Making time for kids? Study says quality trumps quantity

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been both: WOHM and SAHM. I'm incredibly fortunate to have a Mom who insisted in keeping her grandchildren when I did work.

Leaving my infant with a stranger does not sit well with me. When you add in a day care center where they won't receive individual care and attention...it's not happening. And having a nanny just leaves too much unaccountability for behaving well towards my child. I'd rather go on welfare and/or move in with my parents than subject my child to that.

IMO, children should be with their parents and/or loving grandparents until preschool.

It depends on the family member. My MIL is retired and kept my nephew. It set him behind socially a lot because all she did was stick him front of the tv. He knew all of the story lines on general hospital and one life to live. At the time people thought it was funny, but now he is behind in elementary school.

A lot of kids go to daycare and learn to read, write, and do all kinds of things that put them ahead. My daughter was really in love with her daycare teacher. When we moved she cried over her for days.

The fact that you are okay with fleecing the government for welfare shows you have low moral character.

I would say that might be more reflective of your child.

My Mom did no activities with my kids, they watched plenty of TV and they were never behind in school. But...my emphasis was on INFANT care, not preschool.

And if the choice is between putting my young infant in a center for 8+ hours a day and welfare, I'd absolutely choose welfare.

So basically your mom did not watch your child, the TV did. Well I'm glad the TV did such a great job of watching your kid. I'm sure your baby enjoyed watching 8+ hours a day of non stop tv.

You're confusing infant with preschool care...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been both: WOHM and SAHM. I'm incredibly fortunate to have a Mom who insisted in keeping her grandchildren when I did work.

Leaving my infant with a stranger does not sit well with me. When you add in a day care center where they won't receive individual care and attention...it's not happening. And having a nanny just leaves too much unaccountability for behaving well towards my child. I'd rather go on welfare and/or move in with my parents than subject my child to that.

IMO, children should be with their parents and/or loving grandparents until preschool.

Good lord, you're a moron.

Justify it all you want. Seeing infants stuck in a crib, playpen or highchair all day is heartbreaking. Young children should NOT be warehoused in daycare centers.

Thank you. As far as you know, they all take infants at about 6 weeks old?
A good daycare does no such thing. Infants in a good daycare would be interacting with their teacher, playing on the floor, or with age appropriate toys, etc. My daughters daycare also has a jumbo stroller and takes the kids out for walks all the time.

What should NOT be happening is insecure moms who have never had their child in daycare commenting on what happens in a daycare. I bet you've never even stepped foot inside a daycare center. But I guess it's easier to be a judgemental bitch than educate yourself.

Different poster here. Which daycare do you speak of?

Children in the Shoe. Rock Spring. Wonders. Need more?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been both: WOHM and SAHM. I'm incredibly fortunate to have a Mom who insisted in keeping her grandchildren when I did work.

Leaving my infant with a stranger does not sit well with me. When you add in a day care center where they won't receive individual care and attention...it's not happening. And having a nanny just leaves too much unaccountability for behaving well towards my child. I'd rather go on welfare and/or move in with my parents than subject my child to that.

IMO, children should be with their parents and/or loving grandparents until preschool.

Good lord, you're a moron.

Justify it all you want. Seeing infants stuck in a crib, playpen or highchair all day is heartbreaking. Young children should NOT be warehoused in daycare centers.

A good daycare does no such thing. Infants in a good daycare would be interacting with their teacher, playing on the floor, or with age appropriate toys, etc. My daughters daycare also has a jumbo stroller and takes the kids out for walks all the time.

What should NOT be happening is insecure moms who have never had their child in daycare commenting on what happens in a daycare. I bet you've never even stepped foot inside a daycare center. But I guess it's easier to be a judgemental bitch than educate yourself.

I have family and friends who work in these settings. It happens. Blind yourself all you want but it happens. In fact, my sister just left a job at a highly regarded center because the lead teachers treated the infants poorly including spanking on the hand and roughly putting them in the crib when they cried.

