Magnet MS results - Takoma Park & Eastern - anyone heard today?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, this was confusing. What I meant was, perhaps the kids who got in from Western county schools scored so high they did not have an equivalently high scoring peer from a middle school someplace without a "cohort" to be placed in the spot instead, so they got the spot. Or another possibility is the committee understood that they did have to throw a few bones the way of schools in higher income areas and let some of those kids in, even though they have home middle schools with higher ability peers. I don't know. Who can say? It's not really possible that there are fewer kids from Cold Sprng just because they cast a wider net. I simply don't personally believe it. I still believe those kids would be some of the highest scoring kids in the whole county for a variety of reasons even with way more kids tested. The 700 kids tested before weren't some random selection of 700 kids. Yes, it was a smaller number of kids. But it was a self selected cohort of highly motivated kids willing to fill out a lengthy application and yes, with parents willing to support that. Of course within the 3300 additional kids screened you will have children who in the past have just not applied and this year did...but something else is going on.

No, it was a self-selected cohort of highly-motivated parents. Specifically, highly-motivated parents who were in the know.

Every year (including this year for HS) we receive a notice from MCPS regarding the opportunity to the HS/MS Magnet or HGC. All parents of MCPS students are in the know on the same level ! We have three studnets at MCPS -- but only one applied for magnet and got in because we knew this one had a shot. MCPS gave ALL parents the opportunity to select their kids to compete, and we did.

Look at the posts in this thread from folks who wouldn't have thought to have their child tested, but were accepted. Those were self-identified white, English speaking, middle class families. Now imagine you are not all of the above. MCPS is casting a wider net because they did research and found that kids who could have done the work weren't even taking the test.

+ 1 I used to be someone who also thought like the PP quoted above--i.e., that all parents were notified, so why the angst? Then our family spent four years living in a different country with a very different educational system. Even after four years and speaking the local language pretty well and being employed there, DH and I just didn't have the same comprehension of what to do to direct our kids' educational path. We hadn't grown up with it, didn't know others who had grown up with it, and there were hoops to jump through, etc. I knew enough to get our children into school, but definitely not enough to take full advantage of everything. I'm not proud of the fact that it took a personal experience like that to give me some more empathy and a better grasp of the hurdles faced by some families, but there it is.

Until MCPS is more transparent with the results of the selection process, we all should be reluctant to do a comparison of these children as to who "deserves" to go the most. We do not know how much geographical consideration was put in place by the county. We do not know how cohort at the MS school came into play and what limitations were. Parents of kids who got in should not necessarily gloat that their kids are "better" and "more qualified" but somehow were just forgotten and denied all this time. Frankly, we do not know the specifics of the selection criteria and how much it weighs in the final decisions. We do not know how this new group of kids will fair at the middle school magnets next year. They are presented with a great opportunities and let's hope they take full advantage of it. Similarly, parents of kids, especially those who have already proven their merits having been successful in the HGCs, should move on and try their best to work with the county and the schools to ensure that the local system have something put in place for these hardworking kids. I know it sucks but sometimes we can do all the right things in life but just don't get the prize. There is really no need to discredit the children who got in this year. Help yourselves and your kids move on, and work with what you have at this point to make proper changes. Bright kids who work hard will not be deterred by a small obstacle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, this was confusing. What I meant was, perhaps the kids who got in from Western county schools scored so high they did not have an equivalently high scoring peer from a middle school someplace without a "cohort" to be placed in the spot instead, so they got the spot. Or another possibility is the committee understood that they did have to throw a few bones the way of schools in higher income areas and let some of those kids in, even though they have home middle schools with higher ability peers. I don't know. Who can say? It's not really possible that there are fewer kids from Cold Sprng just because they cast a wider net. I simply don't personally believe it. I still believe those kids would be some of the highest scoring kids in the whole county for a variety of reasons even with way more kids tested. The 700 kids tested before weren't some random selection of 700 kids. Yes, it was a smaller number of kids. But it was a self selected cohort of highly motivated kids willing to fill out a lengthy application and yes, with parents willing to support that. Of course within the 3300 additional kids screened you will have children who in the past have just not applied and this year did...but something else is going on.

No, it was a self-selected cohort of highly-motivated parents. Specifically, highly-motivated parents who were in the know.

