Big 3 Nightmare

[Anonymous]

Sorry this thread seems to be devolving a bit. It’s actually very useful to families trying to understand changing landscape.
I went to a top Ivy. I didn’t work as hard in high school as the kids around DC do, though honestly they were more prepared than me (but public and private). It’s not a criticism of myself but it’s a fact. If parents feel their kids are working too hard - wherever they are - for what they are getting that’s worth understanding and really helpful so really grateful to parents who have been candid here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Doesn’t really matter due to advent of TO, the point of the APs is not the test score, it’s the GPA boost

NO.

It's not, and never has been, about the GPA boost. Colleges look at UNWEIGHTED GPA, not weighted GPA. This point has been repeated over and over again on this thread, and over and over on DCUM for at least since my oldest kid was applying five years ago, in the pre-TO era. How many more times before you get it?

For kids going to state schools and many SLACs, a 4-5 on an AP will let them skip and get credit for the intro, 100-level course, which could save them tuition or being bored for a semester. Ivies generally don't allow this and only use APs for credentialling.

The point of APs is credentialling for public school kids, where the quality of teaching may be more uneven and colleges want assurance that A in AP Statistics reflects a solid understanding of the material.

Result: A kid who scores 4 or 5 on an AP will send in their scores, TO or not.

Rather than just repeating this claim over and over, it would probably be more effective if you could get state flagships to make public statements explaining this. Because right now many of them say they give bumps for APs, or use your school’s weighted GPA. And no one is going to trust some anonymous comment on DCUM when the schools themselves are issuing official statements that say the opposite.

This is the heart of the problem these kids are facing, by the way: the privates are so optimized for getting hooked kids into T15s that when a kid strikes out in the T30 and decides to go for a state flagship, they wind up falling pretty far down the list.

Nobody is disputing that a 4 or 5 on an AP will give your kid a bump. The whole point is that colleges use it to make sure your kid's A in chem is for real--if your kid scores high on AP chem, it's clear they actually know the material, regardless of the quality of the class or the teacher. So that's a strawman right there.

So have your kid take the AP test even if their class wasn't labelled "AP." Although a tutor might help, I know kids who have done this, and done well, even without tutoring--like my kid. It was actually only a few week's work to figure out the material that wasn't covered in the class but could be on the AP test. Buy the relevant AP test prep book. Maybe it's too late for private school kids in this round, but going forward private school families might consider this.

You misunderstand me. Flagships are admitting by formula, or at least using a formula to narrow the pool. And that formula includes GPA. And for many schools, that GPA is either the weighted GPA as calculated by your high school (Georgia does it that way) or a recalculated GPA that weights for an official AP course, but not for a private school’s proprietary “advanced” course (the UC schools do it that way). Yes, the exam scores will help too—if the kid’s private school GPA is high enough to make it past that first cut.

If this is true (and I'm not 100% convinced), then you need to bring it up with your private school admin. They'd need to develop a credible way to weight some classes higher. That is, weigh the advanced math classes higher, don't just say "we're Sidwell."

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread seems to be primarily about GDS. Is Sidwell similar or STA/NCS?

Also, how does GDS address the needs of families who are seeking need based and merit aid? Do they allow those families to apply more broadly? DC is on considerable FA at another school and I would not be ok if DC had to limit options for matching with a school with adequate funding because of arbitrary school rules.

The NCS process is much more transparent and you have access to more data. That does not mean everyone at NCS is thrilled with their outcomes or with the process, but having been through it at both schools, we found the NCS approach less stressful. There are very few scenarios where having less information is better than having more information.

You may have more data at NCS but there are plenty of unhappy parents and students regarding college outcomes at NCS.
Yes, the education is outstanding but it is hard for students not to question why they worked so hard in HS to end up at a school like Bates or Wisconsin.
Not throwing shade at these schools. They are excellent but lots of kids who had a more chill HS experience also end up at the same place. How is the stress and crazy amount of work at top high schools like GDS and NCS worth it?