Name the center or it didn't happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been both: WOHM and SAHM. I'm incredibly fortunate to have a Mom who insisted in keeping her grandchildren when I did work.

Leaving my infant with a stranger does not sit well with me. When you add in a day care center where they won't receive individual care and attention...it's not happening. And having a nanny just leaves too much unaccountability for behaving well towards my child. I'd rather go on welfare and/or move in with my parents than subject my child to that.

IMO, children should be with their parents and/or loving grandparents until preschool.

It depends on the family member. My MIL is retired and kept my nephew. It set him behind socially a lot because all she did was stick him front of the tv. He knew all of the story lines on general hospital and one life to live. At the time people thought it was funny, but now he is behind in elementary school.

A lot of kids go to daycare and learn to read, write, and do all kinds of things that put them ahead. My daughter was really in love with her daycare teacher. When we moved she cried over her for days.

The fact that you are okay with fleecing the government for welfare shows you have low moral character.

I would say that might be more reflective of your child.

My Mom did no activities with my kids, they watched plenty of TV and they were never behind in school. But...my emphasis was on INFANT care, not preschool.

And if the choice is between putting my young infant in a center for 8+ hours a day and welfare, I'd absolutely choose welfare.

But that's not a valid choice. Welfare does not pay the bills - you clearly have no understanding of how very little one actually gets - and it would not pay for you to stay home. You would have to feed your kids subpar food and they would not be able to live in a safe comfortable home. You are grossly underestimating and misunderstanding what it actually means to be poor. The government is not interested in funding your ideals. And numerous studies have shown that poverty in early childhood is linked to just about every societal ill. So, really, that is your choice? You would teach your children - hopefully not a girl, my goodness - that if the choice were working and figuring out child care for 40 hours a week or abject poverty, out of which it is almost impossible to overcome, you choose to be poor. I am not sure anyone would ever applaud that reasoning.

Oh, how wrong you are. Born and raised in poverty, public housing and welfare.

Thankfully, this was not a choice I had to make. And neither do you all. Surviving on one spouse's income is entirely doable. Entirely.

I know LOTs of people that live on welfare. A life on welfare is shameful. It's sad for the kids and adults. People that live on welfare in the DC area live in some very bad and dangerous areas. Most rental homes in nice areas will not accept section 8 tenants. Welfare pays peanuts here compared to the cost of living. I'm sorry but living on welfare should not be an option to stay at home. It's setting a poor example for your child. It's also not the taxpayers job to fund you because you couldn't keep your legs closed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been both: WOHM and SAHM. I'm incredibly fortunate to have a Mom who insisted in keeping her grandchildren when I did work.

Leaving my infant with a stranger does not sit well with me. When you add in a day care center where they won't receive individual care and attention...it's not happening. And having a nanny just leaves too much unaccountability for behaving well towards my child. I'd rather go on welfare and/or move in with my parents than subject my child to that.

IMO, children should be with their parents and/or loving grandparents until preschool.

Good lord, you're a moron.

Justify it all you want. Seeing infants stuck in a crib, playpen or highchair all day is heartbreaking. Young children should NOT be warehoused in daycare centers.

Once again - DUH. I guarantee you no parent on this thread has a child in that situation.

Really? I'm sure their infants are in centers. And that's exactly what they do. It's a numbers thing. There just aren't enough workers to cater to your child.

You really have zero idea what you're talking about. When my daughter was an infant she was in a day care center, and the only time she was in the crib was when she was sleeping. When she had trouble sleeping, the workers held her and rocked her. The only time she was in a high chair was when she was eating. And they didn't even have playpens. She spent the majority of her time on the floor playing with all sorts of toys, and interacting with the workers and other babies. Sometimes listening to music. Sometimes in the jumbo stroller when the weather was nice.

