t get it do you, I can’t stand her music! Of course she’s not bothered. She has no idea who I am. I wish I could say the same about her. I miss the days when singers looked and sounded like Whitney Houston. It’s a shame that someone so very blah on all counts is famous. She shouldn’t be. I don’t care if saying so makes my anonymous persona on a mommy board “look bad.” It’s called having basic discernment.
NP.
Whitney Houston?? Are you kidding me? I cannot stand her music. Flat out never understood her appeal. She makes your ears bleed! And she always had that air of condescending superiority, a look like she was sniffing something bad. THAT's your aesthetic? OK, makes sense now.
You sound racist. My aesthetic is broad: Whitney Houston, Debbie Harry, Pat Benatar, Dolly Parton, etc. just not plain Jane Taylor.l Swift.
The hell? Because I legit can't stand Whitney Houston I'm a racist? GTFOH. You said you missed it when singers looked and sounded like Whitney Houston, not Whitney House, Debbie Harry, Pat Benatar and Dolly Parton. Plenty of people can't stand Whitney Houston. I'm one of them. It's OK to have that opinion. Right?
I thought you were racist because of the way you phrased “That’s your aesthetic? Okay makes sense now.”
What exactly did you mean by that? It sounds pretty darn racist to me. (And I’m lily White.)
But sure, I respect your opinion that Whitney Houston was a good singer, even though I think she was beautiful and had a breathtaking voice. (And you are literally the first person I have ever heard who didn’t like her. But I’m sure you are not alone.)
Why can’t you agree to disagree with other like me about Taylor? It boggles my mind why you are so upset about people not liking her or her music. I couldn’t care less about what you think about Whitney Houston. It doesn’t affect my enjoyment of her music. Why does my opinion about Taylor affect you? That’s bizarre.
Anonymous wrote:Not only are her lyrics perpetually self-focused, they are also increasingly inauthentic as she continues to write songs as though she is a perpetually unlucky-in-love, middle class, millennial woman starring in a 90s rom com. She writes from the perspective of her fans, not from her own lived experience, and it shows:
(from "Paris" on Midnights, 2022): "Stumbled down pretend alleys, cheap wine, make believe it's champagne, I was taken by the view."
When was the last time Taylor Swift ran around with a guy drinking cheap wine and pretending it was champagne, and was "taken" by the view in a city like Paris? When she wrote this song, she was a multi-millionaire juggernaut with a host of Grammy's, a massive portfolio of homes, had been to Paris many times. When has Swift EVER had to drink cheap wine on a date? She dates successful musicians, actors, and athletes and is herself wealthy and successful.
It just doesn't ring true. It feels like what you write when you are intentionally trying to evoke a moment that the typical 30 year old, middle class, woman will relate to. But it's not real for her.
I don't understand what the point is for her to writing songs like this. I don't believe that came from her heart or was ripped from her actual journal. It feels like a calculated piece of fan service. And a lot of her music feels like this. There are exceptions (Antihero certainly feels like an authentic self reflection of her real life) but a lot of it sounds like this. I'd rather she took a looooong break and wrote an entire album like Antihero and dropped this "I'm just a girls, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her" schtick. But it to bed. She's done it. It's not who she is (I actually don't really think it's who she ever was, I think it's always been a bit of a put on) and there's no more need for more Swift songs like this in the world.
I would like her a lot more if she released less music and toured less, but what she released was more interesting, more innovative, more creative. I think she has the capacity for it but she has chosen to go the route of making as much money as she can. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable choice. But it's not one I respect *artistically*. I don't think it results in great work. I think it undermines the quality of her music.
I don’t understand this criticism. I just read and watched the show lessons in chemistry which I really enjoyed. I’m pretty sure the author of that book was never a chemist in the 1950s struggling with sexism in the sciences and then getting a cooking show. But she told the story beautifully and captured some archetypal type themes which I, also not a which I, also not a woman in the 1950s, or in the hard sciences, could relate to beautifully. Which I think is what Taylor does so well.
You are in a way right- I’m posting on the thread but not the poster you are responding to. I just hate Taylor’s themes.
“Look
What you made me do” is awful to me because we are always responsible for our own behavior
Getting revenge on a lover is not ok
Stalking a lover is not ok
End game is equating a person to figure in a chess board and not the way I would want to choose my life partner nor would I want to be chosen that way
Romeo and Juliet died
Even her gay pride video all the people are beautiful are “good” o disagree with that as a strategy.
I think she has vengeful and hurtful themes to her music. Thanks for helping me see that!
Some of this is just being cheeky. Have you actually listened to Look What You Made Me Do or watch her perform? You are taking it really literally. We all have vengeful and negative qualities to us. We all are jealous of people we love and even if we are rooting for them, might have uncomfortable feelings at some point in our life. We struggle with parenting even though most of us would give our lives for our children without a second thought. We think bad thoughts about our spouses at times when they annoy us or piss us off, even though we love them and are in committed marriages. This is just life, the good and the bad, and the simplicity and the complexity of being human.
DP. I agree that we all have negative emotions or qualities at times, and that exploring that is a ripe subject for art. I actually think Antihero is a great example of this and so relatable specifically because Swift is being so honest about the negative aspects of her own relationships and behaviors. I think we've all felt that way at times, and that song is cathartic because it rings so true.
But I actually do think PP has a point about some of the vengeful and hurtful themes in some of Swift's other music. Maybe not Look What You Made Me Do, which I agree is ironic, but Bad Blood and End Game are good examples. Sometimes she's tongue-in-cheek about it, but she's writing about these themes so often.
I think one reason it can annoy, and this might not be fair, is that people (correctly) perceive Swift as a very privileged person and there is only so much complaining about "being wronged" that people will take from someone that privileged. Like people embraced Beyonce's Lemonade revenge album because it was her breaking from a lifelong persona as someone who is in charge and doesn't get taken advantage of. Especially coming after some public reports of Jay's infidelity and the elevator video, I think it made people embrace her vulnerability. But it's the only time she's done that. Most of her music is about feeling powerful and confident and in charge, and a longtime spouse cheating feels like a justifiable reason to drop that and just feel hurt or vengeful.
But Taylor goes to this well over and over, and she's writing about relationships of just months or a few years, no marriage or kids, or sometimes friendships gone bad. While of course everyone feels hurt and vengeful about romantic and friend breakups sometimes, someone who complains about this stuff a lot starts to sound like they are just blaming others for their problems and failing to do the work on themselves to avoid all this conflict.
I mean I feel like it’s a theme in some songs, not in others. She definitely has themes that she feels most comfortable writing to as I think most artists, whether you are painting, writing songs music, movies, novels, do. This seems pretty common for anyone putting out art.
Do you have the same criticisms of say someone like Stephen King, who really likes the horror genre and exploring the human condition through similar techniques and themes, or Quentin Tarantino, which you can really tell his style and things that he likes to explore in his movies over and over.
Maybe people do have these criticisms, and we just hear so much more about Taylor because she is such a global phenomenon and is everywhere. I don’t know… I find it fascinating that she generates so much discussion on this board alone!
Yes, 100% many people have criticized both King and Tarantino for their reliance on certain themes and images in their art, for being to repetitive, and much of their work has been panned even while other works are heralded (people love Pulp Fiction but the Hateful Eight was widely disliked, King's early work is beloved in the horror genre but his more recent novels have been more uneven and gotten far less love).
One reason you will see more criticism of Swift is that she is so big and inescapable right now. This is the nature of great success, especially mainstream success. Both Tarantino and King are considered genre artists, so their audiences are smaller -- people who don't like violent films or horror novels are unlikely to make the effort to engage with either artist. As a writer, King will never have the level of fame or exposure of someone like Swift. And even Tarantino only makes a movie every few years -- there will be years that go by where his name isn't part of the conversation regarding the Oscars, for instance. But Taylor Swift is everywhere, she's inevitable. People are going to hear her music, read about her love life, hear about her Grammy nominations, she's always got a new album coming out, she's also in the press for something or other, whether it's Kelce or supporting Sophie Turner or speaking out about an issue she cares about. She is "overexposed" as they say, and that will ALWAYS result in more attention and thus more criticism for an artist. It's one reason why some artists actively avoid that level of fame, even if it means giving up some of the money that goes with it. It's a hard environment. But it's one Swift chose and aggressively pursued for herself.
I agree with what you say, but I’d argue that Pulp Fiction is a masterpiece. I’d say the same for Salem’s Lot. For me, all of Taylor Swift’s music, from start to finish, is terribly bland and mediocre, like Wonder white bread.
I wonder if her fans have ever heard, for instance, Debbie Harry’s music? She’s the real deal, beautiful, creative, artistic. I get that each generation needs its own stars, but surely, there’s got to be someone better out there than Taylor and yet she’s everywhere. I’m trying to read about what’s happening in Israel and I see that Taylor and Travis are spending Christmas in Kansas. We only know that because her PR team put it out there. She’s just awful.
What exactly makes Debbie Harry the real deal but Taylor not? They’re both beautiful, creative, and artistic. They write songs with the same themes (heartbreak, yearning, crazy things we do for love). I don’t see a huge difference between them. Debbie is stronger vocally but not by a whole lot anymore.
If you cannot see the massive difference in both talent and looks between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift, then I certainly won’t be able to explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Chanel purse to a Coach one. You either see the difference in style and quality and admire it or you don’t.
Okay, so you can’t explain the massive difference. Maybe because there just isn’t. They even look similar.
I can, but you still won’t get it. Debbie Harry was a revolutionary who basically invented punk rock. Taylor Swift’s music is the opposite of revolutionary. It’s reductive and redundant. It’s the same as what Debbie Gibson sang, not Debbie Harry.
