Federal judge rules that admissions changes at nation’s top public school discriminate against Asian

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If white parents don’t care about TJ, why did we need to increase the number of white students at TJ? Because that’s exactly what we did

There could be more white students at TJ if more white students were applying. But they aren’t. Only 14% of white 8th graders even applied.

You think the white parents wanted to reduce the # of seats from well-represented middle schools and private schools? How would that benefit them?

The Merit Lottery originally proposed in September 2020 that limits the number of admitted students from schools grouped into Regional pathways, would have given the whites a plurality at TJ. That shows the intent.

If white families were so interested in TJ then more would be applying. Sorry that doesn't fit with your false narrative.

What happened was that people looked at the demographics with the old TJ admissions process and saw how few black/hispanic/ED kids were admitted.

For the class of 2021...
Out of the 179 who black kids applied, only 9 got it.
Out of the 220 hispanic kids, only 8 got it.
Out of the 289 ED kids, only 8 got it.

In the entire class of 490 students. Respectively, they were 1.8%, 1.6%, and 1.6% of the class. They make up 10%, 27%, and 27% of FCPS students.

https://www.fcps.edu/news/fcps-offers-admission-tjhsst-490-students


How can you look at those numbers and NOT think that is a problem?

Clearly there is a problem. But just because there is a problem, doesn't mean the problem is with the admission process itself. Are the admission standards racist by discriminating against blacks and hispanics even when two applicants are equally qualified? If not, then the problem isn't with the admission process. Why are so few blacks and hispanics admitted? How do their qualifications compare to other applicants?

Going back to the 2010 data provided by the PP and the corresponding 2011 admissions data (http://www.fcag.org/tjadmits2011.html)...

It looks like Hispanic admit rates seem on par with others in the same level math.

2011 admission results (class of 2015)
1487 hispanic kids in FCPS
369 were eligible to apply (25% of FCPS hispanic students)
(disclaimer - ignoring other counties)
222 applied (15% of FCPS hispanic students; 60% of eligible)
13 were admitted (1% of FCPS hispanic students; 6% admit rate)

looking deeper in the the courses/pipeline
admit rates for A1H=4%, GH=26%, G+=67%
look at # of hispanic kids in those classes (326,41,2) & apply rate (60%)
the # of admits should be ~15 kids

The number admitted (13) isn't that far off from number expected (15).

So some questions coming out of that do relate back to pipeline:
Why are only 25% of hispanic kids eligible?
Why are only 60% of eligible hispanic kids applying?

[Anonymous]

But for black students the # admitted was only 1/3rd of expected.

2011 admission results (class of 2015)
754 black kids in FCPS
244 were eligible to apply (32% of FCPS black students)
(ignoring other counties)
224 applied (30% of FCPS black students; 92% of eligible)
6 were admitted (1% of FCPS black students; 3% admit rate)

looking deeper in the the courses/pipeline
admit rates for A1H=4%, GH=26%, G+=67%
look at # of black kids in those classes (205,37,2) & apply rate (92%)
the # of admits should be ~18 kids

But there were only 6 admitted. 1/3rd compared to others in same course level.

So there still is the pipeline question - why are only 32% eligible?

BUT even when looking at eligible students & similar course levels, why is admit rate so low relative to other groups?

[Anonymous]

^ of course that isn't look at any other factors in the applications - just looking at admit rates by the different math levels.

So trying to look beyond just pipeline issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If white parents don’t care about TJ, why did we need to increase the number of white students at TJ? Because that’s exactly what we did

There could be more white students at TJ if more white students were applying. But they aren’t. Only 14% of white 8th graders even applied.

You think the white parents wanted to reduce the # of seats from well-represented middle schools and private schools? How would that benefit them?

The Merit Lottery originally proposed in September 2020 that limits the number of admitted students from schools grouped into Regional pathways, would have given the whites a plurality at TJ. That shows the intent.

If white families were so interested in TJ then more would be applying. Sorry that doesn't fit with your false narrative.

What happened was that people looked at the demographics with the old TJ admissions process and saw how few black/hispanic/ED kids were admitted.

For the class of 2021...
Out of the 179 who black kids applied, only 9 got it.
Out of the 220 hispanic kids, only 8 got it.
Out of the 289 ED kids, only 8 got it.

In the entire class of 490 students. Respectively, they were 1.8%, 1.6%, and 1.6% of the class. They make up 10%, 27%, and 27% of FCPS students.

https://www.fcps.edu/news/fcps-offers-admission-tjhsst-490-students


How can you look at those numbers and NOT think that is a problem?