Every year (including this year for HS) we receive a notice from MCPS regarding the opportunity to the HS/MS Magnet or HGC. All parents of MCPS students are in the know on the same level ! We have three studnets at MCPS -- but only one applied for magnet and got in because we knew this one had a shot. MCPS gave ALL parents the opportunity to select their kids to compete, and we did.

Look at the posts in this thread from folks who wouldn't have thought to have their child tested, but were accepted. Those were self-identified white, English speaking, middle class families. Now imagine you are not all of the above. MCPS is casting a wider net because they did research and found that kids who could have done the work weren't even taking the test.

If this is what happened then I applaud MCPS. If on the other hand kids with higher scores were deliberately passed over simply because they lived in a more affluent neighborhood, then that is not fair. We need to see the raw scores of accepted and rejected kids to know for sure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The highest performing cohort on the magnet entrance exam from Cold Spring has been making the highest performing cohort in TPMA and Blair. This highest-performing cohort on one test also excels in MAP-M and MAP-R, PARCC, MSA for the past twenty and thirty years.
This cohort will be the scientists who find a cure for cancer and discover the reusable fuel to save the earth, the engineers who build new computers and smartphones. Some of the students from this cohort will your doctors, your lawyers, or your financial advisor.
They may become teachers or politicians.
Most of the students in this cohort are from middle-class families with taxpaying, working parents.
It is not fair for MCPS to deny their chance to join the MS magnets, just because of their zip code.

OK...I am a Cold Spring parent, but this post made me laugh out loud. It is a bit melodramatic. I truly think something else was at play in this selection process. MCPS did cast a larger net and I think it is fantastic. Having said that, I do question the selection process when only 2 kids out of this entire cohort were offered admission. I do not know if these are kids who will one day find the cure to cancer or are future politicians or whatever else, but I do know they scored incredibly high on MAP tests, PARCC and whatever other they had to take as part of the magnet testing. I am sure there are a few kids who prep, but I also know there are plenty of them who did not. It is really terrible how some people cast such negative lights on these children. I, for one, did not even know who Dr. Li was until this board kept bring his/her name up. The kids at Cold Spring ES are truly bright, motivated, curious and incredibly hard-working. When you have a combination of smartness and eagerness (and I do not imply this for only at Cold Spring, but at other schools as well), these kids deserve an opportunity to be engaged with the proper curriculum. Given that MCPS has decided to change the selection process, I also think they should also be prepare with something for these kids as they return to their home middle schools. To not have a plan in place seems most irresponsible. The fifth graders at Cold Spring are learning material that I was not taught until I had reached 7th/8th grade. It would be ashamed to have them repeat for the next 2 years. That is not thriving and is not in the true interest of the students.

My kid does not wish to have the long bus ride to Takoma. I can't imagine any kid would prefer this. I do think that sometimes parents feel that they have very little choice because MCPS turns a blind eye to what these 99%-ers need, thus the overwhelming and hyperbolic emotions from some parents.

Thank you for this post

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If I were to guess, MCPS had various test minimums they were looking for, but they didn't give much extra weight to an applicant based on how high in the 99th percentile a score might be. After that, they consider teacher recommendation, written response--subjective criterion--but, everyone in the pool is more than capable of attending the magnet. I'm doubting that zip was a big part of the process. But students who have been expecting admission based on an extra high test scores would find themselves in a much bigger pool. If those students really are clustered in a given zip code, well ... 40 page thread.

Why are you posting to this thread? There weren't even any teacher recs this year. And they already did say that the cohort of your home school was a consideration. Clearly the kids that got in from the Western county schools probably didn't have a peer at an Eastern county school, or not a peer that was as good a fit for the magnet, or the committee realized they had to accept someone from those schools or it would just look too bad. I'm in the DCC for the record, so I don't have a dog in that fight. My kid didn't get in, but our home middle school is in Silver Spring. The county just does not have enough enrichment and accleration opportunity at the middle school level. This whole thing is absolutely ridiculous. Screening 4000 kids for 200 spots? Pretending that only 200 kids need or deserve enrichment or acceleration? Leaving it up to parents to advocate with the home school principal for this? Come on. That's a joke.