As for looks, Debbie Harry has beautiful, large eyes and an aristocratic bone structure. Her birth mom was a concert pianist and it shows. Taylor Swift has tiny, mean looking slits for eyes and she looks country, which was why she started off in country. There is nothing remotely sophisticated about her.
Again, if you can’t see the difference I can’t explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Gap sweater to an Akris blouse. Maybe you can’t tell the difference, but I can.
New poster but I think you just need to step back. Mean looking slits for eyes? This just getting really petty. We get it you don’t like Taylor Swift. you don’t have to give a breakdown of why you think she’s ugly. It’s just weird.
Why should I take a step back? My opinion is just as valid as yours. Besides, you’re the one who is having a breakdown because I think Taylor is ugly, not me.
I was just calmly answering PP’s clearly rhetorical question about the differences she cannot see between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift’s looks.
To me, Debbie Harry is beautiful and Taylor Swift is not. PP says they look alike. They don’t. I’m starting to think some of you are face blind or something. All you can see is blonde hair? Their faces could not be more different.
The comment was mean and petty. That’s all I was pointing out. The whole title of this thread is mean and petty, so whatever carry on. It’s really just sad that it’s devolved into comparing women’s looks so yeah not gonna step back from that and at least gonna call it out. It’s pathetic.
You know what? When you put yourself out there as a celebrity you open yourself up to criticism. It’s sad that you’re treating her like she’s a 7th grader being picked on by bullies at school. Taylor is subpar looks-wise and talent- wise when compared to singers of the past. Debbie Harry bring only one of those much superior artists. Some of us want the entertainment industry to bring back the best instead of pedaling this mediocre crap. Okay?
Celebs put themselves out there for criticism, sure. So criticize her music, it’s mean and petty to just call someone ugly because you aren’t a fan of their music.
Taylor’s a public figure and I’m free to criticize whatever I want about her. In addition to making bland, cloying music, she’s also got, what I consider, a very unattractive face. Meanwhile, famous singers of the past were both beautiful and talented. I miss that.
You aren’t my mommy, you can’t put me in a corner. I’m allowed my opinion. It doesn’t have to be nice. That’s life.
Well you are acting like a churlish child right now! Keep on spouting off your nonsense because it will only make you look bad. Taylor Swift isn't bothered at all. She is living her best life. Here is a video clip..enjoy! ( of Taylor)
You don’t get it do you, I can’t stand her music! Of course she’s not bothered. She has no idea who I am. I wish I could say the same about her. I miss the days when singers looked and sounded like Whitney Houston. It’s a shame that someone so very blah on all counts is famous. She shouldn’t be. I don’t care if saying so makes my anonymous persona on a mommy board “look bad.” It’s called having basic discernment.
NP.
Whitney Houston?? Are you kidding me? I cannot stand her music. Flat out never understood her appeal. She makes your ears bleed! And she always had that air of condescending superiority, a look like she was sniffing something bad. THAT's your aesthetic? OK, makes sense now.
You sound racist. My aesthetic is broad: Whitney Houston, Debbie Harry, Pat Benatar, Dolly Parton, etc. just not plain Jane Taylor.l Swift.
The hell? Because I legit can't stand Whitney Houston I'm a racist? GTFOH. You said you missed it when singers looked and sounded like Whitney Houston, not Whitney House, Debbie Harry, Pat Benatar and Dolly Parton. Plenty of people can't stand Whitney Houston. I'm one of them. It's OK to have that opinion. Right?
I thought you were racist because of the way you phrased “That’s your aesthetic? Okay makes sense now.”
What exactly did you mean by that? It sounds pretty darn racist to me. (And I’m lily White.)
But sure, I respect your opinion that Whitney Houston was a good singer, even though I think she was beautiful and had a breathtaking voice. (And you are literally the first person I have ever heard who didn’t like her. But I’m sure you are not alone.)
Why can’t you agree to disagree with other like me about Taylor? It boggles my mind why you are so upset about people not liking her or her music. I couldn’t care less about what you think about Whitney Houston. It doesn’t affect my enjoyment of her music. Why does my opinion about Taylor affect you? That’s bizarre.
Aesthetic meaning taste, or discernment in your words.
I actually didn’t say anything about Taylor Swift. As I said, NP. I was just reading along and saw an artist mentioned that I loathed and always have. Made me jump in. Why does my opinion about Whitney Houston affect you?
Anonymous wrote:Not only are her lyrics perpetually self-focused, they are also increasingly inauthentic as she continues to write songs as though she is a perpetually unlucky-in-love, middle class, millennial woman starring in a 90s rom com. She writes from the perspective of her fans, not from her own lived experience, and it shows:
(from "Paris" on Midnights, 2022): "Stumbled down pretend alleys, cheap wine, make believe it's champagne, I was taken by the view."
When was the last time Taylor Swift ran around with a guy drinking cheap wine and pretending it was champagne, and was "taken" by the view in a city like Paris? When she wrote this song, she was a multi-millionaire juggernaut with a host of Grammy's, a massive portfolio of homes, had been to Paris many times. When has Swift EVER had to drink cheap wine on a date? She dates successful musicians, actors, and athletes and is herself wealthy and successful.
It just doesn't ring true. It feels like what you write when you are intentionally trying to evoke a moment that the typical 30 year old, middle class, woman will relate to. But it's not real for her.
I don't understand what the point is for her to writing songs like this. I don't believe that came from her heart or was ripped from her actual journal. It feels like a calculated piece of fan service. And a lot of her music feels like this. There are exceptions (Antihero certainly feels like an authentic self reflection of her real life) but a lot of it sounds like this. I'd rather she took a looooong break and wrote an entire album like Antihero and dropped this "I'm just a girls, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her" schtick. But it to bed. She's done it. It's not who she is (I actually don't really think it's who she ever was, I think it's always been a bit of a put on) and there's no more need for more Swift songs like this in the world.
I would like her a lot more if she released less music and toured less, but what she released was more interesting, more innovative, more creative. I think she has the capacity for it but she has chosen to go the route of making as much money as she can. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable choice. But it's not one I respect *artistically*. I don't think it results in great work. I think it undermines the quality of her music.
I don’t understand this criticism. I just read and watched the show lessons in chemistry which I really enjoyed. I’m pretty sure the author of that book was never a chemist in the 1950s struggling with sexism in the sciences and then getting a cooking show. But she told the story beautifully and captured some archetypal type themes which I, also not a which I, also not a woman in the 1950s, or in the hard sciences, could relate to beautifully. Which I think is what Taylor does so well.
You are in a way right- I’m posting on the thread but not the poster you are responding to. I just hate Taylor’s themes.
“Look
What you made me do” is awful to me because we are always responsible for our own behavior
Getting revenge on a lover is not ok
Stalking a lover is not ok
End game is equating a person to figure in a chess board and not the way I would want to choose my life partner nor would I want to be chosen that way
Romeo and Juliet died
Even her gay pride video all the people are beautiful are “good” o disagree with that as a strategy.
I think she has vengeful and hurtful themes to her music. Thanks for helping me see that!
Some of this is just being cheeky. Have you actually listened to Look What You Made Me Do or watch her perform? You are taking it really literally. We all have vengeful and negative qualities to us. We all are jealous of people we love and even if we are rooting for them, might have uncomfortable feelings at some point in our life. We struggle with parenting even though most of us would give our lives for our children without a second thought. We think bad thoughts about our spouses at times when they annoy us or piss us off, even though we love them and are in committed marriages. This is just life, the good and the bad, and the simplicity and the complexity of being human.
DP. I agree that we all have negative emotions or qualities at times, and that exploring that is a ripe subject for art. I actually think Antihero is a great example of this and so relatable specifically because Swift is being so honest about the negative aspects of her own relationships and behaviors. I think we've all felt that way at times, and that song is cathartic because it rings so true.
But I actually do think PP has a point about some of the vengeful and hurtful themes in some of Swift's other music. Maybe not Look What You Made Me Do, which I agree is ironic, but Bad Blood and End Game are good examples. Sometimes she's tongue-in-cheek about it, but she's writing about these themes so often.
I think one reason it can annoy, and this might not be fair, is that people (correctly) perceive Swift as a very privileged person and there is only so much complaining about "being wronged" that people will take from someone that privileged. Like people embraced Beyonce's Lemonade revenge album because it was her breaking from a lifelong persona as someone who is in charge and doesn't get taken advantage of. Especially coming after some public reports of Jay's infidelity and the elevator video, I think it made people embrace her vulnerability. But it's the only time she's done that. Most of her music is about feeling powerful and confident and in charge, and a longtime spouse cheating feels like a justifiable reason to drop that and just feel hurt or vengeful.
But Taylor goes to this well over and over, and she's writing about relationships of just months or a few years, no marriage or kids, or sometimes friendships gone bad. While of course everyone feels hurt and vengeful about romantic and friend breakups sometimes, someone who complains about this stuff a lot starts to sound like they are just blaming others for their problems and failing to do the work on themselves to avoid all this conflict.
I mean I feel like it’s a theme in some songs, not in others. She definitely has themes that she feels most comfortable writing to as I think most artists, whether you are painting, writing songs music, movies, novels, do. This seems pretty common for anyone putting out art.
Do you have the same criticisms of say someone like Stephen King, who really likes the horror genre and exploring the human condition through similar techniques and themes, or Quentin Tarantino, which you can really tell his style and things that he likes to explore in his movies over and over.
Maybe people do have these criticisms, and we just hear so much more about Taylor because she is such a global phenomenon and is everywhere. I don’t know… I find it fascinating that she generates so much discussion on this board alone!
