TJ Discrimination Case

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:exactly what Curie did, through students violating their pledge not to share test materials and supplying Curie with examples to use in their $5,000 signature TJ prep course.

You don't know that this is exactly what Curie did.

It sure sounds like people who paid them saw (purchased) the test questions.

It is not known that Curie debriefed students after the tests to tell them what was on it. This is a guess that is being stated as fact.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol

There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...

It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.

Actually, the new system is easier to game.

Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.

Where did you buy your answers?

The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL

Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.

The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.

Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.

+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.

No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.

If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.

Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.

It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.

It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.

How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?

I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.

That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.

This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.

How do you know it's true? It could be Curie just has another source entirely.

The only way that Curie was able to have access to the questions was if someone who had seen the exam gave them the questions. The only group of people who would have any reasonable motive to do so are former students, perhaps as a gesture of appreciation, perhaps to help siblings or others within the community ... who knows. But there's no other group that would have a motive to give Curie the questions.

So this is not known to be true as people are stating. It is just being treated as the most likely case. It could be they have other sources.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol

There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...

It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.

Actually, the new system is easier to game.

Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.

Where did you buy your answers?

The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL

Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.

The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.

Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.

+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.

No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.

If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.

Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.

It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.

It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.

How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?

I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.

That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.

This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.

Makes them smart!

Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.

Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?

The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.

Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.

So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol

There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...

It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.

Actually, the new system is easier to game.

Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.

Where did you buy your answers?

The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL

Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.

The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.

Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.

+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.

No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.

If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.

Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.

It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.

It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.

How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?

I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.

That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.

This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.

Makes them smart!

Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.

Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?

The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.

Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.

So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?

Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol

There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...

It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.

Actually, the new system is easier to game.

Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.

Where did you buy your answers?

The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL

Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.

The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.

Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.

+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.

No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.

If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.

Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.

It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.

It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.

How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?

I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.

That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.

This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.

Makes them smart!

Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.

Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?

The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.

Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.

So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?

Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?

I suspect it's mostly about feeding their imagined grievances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol

There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...

It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.

Actually, the new system is easier to game.

Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.

Where did you buy your answers?

The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL

Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.

The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.

Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.

+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.

No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.

If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.

Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.

It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.

It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.

How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?

I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.

That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.

This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.

How do you know it's true? It could be Curie just has another source entirely.

The only way that Curie was able to have access to the questions was if someone who had seen the exam gave them the questions. The only group of people who would have any reasonable motive to do so are former students, perhaps as a gesture of appreciation, perhaps to help siblings or others within the community ... who knows. But there's no other group that would have a motive to give Curie the questions.

So this is not known to be true as people are stating. It is just being treated as the most likely case. It could be they have other sources.

I mean, former Curie students have said this is what happened, you're welcome to choose not to believe them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol

There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...

It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.

Actually, the new system is easier to game.

Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.

Where did you buy your answers?

The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL

Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.

The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.

Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.

+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.

No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.

If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.

Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.

It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.

It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.

How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?

I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.

That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.

This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.

How do you know it's true? It could be Curie just has another source entirely.

The only way that Curie was able to have access to the questions was if someone who had seen the exam gave them the questions. The only group of people who would have any reasonable motive to do so are former students, perhaps as a gesture of appreciation, perhaps to help siblings or others within the community ... who knows. But there's no other group that would have a motive to give Curie the questions.

So this is not known to be true as people are stating. It is just being treated as the most likely case. It could be they have other sources.

I mean, former Curie students have said this is what happened, you're welcome to choose not to believe them.

I want a name. I want a statement on the record. I want some evidence beyond people saying some unnamed kids allegedly said "this is what happened." You are welcome to believe them but you cannot name "them" either. It just sounds made up by people whose kids didn't get in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol

There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...

It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.

Actually, the new system is easier to game.

Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.

Where did you buy your answers?

The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL

Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.

The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.

Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.

+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.

No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.

If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.

Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.

It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.

It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.

How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?

I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.

That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.

This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.

Makes them smart!

Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.

Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?

The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.

Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.

So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?

Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?

Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol

There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...

It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.

Actually, the new system is easier to game.

Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.

Where did you buy your answers?

The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL

Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.

The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.

Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.

+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.

No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.

If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.

Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.

It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.

It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.

How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?

I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.

That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.

This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.

How do you know it's true? It could be Curie just has another source entirely.

The only way that Curie was able to have access to the questions was if someone who had seen the exam gave them the questions. The only group of people who would have any reasonable motive to do so are former students, perhaps as a gesture of appreciation, perhaps to help siblings or others within the community ... who knows. But there's no other group that would have a motive to give Curie the questions.