Bates parent here from a highly regarded DMV public school. Your mindset is 1990s. The median GPA for my kid's HS for Bates was 4.6w. Wisconsin is a similarly tough admit nowadays. None of the kids who go to these schools from the DC area had a "chill HS experience." Sorry that your kid has to slum with mine, we're very glad that we chose not to put our kids in overpriced mediocre privates only to end up in the exact same place as hardworking public school kids. Hope your kid didn't inherit your sense of entitlement.

Is your highly regarded public school in MoCo? because if it is, everyone is aware now of the unlimited retakes, the C + B = A as the final grade, and equity-driven GPA outcomes. I'm not saying your kid isn't deserving. I am saying that any moderately intelligent kid attending at MoCo HS will emerge with a 4.2w or better just by breathing.

This is not the case at GDS, NCS, STA and especially Sidwell, where two English teachers will not give As. To anyone.

I don’t understand why you are being rude. C +B = B in MCPS. It does not equal an A. I agree that there is grade inflation in MCPS but the kids work hard. If you have a problem with the English teachers at Sidwell, you should try to address it at your school rather than trying to feel better by insulting MCPS. Some of the MCPS teachers are also pretty stingy with As.

Unless you've had a kid at GDS, NCS, etc, you can't say they're comparable. They're not. My kid is on a sports team with all MCPS kids who take the hardest classes, very high GPAs, etc, and they don't work even half as hard as their counterparts in top privates. Not saying they're not smart, but their high school experience is absolutely chill in comparison.

My kid went to Jackson Reed and is now at an Ivy. She took 6 APs junior year and almost had a breakdown because there was so much work. She was up until 2am every night. She also had multiple intensive activities that required a lot of time. I’m not saying that JR is as good as GDS but there are some dynamite kids there and I’m sure MCPS is the same. JR still does rankings and my daughter was not even top 5. Every school, public and private, has some amazing kids. And they are all competing for the same schools

Yes, my kids came out of DCPS and many of their friends are at JR and some are very impressive. However, being up well past midnight is par for the course for the baseline (not AP) course in even 9th and 10th grade at some of these Big3 schools. Then 6 APs would be impossible. My kids' schools give 1.5 hours a night per AP course. That ends would be 9 hours of homework nightly if a kid took 6 APs.

I think what the frustration is, is that the Big private school kids are doing the equivalent of your daughter's JR course load every year for 4 years, getting a mixture of As and Bs (because many teachers simply don't give As) and then have no chance in hell of the Ivies or (as of 2023) any school in the top 40.

If I had to do this again, I may not have moved them and we would have stuck with JR. Their high school years have trained them to be phenomenal students but their options for college have really narrowed by our choice to move them from DCPS to private.

This isn't true, at least for 9th and 10th--I know kids at Sidwell and NCS. To the extent it's true for the rare kid out there, after factoring in ECs, it's child abuse. And you paid $50k a year for it.

Your point about APs isn't clear. APs are a form of credentialing, where the public school kids are proving they learned the material inside and out. Kids at a Big 3 don't need that credentialing, which is why we all know that college admissions counselors don't expect as many AP classes from private school kids as from public school kids. Equally, you need to stop complaining that public school kids who took 12 APs didn't learn anything.

My kids in MCPS had teachers that wouldn't give A's either. For example, in AP Calc II. And the colleges' regional reps understand this and have already factored it in. So no using continuing to complain about it.

Also, to the RMIB booster: few kids at RMIB are gunning for MIT, instead they want ivies, and anyway RMIB with the international baccalaureate isn't a fertile ground for MIT to recruit in.

Bottom line: colleges are no longer simply accepting kids with "solid grades" and "solid ECs" and top test scores because you could afford to prep them up the wazoo. Your kid needs top grades (unweighted GPA, and factoring in what the admissions reps know about your school's grading policies) and to knock the ECs out of the ballpark with state and preferably national recognition (like my kid did, coming from public).
- A dozen APs aren't a boost except as credentialing, as pointed out above (and the weighting for APs doesn't change anything because most top colleges take your kid's transcript apart and run it through their own weighting schemes).
- Legacy is no longer a hook at most colleges unless your legacy kid with "solid ECs" comes with a huge donation.
- Being able to pay for intensive test prep from junior year (we know one private school family who did this from HS freshman year) is no longer a boost in a test-optional environment.