Yes, 100% many people have criticized both King and Tarantino for their reliance on certain themes and images in their art, for being to repetitive, and much of their work has been panned even while other works are heralded (people love Pulp Fiction but the Hateful Eight was widely disliked, King's early work is beloved in the horror genre but his more recent novels have been more uneven and gotten far less love).
One reason you will see more criticism of Swift is that she is so big and inescapable right now. This is the nature of great success, especially mainstream success. Both Tarantino and King are considered genre artists, so their audiences are smaller -- people who don't like violent films or horror novels are unlikely to make the effort to engage with either artist. As a writer, King will never have the level of fame or exposure of someone like Swift. And even Tarantino only makes a movie every few years -- there will be years that go by where his name isn't part of the conversation regarding the Oscars, for instance. But Taylor Swift is everywhere, she's inevitable. People are going to hear her music, read about her love life, hear about her Grammy nominations, she's always got a new album coming out, she's also in the press for something or other, whether it's Kelce or supporting Sophie Turner or speaking out about an issue she cares about. She is "overexposed" as they say, and that will ALWAYS result in more attention and thus more criticism for an artist. It's one reason why some artists actively avoid that level of fame, even if it means giving up some of the money that goes with it. It's a hard environment. But it's one Swift chose and aggressively pursued for herself.
I agree with what you say, but I’d argue that Pulp Fiction is a masterpiece. I’d say the same for Salem’s Lot. For me, all of Taylor Swift’s music, from start to finish, is terribly bland and mediocre, like Wonder white bread.
I wonder if her fans have ever heard, for instance, Debbie Harry’s music? She’s the real deal, beautiful, creative, artistic. I get that each generation needs its own stars, but surely, there’s got to be someone better out there than Taylor and yet she’s everywhere. I’m trying to read about what’s happening in Israel and I see that Taylor and Travis are spending Christmas in Kansas. We only know that because her PR team put it out there. She’s just awful.
What exactly makes Debbie Harry the real deal but Taylor not? They’re both beautiful, creative, and artistic. They write songs with the same themes (heartbreak, yearning, crazy things we do for love). I don’t see a huge difference between them. Debbie is stronger vocally but not by a whole lot anymore.
If you cannot see the massive difference in both talent and looks between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift, then I certainly won’t be able to explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Chanel purse to a Coach one. You either see the difference in style and quality and admire it or you don’t.
Okay, so you can’t explain the massive difference. Maybe because there just isn’t. They even look similar.
I can, but you still won’t get it. Debbie Harry was a revolutionary who basically invented punk rock. Taylor Swift’s music is the opposite of revolutionary. It’s reductive and redundant. It’s the same as what Debbie Gibson sang, not Debbie Harry.
As for looks, Debbie Harry has beautiful, large eyes and an aristocratic bone structure. Her birth mom was a concert pianist and it shows. Taylor Swift has tiny, mean looking slits for eyes and she looks country, which was why she started off in country. There is nothing remotely sophisticated about her.
Again, if you can’t see the difference I can’t explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Gap sweater to an Akris blouse. Maybe you can’t tell the difference, but I can.
New poster but I think you just need to step back. Mean looking slits for eyes? This just getting really petty. We get it you don’t like Taylor Swift. you don’t have to give a breakdown of why you think she’s ugly. It’s just weird.
Why should I take a step back? My opinion is just as valid as yours. Besides, you’re the one who is having a breakdown because I think Taylor is ugly, not me.
I was just calmly answering PP’s clearly rhetorical question about the differences she cannot see between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift’s looks.
To me, Debbie Harry is beautiful and Taylor Swift is not. PP says they look alike. They don’t. I’m starting to think some of you are face blind or something. All you can see is blonde hair? Their faces could not be more different.
The comment was mean and petty. That’s all I was pointing out. The whole title of this thread is mean and petty, so whatever carry on. It’s really just sad that it’s devolved into comparing women’s looks so yeah not gonna step back from that and at least gonna call it out. It’s pathetic.
You know what? When you put yourself out there as a celebrity you open yourself up to criticism. It’s sad that you’re treating her like she’s a 7th grader being picked on by bullies at school. Taylor is subpar looks-wise and talent- wise when compared to singers of the past. Debbie Harry bring only one of those much superior artists. Some of us want the entertainment industry to bring back the best instead of pedaling this mediocre crap. Okay?
Celebs put themselves out there for criticism, sure. So criticize her music, it’s mean and petty to just call someone ugly because you aren’t a fan of their music.
Taylor’s a public figure and I’m free to criticize whatever I want about her. In addition to making bland, cloying music, she’s also got, what I consider, a very unattractive face. Meanwhile, famous singers of the past were both beautiful and talented. I miss that.
You aren’t my mommy, you can’t put me in a corner. I’m allowed my opinion. It doesn’t have to be nice. That’s life.
Well you are acting like a churlish child right now! Keep on spouting off your nonsense because it will only make you look bad. Taylor Swift isn't bothered at all. She is living her best life. Here is a video clip..enjoy! ( of Taylor)
You don’t get it do you, I can’t stand her music! Of course she’s not bothered. She has no idea who I am. I wish I could say the same about her. I miss the days when singers looked and sounded like Whitney Houston. It’s a shame that someone so very blah on all counts is famous. She shouldn’t be. I don’t care if saying so makes my anonymous persona on a mommy board “look bad.” It’s called having basic discernment.
NP.
Whitney Houston?? Are you kidding me? I cannot stand her music. Flat out never understood her appeal. She makes your ears bleed! And she always had that air of condescending superiority, a look like she was sniffing something bad. THAT's your aesthetic? OK, makes sense now.
You sound racist. My aesthetic is broad: Whitney Houston, Debbie Harry, Pat Benatar, Dolly Parton, etc. just not plain Jane Taylor.l Swift.
The hell? Because I legit can't stand Whitney Houston I'm a racist? GTFOH. You said you missed it when singers looked and sounded like Whitney Houston, not Whitney House, Debbie Harry, Pat Benatar and Dolly Parton. Plenty of people can't stand Whitney Houston. I'm one of them. It's OK to have that opinion. Right?
I thought you were racist because of the way you phrased “That’s your aesthetic? Okay makes sense now.”
What exactly did you mean by that? It sounds pretty darn racist to me. (And I’m lily White.)
But sure, I respect your opinion that Whitney Houston was a good singer, even though I think she was beautiful and had a breathtaking voice. (And you are literally the first person I have ever heard who didn’t like her. But I’m sure you are not alone.)
Why can’t you agree to disagree with other like me about Taylor? It boggles my mind why you are so upset about people not liking her or her music. I couldn’t care less about what you think about Whitney Houston. It doesn’t affect my enjoyment of her music. Why does my opinion about Taylor affect you? That’s bizarre.
Aesthetic meaning taste, or discernment in your words.
I actually didn’t say anything about Taylor Swift. As I said, NP. I was just reading along and saw an artist mentioned that I loathed and always have. Made me jump in. Why does my opinion about Whitney Houston affect you?
It doesn’t affect me in the slightest. Like I already said I could not care less about how you feel about Whitney Houston. I don’t know how else to spell that out.
Your views do not affect me at all as mine should not affect you.
And yet this entire thread is filled with a bunch of fanatics who cannot handle that other people can’t stand Taylor Swift. Again, I ask why do any of you care enough to read or comment on a thread titled about how mediocre she is.
If I saw a thread about how mediocre Whitney Houston was, I wouldn’t even read it. I would just move along instead of arguing with people that she’s amazing or whatever.
Why can’t all you Swifties do the same? Why can’t you let a group of likeminded people complain about a celebrity they think is overrated and untalented. What is it to you?!? It is suffocating, just like all of her PR.
Anonymous wrote:Not only are her lyrics perpetually self-focused, they are also increasingly inauthentic as she continues to write songs as though she is a perpetually unlucky-in-love, middle class, millennial woman starring in a 90s rom com. She writes from the perspective of her fans, not from her own lived experience, and it shows:
(from "Paris" on Midnights, 2022): "Stumbled down pretend alleys, cheap wine, make believe it's champagne, I was taken by the view."
When was the last time Taylor Swift ran around with a guy drinking cheap wine and pretending it was champagne, and was "taken" by the view in a city like Paris? When she wrote this song, she was a multi-millionaire juggernaut with a host of Grammy's, a massive portfolio of homes, had been to Paris many times. When has Swift EVER had to drink cheap wine on a date? She dates successful musicians, actors, and athletes and is herself wealthy and successful.
It just doesn't ring true. It feels like what you write when you are intentionally trying to evoke a moment that the typical 30 year old, middle class, woman will relate to. But it's not real for her.
I don't understand what the point is for her to writing songs like this. I don't believe that came from her heart or was ripped from her actual journal. It feels like a calculated piece of fan service. And a lot of her music feels like this. There are exceptions (Antihero certainly feels like an authentic self reflection of her real life) but a lot of it sounds like this. I'd rather she took a looooong break and wrote an entire album like Antihero and dropped this "I'm just a girls, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her" schtick. But it to bed. She's done it. It's not who she is (I actually don't really think it's who she ever was, I think it's always been a bit of a put on) and there's no more need for more Swift songs like this in the world.
I would like her a lot more if she released less music and toured less, but what she released was more interesting, more innovative, more creative. I think she has the capacity for it but she has chosen to go the route of making as much money as she can. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable choice. But it's not one I respect *artistically*. I don't think it results in great work. I think it undermines the quality of her music.
I don’t understand this criticism. I just read and watched the show lessons in chemistry which I really enjoyed. I’m pretty sure the author of that book was never a chemist in the 1950s struggling with sexism in the sciences and then getting a cooking show. But she told the story beautifully and captured some archetypal type themes which I, also not a which I, also not a woman in the 1950s, or in the hard sciences, could relate to beautifully. Which I think is what Taylor does so well.