And I worked in the same building where the center was located and dropped by all the time, so I know this was the norm, and not a special thing they put on when they were expecting a parent.

Please get a clue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been both: WOHM and SAHM. I'm incredibly fortunate to have a Mom who insisted in keeping her grandchildren when I did work.

Leaving my infant with a stranger does not sit well with me. When you add in a day care center where they won't receive individual care and attention...it's not happening. And having a nanny just leaves too much unaccountability for behaving well towards my child. I'd rather go on welfare and/or move in with my parents than subject my child to that.

IMO, children should be with their parents and/or loving grandparents until preschool.

Good lord, you're a moron.

Justify it all you want. Seeing infants stuck in a crib, playpen or highchair all day is heartbreaking. Young children should NOT be warehoused in daycare centers.

A good daycare does no such thing. Infants in a good daycare would be interacting with their teacher, playing on the floor, or with age appropriate toys, etc. My daughters daycare also has a jumbo stroller and takes the kids out for walks all the time.

What should NOT be happening is insecure moms who have never had their child in daycare commenting on what happens in a daycare. I bet you've never even stepped foot inside a daycare center. But I guess it's easier to be a judgemental bitch than educate yourself.

Different poster here. Which daycare do you speak of?

Children in the Shoe. Rock Spring. Wonders. Need more?

As far as you know, they all take infants 6 weeks and up?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been both: WOHM and SAHM. I'm incredibly fortunate to have a Mom who insisted in keeping her grandchildren when I did work.

Leaving my infant with a stranger does not sit well with me. When you add in a day care center where they won't receive individual care and attention...it's not happening. And having a nanny just leaves too much unaccountability for behaving well towards my child. I'd rather go on welfare and/or move in with my parents than subject my child to that.

IMO, children should be with their parents and/or loving grandparents until preschool.

Good lord, you're a moron.

Justify it all you want. Seeing infants stuck in a crib, playpen or highchair all day is heartbreaking. Young children should NOT be warehoused in daycare centers.

Once again - DUH. I guarantee you no parent on this thread has a child in that situation.

Really? I'm sure their infants are in centers. And that's exactly what they do. It's a numbers thing. There just aren't enough workers to cater to your child.

So the video monitors lie, I guess. Just stop, asshole.

Of course not and that would be the only way I'd ever consider leaving my infant in a center.

But most centers don't have cameras.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been both: WOHM and SAHM. I'm incredibly fortunate to have a Mom who insisted in keeping her grandchildren when I did work.

Leaving my infant with a stranger does not sit well with me. When you add in a day care center where they won't receive individual care and attention...it's not happening. And having a nanny just leaves too much unaccountability for behaving well towards my child. I'd rather go on welfare and/or move in with my parents than subject my child to that.

IMO, children should be with their parents and/or loving grandparents until preschool.

It depends on the family member. My MIL is retired and kept my nephew. It set him behind socially a lot because all she did was stick him front of the tv. He knew all of the story lines on general hospital and one life to live. At the time people thought it was funny, but now he is behind in elementary school.

A lot of kids go to daycare and learn to read, write, and do all kinds of things that put them ahead. My daughter was really in love with her daycare teacher. When we moved she cried over her for days.

The fact that you are okay with fleecing the government for welfare shows you have low moral character.

I would say that might be more reflective of your child.

My Mom did no activities with my kids, they watched plenty of TV and they were never behind in school. But...my emphasis was on INFANT care, not preschool.

And if the choice is between putting my young infant in a center for 8+ hours a day and welfare, I'd absolutely choose welfare.

So basically your mom did not watch your child, the TV did. Well I'm glad the TV did such a great job of watching your kid. I'm sure your baby enjoyed watching 8+ hours a day of non stop tv.

You're confusing infant with preschool care...

I know the difference. I'm sure grandma exposed them to all the soaps and golden girls, lol.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been both: WOHM and SAHM. I'm incredibly fortunate to have a Mom who insisted in keeping her grandchildren when I did work.

