Magnet MS results - Takoma Park & Eastern - anyone heard today?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can someone who is not Math challenged like me explain the 99th percentile references.
According to this WA state school website, the SAS scores for the 99th percentile range between 135 and 160. That is a large range and if you are rejecting a kid from Cold Spring with a score of 150 to accept a kid from another ES with a score of 137, chances are these kids are an entire standard deviation from each other in terms of aptitude/ability (not sure what the correct word is). On another website they said that for SAS scores the mean is 100 and the standard deviation is 16 points so in the example I just gave there would be a big difference between these two kids. There is no doubt that both students need much more than an honors class in a typical MCPS MS would offer but the higher scorer would need the enrichment and acceleration more than the lower scorer surely.

https://www.nsd.org/Page/28102

We know the median was 99th percentile, we don't know the raw score that corresponds to. We don't know if the median was 99.0 or 99.9.

Yes, there is a difference, but kind of hard to argue that a 99th percentile student isn't capable of magnet work. Maybe the selection committee wasn't given raw scores, either.

Exactly. Close your computer and step away.
This wasn't some prize for the 200 kids with the highest IQs in the land.
Test results were ONE factor in selection.

Although you could argue that the kids with the higher scores might need the acceleration and enrichment more.
If the higher COGAT test scores are also echoed by higher MAP R and higher MAP M scores (which you can't prep for), it does indicate that MCPS is doing this group of kids a real disservice if they are assuming there is no difference between a 135 SAS score and a 147 SAS score and if they giving undue emphasis on geography.
fwiw I don't have a kid at Cold Spring but I have been around kids in other MCPS magnet programs (ES, MS and HS) and bright high achieving kids in a regular W school district. There is some overlap but one big difference I have noticed is the thirst for knowledge you see amongst magnet kids. Perhaps not all of them, but as a group these kids love to learn and seek out challenge and something special happens when you put a group of kids like this in one place together. There are also far more genuine outliers in a magnet program than you would find in a regular school. This is why it is sad to hear what happened to the Cold Spring kids. An acceptance to a middle school magnet is not a "prize" for a kid whose parents force them to prep as some posters have implied, it is rather the only appropriate place for a large number of the kids currently in Cold Spring who received rejection letters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It looks like cold spring principal already confirmed the peer group consideration. Why do some people still try to downplay these kids’ achievements? Will there be kids with even superior scores? Likely. Someone disclosed median (97/99/97/99) of admitted. It already told you that at least half got scores not as good as 99ers. We are all entitled to our own opinions. But let us form opinions consistent with the info we obtained.

Thanks I missed that earlier post.
So the median score of accepted students was 97/99/97/99. Do we know of any rejected kids who got scores that were higher than this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It looks like cold spring principal already confirmed the peer group consideration. Why do some people still try to downplay these kids’ achievements? Will there be kids with even superior scores? Likely. Someone disclosed median (97/99/97/99) of admitted. It already told you that at least half got scores not as good as 99ers. We are all entitled to our own opinions. But let us form opinions consistent with the info we obtained.

So half scored below 99, and half scored above 99?

Except in the NFL, where people routinely give 110%, that is not how percentiles work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am not sure if this information was sent to all the families who applied to the MS magnets but just in case this two page FAQs from MCPS describes their selection process this year and also outlines the appeals process. The deadline to appeal is February 23rd

http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/curriculum/specialprograms/middle/Frequently%20Asked%20Questions%20Eastern%20and%20Takoma%20Park%20Magnet%20ProgramsFINAL.pdf

It is very unfortunate there are not both more magnet seats and stronger home school programs and appropriate grouping for the many highly intelligent, engaged and hardworking students in all parts of MCPS. Let's work on that.