My bad, academic record instead of recommendations. I'm in the same boat as you, DCC student heading to home school and I've been through this before, so I haven't spent enough time figuring out what has changed but I believe a change was in order (even though it hasn't benefitted my child either). It has always been the case that there are not enough slots for the kids who are capable and could benefit from the magnets. It is always hard on the ones who don't get in and it's true the home schools offer nothing remotely similar. I actually find it encouraging that the letter suggests parents badger their home schools for change. I know people read this as foisting work onto parents, but I suspect this wording wouldn't be approved if there weren't actually some plans in place to support these changes. Let's hope and let's work toward that, because the magnets are a false hope for too many. If Cold Spring is the ultimate injustice, remember even in the good ole days, half the students were sen't back to their home school.

I have no idea what has changed this year, just like everyone else here. There are the complaints that CS is underrepresented and the suggestions of discrimination but we don't know who has benefitted. Personally I think a wider net does mean they've found more students everywhere and this means fewer spots for groups that traditionally are over represented.

I believe for the magnet to be just, it needs to be available to anyone with an MCPS education who has a remarkable track record and excels on the screening test. And if that's the net that's cast there are far too many students for the number of magnet seats. If there are also students who are years ahead of the MCPS curriculum, of course they should be considered for the magnets, but they shouldn't be guaranteed a spot and they shouldn't make it impossible for someone who has shown great potential with fewer resources to get into the program. Why? Because no matter how that student has become so advanced, clearly things are already working for them. They shouldn't be penalized, but they sure don't need a leg up. If a correction like this has occurred in the selection process, it's a good thing.

But the bigger issue is the magnets have been a distraction from demanding better instruction at the home schools. DCUM is a poor source of data, but just look at how many threads about curriculum get shoe horned back to a discussion of the magnets. Any simple question is met with, well that's not how it works at the magnet and the implicit guess your DC wasn't magnet material, what did you expect?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, this was confusing. What I meant was, perhaps the kids who got in from Western county schools scored so high they did not have an equivalently high scoring peer from a middle school someplace without a "cohort" to be placed in the spot instead, so they got the spot. Or another possibility is the committee understood that they did have to throw a few bones the way of schools in higher income areas and let some of those kids in, even though they have home middle schools with higher ability peers. I don't know. Who can say? It's not really possible that there are fewer kids from Cold Sprng just because they cast a wider net. I simply don't personally believe it. I still believe those kids would be some of the highest scoring kids in the whole county for a variety of reasons even with way more kids tested. The 700 kids tested before weren't some random selection of 700 kids. Yes, it was a smaller number of kids. But it was a self selected cohort of highly motivated kids willing to fill out a lengthy application and yes, with parents willing to support that. Of course within the 3300 additional kids screened you will have children who in the past have just not applied and this year did...but something else is going on.

No, it was a self-selected cohort of highly-motivated parents. Specifically, highly-motivated parents who were in the know.

Every year (including this year for HS) we receive a notice from MCPS regarding the opportunity to the HS/MS Magnet or HGC. All parents of MCPS students are in the know on the same level ! We have three studnets at MCPS -- but only one applied for magnet and got in because we knew this one had a shot. MCPS gave ALL parents the opportunity to select their kids to compete, and we did.

Look at the posts in this thread from folks who wouldn't have thought to have their child tested, but were accepted. Those were self-identified white, English speaking, middle class families. Now imagine you are not all of the above. MCPS is casting a wider net because they did research and found that kids who could have done the work weren't even taking the test.

+ 1 I used to be someone who also thought like the PP quoted above--i.e., that all parents were notified, so why the angst? Then our family spent four years living in a different country with a very different educational system. Even after four years and speaking the local language pretty well and being employed there, DH and I just didn't have the same comprehension of what to do to direct our kids' educational path. We hadn't grown up with it, didn't know others who had grown up with it, and there were hoops to jump through, etc. I knew enough to get our children into school, but definitely not enough to take full advantage of everything. I'm not proud of the fact that it took a personal experience like that to give me some more empathy and a better grasp of the hurdles faced by some families, but there it is.