Leaving my infant with a stranger does not sit well with me. When you add in a day care center where they won't receive individual care and attention...it's not happening. And having a nanny just leaves too much unaccountability for behaving well towards my child. I'd rather go on welfare and/or move in with my parents than subject my child to that.

IMO, children should be with their parents and/or loving grandparents until preschool.

Do you not understand how this sounds? My mother was available to take care of my kid so that's what I did and I could go back to work guilt-free…the rest of you can go eff yourselves. My husband makes a ton of money so I could quit my job and stay home…the rest of you can go eff yourselves.

No one cares what you think, because you're a smug bitch.

You missed where I said I've also SAH...on my DH'S then $60k salary . It can be done but folks don't want to make the true sacrifices to make it happen. It's unfortunate.

Do you know what other people's bills are to say it can be done? For all we know you ran up a bunch of credit card bills. Just because you are okay with being a welfare queen doesn't mean other people want too.

Again, it can be done but it takes sacrifices. Most aren't willing to make them.

And that's fine, unless you are a narcissist you should have no problem with the fact that we are not all the same and people have different ideas about what they want for their families.

Hey, make whatever choice you want. Doesn't mean I can't think it's a terrible one. IMO, if you can't afford to care for your infant yourself, you can't afford the child and are no better than the welfare queen. Only, she might be better. At least she's caring for her own child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been both: WOHM and SAHM. I'm incredibly fortunate to have a Mom who insisted in keeping her grandchildren when I did work.

Leaving my infant with a stranger does not sit well with me. When you add in a day care center where they won't receive individual care and attention...it's not happening. And having a nanny just leaves too much unaccountability for behaving well towards my child. I'd rather go on welfare and/or move in with my parents than subject my child to that.

IMO, children should be with their parents and/or loving grandparents until preschool.

Do you not understand how this sounds? My mother was available to take care of my kid so that's what I did and I could go back to work guilt-free…the rest of you can go eff yourselves. My husband makes a ton of money so I could quit my job and stay home…the rest of you can go eff yourselves.

No one cares what you think, because you're a smug bitch.

You missed where I said I've also SAH...on my DH'S then $60k salary . It can be done but folks don't want to make the true sacrifices to make it happen. It's unfortunate.

Do you know what other people's bills are to say it can be done? For all we know you ran up a bunch of credit card bills. Just because you are okay with being a welfare queen doesn't mean other people want too.

Again, it can be done but it takes sacrifices. Most aren't willing to make them.

And that's fine, unless you are a narcissist you should have no problem with the fact that we are not all the same and people have different ideas about what they want for their families.

Hey, make whatever choice you want. Doesn't mean I can't think it's a terrible one. IMO, if you can't afford to care for your infant yourself, you can't afford the child and are no better than the welfare queen. Only, she might be better. At least she's caring for her own child.

LOL. You mean if your husband can't? Keep spreading your legs for cash in your account.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been both: WOHM and SAHM. I'm incredibly fortunate to have a Mom who insisted in keeping her grandchildren when I did work.

Leaving my infant with a stranger does not sit well with me. When you add in a day care center where they won't receive individual care and attention...it's not happening. And having a nanny just leaves too much unaccountability for behaving well towards my child. I'd rather go on welfare and/or move in with my parents than subject my child to that.

IMO, children should be with their parents and/or loving grandparents until preschool.

Good lord, you're a moron.

Justify it all you want. Seeing infants stuck in a crib, playpen or highchair all day is heartbreaking. Young children should NOT be warehoused in daycare centers.

Once again - DUH. I guarantee you no parent on this thread has a child in that situation.

Really? I'm sure their infants are in centers. And that's exactly what they do. It's a numbers thing. There just aren't enough workers to cater to your child.

So the video monitors lie, I guess. Just stop, asshole.

Of course not and that would be the only way I'd ever consider leaving my infant in a center.