But if you are appealing based on a change in the percent of HGC students who got in this year compared to the percent of students who got in from that HGC last year, know that seems to be the case for all HGCs. If you are appealing because you believe the decline was greater in your HGC than in other HGCs consider whether your HGC's median levels have tended to be highest for the portion of the application exam most influenced by in home or outside the home prepping. If that is the case, consider the impact of the removal of that style math from the admissions test. In addition, consider how many additional students scored at or above the median acceptance test levels as a result of the expansion of the pool by several hundred percent. Oh and upthread somewhere is reference to an MCPS official saying the admission committee wouldn't know your home ES. Ok, appeal away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Although you could argue that the kids with the higher scores might need the acceleration and enrichment more.
If the higher COGAT test scores are also echoed by higher MAP R and higher MAP M scores (which you can't prep for), it does indicate that MCPS is doing this group of kids a real disservice if they are assuming there is no difference between a 135 SAS score and a 147 SAS score and if they giving undue emphasis on geography.
fwiw I don't have a kid at Cold Spring but I have been around kids in other MCPS magnet programs (ES, MS and HS) and bright high achieving kids in a regular W school district. There is some overlap but one big difference I have noticed is the thirst for knowledge you see amongst magnet kids. Perhaps not all of them, but as a group these kids love to learn and seek out challenge and something special happens when you put a group of kids like this in one place together. There are also far more genuine outliers in a magnet program than you would find in a regular school. This is why it is sad to hear what happened to the Cold Spring kids. An acceptance to a middle school magnet is not a "prize" for a kid whose parents force them to prep as some posters have implied, it is rather the only appropriate place for a large number of the kids currently in Cold Spring who received rejection letters.

I am starting to feel very sorry for these Cold Spring kids, who are more brilliant than any other kids in the whole school district, but who have now had their middle-school years ruined -- RUINED! Rejected and despised by MCPS; children of sorrows, acquainted with grief.

(I am not being sincere.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not sure if this information was sent to all the families who applied to the MS magnets but just in case this two page FAQs from MCPS describes their selection process this year and also outlines the appeals process. The deadline to appeal is February 23rd

http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/curriculum/specialprograms/middle/Frequently%20Asked%20Questions%20Eastern%20and%20Takoma%20Park%20Magnet%20ProgramsFINAL.pdf

It is very unfortunate there are not both more magnet seats and stronger home school programs and appropriate grouping for the many highly intelligent, engaged and hardworking students in all parts of MCPS. Let's work on that.

But if you are appealing based on a change in the percent of HGC students who got in this year compared to the percent of students who got in from that HGC last year, know that seems to be the case for all HGCs. If you are appealing because you believe the decline was greater in your HGC than in other HGCs consider whether your HGC's median levels have tended to be highest for the portion of the application exam most influenced by in home or outside the home prepping. If that is the case, consider the impact of the removal of that style math from the admissions test. In addition, consider how many additional students scored at or above the median acceptance test levels as a result of the expansion of the pool by several hundred percent. Oh and upthread somewhere is reference to an MCPS official saying the admission committee wouldn't know your home ES. Ok, appeal away.

This ain't right. How will they be able to factor in 'the cohort' if they wouldn't know the child's ES? Of course, they would!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

This ain't right. How will they be able to factor in 'the cohort' if they wouldn't know the child's ES? Of course, they would!

How about -- by knowing the child's home MS? I.e., the school to which the child would go, if the child were not admitted to the magnet program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This ain't right. How will they be able to factor in 'the cohort' if they wouldn't know the child's ES? Of course, they would!

How about -- by knowing the child's home MS? I.e., the school to which the child would go, if the child were not admitted to the magnet program.

That's still a lopsided process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It looks like cold spring principal already confirmed the peer group consideration. Why do some people still try to downplay these kids’ achievements? Will there be kids with even superior scores? Likely. Someone disclosed median (97/99/97/99) of admitted. It already told you that at least half got scores not as good as 99ers. We are all entitled to our own opinions. But let us form opinions consistent with the info we obtained.

Thanks I missed that earlier post.
So the median score of accepted students was 97/99/97/99. Do we know of any rejected kids who got scores that were higher than this?

Yes, the early parts of the thread are filled with those kinds of kids (99% in all categories, or maybe one category with a 98), and my kid was one of them. But of course that's always true that some kids with higher than the median will be rejected - that's the nature of how a median works.

When things like essays and teacher recs are taken into account, people with top scores who don't get in can feel there are other justifiable reasons to be excluded. Personally, it is also OK with me when people with both hardships and lower scores get in -- let's say 50% get in that way. Fine. What about the other 50%. We know that some UMC kids, no hardships, from good schools with supposed cohorts, have gotten in, but there is no evidence that those kids were the very top scoring kids on the various metrics that can distinguish that (the highest MAP M or MAP R scores; not just PARCC scores of 5, but the high-end of the 5's -- for example, my rejected kid's math PARCC score is close to perfect). MCPS didn't say that they randomly chose among a top group of UMC kids going to good schools with no hardships (let's say the 97-99 percenters). If they had, I would accept that too. And they masked the admission test results by not giving us SAS scores, so we can't know from that metric, but we have our doubts based on anecdotal evidence. That is why we are frustrated. At least it's why I am.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Previously, the median for accepted students was at 75% of the full test score. For example, if the full score for math was 60, the median score for the accepted students was at 40 to 47. These scores were printed on the rejection letter from MCPS. My DC received two althought her score were at the median of accepted students. She was not enrolled because the accepted students from her ES and MS have scores aboved the publiched median.
Last year, the HS magnet test became much easier. The median for the accepted students were 55/60 in one of the catagory.
When MCPS waters down the test, instead of a normal distribution curve (bell curve), the curve will be like a plateau. Now, AEI can admitt anyone they want. There is nor difference between 99% and 93% or 90%. The kids are equally smart.
I would like to see if MCPS is willing to publish the accepted students' median MAP-w and MAP-r scores, at least these tests are open ended, and no one prepares for them.