Obviously there is a problem. Solution is not Asian bashing/demonizing - they are not the cause. It is very clearly a pipeline problem which can be solved by a collaborative approach - maybe even including the TJ students. Having them mentor middle school kids etc. Destroying the school standards and introducing criteria with an express intent to decrease Asians in not the solution. Root cause analysis, people. Not lazy, wrong solutions.

Lazy? You're under-estimating the degree of malicious intent of the liberal people. The very purpose of the TJ reform was to reduce the Asian population. They're NOT interested in the root causes, PERIOD!

I don't think that is true for most people who want TJ reform.

Most people saw the extremely low admit #s for Black, Hispanic, and ED students and realized that the process is broken.

Maybe this isn't the best process, but it's a step in the right direction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If white parents don’t care about TJ, why did we need to increase the number of white students at TJ? Because that’s exactly what we did

There could be more white students at TJ if more white students were applying. But they aren’t. Only 14% of white 8th graders even applied.

You think the white parents wanted to reduce the # of seats from well-represented middle schools and private schools? How would that benefit them?

The Merit Lottery originally proposed in September 2020 that limits the number of admitted students from schools grouped into Regional pathways, would have given the whites a plurality at TJ. That shows the intent.

If white families were so interested in TJ then more would be applying. Sorry that doesn't fit with your false narrative.

What happened was that people looked at the demographics with the old TJ admissions process and saw how few black/hispanic/ED kids were admitted.

For the class of 2021...
Out of the 179 who black kids applied, only 9 got it.
Out of the 220 hispanic kids, only 8 got it.
Out of the 289 ED kids, only 8 got it.

In the entire class of 490 students. Respectively, they were 1.8%, 1.6%, and 1.6% of the class. They make up 10%, 27%, and 27% of FCPS students.

https://www.fcps.edu/news/fcps-offers-admission-tjhsst-490-students


How can you look at those numbers and NOT think that is a problem?

Obviously there is a problem. Solution is not Asian bashing/demonizing - they are not the cause. It is very clearly a pipeline problem which can be solved by a collaborative approach - maybe even including the TJ students. Having them mentor middle school kids etc. Destroying the school standards and introducing criteria with an express intent to decrease Asians in not the solution. Root cause analysis, people. Not lazy, wrong solutions.

Lazy? You're under-estimating the degree of malicious intent of the liberal people. The very purpose of the TJ reform was to reduce the Asian population. They're NOT interested in the root causes, PERIOD!

Let's back up for a second.

The School Board is a mess and the communications around this process were horrible. So stipulated and agreed to. If you want to call them evil or racist or whatever, fine - there's plenty of evidence to suggest some level of malicious intent, though I disagree that the mechanics of the new process are inherently racist.

The advocates on the ground for TJ admissions reform do not care about the population of Asian students at the school, except inasmuch as we'd love to see more of them come from disadvantaged backgrounds. The lack of students from historically underrepresented communities is what we are trying to solve, NOT the disproportionately high percentage of Asian students.

However, it is a function of the reality on the ground that those numbers have to come from somewhere - and as such, the most likely outcome of increasing the representation of underserved communities in the school was going to be a decrease in the number of Asian students.

You of course have the right to advocate for your group as much as you feel is appropriate. But the reality is this - and I've said it here many times before:

The fact that it IMPACTS you doesn't mean it's ABOUT you. I understand the need to leverage every angle you can to try and advocate for yourselves, and the School Board and Brabrand gave you a huge window in which to do it because of their sloppiness.

But intellectually, if you can't wrap your head around the fact that desiring any increase in underrepresented communities does not indicate animus toward Asians, even though a decrease in Asian students is the most likely result, you can't be a part of any productive conversation in this area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If white parents don’t care about TJ, why did we need to increase the number of white students at TJ? Because that’s exactly what we did

There could be more white students at TJ if more white students were applying. But they aren’t. Only 14% of white 8th graders even applied.

You think the white parents wanted to reduce the # of seats from well-represented middle schools and private schools? How would that benefit them?

The Merit Lottery originally proposed in September 2020 that limits the number of admitted students from schools grouped into Regional pathways, would have given the whites a plurality at TJ. That shows the intent.

If white families were so interested in TJ then more would be applying. Sorry that doesn't fit with your false narrative.

What happened was that people looked at the demographics with the old TJ admissions process and saw how few black/hispanic/ED kids were admitted.