But most centers don't have cameras.

Both daycares my daughter was in had cameras. We were allowed to go in at any time and watch our child on the video. My daughter also once fell and scratched her face and the daycare allowed us to watch the video of when it happened. Yes there are some horrible, shady daycares. In my opinion those are usually pretty easy to spot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been both: WOHM and SAHM. I'm incredibly fortunate to have a Mom who insisted in keeping her grandchildren when I did work.

Leaving my infant with a stranger does not sit well with me. When you add in a day care center where they won't receive individual care and attention...it's not happening. And having a nanny just leaves too much unaccountability for behaving well towards my child. I'd rather go on welfare and/or move in with my parents than subject my child to that.

IMO, children should be with their parents and/or loving grandparents until preschool.

Good lord, you're a moron.

Justify it all you want. Seeing infants stuck in a crib, playpen or highchair all day is heartbreaking. Young children should NOT be warehoused in daycare centers.

A good daycare does no such thing. Infants in a good daycare would be interacting with their teacher, playing on the floor, or with age appropriate toys, etc. My daughters daycare also has a jumbo stroller and takes the kids out for walks all the time.

What should NOT be happening is insecure moms who have never had their child in daycare commenting on what happens in a daycare. I bet you've never even stepped foot inside a daycare center. But I guess it's easier to be a judgemental bitch than educate yourself.

I have family and friends who work in these settings. It happens. Blind yourself all you want but it happens. In fact, my sister just left a job at a highly regarded center because the lead teachers treated the infants poorly including spanking on the hand and roughly putting them in the crib when they cried.

Name the center or it didn't happen.

Again, blind yourself all you want. It happens. It's not always out and out abuse, but rather rough treatment. That's a subtle mistreatment that is much more pervasive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been both: WOHM and SAHM. I'm incredibly fortunate to have a Mom who insisted in keeping her grandchildren when I did work.

Leaving my infant with a stranger does not sit well with me. When you add in a day care center where they won't receive individual care and attention...it's not happening. And having a nanny just leaves too much unaccountability for behaving well towards my child. I'd rather go on welfare and/or move in with my parents than subject my child to that.

IMO, children should be with their parents and/or loving grandparents until preschool.

It depends on the family member. My MIL is retired and kept my nephew. It set him behind socially a lot because all she did was stick him front of the tv. He knew all of the story lines on general hospital and one life to live. At the time people thought it was funny, but now he is behind in elementary school.

A lot of kids go to daycare and learn to read, write, and do all kinds of things that put them ahead. My daughter was really in love with her daycare teacher. When we moved she cried over her for days.

The fact that you are okay with fleecing the government for welfare shows you have low moral character.

I would say that might be more reflective of your child.

My Mom did no activities with my kids, they watched plenty of TV and they were never behind in school. But...my emphasis was on INFANT care, not preschool.

And if the choice is between putting my young infant in a center for 8+ hours a day and welfare, I'd absolutely choose welfare.

But that's not a valid choice. Welfare does not pay the bills - you clearly have no understanding of how very little one actually gets - and it would not pay for you to stay home. You would have to feed your kids subpar food and they would not be able to live in a safe comfortable home. You are grossly underestimating and misunderstanding what it actually means to be poor. The government is not interested in funding your ideals. And numerous studies have shown that poverty in early childhood is linked to just about every societal ill. So, really, that is your choice? You would teach your children - hopefully not a girl, my goodness - that if the choice were working and figuring out child care for 40 hours a week or abject poverty, out of which it is almost impossible to overcome, you choose to be poor. I am not sure anyone would ever applaud that reasoning.

Oh, how wrong you are. Born and raised in poverty, public housing and welfare.

Thankfully, this was not a choice I had to make. And neither do you all. Surviving on one spouse's income is entirely doable. Entirely.