How hypocritical if the goal is equity. Do you have any idea how expensive ECs are to participate in? How most kids have zero access to scientific research or whatever? Test scores are the most equitable thing out there. Poor kids are working at Burger King after school as their EC.

No, test scores reflect expensive and tailored tutoring (we've been there), and poor kids are stuck with the generic once-a-week-for-one-month tutoring their HS offers. But you know this....

Colleges love kids that worked after school instead of flying their horse around the country. If you put work in your application, combined with great grades and recs, it's like admissions gold. But you know this....

Lots of public schools have practically free athletic options, even crew at several MCPS schools. DC's ivy had lots of football and baseball recruits. Not everything has to be about fencing (we've also been there). But you know this....

Oh yeah colleges are falling all over themselves for the kids with good grades who went to rough schools and worked at BK after school.

This is a fantasy to make yourself feel better.

This is how the world works these days. You added the part about "rough schools" and those kids do face extra hurdles. But yes, U Penn will take a Montgomery Blair kid who worked 4-6 hrs/day to support their family and save for college over your pampered kid with "solid ECs" in a heartbeat.

No they won’t, because that Montgomery Blair kid will not have the grades/classes to even get a second look. The myth that poor/first-gen kids waltz into top colleges because of URM preferences is just that- a myth. The very few extraordinary kids who work substantial PT jobs and take APs and get great grades? Sure. But it is extremely hard to do that. “Poor” kids are not just like your kid except poor.

Stop using Montgomery Blair as an example...their magnet kids do exceptionally well getting accepted into top schools. There is a site called Polarislist that tracks college acceptances to Harvard, Princeton and MIT (don't know why they only track those three). From 2018 - 2020, Blair had 25 kids accepted to these schools...Sidwell 9...STA 13...NCS 12.

Some of the Blair acceptances were from the CAP program, too. But yes, the magnet is awesome.

Not all the admits to these schools from Blair were Cap/Magnet. It is a great school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Who-ever this offended poster is, they've been posting on this thread from 3pm to now almost 1am. It has to be a kid.

NP here. I admit I have not read all the posts. However, I do have kids at a well regarded public and we have many Ivy and T30 admits every year. I do think there are fewer liberal arts and more UVA/VT/W&M kids who could have gone to SLACs. I have a child entering high school. We weighed heavily between public and private and decided to just stick with public. My kid will absolutely be applying to SLACs.

I have two other kids I plan to send to private in the next year so I will have kids in both public and private. The Columbia parent doesn’t sound like a kid to me.

Before people start accusing me of being a troll, I’m jet lagged in another country. My whole family is passed out and I’m in the hotel room awake.

[Anonymous]

PP yours is a regular VA public school I assume?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sorry this thread seems to be devolving a bit. It’s actually very useful to families trying to understand changing landscape.
I went to a top Ivy. I didn’t work as hard in high school as the kids around DC do, though honestly they were more prepared than me (but public and private). It’s not a criticism of myself but it’s a fact. If parents feel their kids are working too hard - wherever they are - for what they are getting that’s worth understanding and really helpful so really grateful to parents who have been candid here.

Nobody who went to an Ivy uses the term “top Ivy”. It’s ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

My bad pp - I learned that term from dcum. I graduated from a school in Cambridge if that’s more helpful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Long story short:

A few (not all!) private school parents chose Big 3s for the bragging rights and/or because they thought Larlo would be a shoe-in to, nay almost entitled to, a top college. They didn't count on Larlo's classmates outcompeting him.

These parents certainly don't want to take responsibility for their own decisions. So they come out guns blazing against public school kids. It's not a good look.

You are the same, identifiable public school parent who likes to troll the privates. You always call our kids "Larlo". That is not a good look for YOU. It's a fact there is grade deflation, particularly in the top privates, and it is backfiring on our kids in the new era of the common app and grade deflation.