You are in a way right- I’m posting on the thread but not the poster you are responding to. I just hate Taylor’s themes.
“Look
What you made me do” is awful to me because we are always responsible for our own behavior
Getting revenge on a lover is not ok
Stalking a lover is not ok
End game is equating a person to figure in a chess board and not the way I would want to choose my life partner nor would I want to be chosen that way
Romeo and Juliet died
Even her gay pride video all the people are beautiful are “good” o disagree with that as a strategy.
I think she has vengeful and hurtful themes to her music. Thanks for helping me see that!
Some of this is just being cheeky. Have you actually listened to Look What You Made Me Do or watch her perform? You are taking it really literally. We all have vengeful and negative qualities to us. We all are jealous of people we love and even if we are rooting for them, might have uncomfortable feelings at some point in our life. We struggle with parenting even though most of us would give our lives for our children without a second thought. We think bad thoughts about our spouses at times when they annoy us or piss us off, even though we love them and are in committed marriages. This is just life, the good and the bad, and the simplicity and the complexity of being human.
DP. I agree that we all have negative emotions or qualities at times, and that exploring that is a ripe subject for art. I actually think Antihero is a great example of this and so relatable specifically because Swift is being so honest about the negative aspects of her own relationships and behaviors. I think we've all felt that way at times, and that song is cathartic because it rings so true.
But I actually do think PP has a point about some of the vengeful and hurtful themes in some of Swift's other music. Maybe not Look What You Made Me Do, which I agree is ironic, but Bad Blood and End Game are good examples. Sometimes she's tongue-in-cheek about it, but she's writing about these themes so often.
I think one reason it can annoy, and this might not be fair, is that people (correctly) perceive Swift as a very privileged person and there is only so much complaining about "being wronged" that people will take from someone that privileged. Like people embraced Beyonce's Lemonade revenge album because it was her breaking from a lifelong persona as someone who is in charge and doesn't get taken advantage of. Especially coming after some public reports of Jay's infidelity and the elevator video, I think it made people embrace her vulnerability. But it's the only time she's done that. Most of her music is about feeling powerful and confident and in charge, and a longtime spouse cheating feels like a justifiable reason to drop that and just feel hurt or vengeful.
But Taylor goes to this well over and over, and she's writing about relationships of just months or a few years, no marriage or kids, or sometimes friendships gone bad. While of course everyone feels hurt and vengeful about romantic and friend breakups sometimes, someone who complains about this stuff a lot starts to sound like they are just blaming others for their problems and failing to do the work on themselves to avoid all this conflict.
I mean I feel like it’s a theme in some songs, not in others. She definitely has themes that she feels most comfortable writing to as I think most artists, whether you are painting, writing songs music, movies, novels, do. This seems pretty common for anyone putting out art.
Do you have the same criticisms of say someone like Stephen King, who really likes the horror genre and exploring the human condition through similar techniques and themes, or Quentin Tarantino, which you can really tell his style and things that he likes to explore in his movies over and over.
Maybe people do have these criticisms, and we just hear so much more about Taylor because she is such a global phenomenon and is everywhere. I don’t know… I find it fascinating that she generates so much discussion on this board alone!
Yes, 100% many people have criticized both King and Tarantino for their reliance on certain themes and images in their art, for being to repetitive, and much of their work has been panned even while other works are heralded (people love Pulp Fiction but the Hateful Eight was widely disliked, King's early work is beloved in the horror genre but his more recent novels have been more uneven and gotten far less love).
One reason you will see more criticism of Swift is that she is so big and inescapable right now. This is the nature of great success, especially mainstream success. Both Tarantino and King are considered genre artists, so their audiences are smaller -- people who don't like violent films or horror novels are unlikely to make the effort to engage with either artist. As a writer, King will never have the level of fame or exposure of someone like Swift. And even Tarantino only makes a movie every few years -- there will be years that go by where his name isn't part of the conversation regarding the Oscars, for instance. But Taylor Swift is everywhere, she's inevitable. People are going to hear her music, read about her love life, hear about her Grammy nominations, she's always got a new album coming out, she's also in the press for something or other, whether it's Kelce or supporting Sophie Turner or speaking out about an issue she cares about. She is "overexposed" as they say, and that will ALWAYS result in more attention and thus more criticism for an artist. It's one reason why some artists actively avoid that level of fame, even if it means giving up some of the money that goes with it. It's a hard environment. But it's one Swift chose and aggressively pursued for herself.
I agree with what you say, but I’d argue that Pulp Fiction is a masterpiece. I’d say the same for Salem’s Lot. For me, all of Taylor Swift’s music, from start to finish, is terribly bland and mediocre, like Wonder white bread.
I wonder if her fans have ever heard, for instance, Debbie Harry’s music? She’s the real deal, beautiful, creative, artistic. I get that each generation needs its own stars, but surely, there’s got to be someone better out there than Taylor and yet she’s everywhere. I’m trying to read about what’s happening in Israel and I see that Taylor and Travis are spending Christmas in Kansas. We only know that because her PR team put it out there. She’s just awful.
What exactly makes Debbie Harry the real deal but Taylor not? They’re both beautiful, creative, and artistic. They write songs with the same themes (heartbreak, yearning, crazy things we do for love). I don’t see a huge difference between them. Debbie is stronger vocally but not by a whole lot anymore.
If you cannot see the massive difference in both talent and looks between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift, then I certainly won’t be able to explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Chanel purse to a Coach one. You either see the difference in style and quality and admire it or you don’t.
Okay, so you can’t explain the massive difference. Maybe because there just isn’t. They even look similar.
I can, but you still won’t get it. Debbie Harry was a revolutionary who basically invented punk rock. Taylor Swift’s music is the opposite of revolutionary. It’s reductive and redundant. It’s the same as what Debbie Gibson sang, not Debbie Harry.
As for looks, Debbie Harry has beautiful, large eyes and an aristocratic bone structure. Her birth mom was a concert pianist and it shows. Taylor Swift has tiny, mean looking slits for eyes and she looks country, which was why she started off in country. There is nothing remotely sophisticated about her.
Again, if you can’t see the difference I can’t explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Gap sweater to an Akris blouse. Maybe you can’t tell the difference, but I can.
New poster but I think you just need to step back. Mean looking slits for eyes? This just getting really petty. We get it you don’t like Taylor Swift. you don’t have to give a breakdown of why you think she’s ugly. It’s just weird.
Why should I take a step back? My opinion is just as valid as yours. Besides, you’re the one who is having a breakdown because I think Taylor is ugly, not me.
I was just calmly answering PP’s clearly rhetorical question about the differences she cannot see between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift’s looks.
To me, Debbie Harry is beautiful and Taylor Swift is not. PP says they look alike. They don’t. I’m starting to think some of you are face blind or something. All you can see is blonde hair? Their faces could not be more different.
The comment was mean and petty. That’s all I was pointing out. The whole title of this thread is mean and petty, so whatever carry on. It’s really just sad that it’s devolved into comparing women’s looks so yeah not gonna step back from that and at least gonna call it out. It’s pathetic.
You know what? When you put yourself out there as a celebrity you open yourself up to criticism. It’s sad that you’re treating her like she’s a 7th grader being picked on by bullies at school. Taylor is subpar looks-wise and talent- wise when compared to singers of the past. Debbie Harry bring only one of those much superior artists. Some of us want the entertainment industry to bring back the best instead of pedaling this mediocre crap. Okay?
Celebs put themselves out there for criticism, sure. So criticize her music, it’s mean and petty to just call someone ugly because you aren’t a fan of their music.
Taylor’s a public figure and I’m free to criticize whatever I want about her. In addition to making bland, cloying music, she’s also got, what I consider, a very unattractive face. Meanwhile, famous singers of the past were both beautiful and talented. I miss that.
You aren’t my mommy, you can’t put me in a corner. I’m allowed my opinion. It doesn’t have to be nice. That’s life.
Well you are acting like a churlish child right now! Keep on spouting off your nonsense because it will only make you look bad. Taylor Swift isn't bothered at all. She is living her best life. Here is a video clip..enjoy! ( of Taylor)
You don’t get it do you, I can’t stand her music! Of course she’s not bothered. She has no idea who I am. I wish I could say the same about her. I miss the days when singers looked and sounded like Whitney Houston. It’s a shame that someone so very blah on all counts is famous. She shouldn’t be. I don’t care if saying so makes my anonymous persona on a mommy board “look bad.” It’s called having basic discernment.
NP.
Whitney Houston?? Are you kidding me? I cannot stand her music. Flat out never understood her appeal. She makes your ears bleed! And she always had that air of condescending superiority, a look like she was sniffing something bad. THAT's your aesthetic? OK, makes sense now.
You sound racist. My aesthetic is broad: Whitney Houston, Debbie Harry, Pat Benatar, Dolly Parton, etc. just not plain Jane Taylor.l Swift.
The hell? Because I legit can't stand Whitney Houston I'm a racist? GTFOH. You said you missed it when singers looked and sounded like Whitney Houston, not Whitney House, Debbie Harry, Pat Benatar and Dolly Parton. Plenty of people can't stand Whitney Houston. I'm one of them. It's OK to have that opinion. Right?
I thought you were racist because of the way you phrased “That’s your aesthetic? Okay makes sense now.”
What exactly did you mean by that? It sounds pretty darn racist to me. (And I’m lily White.)
But sure, I respect your opinion that Whitney Houston was a good singer, even though I think she was beautiful and had a breathtaking voice. (And you are literally the first person I have ever heard who didn’t like her. But I’m sure you are not alone.)