For the class of 2021...
Out of the 179 who black kids applied, only 9 got it.
Out of the 220 hispanic kids, only 8 got it.
Out of the 289 ED kids, only 8 got it.

In the entire class of 490 students. Respectively, they were 1.8%, 1.6%, and 1.6% of the class. They make up 10%, 27%, and 27% of FCPS students.

https://www.fcps.edu/news/fcps-offers-admission-tjhsst-490-students


How can you look at those numbers and NOT think that is a problem?

Obviously there is a problem. Solution is not Asian bashing/demonizing - they are not the cause. It is very clearly a pipeline problem which can be solved by a collaborative approach - maybe even including the TJ students. Having them mentor middle school kids etc. Destroying the school standards and introducing criteria with an express intent to decrease Asians in not the solution. Root cause analysis, people. Not lazy, wrong solutions.

Lazy? You're under-estimating the degree of malicious intent of the liberal people. The very purpose of the TJ reform was to reduce the Asian population. They're NOT interested in the root causes, PERIOD!

I don't think that is true for most people who want TJ reform.

Most people saw the extremely low admit #s for Black, Hispanic, and ED students and realized that the process is broken.

Maybe this isn't the best process, but it's a step in the right direction.

No, it's not. A racist decision is never in the right direction, unless you're living in 1800s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^ of course that isn't look at any other factors in the applications - just looking at admit rates by the different math levels.

So trying to look beyond just pipeline issues.

Math level is just one factor. Then there is the test and many don't apply because private school is an option for children of this caliber.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If white parents don’t care about TJ, why did we need to increase the number of white students at TJ? Because that’s exactly what we did

There could be more white students at TJ if more white students were applying. But they aren’t. Only 14% of white 8th graders even applied.

You think the white parents wanted to reduce the # of seats from well-represented middle schools and private schools? How would that benefit them?

The Merit Lottery originally proposed in September 2020 that limits the number of admitted students from schools grouped into Regional pathways, would have given the whites a plurality at TJ. That shows the intent.

If white families were so interested in TJ then more would be applying. Sorry that doesn't fit with your false narrative.

What happened was that people looked at the demographics with the old TJ admissions process and saw how few black/hispanic/ED kids were admitted.

For the class of 2021...
Out of the 179 who black kids applied, only 9 got it.
Out of the 220 hispanic kids, only 8 got it.
Out of the 289 ED kids, only 8 got it.

In the entire class of 490 students. Respectively, they were 1.8%, 1.6%, and 1.6% of the class. They make up 10%, 27%, and 27% of FCPS students.

https://www.fcps.edu/news/fcps-offers-admission-tjhsst-490-students


How can you look at those numbers and NOT think that is a problem?

Obviously there is a problem. Solution is not Asian bashing/demonizing - they are not the cause. It is very clearly a pipeline problem which can be solved by a collaborative approach - maybe even including the TJ students. Having them mentor middle school kids etc. Destroying the school standards and introducing criteria with an express intent to decrease Asians in not the solution. Root cause analysis, people. Not lazy, wrong solutions.

Lazy? You're under-estimating the degree of malicious intent of the liberal people. The very purpose of the TJ reform was to reduce the Asian population. They're NOT interested in the root causes, PERIOD!

I don't think that is true for most people who want TJ reform.

Most people saw the extremely low admit #s for Black, Hispanic, and ED students and realized that the process is broken.

Maybe this isn't the best process, but it's a step in the right direction.

That itself is your assumption without any evidence or grounding? Do you have any objective evidence those groups of students deserved more TJ admissions than it was? Just the outcome itself isn't the evidence because using your own reasoning, the previous TJ admissions policy just impacted those groups but not about them.

[Anonymous]

There is simply NO metric you can point to that suggests that this was about helping white kids. And to suggest there is indicates either willful or malevolent ignorance.

Looking at the 2010/11 data:

45% of white students in FCPS were eligible to apply
22% all white students in FCPS applied (only 49% of those eligible applied)
3% of all white students were admitted (12% admit rate)

56% of Asian students in FCPS were eligible to apply
55% all Asian students in FCPS applied (99% of eligible applied)
11% of all Asian students were admitted (20% admit rate)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If white parents don’t care about TJ, why did we need to increase the number of white students at TJ? Because that’s exactly what we did

There could be more white students at TJ if more white students were applying. But they aren’t. Only 14% of white 8th graders even applied.

You think the white parents wanted to reduce the # of seats from well-represented middle schools and private schools? How would that benefit them?