The fact that you take pleasure in this says something disturbing about you PP. We are living with the results of our decision to send our kids to private- good or bad, so why the nastiness and anger towards private school parents and kids? I don't wish public school families ill or denigrate them. Public school has a different set of pros and cons and challenges. Maybe time for some self-reflection PP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My bad pp - I learned that term from dcum. I graduated from a school in Cambridge if that’s more helpful.

Which Cambridge? The original or the copy?

[Anonymous]

cmon - have no dog in this fight but sooo obvious in my wealthy DCUM enclave that a large majority of parents send their kids to privates because they feel it puts them on a path for a T15. When this doesn’t materialize and they are applying to - horror upon horror - Clemson, U Delaware, Gettysburg - they are almost embarrassed at the cocktail parties or water cooler. Larlo going to a 50th ranked national university or LAC wasn’t part of the plan and doesn’t impress anyone, and $200k+ of high school tuition feels like it may have been a bit much. They can’t reconcile how their kid is going to Skidmore while the local public is sending kids to Vandy TO. Then the defensiveness, complaining, and finger pointing starts - grade deflation, URMs, “I’m just happy they are getting a better education than everyone else”, etc etc

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:cmon - have no dog in this fight but sooo obvious in my wealthy DCUM enclave that a large majority of parents send their kids to privates because they feel it puts them on a path for a T15. When this doesn’t materialize and they are applying to - horror upon horror - Clemson, U Delaware, Gettysburg - they are almost embarrassed at the cocktail parties or water cooler. Larlo going to a 50th ranked national university or LAC wasn’t part of the plan and doesn’t impress anyone, and $200k+ of high school tuition feels like it may have been a bit much. They can’t reconcile how their kid is going to Skidmore while the local public is sending kids to Vandy TO. Then the defensiveness, complaining, and finger pointing starts - grade deflation, URMs, “I’m just happy they are getting a better education than everyone else”, etc etc

I honestly didn’t think much about where my kids would end going to college when I enrolled them in private. I was impressed with how well students were prepared when they got to college.
Now that I have a kid in in high school, matriculation has become more relevant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My bad pp - I learned that term from dcum. I graduated from a school in Cambridge if that’s more helpful.

Which Cambridge? The original or the copy?

Cambridge, Md

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sorry this thread seems to be devolving a bit. It’s actually very useful to families trying to understand changing landscape.
I went to a top Ivy. I didn’t work as hard in high school as the kids around DC do, though honestly they were more prepared than me (but public and private). It’s not a criticism of myself but it’s a fact. If parents feel their kids are working too hard - wherever they are - for what they are getting that’s worth understanding and really helpful so really grateful to parents who have been candid here.

Nobody who went to an Ivy uses the term “top Ivy”. It’s ridiculous.

Like it or not, it's used here to forestall the "oh, you went to Cornell" jerks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:cmon - have no dog in this fight but sooo obvious in my wealthy DCUM enclave that a large majority of parents send their kids to privates because they feel it puts them on a path for a T15. When this doesn’t materialize and they are applying to - horror upon horror - Clemson, U Delaware, Gettysburg - they are almost embarrassed at the cocktail parties or water cooler. Larlo going to a 50th ranked national university or LAC wasn’t part of the plan and doesn’t impress anyone, and $200k+ of high school tuition feels like it may have been a bit much. They can’t reconcile how their kid is going to Skidmore while the local public is sending kids to Vandy TO. Then the defensiveness, complaining, and finger pointing starts - grade deflation, URMs, “I’m just happy they are getting a better education than everyone else”, etc etc

This. The bashing of public school students here is pathetic. I feel sorry for the private school kids who were rejected, but their real problem was the other kids in their private school who simply had better grades, ECs, athletic ability, or rich and famous parents. The private school parents who want to make it about somebody else, anybody else, by blaming public school kids are awful examples to their own kids.

[Anonymous]

Meanwhile across the pond.....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/05/04/oxbridge-plans-reduce-number-private-school-students/

I recall that some of these independent school kids no longer being a shoo in to Oxbridge were applying to the US and Canada.