Until MCPS is more transparent with the results of the selection process, we all should be reluctant to do a comparison of these children as to who "deserves" to go the most. We do not know how much geographical consideration was put in place by the county. We do not know how cohort at the MS school came into play and what limitations were. Parents of kids who got in should not necessarily gloat that their kids are "better" and "more qualified" but somehow were just forgotten and denied all this time. Frankly, we do not know the specifics of the selection criteria and how much it weighs in the final decisions. We do not know how this new group of kids will fair at the middle school magnets next year. They are presented with a great opportunities and let's hope they take full advantage of it. Similarly, parents of kids, especially those who have already proven their merits having been successful in the HGCs, should move on and try their best to work with the county and the schools to ensure that the local system have something put in place for these hardworking kids. I know it sucks but sometimes we can do all the right things in life but just don't get the prize. There is really no need to discredit the children who got in this year. Help yourselves and your kids move on, and work with what you have at this point to make proper changes. Bright kids who work hard will not be deterred by a small obstacle.

Thanks - great perspective!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The highest performing cohort on the magnet entrance exam from Cold Spring has been making the highest performing cohort in TPMA and Blair. This highest-performing cohort on one test also excels in MAP-M and MAP-R, PARCC, MSA for the past twenty and thirty years.
This cohort will be the scientists who find a cure for cancer and discover the reusable fuel to save the earth, the engineers who build new computers and smartphones. Some of the students from this cohort will your doctors, your lawyers, or your financial advisor.
They may become teachers or politicians.
Most of the students in this cohort are from middle-class families with taxpaying, working parents.
It is not fair for MCPS to deny their chance to join the MS magnets, just because of their zip code.

OK...I am a Cold Spring parent, but this post made me laugh out loud. It is a bit melodramatic. I truly think something else was at play in this selection process. MCPS did cast a larger net and I think it is fantastic. Having said that, I do question the selection process when only 2 kids out of this entire cohort were offered admission. I do not know if these are kids who will one day find the cure to cancer or are future politicians or whatever else, but I do know they scored incredibly high on MAP tests, PARCC and whatever other they had to take as part of the magnet testing. I am sure there are a few kids who prep, but I also know there are plenty of them who did not. It is really terrible how some people cast such negative lights on these children. I, for one, did not even know who Dr. Li was until this board kept bring his/her name up. The kids at Cold Spring ES are truly bright, motivated, curious and incredibly hard-working. When you have a combination of smartness and eagerness (and I do not imply this for only at Cold Spring, but at other schools as well), these kids deserve an opportunity to be engaged with the proper curriculum. Given that MCPS has decided to change the selection process, I also think they should also be prepare with something for these kids as they return to their home middle schools. To not have a plan in place seems most irresponsible. The fifth graders at Cold Spring are learning material that I was not taught until I had reached 7th/8th grade. It would be ashamed to have them repeat for the next 2 years. That is not thriving and is not in the true interest of the students.

My kid does not wish to have the long bus ride to Takoma. I can't imagine any kid would prefer this. I do think that sometimes parents feel that they have very little choice because MCPS turns a blind eye to what these 99%-ers need, thus the overwhelming and hyperbolic emotions from some parents.

Thank you for this post

+1, you've really put things back in perspective. I think the melodramatic poster is doing a disservice to her cause. The real issue is that there are too many qualified students for magnet slots and there is no support for students returning to the home school. We need to remember everyone here is fighting for their own DC's education and not that shouldn't imply fighting against someone else's opportunity.

[Anonymous]

The bigger issue here is that MCPS has roughly 12k per grade, and 200 slots for the MS magnet doesn't cut it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The bigger issue here is that MCPS has roughly 12k per grade, and 200 slots for the MS magnet doesn't cut it.

They would have to triple the current capacity just to cover 5% which isn't unreasonable at all.

[Anonymous]

Can someone who is not Math challenged like me explain the 99th percentile references.
According to this WA state school website, the SAS scores for the 99th percentile range between 135 and 160. That is a large range and if you are rejecting a kid from Cold Spring with a score of 150 to accept a kid from another ES with a score of 137, chances are these kids are an entire standard deviation from each other in terms of aptitude/ability (not sure what the correct word is). On another website they said that for SAS scores the mean is 100 and the standard deviation is 16 points so in the example I just gave there would be a big difference between these two kids. There is no doubt that both students need much more than an honors class in a typical MCPS MS would offer but the higher scorer would need the enrichment and acceleration more than the lower scorer surely.

https://www.nsd.org/Page/28102

[Anonymous]