Why can’t you agree to disagree with other like me about Taylor? It boggles my mind why you are so upset about people not liking her or her music. I couldn’t care less about what you think about Whitney Houston. It doesn’t affect my enjoyment of her music. Why does my opinion about Taylor affect you? That’s bizarre.
Aesthetic meaning taste, or discernment in your words.
I actually didn’t say anything about Taylor Swift. As I said, NP. I was just reading along and saw an artist mentioned that I loathed and always have. Made me jump in. Why does my opinion about Whitney Houston affect you?
It doesn’t affect me in the slightest. Like I already said I could not care less about how you feel about Whitney Houston. I don’t know how else to spell that out.
Your views do not affect me at all as mine should not affect you.
And yet this entire thread is filled with a bunch of fanatics who cannot handle that other people can’t stand Taylor Swift. Again, I ask why do any of you care enough to read or comment on a thread titled about how mediocre she is.
If I saw a thread about how mediocre Whitney Houston was, I wouldn’t even read it. I would just move along instead of arguing with people that she’s amazing or whatever.
Why can’t all you Swifties do the same? Why can’t you let a group of likeminded people complain about a celebrity they think is overrated and untalented. What is it to you?!? It is suffocating, just like all of her PR.
You’re bizarre. As I said I clicked out of curiosity, find your take on Whitney Houston odd and commented on that alone. I not only didn’t argue Taylor was amazing, I didn’t say word one about Taylor Swift at all.
Anonymous wrote:Not only are her lyrics perpetually self-focused, they are also increasingly inauthentic as she continues to write songs as though she is a perpetually unlucky-in-love, middle class, millennial woman starring in a 90s rom com. She writes from the perspective of her fans, not from her own lived experience, and it shows:
(from "Paris" on Midnights, 2022): "Stumbled down pretend alleys, cheap wine, make believe it's champagne, I was taken by the view."
When was the last time Taylor Swift ran around with a guy drinking cheap wine and pretending it was champagne, and was "taken" by the view in a city like Paris? When she wrote this song, she was a multi-millionaire juggernaut with a host of Grammy's, a massive portfolio of homes, had been to Paris many times. When has Swift EVER had to drink cheap wine on a date? She dates successful musicians, actors, and athletes and is herself wealthy and successful.
It just doesn't ring true. It feels like what you write when you are intentionally trying to evoke a moment that the typical 30 year old, middle class, woman will relate to. But it's not real for her.
I don't understand what the point is for her to writing songs like this. I don't believe that came from her heart or was ripped from her actual journal. It feels like a calculated piece of fan service. And a lot of her music feels like this. There are exceptions (Antihero certainly feels like an authentic self reflection of her real life) but a lot of it sounds like this. I'd rather she took a looooong break and wrote an entire album like Antihero and dropped this "I'm just a girls, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her" schtick. But it to bed. She's done it. It's not who she is (I actually don't really think it's who she ever was, I think it's always been a bit of a put on) and there's no more need for more Swift songs like this in the world.
I would like her a lot more if she released less music and toured less, but what she released was more interesting, more innovative, more creative. I think she has the capacity for it but she has chosen to go the route of making as much money as she can. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable choice. But it's not one I respect *artistically*. I don't think it results in great work. I think it undermines the quality of her music.
I don’t understand this criticism. I just read and watched the show lessons in chemistry which I really enjoyed. I’m pretty sure the author of that book was never a chemist in the 1950s struggling with sexism in the sciences and then getting a cooking show. But she told the story beautifully and captured some archetypal type themes which I, also not a which I, also not a woman in the 1950s, or in the hard sciences, could relate to beautifully. Which I think is what Taylor does so well.
You are in a way right- I’m posting on the thread but not the poster you are responding to. I just hate Taylor’s themes.
“Look
What you made me do” is awful to me because we are always responsible for our own behavior
Getting revenge on a lover is not ok
Stalking a lover is not ok
End game is equating a person to figure in a chess board and not the way I would want to choose my life partner nor would I want to be chosen that way
Romeo and Juliet died
Even her gay pride video all the people are beautiful are “good” o disagree with that as a strategy.
I think she has vengeful and hurtful themes to her music. Thanks for helping me see that!
Some of this is just being cheeky. Have you actually listened to Look What You Made Me Do or watch her perform? You are taking it really literally. We all have vengeful and negative qualities to us. We all are jealous of people we love and even if we are rooting for them, might have uncomfortable feelings at some point in our life. We struggle with parenting even though most of us would give our lives for our children without a second thought. We think bad thoughts about our spouses at times when they annoy us or piss us off, even though we love them and are in committed marriages. This is just life, the good and the bad, and the simplicity and the complexity of being human.
DP. I agree that we all have negative emotions or qualities at times, and that exploring that is a ripe subject for art. I actually think Antihero is a great example of this and so relatable specifically because Swift is being so honest about the negative aspects of her own relationships and behaviors. I think we've all felt that way at times, and that song is cathartic because it rings so true.
But I actually do think PP has a point about some of the vengeful and hurtful themes in some of Swift's other music. Maybe not Look What You Made Me Do, which I agree is ironic, but Bad Blood and End Game are good examples. Sometimes she's tongue-in-cheek about it, but she's writing about these themes so often.
I think one reason it can annoy, and this might not be fair, is that people (correctly) perceive Swift as a very privileged person and there is only so much complaining about "being wronged" that people will take from someone that privileged. Like people embraced Beyonce's Lemonade revenge album because it was her breaking from a lifelong persona as someone who is in charge and doesn't get taken advantage of. Especially coming after some public reports of Jay's infidelity and the elevator video, I think it made people embrace her vulnerability. But it's the only time she's done that. Most of her music is about feeling powerful and confident and in charge, and a longtime spouse cheating feels like a justifiable reason to drop that and just feel hurt or vengeful.
But Taylor goes to this well over and over, and she's writing about relationships of just months or a few years, no marriage or kids, or sometimes friendships gone bad. While of course everyone feels hurt and vengeful about romantic and friend breakups sometimes, someone who complains about this stuff a lot starts to sound like they are just blaming others for their problems and failing to do the work on themselves to avoid all this conflict.
I mean I feel like it’s a theme in some songs, not in others. She definitely has themes that she feels most comfortable writing to as I think most artists, whether you are painting, writing songs music, movies, novels, do. This seems pretty common for anyone putting out art.
Do you have the same criticisms of say someone like Stephen King, who really likes the horror genre and exploring the human condition through similar techniques and themes, or Quentin Tarantino, which you can really tell his style and things that he likes to explore in his movies over and over.
Maybe people do have these criticisms, and we just hear so much more about Taylor because she is such a global phenomenon and is everywhere. I don’t know… I find it fascinating that she generates so much discussion on this board alone!
Yes, 100% many people have criticized both King and Tarantino for their reliance on certain themes and images in their art, for being to repetitive, and much of their work has been panned even while other works are heralded (people love Pulp Fiction but the Hateful Eight was widely disliked, King's early work is beloved in the horror genre but his more recent novels have been more uneven and gotten far less love).
One reason you will see more criticism of Swift is that she is so big and inescapable right now. This is the nature of great success, especially mainstream success. Both Tarantino and King are considered genre artists, so their audiences are smaller -- people who don't like violent films or horror novels are unlikely to make the effort to engage with either artist. As a writer, King will never have the level of fame or exposure of someone like Swift. And even Tarantino only makes a movie every few years -- there will be years that go by where his name isn't part of the conversation regarding the Oscars, for instance. But Taylor Swift is everywhere, she's inevitable. People are going to hear her music, read about her love life, hear about her Grammy nominations, she's always got a new album coming out, she's also in the press for something or other, whether it's Kelce or supporting Sophie Turner or speaking out about an issue she cares about. She is "overexposed" as they say, and that will ALWAYS result in more attention and thus more criticism for an artist. It's one reason why some artists actively avoid that level of fame, even if it means giving up some of the money that goes with it. It's a hard environment. But it's one Swift chose and aggressively pursued for herself.
I agree with what you say, but I’d argue that Pulp Fiction is a masterpiece. I’d say the same for Salem’s Lot. For me, all of Taylor Swift’s music, from start to finish, is terribly bland and mediocre, like Wonder white bread.
I wonder if her fans have ever heard, for instance, Debbie Harry’s music? She’s the real deal, beautiful, creative, artistic. I get that each generation needs its own stars, but surely, there’s got to be someone better out there than Taylor and yet she’s everywhere. I’m trying to read about what’s happening in Israel and I see that Taylor and Travis are spending Christmas in Kansas. We only know that because her PR team put it out there. She’s just awful.
What exactly makes Debbie Harry the real deal but Taylor not? They’re both beautiful, creative, and artistic. They write songs with the same themes (heartbreak, yearning, crazy things we do for love). I don’t see a huge difference between them. Debbie is stronger vocally but not by a whole lot anymore.
If you cannot see the massive difference in both talent and looks between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift, then I certainly won’t be able to explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Chanel purse to a Coach one. You either see the difference in style and quality and admire it or you don’t.
Okay, so you can’t explain the massive difference. Maybe because there just isn’t. They even look similar.
I can, but you still won’t get it. Debbie Harry was a revolutionary who basically invented punk rock. Taylor Swift’s music is the opposite of revolutionary. It’s reductive and redundant. It’s the same as what Debbie Gibson sang, not Debbie Harry.
As for looks, Debbie Harry has beautiful, large eyes and an aristocratic bone structure. Her birth mom was a concert pianist and it shows. Taylor Swift has tiny, mean looking slits for eyes and she looks country, which was why she started off in country. There is nothing remotely sophisticated about her.