I know LOTs of people that live on welfare. A life on welfare is shameful. It's sad for the kids and adults. People that live on welfare in the DC area live in some very bad and dangerous areas. Most rental homes in nice areas will not accept section 8 tenants. Welfare pays peanuts here compared to the cost of living. I'm sorry but living on welfare should not be an option to stay at home. It's setting a poor example for your child. It's also not the taxpayers job to fund you because you couldn't keep your legs closed.

Get off the welfare kick, as that's obviously not the best choice. Getting by on one spouse's income IS possible. Why do you ignore this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been both: WOHM and SAHM. I'm incredibly fortunate to have a Mom who insisted in keeping her grandchildren when I did work.

Leaving my infant with a stranger does not sit well with me. When you add in a day care center where they won't receive individual care and attention...it's not happening. And having a nanny just leaves too much unaccountability for behaving well towards my child. I'd rather go on welfare and/or move in with my parents than subject my child to that.

IMO, children should be with their parents and/or loving grandparents until preschool.

Good lord, you're a moron.

Justify it all you want. Seeing infants stuck in a crib, playpen or highchair all day is heartbreaking. Young children should NOT be warehoused in daycare centers.

Once again - DUH. I guarantee you no parent on this thread has a child in that situation.

Really? I'm sure their infants are in centers. And that's exactly what they do. It's a numbers thing. There just aren't enough workers to cater to your child.

You really have zero idea what you're talking about. When my daughter was an infant she was in a day care center, and the only time she was in the crib was when she was sleeping. When she had trouble sleeping, the workers held her and rocked her. The only time she was in a high chair was when she was eating. And they didn't even have playpens. She spent the majority of her time on the floor playing with all sorts of toys, and interacting with the workers and other babies. Sometimes listening to music. Sometimes in the jumbo stroller when the weather was nice.

And I worked in the same building where the center was located and dropped by all the time, so I know this was the norm, and not a special thing they put on when they were expecting a parent.

Please get a clue.

Did the center have cameras that allowed you to see this at every hour of the day? If not, it's absurd that you think you know what happens ALL DAY at a center.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been both: WOHM and SAHM. I'm incredibly fortunate to have a Mom who insisted in keeping her grandchildren when I did work.

Leaving my infant with a stranger does not sit well with me. When you add in a day care center where they won't receive individual care and attention...it's not happening. And having a nanny just leaves too much unaccountability for behaving well towards my child. I'd rather go on welfare and/or move in with my parents than subject my child to that.

IMO, children should be with their parents and/or loving grandparents until preschool.

Do you not understand how this sounds? My mother was available to take care of my kid so that's what I did and I could go back to work guilt-free…the rest of you can go eff yourselves. My husband makes a ton of money so I could quit my job and stay home…the rest of you can go eff yourselves.

No one cares what you think, because you're a smug bitch.

You missed where I said I've also SAH...on my DH'S then $60k salary . It can be done but folks don't want to make the true sacrifices to make it happen. It's unfortunate.

Do you know what other people's bills are to say it can be done? For all we know you ran up a bunch of credit card bills. Just because you are okay with being a welfare queen doesn't mean other people want too.

Again, it can be done but it takes sacrifices. Most aren't willing to make them.

And that's fine, unless you are a narcissist you should have no problem with the fact that we are not all the same and people have different ideas about what they want for their families.

Hey, make whatever choice you want. Doesn't mean I can't think it's a terrible one. IMO, if you can't afford to care for your infant yourself, you can't afford the child and are no better than the welfare queen. Only, she might be better. At least she's caring for her own child.

You can think whatever the hell you want as far as I'm concerned. I pay for all of my child's things out of my own pocket along with my husband and I'm very proud of that. We don't look to the government or anyone else to fund our lifestyle unlike yourself. I think people like you should be on birth control. What if your husband loses that little job of his or dumps you. I guess you'll just lap it up in a life of luxury on welfare or bum off of your parents who are probably on a limited income themselves I would bet.