So this is not known to be true as people are stating. It is just being treated as the most likely case. It could be they have other sources.

I mean, former Curie students have said this is what happened, you're welcome to choose not to believe them.

I want a name. I want a statement on the record. I want some evidence beyond people saying some unnamed kids allegedly said "this is what happened." You are welcome to believe them but you cannot name "them" either. It just sounds made up by people whose kids didn't get in.

Okay, but you're not going to get that m. So believe what you choose to believe and disbelieve what you choose to disbelieve.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol

There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...

It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.

Actually, the new system is easier to game.

Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.

Where did you buy your answers?

The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL

Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.

The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.

Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.

+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.

No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.

If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.

Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.

It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.

It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.

How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?

I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.

That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.

This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.

Makes them smart!

Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.

Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?

The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.

Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.

So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?

Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?

Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.

The cheating issue was one issue. Another is declining numbers of applicants which shows there's a problem somewhere. It's a real issue that you can't just decide didn't happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol

There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...

It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.

Actually, the new system is easier to game.

Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.

Where did you buy your answers?

The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL

Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.

The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.

Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.

+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.

No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.

If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.

Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.

It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.

It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.

How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?

I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.

That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.

This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.

Makes them smart!

Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.

Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?

The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.

Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.

So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?

Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?

Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.

I wouldn't categorize kids cheating as a competitive process. It's been established. People who paid money got to see questions that were on this test that was used to filter applicants. It was enough of a problem that the county had to change the admission criteria.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol

There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...

It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.

Actually, the new system is easier to game.

Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.

Where did you buy your answers?

The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL

Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.

The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.

Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.

+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.

No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.

If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.

Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.

It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.

It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.

How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?

I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.

That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.

This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.

Makes them smart!

Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.

Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?

The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.

Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.

So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?

Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?

Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.

I wouldn't categorize kids cheating as a competitive process. It's been established. People who paid money got to see questions that were on this test that was used to filter applicants. It was enough of a problem that the county had to change the admission criteria.

I say it has been established. So it has been established. you shut up now and let us get on on with our discrimination.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol

There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...

It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.

Actually, the new system is easier to game.

Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.

Where did you buy your answers?

The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL

Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.

The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.

Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.

+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.

No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.

If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.

Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.

It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.

It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.

How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?

I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.

That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.

This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.

Makes them smart!

Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.

Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?

The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.

Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.

So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?

Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?

Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.

I wouldn't categorize kids cheating as a competitive process. It's been established. People who paid money got to see questions that were on this test that was used to filter applicants. It was enough of a problem that the county had to change the admission criteria.[/quote

The school board could have just dropped the test and left it at that. If their main concern was cheating then that would’ve been the easiest thing to do.

Instead, they went above and beyond. They knew dropping the test alone wouldn’t do much to achieve their main goal: changing the racial balance. The test was just one minor piece of that. The real game changer was the deemphasis on GPA. You previously needed almost a 4.0 to get in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol

There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...

It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.

Actually, the new system is easier to game.

Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.

Where did you buy your answers?

The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL

Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.

The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.

Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.

+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.

No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.

If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.

Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.

It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.

It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.

How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?

I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.

That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.

This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.

Makes them smart!

Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.

Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?

The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.

Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.

So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?

Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?

Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.

I wouldn't categorize kids cheating as a competitive process. It's been established. People who paid money got to see questions that were on this test that was used to filter applicants. It was enough of a problem that the county had to change the admission criteria.[/quote

The school board could have just dropped the test and left it at that. If their main concern was cheating then that would’ve been the easiest thing to do.

Instead, they went above and beyond. They knew dropping the test alone wouldn’t do much to achieve their main goal: changing the racial balance. The test was just one minor piece of that. The real game changer was the deemphasis on GPA. You previously needed almost a 4.0 to get in.

+1. It also wasn't just deemphasis on GPA. It was also the deemphasis on course rigor. Kids taking pre-calc Honors in 8th grade with As throughout are given no edge over the kid taking Algebra I Honors in 8th. Kids taking all AAP/Honors were given no edge over kids taking 3 honors and 1 gen ed class.

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Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the URM lady who works as an admin assistant at my wife's company with an IQ of like 90 now has a daughter at TJ so we know the new system is doing too well lol

There are some many things wrong with this post I can't even...

It helps them feel less bitter by talking made-up trash who cares. I know it's frustrating for a lot of parents since the new system is harder to game, and they need to vent somewhere.

Actually, the new system is easier to game.

Well, you used to be able to buy the test answers so it was easier for people with money.

Where did you buy your answers?

