Midwife charged in DC? Karen Carr, CPM...

[Anonymous]

Re: informed consent - I think the PP is correct that a major issue here is that patients should generally have an expectation that they be informed of risks and benefits prior to agreeing to care and it sounds as if the mom was saying she didn't feel she got that.

That said, I have had a homebirth with Karen and a hospital birth with another midwife, but I was also in the care of an OB for half of one of my pregnancies and in the care of a birth center for half if the other one (although not Birthcare) and I find it really really hard to believe that neither the Birthcare midwives, nor the OB the parents consulted, nor Karen described to the mom the risks involved.

I can see them all telling here there were risks in what she wanted to do, and I can also see (particularly Karen) talking her through the fact that many moms vaginally breach birth. But I seriously have a hard time believing that no one explained the risks, especially since she was actually risked out of Birthcare. What did they tell her when they risked her out?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I used Karen for a homebirth and was at risk for post partum hemorrhage due to uterine fibroids. I was definitely informed about this risk by Karen as well as counseled on the treatments she would have available at the birth and we had a plan for hospital transfer, if necessary. I didn't hemorrhage so we didn't have to go there, but the risks were discussed.

All the people who think midwifery is all "kumbaya and candles" may not realize that midwives and clients have serious conversations about risks, treatments, plans, etc.

Thank you for sharing. I am the PP who asked for clients of Karen and BirthCare to speak to what is discussed (benefits/risks)

[Anonymous]

Why hasn't anyone identified the birth assistant by name?

[Anonymous]

To add to my previous post, when I was pregnant and under Karen's care, some of my appointments would consist of an hour of just talking about all my concerns and questions. She always made herself more than available for discussions. Maybe the mom didn't get that since she transferred to Karen so late in her pregnancy?

[Anonymous]

The mom was saying she didn't get enough information from the birth assistant or from Birthcare. But she hasn't said anything publicly yet about Karen Carr. We don't know yet if Karen Carr advised her of the possible risks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why hasn't anyone identified the birth assistant by name?

Because everyone is waiting for someone else to do it. People know who the birth assistant is.

In two previous posts, the instructions for finding out who the birth assistant was were pretty clearly listed.

If people want to find out who it is, they can. And people are free to post it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why hasn't anyone identified the birth assistant by name?

Why should they? Has she been charged with any crime?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm finding it hard to support Karen but I am wondering what everyone feels the responsibility of the parents is? I have read every single thread here and have been truly impressed with the calm "debate" (which is hard to come by on this board sometimes). I am pro homebirth if there are no high rosk factors and if mom is healthy and active. I think it is careless for a midwife to take any client because they can. But I also have to say that if I had received the advice of two care providers (BirthCare and Tchabo, assuming this did happen) and their advice was the same, I would probably have followed it so I could have a safe baby (keeping in mind this mom's age). No one knows what mom's mental state was when it came to hospitals, no one knows if they said to Karen "if you don't show up, we will still attempt a home birth" (and if this was the case, would a care provider be obligated or at least persuaded into attending?)

I am just really interested in where the percentage of fault lies with the parents vs. the midwife? or the birth assistant for that matter...

IMO, from what I read, I truly believe that most of the blame lies with the mother and she was choosing a "birth experience" over that of her actual baby.

43, first baby - I couldn't even image doing anything that would be slightly risky.

I have read several accounts of home births that went wrong and the common theme seems to be that the mothers, even when every instinct is telling them something is wrong, do not pick up the phone and dial 911 and ask for help immediately and it boggles my mind as to why not. I have been in a crisis medical situation before and my absolute first and pretty much only coherent thought was - call 911.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The mom was saying she didn't get enough information from the birth assistant or from Birthcare. But she hasn't said anything publicly yet about Karen Carr. We don't know yet if Karen Carr advised her of the possible risks.

Valid point - thanks.

And I also want to say that I want to be very careful about blaming the mom. I don't know that Karen was to blame or anyone else forthat matter. But as mothers, I think we can all appreciate that she likely just wanted the absolute best for her child and for herself and made the decisions she made based on love and what she thought she understood as the best course of action. I think about her and her family constantly as I read all this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Re: informed consent - I think the PP is correct that a major issue here is that patients should generally have an expectation that they be informed of risks and benefits prior to agreeing to care and it sounds as if the mom was saying she didn't feel she got that.

That said, I have had a homebirth with Karen and a hospital birth with another midwife, but I was also in the care of an OB for half of one of my pregnancies and in the care of a birth center for half if the other one (although not Birthcare) and I find it really really hard to believe that neither the Birthcare midwives, nor the OB the parents consulted, nor Karen described to the mom the risks involved.

I can see them all telling here there were risks in what she wanted to do, and I can also see (particularly Karen) talking her through the fact that many moms vaginally breach birth. But I seriously have a hard time believing that no one explained the risks, especially since she was actually risked out of Birthcare. What did they tell her when they risked her out?

This. You don't just get told "sorry you risked out..off you go". There has to be something that is said so mom fully understands why, how, what happens next, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm finding it hard to support Karen but I am wondering what everyone feels the responsibility of the parents is? I have read every single thread here and have been truly impressed with the calm "debate" (which is hard to come by on this board sometimes). I am pro homebirth if there are no high rosk factors and if mom is healthy and active. I think it is careless for a midwife to take any client because they can. But I also have to say that if I had received the advice of two care providers (BirthCare and Tchabo, assuming this did happen) and their advice was the same, I would probably have followed it so I could have a safe baby (keeping in mind this mom's age). No one knows what mom's mental state was when it came to hospitals, no one knows if they said to Karen "if you don't show up, we will still attempt a home birth" (and if this was the case, would a care provider be obligated or at least persuaded into attending?)

I am just really interested in where the percentage of fault lies with the parents vs. the midwife? or the birth assistant for that matter...

IMO, from what I read, I truly believe that most of the blame lies with the mother and she was choosing a "birth experience" over that of her actual baby.


This is so amazingly insulting. I have had two babies and I can tell you that I was in no mind to be thinking about whether or not I needed to call 911 at any point in my labor. I was completely absorbed in getting the baby out. To completely put this on the mother is disgusting to me.
43, first baby - I couldn't even image doing anything that would be slightly risky.

I have read several accounts of home births that went wrong and the common theme seems to be that the mothers, even when every instinct is telling them something is wrong, do not pick up the phone and dial 911 and ask for help immediately and it boggles my mind as to why not. I have been in a crisis medical situation before and my absolute first and pretty much only coherent thought was - call 911.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The mom was saying she didn't get enough information from the birth assistant or from Birthcare. But she hasn't said anything publicly yet about Karen Carr. We don't know yet if Karen Carr advised her of the possible risks.

Huh, the way I read it she was referring to both the birth assistant and "the midwife" which are all assuming is Karen.

[Anonymous]

This is so amazingly insulting. I have had two babies and I can tell you that I was in no mind to be thinking about whether or not I needed to call 911 at any point in my labor. I was completely absorbed in getting the baby out. To completely put this on the mother is disgusting to me.
43, first baby - I couldn't even image doing anything that would be slightly risky.

[Anonymous]

Obviously I'm having difficulty using the quote function. I apologize.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why hasn't anyone identified the birth assistant by name?

Because everyone is waiting for someone else to do it. People know who the birth assistant is.

In two previous posts, the instructions for finding out who the birth assistant was were pretty clearly listed.

If people want to find out who it is, they can. And people are free to post it.

Why should they though? As far as I know neither the birth assistant and the doula have been charged with anything. They are entitled to their privacy.