Again, if you can’t see the difference I can’t explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Gap sweater to an Akris blouse. Maybe you can’t tell the difference, but I can.
New poster but I think you just need to step back. Mean looking slits for eyes? This just getting really petty. We get it you don’t like Taylor Swift. you don’t have to give a breakdown of why you think she’s ugly. It’s just weird.
Why should I take a step back? My opinion is just as valid as yours. Besides, you’re the one who is having a breakdown because I think Taylor is ugly, not me.
I was just calmly answering PP’s clearly rhetorical question about the differences she cannot see between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift’s looks.
To me, Debbie Harry is beautiful and Taylor Swift is not. PP says they look alike. They don’t. I’m starting to think some of you are face blind or something. All you can see is blonde hair? Their faces could not be more different.
The comment was mean and petty. That’s all I was pointing out. The whole title of this thread is mean and petty, so whatever carry on. It’s really just sad that it’s devolved into comparing women’s looks so yeah not gonna step back from that and at least gonna call it out. It’s pathetic.
You know what? When you put yourself out there as a celebrity you open yourself up to criticism. It’s sad that you’re treating her like she’s a 7th grader being picked on by bullies at school. Taylor is subpar looks-wise and talent- wise when compared to singers of the past. Debbie Harry bring only one of those much superior artists. Some of us want the entertainment industry to bring back the best instead of pedaling this mediocre crap. Okay?
Celebs put themselves out there for criticism, sure. So criticize her music, it’s mean and petty to just call someone ugly because you aren’t a fan of their music.
Taylor’s a public figure and I’m free to criticize whatever I want about her. In addition to making bland, cloying music, she’s also got, what I consider, a very unattractive face. Meanwhile, famous singers of the past were both beautiful and talented. I miss that.
You aren’t my mommy, you can’t put me in a corner. I’m allowed my opinion. It doesn’t have to be nice. That’s life.
Well you are acting like a churlish child right now! Keep on spouting off your nonsense because it will only make you look bad. Taylor Swift isn't bothered at all. She is living her best life. Here is a video clip..enjoy! ( of Taylor)
You don’t get it do you, I can’t stand her music! Of course she’s not bothered. She has no idea who I am. I wish I could say the same about her. I miss the days when singers looked and sounded like Whitney Houston. It’s a shame that someone so very blah on all counts is famous. She shouldn’t be. I don’t care if saying so makes my anonymous persona on a mommy board “look bad.” It’s called having basic discernment.
NP.
Whitney Houston?? Are you kidding me? I cannot stand her music. Flat out never understood her appeal. She makes your ears bleed! And she always had that air of condescending superiority, a look like she was sniffing something bad. THAT's your aesthetic? OK, makes sense now.
You sound racist. My aesthetic is broad: Whitney Houston, Debbie Harry, Pat Benatar, Dolly Parton, etc. just not plain Jane Taylor.l Swift.
The hell? Because I legit can't stand Whitney Houston I'm a racist? GTFOH. You said you missed it when singers looked and sounded like Whitney Houston, not Whitney House, Debbie Harry, Pat Benatar and Dolly Parton. Plenty of people can't stand Whitney Houston. I'm one of them. It's OK to have that opinion. Right?
I thought you were racist because of the way you phrased “That’s your aesthetic? Okay makes sense now.”
What exactly did you mean by that? It sounds pretty darn racist to me. (And I’m lily White.)
But sure, I respect your opinion that Whitney Houston was a good singer, even though I think she was beautiful and had a breathtaking voice. (And you are literally the first person I have ever heard who didn’t like her. But I’m sure you are not alone.)
Why can’t you agree to disagree with other like me about Taylor? It boggles my mind why you are so upset about people not liking her or her music. I couldn’t care less about what you think about Whitney Houston. It doesn’t affect my enjoyment of her music. Why does my opinion about Taylor affect you? That’s bizarre.
Aesthetic meaning taste, or discernment in your words.
I actually didn’t say anything about Taylor Swift. As I said, NP. I was just reading along and saw an artist mentioned that I loathed and always have. Made me jump in. Why does my opinion about Whitney Houston affect you?
It doesn’t affect me in the slightest. Like I already said I could not care less about how you feel about Whitney Houston. I don’t know how else to spell that out.
Your views do not affect me at all as mine should not affect you.
And yet this entire thread is filled with a bunch of fanatics who cannot handle that other people can’t stand Taylor Swift. Again, I ask why do any of you care enough to read or comment on a thread titled about how mediocre she is.
If I saw a thread about how mediocre Whitney Houston was, I wouldn’t even read it. I would just move along instead of arguing with people that she’s amazing or whatever.
Why can’t all you Swifties do the same? Why can’t you let a group of likeminded people complain about a celebrity they think is overrated and untalented. What is it to you?!? It is suffocating, just like all of her PR.
You’re bizarre. As I said I clicked out of curiosity, find your take on Whitney Houston odd and commented on that alone. I not only didn’t argue Taylor was amazing, I didn’t say word one about Taylor Swift at all.
Anonymous wrote:Not only are her lyrics perpetually self-focused, they are also increasingly inauthentic as she continues to write songs as though she is a perpetually unlucky-in-love, middle class, millennial woman starring in a 90s rom com. She writes from the perspective of her fans, not from her own lived experience, and it shows:
(from "Paris" on Midnights, 2022): "Stumbled down pretend alleys, cheap wine, make believe it's champagne, I was taken by the view."
When was the last time Taylor Swift ran around with a guy drinking cheap wine and pretending it was champagne, and was "taken" by the view in a city like Paris? When she wrote this song, she was a multi-millionaire juggernaut with a host of Grammy's, a massive portfolio of homes, had been to Paris many times. When has Swift EVER had to drink cheap wine on a date? She dates successful musicians, actors, and athletes and is herself wealthy and successful.
It just doesn't ring true. It feels like what you write when you are intentionally trying to evoke a moment that the typical 30 year old, middle class, woman will relate to. But it's not real for her.
I don't understand what the point is for her to writing songs like this. I don't believe that came from her heart or was ripped from her actual journal. It feels like a calculated piece of fan service. And a lot of her music feels like this. There are exceptions (Antihero certainly feels like an authentic self reflection of her real life) but a lot of it sounds like this. I'd rather she took a looooong break and wrote an entire album like Antihero and dropped this "I'm just a girls, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her" schtick. But it to bed. She's done it. It's not who she is (I actually don't really think it's who she ever was, I think it's always been a bit of a put on) and there's no more need for more Swift songs like this in the world.
I would like her a lot more if she released less music and toured less, but what she released was more interesting, more innovative, more creative. I think she has the capacity for it but she has chosen to go the route of making as much money as she can. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable choice. But it's not one I respect *artistically*. I don't think it results in great work. I think it undermines the quality of her music.
I don’t understand this criticism. I just read and watched the show lessons in chemistry which I really enjoyed. I’m pretty sure the author of that book was never a chemist in the 1950s struggling with sexism in the sciences and then getting a cooking show. But she told the story beautifully and captured some archetypal type themes which I, also not a which I, also not a woman in the 1950s, or in the hard sciences, could relate to beautifully. Which I think is what Taylor does so well.
You are in a way right- I’m posting on the thread but not the poster you are responding to. I just hate Taylor’s themes.
“Look
What you made me do” is awful to me because we are always responsible for our own behavior
Getting revenge on a lover is not ok
Stalking a lover is not ok
End game is equating a person to figure in a chess board and not the way I would want to choose my life partner nor would I want to be chosen that way
Romeo and Juliet died
Even her gay pride video all the people are beautiful are “good” o disagree with that as a strategy.
I think she has vengeful and hurtful themes to her music. Thanks for helping me see that!
Some of this is just being cheeky. Have you actually listened to Look What You Made Me Do or watch her perform? You are taking it really literally. We all have vengeful and negative qualities to us. We all are jealous of people we love and even if we are rooting for them, might have uncomfortable feelings at some point in our life. We struggle with parenting even though most of us would give our lives for our children without a second thought. We think bad thoughts about our spouses at times when they annoy us or piss us off, even though we love them and are in committed marriages. This is just life, the good and the bad, and the simplicity and the complexity of being human.
DP. I agree that we all have negative emotions or qualities at times, and that exploring that is a ripe subject for art. I actually think Antihero is a great example of this and so relatable specifically because Swift is being so honest about the negative aspects of her own relationships and behaviors. I think we've all felt that way at times, and that song is cathartic because it rings so true.
But I actually do think PP has a point about some of the vengeful and hurtful themes in some of Swift's other music. Maybe not Look What You Made Me Do, which I agree is ironic, but Bad Blood and End Game are good examples. Sometimes she's tongue-in-cheek about it, but she's writing about these themes so often.
I think one reason it can annoy, and this might not be fair, is that people (correctly) perceive Swift as a very privileged person and there is only so much complaining about "being wronged" that people will take from someone that privileged. Like people embraced Beyonce's Lemonade revenge album because it was her breaking from a lifelong persona as someone who is in charge and doesn't get taken advantage of. Especially coming after some public reports of Jay's infidelity and the elevator video, I think it made people embrace her vulnerability. But it's the only time she's done that. Most of her music is about feeling powerful and confident and in charge, and a longtime spouse cheating feels like a justifiable reason to drop that and just feel hurt or vengeful.
But Taylor goes to this well over and over, and she's writing about relationships of just months or a few years, no marriage or kids, or sometimes friendships gone bad. While of course everyone feels hurt and vengeful about romantic and friend breakups sometimes, someone who complains about this stuff a lot starts to sound like they are just blaming others for their problems and failing to do the work on themselves to avoid all this conflict.