Previously, the median for accepted students was at 75% of the full test score. For example, if the full score for math was 60, the median score for the accepted students was at 40 to 47. These scores were printed on the rejection letter from MCPS. My DC received two althought her score were at the median of accepted students. She was not enrolled because the accepted students from her ES and MS have scores aboved the publiched median.
Last year, the HS magnet test became much easier. The median for the accepted students were 55/60 in one of the catagory.
When MCPS waters down the test, instead of a normal distribution curve (bell curve), the curve will be like a plateau. Now, AEI can admitt anyone they want. There is nor difference between 99% and 93% or 90%. The kids are equally smart.
I would like to see if MCPS is willing to publish the accepted students' median MAP-w and MAP-r scores, at least these tests are open ended, and no one prepares for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can someone who is not Math challenged like me explain the 99th percentile references.
According to this WA state school website, the SAS scores for the 99th percentile range between 135 and 160. That is a large range and if you are rejecting a kid from Cold Spring with a score of 150 to accept a kid from another ES with a score of 137, chances are these kids are an entire standard deviation from each other in terms of aptitude/ability (not sure what the correct word is). On another website they said that for SAS scores the mean is 100 and the standard deviation is 16 points so in the example I just gave there would be a big difference between these two kids. There is no doubt that both students need much more than an honors class in a typical MCPS MS would offer but the higher scorer would need the enrichment and acceleration more than the lower scorer surely.

https://www.nsd.org/Page/28102

We know the median was 99th percentile, we don't know the raw score that corresponds to. We don't know if the median was 99.0 or 99.9.

Yes, there is a difference, but kind of hard to argue that a 99th percentile student isn't capable of magnet work. Maybe the selection committee wasn't given raw scores, either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can someone who is not Math challenged like me explain the 99th percentile references.
According to this WA state school website, the SAS scores for the 99th percentile range between 135 and 160. That is a large range and if you are rejecting a kid from Cold Spring with a score of 150 to accept a kid from another ES with a score of 137, chances are these kids are an entire standard deviation from each other in terms of aptitude/ability (not sure what the correct word is). On another website they said that for SAS scores the mean is 100 and the standard deviation is 16 points so in the example I just gave there would be a big difference between these two kids. There is no doubt that both students need much more than an honors class in a typical MCPS MS would offer but the higher scorer would need the enrichment and acceleration more than the lower scorer surely.

https://www.nsd.org/Page/28102

We know the median was 99th percentile, we don't know the raw score that corresponds to. We don't know if the median was 99.0 or 99.9.

Yes, there is a difference, but kind of hard to argue that a 99th percentile student isn't capable of magnet work. Maybe the selection committee wasn't given raw scores, either.

Exactly. Close your computer and step away.
This wasn't some prize for the 200 kids with the highest IQs in the land.
Test results were ONE factor in selection.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Previously, the median for accepted students was at 75% of the full test score. For example, if the full score for math was 60, the median score for the accepted students was at 40 to 47. These scores were printed on the rejection letter from MCPS. My DC received two althought her score were at the median of accepted students. She was not enrolled because the accepted students from her ES and MS have scores aboved the publiched median.
Last year, the HS magnet test became much easier. The median for the accepted students were 55/60 in one of the catagory.
When MCPS waters down the test, instead of a normal distribution curve (bell curve), the curve will be like a plateau. Now, AEI can admitt anyone they want. There is nor difference between 99% and 93% or 90%. The kids are equally smart.
I would like to see if MCPS is willing to publish the accepted students' median MAP-w and MAP-r scores, at least these tests are open ended, and no one prepares for them.

Except the test was COGAT, which isn't a test from MCPS at all; it's a national standardized test.

[Anonymous]

I am not sure if this information was sent to all the families who applied to the MS magnets but just in case this two page FAQs from MCPS describes their selection process this year and also outlines the appeals process. The deadline to appeal is February 23rd

http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/curriculum/specialprograms/middle/Frequently%20Asked%20Questions%20Eastern%20and%20Takoma%20Park%20Magnet%20ProgramsFINAL.pdf

[Anonymous]

It looks like cold spring principal already confirmed the peer group consideration. Why do some people still try to downplay these kids’ achievements? Will there be kids with even superior scores? Likely. Someone disclosed median (97/99/97/99) of admitted. It already told you that at least half got scores not as good as 99ers. We are all entitled to our own opinions. But let us form opinions consistent with the info we obtained.