The prep centers were conducting exit interviews on students who had taken the test. This allowed them to compile question banks. Many of these questions would show up in subsequent years. It wasn't really a big secret. Everyone knew it was going on. How do you think one prep center got 30% of those admitted in one year? Do you think it was talent? LOLOL

Everyone knows this was going on. It's why the county had to change the selection criteria. I'm not sure why these posters want to keep it secret even now since the cats out of the bag.

The cheating was so out of control that they had to scrap the whole selection process and come up with what we have now.

Amazing that they had evidence of out of control cheating, but didn't use that in the lawsuit to justify their admissions changes. Seems like it would be a slam dunk win to show that the changes needed to happen due to rampant cheating.

+1 Cheating would have been a good defense to raise if it really happened.

No, FCPS neither wanted to, nor could prove it. It would be attacking students, when they found a better solution by changing the admissions process.

If they couldn't prove it, that means there's no actual evidence. Thanks for admitting that the "cheating scandal" is just hearsay and a conspiracy theory.

Exactly. People went from some kids saying they saw the questions, to Curie was buying the test, or was debriefing the students about what questions were on it to make a question bank for next year.
Maybe it's true, or maybe they got their hand on some sample questions. but it's just guessing.

It is FALSE that Curie bought the test or that their students had access to all of the exam questions prior to sitting for the exam.

It is TRUE that Curie students reported that, when they sat for the Quant-Q, they realized they’d seen SOME of the exact questions before and had been shown how to solve essentially all of them, step by step, at Curie.

How do you know these are FALSE or TRUE? Did the Curie students report they saw SOME or ALL?

I'd heard that the this was true. Not sure about the first statement though I have no idea where they got answers.

That was my point. It is known some students said they saw the answers at Curie. I think it was all the answers that they said, but people including me surmised that they were probably shown material similar to some of the questions. It is possible Curie has an in with the testing company and had all the answers beforehand. It is possible they were asking students about the questions and built up a test bank over the years, and the testing company was reusing questions. This guesswork as to what Curie did has evolved over two years into 'FACT' that Curie was debriefing students after the test, in violation of the agreement the students signed. More recently it became a FACT that Curie was telling kids to check the free meals box on the application. I don't think there is anyone who said they heard this at Curie. They then went on and said it was a FACT that Curie was advising them to fill out forms at their school when TJ started asking for verification of the free meals.

This is the part that is incontrovertibly true - although we don't know whether Curie ASKED for the materials or if they were simply provided. The rest of it I don't buy.

Makes them smart!

Makes them unethical. Probably not illegal or criminal, and therefore not worthy of an investigation, but certainly unethical given the amount of money they swindle out of the Indian community every year.

Capitalists engage in legal but unethical acts everyday - 24 hours a day! They sometimes say it is their fiduciary 'duty' to maximize profit and deliver the best possible service/product within the confines of the law. What the big deal?

The big deal is that they created imbalances in an admissions process that is supposed to be fair to all by delivering materials from a secured exam to constituents from a single ethnic group, and in so doing eliminated others from consideration in exchange for many thousands of dollars.

Financial resources are not supposed to be a de facto separator in the TJ admissions process, but under the old process (which yielded less than 1% FARMS over 30 years) it undeniably was.

So are we back to advocating for quotas? A lottery? Or just giving poor and URM bonus points? I've lost track of what the goal is? Level playing field, equal opportunity, equal outcome, or something else?

Explaining how the system got so screwed up isn't the same as asking for quotas. Do you do this simply to distract from a meaningful discussion of where things went wrong?

Not everyone believes a competitive process involving a standardized test is something going wrong. Some believe that what went wrong is nothing more than Asians being overwhelmingly successful and dominating admissions to the dislike of the school board and FCPS parents that decided to discriminate against Asians to socially engineer admissions.

I wouldn't categorize kids cheating as a competitive process. It's been established. People who paid money got to see questions that were on this test that was used to filter applicants. It was enough of a problem that the county had to change the admission criteria.[/quote

The school board could have just dropped the test and left it at that. If their main concern was cheating then that would’ve been the easiest thing to do.

Instead, they went above and beyond. They knew dropping the test alone wouldn’t do much to achieve their main goal: changing the racial balance. The test was just one minor piece of that. The real game changer was the deemphasis on GPA. You previously needed almost a 4.0 to get in.

+1. It also wasn't just deemphasis on GPA. It was also the deemphasis on course rigor. Kids taking pre-calc Honors in 8th grade with As throughout are given no edge over the kid taking Algebra I Honors in 8th. Kids taking all AAP/Honors were given no edge over kids taking 3 honors and 1 gen ed class.

Whatever it takes to pander for few votes. Discrimination against Asians is just a collateral damage.