I mean I feel like it’s a theme in some songs, not in others. She definitely has themes that she feels most comfortable writing to as I think most artists, whether you are painting, writing songs music, movies, novels, do. This seems pretty common for anyone putting out art.
Do you have the same criticisms of say someone like Stephen King, who really likes the horror genre and exploring the human condition through similar techniques and themes, or Quentin Tarantino, which you can really tell his style and things that he likes to explore in his movies over and over.
Maybe people do have these criticisms, and we just hear so much more about Taylor because she is such a global phenomenon and is everywhere. I don’t know… I find it fascinating that she generates so much discussion on this board alone!
Yes, 100% many people have criticized both King and Tarantino for their reliance on certain themes and images in their art, for being to repetitive, and much of their work has been panned even while other works are heralded (people love Pulp Fiction but the Hateful Eight was widely disliked, King's early work is beloved in the horror genre but his more recent novels have been more uneven and gotten far less love).
One reason you will see more criticism of Swift is that she is so big and inescapable right now. This is the nature of great success, especially mainstream success. Both Tarantino and King are considered genre artists, so their audiences are smaller -- people who don't like violent films or horror novels are unlikely to make the effort to engage with either artist. As a writer, King will never have the level of fame or exposure of someone like Swift. And even Tarantino only makes a movie every few years -- there will be years that go by where his name isn't part of the conversation regarding the Oscars, for instance. But Taylor Swift is everywhere, she's inevitable. People are going to hear her music, read about her love life, hear about her Grammy nominations, she's always got a new album coming out, she's also in the press for something or other, whether it's Kelce or supporting Sophie Turner or speaking out about an issue she cares about. She is "overexposed" as they say, and that will ALWAYS result in more attention and thus more criticism for an artist. It's one reason why some artists actively avoid that level of fame, even if it means giving up some of the money that goes with it. It's a hard environment. But it's one Swift chose and aggressively pursued for herself.
I agree with what you say, but I’d argue that Pulp Fiction is a masterpiece. I’d say the same for Salem’s Lot. For me, all of Taylor Swift’s music, from start to finish, is terribly bland and mediocre, like Wonder white bread.
I wonder if her fans have ever heard, for instance, Debbie Harry’s music? She’s the real deal, beautiful, creative, artistic. I get that each generation needs its own stars, but surely, there’s got to be someone better out there than Taylor and yet she’s everywhere. I’m trying to read about what’s happening in Israel and I see that Taylor and Travis are spending Christmas in Kansas. We only know that because her PR team put it out there. She’s just awful.
What exactly makes Debbie Harry the real deal but Taylor not? They’re both beautiful, creative, and artistic. They write songs with the same themes (heartbreak, yearning, crazy things we do for love). I don’t see a huge difference between them. Debbie is stronger vocally but not by a whole lot anymore.
If you cannot see the massive difference in both talent and looks between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift, then I certainly won’t be able to explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Chanel purse to a Coach one. You either see the difference in style and quality and admire it or you don’t.
Okay, so you can’t explain the massive difference. Maybe because there just isn’t. They even look similar.
I can, but you still won’t get it. Debbie Harry was a revolutionary who basically invented punk rock. Taylor Swift’s music is the opposite of revolutionary. It’s reductive and redundant. It’s the same as what Debbie Gibson sang, not Debbie Harry.
As for looks, Debbie Harry has beautiful, large eyes and an aristocratic bone structure. Her birth mom was a concert pianist and it shows. Taylor Swift has tiny, mean looking slits for eyes and she looks country, which was why she started off in country. There is nothing remotely sophisticated about her.
Again, if you can’t see the difference I can’t explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Gap sweater to an Akris blouse. Maybe you can’t tell the difference, but I can.
New poster but I think you just need to step back. Mean looking slits for eyes? This just getting really petty. We get it you don’t like Taylor Swift. you don’t have to give a breakdown of why you think she’s ugly. It’s just weird.
Why should I take a step back? My opinion is just as valid as yours. Besides, you’re the one who is having a breakdown because I think Taylor is ugly, not me.
I was just calmly answering PP’s clearly rhetorical question about the differences she cannot see between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift’s looks.
To me, Debbie Harry is beautiful and Taylor Swift is not. PP says they look alike. They don’t. I’m starting to think some of you are face blind or something. All you can see is blonde hair? Their faces could not be more different.
The comment was mean and petty. That’s all I was pointing out. The whole title of this thread is mean and petty, so whatever carry on. It’s really just sad that it’s devolved into comparing women’s looks so yeah not gonna step back from that and at least gonna call it out. It’s pathetic.
You know what? When you put yourself out there as a celebrity you open yourself up to criticism. It’s sad that you’re treating her like she’s a 7th grader being picked on by bullies at school. Taylor is subpar looks-wise and talent- wise when compared to singers of the past. Debbie Harry bring only one of those much superior artists. Some of us want the entertainment industry to bring back the best instead of pedaling this mediocre crap. Okay?
Celebs put themselves out there for criticism, sure. So criticize her music, it’s mean and petty to just call someone ugly because you aren’t a fan of their music.
Taylor’s a public figure and I’m free to criticize whatever I want about her. In addition to making bland, cloying music, she’s also got, what I consider, a very unattractive face. Meanwhile, famous singers of the past were both beautiful and talented. I miss that.
You aren’t my mommy, you can’t put me in a corner. I’m allowed my opinion. It doesn’t have to be nice. That’s life.
Well you are acting like a churlish child right now! Keep on spouting off your nonsense because it will only make you look bad. Taylor Swift isn't bothered at all. She is living her best life. Here is a video clip..enjoy! ( of Taylor)
You don’t get it do you, I can’t stand her music! Of course she’s not bothered. She has no idea who I am. I wish I could say the same about her. I miss the days when singers looked and sounded like Whitney Houston. It’s a shame that someone so very blah on all counts is famous. She shouldn’t be. I don’t care if saying so makes my anonymous persona on a mommy board “look bad.” It’s called having basic discernment.
NP.
Whitney Houston?? Are you kidding me? I cannot stand her music. Flat out never understood her appeal. She makes your ears bleed! And she always had that air of condescending superiority, a look like she was sniffing something bad. THAT's your aesthetic? OK, makes sense now.
You sound racist. My aesthetic is broad: Whitney Houston, Debbie Harry, Pat Benatar, Dolly Parton, etc. just not plain Jane Taylor.l Swift.
This is funny. Your aesthetic is not broad based on this example. You like sopranos!
The concept of Debbie Harry “basically inventing punk” is going to keep me chuckling for a while. Full credit to her as a transitional artist combining genres of disco, new wave, and even a bit of Sugar Hill era rap. She was certainly creative and talented in her time, but her songs don’t really stand the test of time (IMO, obviously many will disagree) and she had a limited number of hits. It remains to be seen whether Taylor Swift’s songs will be revered or forgotten.
I find the comparison of these two artists to be odd. But I definitely think PP mentioning Whitney, Blondie, and Dolly has a thing for sopranos and say whatever you will about her, Taylor Swift is definitely not a soprano.
Anonymous wrote:Not only are her lyrics perpetually self-focused, they are also increasingly inauthentic as she continues to write songs as though she is a perpetually unlucky-in-love, middle class, millennial woman starring in a 90s rom com. She writes from the perspective of her fans, not from her own lived experience, and it shows:
(from "Paris" on Midnights, 2022): "Stumbled down pretend alleys, cheap wine, make believe it's champagne, I was taken by the view."
When was the last time Taylor Swift ran around with a guy drinking cheap wine and pretending it was champagne, and was "taken" by the view in a city like Paris? When she wrote this song, she was a multi-millionaire juggernaut with a host of Grammy's, a massive portfolio of homes, had been to Paris many times. When has Swift EVER had to drink cheap wine on a date? She dates successful musicians, actors, and athletes and is herself wealthy and successful.
It just doesn't ring true. It feels like what you write when you are intentionally trying to evoke a moment that the typical 30 year old, middle class, woman will relate to. But it's not real for her.
I don't understand what the point is for her to writing songs like this. I don't believe that came from her heart or was ripped from her actual journal. It feels like a calculated piece of fan service. And a lot of her music feels like this. There are exceptions (Antihero certainly feels like an authentic self reflection of her real life) but a lot of it sounds like this. I'd rather she took a looooong break and wrote an entire album like Antihero and dropped this "I'm just a girls, standing in front of a boy, asking him to love her" schtick. But it to bed. She's done it. It's not who she is (I actually don't really think it's who she ever was, I think it's always been a bit of a put on) and there's no more need for more Swift songs like this in the world.
I would like her a lot more if she released less music and toured less, but what she released was more interesting, more innovative, more creative. I think she has the capacity for it but she has chosen to go the route of making as much money as she can. That's fine and a perfectly acceptable choice. But it's not one I respect *artistically*. I don't think it results in great work. I think it undermines the quality of her music.
I don’t understand this criticism. I just read and watched the show lessons in chemistry which I really enjoyed. I’m pretty sure the author of that book was never a chemist in the 1950s struggling with sexism in the sciences and then getting a cooking show. But she told the story beautifully and captured some archetypal type themes which I, also not a which I, also not a woman in the 1950s, or in the hard sciences, could relate to beautifully. Which I think is what Taylor does so well.
You are in a way right- I’m posting on the thread but not the poster you are responding to. I just hate Taylor’s themes.
“Look
What you made me do” is awful to me because we are always responsible for our own behavior
Getting revenge on a lover is not ok
Stalking a lover is not ok
End game is equating a person to figure in a chess board and not the way I would want to choose my life partner nor would I want to be chosen that way
Romeo and Juliet died
Even her gay pride video all the people are beautiful are “good” o disagree with that as a strategy.