For the last time, the test this year was a secret, and no one could not prep even if he or she wanted to. Someone above said that once word got out that it was the COGAT, the later test takers prepped. I don't know "how word got out." It certainly wasn't on this site, which would really be the only way for the "masses" to know. Moreover, how could you even prep in a week for such a test? It seems that there are some on this thead who are bitter that there are kids scoring extremely high and are attributing it to "being prepped." Of course, next year, the kids can all prep babes on knowledge gleaned from this thead!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This ain't right. How will they be able to factor in 'the cohort' if they wouldn't know the child's ES? Of course, they would!

How about -- by knowing the child's home MS? I.e., the school to which the child would go, if the child were not admitted to the magnet program.

Exactly!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It looks like cold spring principal already confirmed the peer group consideration. Why do some people still try to downplay these kids’ achievements? Will there be kids with even superior scores? Likely. Someone disclosed median (97/99/97/99) of admitted. It already told you that at least half got scores not as good as 99ers. We are all entitled to our own opinions. But let us form opinions consistent with the info we obtained.

Thanks I missed that earlier post.
So the median score of accepted students was 97/99/97/99. Do we know of any rejected kids who got scores that were higher than this?

I know of a rejected child, whose home school was majority low-income and majority Black, who had 99% across the board. That's why I'm not ready to jump on the "CS was discriminated against for their zip code" bandwagon, because I KNOW kids with high scores who were in the "right" zip code according to these folks, and were not admitted.

[Anonymous]

+1, you've really put things back in perspective. I think the melodramatic poster is doing a disservice to her cause. The real issue is that there are too many qualified students for magnet slots and there is no support for students returning to the home school. We need to remember everyone here is fighting for their own DC's education and not that shouldn't imply fighting against someone else's opportunity.

YES. This right here is the crux. MCPS could throw every kid above 98th percentile into a hat and draw at random and still get a class of kids who can handle the work. So....what do you do when you have several times more qualified candidates than you have spots? The same thing as has always happened. Some kids who could do the work are passed over.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

+1, you've really put things back in perspective. I think the melodramatic poster is doing a disservice to her cause. The real issue is that there are too many qualified students for magnet slots and there is no support for students returning to the home school. We need to remember everyone here is fighting for their own DC's education and not that shouldn't imply fighting against someone else's opportunity.

YES. This right here is the crux. MCPS could throw every kid above 98th percentile into a hat and draw at random and still get a class of kids who can handle the work. So....what do you do when you have several times more qualified candidates than you have spots? The same thing as has always happened. Some kids who could do the work are passed over.

But this has always been the case - more candidates than spots - except that this year there's WAY more candidates than spots. I don't know what MCPS has achieved but now the process looks even more arbitrary and unfair than before.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

+1, you've really put things back in perspective. I think the melodramatic poster is doing a disservice to her cause. The real issue is that there are too many qualified students for magnet slots and there is no support for students returning to the home school. We need to remember everyone here is fighting for their own DC's education and not that shouldn't imply fighting against someone else's opportunity.

YES. This right here is the crux. MCPS could throw every kid above 98th percentile into a hat and draw at random and still get a class of kids who can handle the work. So....what do you do when you have several times more qualified candidates than you have spots? The same thing as has always happened. Some kids who could do the work are passed over.

But this has always been the case - more candidates than spots - except that this year there's WAY more candidates than spots. I don't know what MCPS has achieved but now the process looks even more arbitrary and unfair than before.

The process looks more arbitrary and unfair from the perspective of white/Asian middle class families. From the perspective of poor and working class families, and non-Asian families of color, it is exactly the same level of arbitrary and unfair that it has always been, maybe a bit better.