I think she has vengeful and hurtful themes to her music. Thanks for helping me see that!
Some of this is just being cheeky. Have you actually listened to Look What You Made Me Do or watch her perform? You are taking it really literally. We all have vengeful and negative qualities to us. We all are jealous of people we love and even if we are rooting for them, might have uncomfortable feelings at some point in our life. We struggle with parenting even though most of us would give our lives for our children without a second thought. We think bad thoughts about our spouses at times when they annoy us or piss us off, even though we love them and are in committed marriages. This is just life, the good and the bad, and the simplicity and the complexity of being human.
DP. I agree that we all have negative emotions or qualities at times, and that exploring that is a ripe subject for art. I actually think Antihero is a great example of this and so relatable specifically because Swift is being so honest about the negative aspects of her own relationships and behaviors. I think we've all felt that way at times, and that song is cathartic because it rings so true.
But I actually do think PP has a point about some of the vengeful and hurtful themes in some of Swift's other music. Maybe not Look What You Made Me Do, which I agree is ironic, but Bad Blood and End Game are good examples. Sometimes she's tongue-in-cheek about it, but she's writing about these themes so often.
I think one reason it can annoy, and this might not be fair, is that people (correctly) perceive Swift as a very privileged person and there is only so much complaining about "being wronged" that people will take from someone that privileged. Like people embraced Beyonce's Lemonade revenge album because it was her breaking from a lifelong persona as someone who is in charge and doesn't get taken advantage of. Especially coming after some public reports of Jay's infidelity and the elevator video, I think it made people embrace her vulnerability. But it's the only time she's done that. Most of her music is about feeling powerful and confident and in charge, and a longtime spouse cheating feels like a justifiable reason to drop that and just feel hurt or vengeful.
But Taylor goes to this well over and over, and she's writing about relationships of just months or a few years, no marriage or kids, or sometimes friendships gone bad. While of course everyone feels hurt and vengeful about romantic and friend breakups sometimes, someone who complains about this stuff a lot starts to sound like they are just blaming others for their problems and failing to do the work on themselves to avoid all this conflict.
I mean I feel like it’s a theme in some songs, not in others. She definitely has themes that she feels most comfortable writing to as I think most artists, whether you are painting, writing songs music, movies, novels, do. This seems pretty common for anyone putting out art.
Do you have the same criticisms of say someone like Stephen King, who really likes the horror genre and exploring the human condition through similar techniques and themes, or Quentin Tarantino, which you can really tell his style and things that he likes to explore in his movies over and over.
Maybe people do have these criticisms, and we just hear so much more about Taylor because she is such a global phenomenon and is everywhere. I don’t know… I find it fascinating that she generates so much discussion on this board alone!
Yes, 100% many people have criticized both King and Tarantino for their reliance on certain themes and images in their art, for being to repetitive, and much of their work has been panned even while other works are heralded (people love Pulp Fiction but the Hateful Eight was widely disliked, King's early work is beloved in the horror genre but his more recent novels have been more uneven and gotten far less love).
One reason you will see more criticism of Swift is that she is so big and inescapable right now. This is the nature of great success, especially mainstream success. Both Tarantino and King are considered genre artists, so their audiences are smaller -- people who don't like violent films or horror novels are unlikely to make the effort to engage with either artist. As a writer, King will never have the level of fame or exposure of someone like Swift. And even Tarantino only makes a movie every few years -- there will be years that go by where his name isn't part of the conversation regarding the Oscars, for instance. But Taylor Swift is everywhere, she's inevitable. People are going to hear her music, read about her love life, hear about her Grammy nominations, she's always got a new album coming out, she's also in the press for something or other, whether it's Kelce or supporting Sophie Turner or speaking out about an issue she cares about. She is "overexposed" as they say, and that will ALWAYS result in more attention and thus more criticism for an artist. It's one reason why some artists actively avoid that level of fame, even if it means giving up some of the money that goes with it. It's a hard environment. But it's one Swift chose and aggressively pursued for herself.
I agree with what you say, but I’d argue that Pulp Fiction is a masterpiece. I’d say the same for Salem’s Lot. For me, all of Taylor Swift’s music, from start to finish, is terribly bland and mediocre, like Wonder white bread.
I wonder if her fans have ever heard, for instance, Debbie Harry’s music? She’s the real deal, beautiful, creative, artistic. I get that each generation needs its own stars, but surely, there’s got to be someone better out there than Taylor and yet she’s everywhere. I’m trying to read about what’s happening in Israel and I see that Taylor and Travis are spending Christmas in Kansas. We only know that because her PR team put it out there. She’s just awful.
What exactly makes Debbie Harry the real deal but Taylor not? They’re both beautiful, creative, and artistic. They write songs with the same themes (heartbreak, yearning, crazy things we do for love). I don’t see a huge difference between them. Debbie is stronger vocally but not by a whole lot anymore.
If you cannot see the massive difference in both talent and looks between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift, then I certainly won’t be able to explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Chanel purse to a Coach one. You either see the difference in style and quality and admire it or you don’t.
Okay, so you can’t explain the massive difference. Maybe because there just isn’t. They even look similar.
I can, but you still won’t get it. Debbie Harry was a revolutionary who basically invented punk rock. Taylor Swift’s music is the opposite of revolutionary. It’s reductive and redundant. It’s the same as what Debbie Gibson sang, not Debbie Harry.
As for looks, Debbie Harry has beautiful, large eyes and an aristocratic bone structure. Her birth mom was a concert pianist and it shows. Taylor Swift has tiny, mean looking slits for eyes and she looks country, which was why she started off in country. There is nothing remotely sophisticated about her.
Again, if you can’t see the difference I can’t explain it to you. It’s like comparing a Gap sweater to an Akris blouse. Maybe you can’t tell the difference, but I can.
New poster but I think you just need to step back. Mean looking slits for eyes? This just getting really petty. We get it you don’t like Taylor Swift. you don’t have to give a breakdown of why you think she’s ugly. It’s just weird.
Why should I take a step back? My opinion is just as valid as yours. Besides, you’re the one who is having a breakdown because I think Taylor is ugly, not me.
I was just calmly answering PP’s clearly rhetorical question about the differences she cannot see between Debbie Harry and Taylor Swift’s looks.
To me, Debbie Harry is beautiful and Taylor Swift is not. PP says they look alike. They don’t. I’m starting to think some of you are face blind or something. All you can see is blonde hair? Their faces could not be more different.
The comment was mean and petty. That’s all I was pointing out. The whole title of this thread is mean and petty, so whatever carry on. It’s really just sad that it’s devolved into comparing women’s looks so yeah not gonna step back from that and at least gonna call it out. It’s pathetic.
You know what? When you put yourself out there as a celebrity you open yourself up to criticism. It’s sad that you’re treating her like she’s a 7th grader being picked on by bullies at school. Taylor is subpar looks-wise and talent- wise when compared to singers of the past. Debbie Harry bring only one of those much superior artists. Some of us want the entertainment industry to bring back the best instead of pedaling this mediocre crap. Okay?
Celebs put themselves out there for criticism, sure. So criticize her music, it’s mean and petty to just call someone ugly because you aren’t a fan of their music.
Taylor’s a public figure and I’m free to criticize whatever I want about her. In addition to making bland, cloying music, she’s also got, what I consider, a very unattractive face. Meanwhile, famous singers of the past were both beautiful and talented. I miss that.
You aren’t my mommy, you can’t put me in a corner. I’m allowed my opinion. It doesn’t have to be nice. That’s life.
Well you are acting like a churlish child right now! Keep on spouting off your nonsense because it will only make you look bad. Taylor Swift isn't bothered at all. She is living her best life. Here is a video clip..enjoy! ( of Taylor)
You don’t get it do you, I can’t stand her music! Of course she’s not bothered. She has no idea who I am. I wish I could say the same about her. I miss the days when singers looked and sounded like Whitney Houston. It’s a shame that someone so very blah on all counts is famous. She shouldn’t be. I don’t care if saying so makes my anonymous persona on a mommy board “look bad.” It’s called having basic discernment.
NP.
Whitney Houston?? Are you kidding me? I cannot stand her music. Flat out never understood her appeal. She makes your ears bleed! And she always had that air of condescending superiority, a look like she was sniffing something bad. THAT's your aesthetic? OK, makes sense now.
You sound racist. My aesthetic is broad: Whitney Houston, Debbie Harry, Pat Benatar, Dolly Parton, etc. just not plain Jane Taylor.l Swift.
This is funny. Your aesthetic is not broad based on this example. You like sopranos!
The concept of Debbie Harry “basically inventing punk” is going to keep me chuckling for a while. Full credit to her as a transitional artist combining genres of disco, new wave, and even a bit of Sugar Hill era rap. She was certainly creative and talented in her time, but her songs don’t really stand the test of time (IMO, obviously many will disagree) and she had a limited number of hits. It remains to be seen whether Taylor Swift’s songs will be revered or forgotten.
I find the comparison of these two artists to be odd. But I definitely think PP mentioning Whitney, Blondie, and Dolly has a thing for sopranos and say whatever you will about her, Taylor Swift is definitely not a soprano.
I don’t know what vocal range Linda Rondstant is considered to be,because she sang from contralto to soprano, but she’s also a much better vocalist than Taylor Swift and also much, much prettier.
I can go on and on about better singers than Taylor Swift. She really isn’t very good. It’s all smoke and mirrors with that one and a caseload of makeup, too.
Taylor Swift herself says she's not a great singer. She describes herself as a songwriter who sings her own songs, not a singer who writes her own songs. She's most proud of her lyrics.
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