The Merit Lottery originally proposed in September 2020 that limits the number of admitted students from schools grouped into Regional pathways, would have given the whites a plurality at TJ. That shows the intent.

If white families were so interested in TJ then more would be applying. Sorry that doesn't fit with your false narrative.

What happened was that people looked at the demographics with the old TJ admissions process and saw how few black/hispanic/ED kids were admitted.

For the class of 2021...
Out of the 179 who black kids applied, only 9 got it.
Out of the 220 hispanic kids, only 8 got it.
Out of the 289 ED kids, only 8 got it.

In the entire class of 490 students. Respectively, they were 1.8%, 1.6%, and 1.6% of the class. They make up 10%, 27%, and 27% of FCPS students.

https://www.fcps.edu/news/fcps-offers-admission-tjhsst-490-students


How can you look at those numbers and NOT think that is a problem?

Obviously there is a problem. Solution is not Asian bashing/demonizing - they are not the cause. It is very clearly a pipeline problem which can be solved by a collaborative approach - maybe even including the TJ students. Having them mentor middle school kids etc. Destroying the school standards and introducing criteria with an express intent to decrease Asians in not the solution. Root cause analysis, people. Not lazy, wrong solutions.

Lazy? You're under-estimating the degree of malicious intent of the liberal people. The very purpose of the TJ reform was to reduce the Asian population. They're NOT interested in the root causes, PERIOD!

Let's back up for a second.

The School Board is a mess and the communications around this process were horrible. So stipulated and agreed to. If you want to call them evil or racist or whatever, fine - there's plenty of evidence to suggest some level of malicious intent, though I disagree that the mechanics of the new process are inherently racist.

The advocates on the ground for TJ admissions reform do not care about the population of Asian students at the school, except inasmuch as we'd love to see more of them come from disadvantaged backgrounds. The lack of students from historically underrepresented communities is what we are trying to solve, NOT the disproportionately high percentage of Asian students.

However, it is a function of the reality on the ground that those numbers have to come from somewhere - and as such, the most likely outcome of increasing the representation of underserved communities in the school was going to be a decrease in the number of Asian students.

You of course have the right to advocate for your group as much as you feel is appropriate. But the reality is this - and I've said it here many times before:

The fact that it IMPACTS you doesn't mean it's ABOUT you. I understand the need to leverage every angle you can to try and advocate for yourselves, and the School Board and Brabrand gave you a huge window in which to do it because of their sloppiness.

But intellectually, if you can't wrap your head around the fact that desiring any increase in underrepresented communities does not indicate animus toward Asians, even though a decrease in Asian students is the most likely result, you can't be a part of any productive conversation in this area.

Very well said.

Doesn't seem like the PP is open to rational discussion though.

[Anonymous]

Department of Justice should investigate for violations of civil rights and criminally charge appropriate individuals to rot in prison for decades.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If white parents don’t care about TJ, why did we need to increase the number of white students at TJ? Because that’s exactly what we did

There could be more white students at TJ if more white students were applying. But they aren’t. Only 14% of white 8th graders even applied.

You think the white parents wanted to reduce the # of seats from well-represented middle schools and private schools? How would that benefit them?

The Merit Lottery originally proposed in September 2020 that limits the number of admitted students from schools grouped into Regional pathways, would have given the whites a plurality at TJ. That shows the intent.

If white families were so interested in TJ then more would be applying. Sorry that doesn't fit with your false narrative.

What happened was that people looked at the demographics with the old TJ admissions process and saw how few black/hispanic/ED kids were admitted.

For the class of 2021...
Out of the 179 who black kids applied, only 9 got it.
Out of the 220 hispanic kids, only 8 got it.
Out of the 289 ED kids, only 8 got it.

In the entire class of 490 students. Respectively, they were 1.8%, 1.6%, and 1.6% of the class. They make up 10%, 27%, and 27% of FCPS students.

https://www.fcps.edu/news/fcps-offers-admission-tjhsst-490-students


How can you look at those numbers and NOT think that is a problem?

Clearly there is a problem. But just because there is a problem, doesn't mean the problem is with the admission process itself. Are the admission standards racist by discriminating against blacks and hispanics even when two applicants are equally qualified? If not, then the problem isn't with the admission process. Why are so few blacks and hispanics admitted? How do their qualifications compare to other applicants?

The argument that most pro-reform people have been making is that we've done a poor job historically of measuring who is more or less qualified to go to TJ, and perhaps more importantly whether or not there should be multiple avenues to be qualified to go to TJ.

By creating a pathway for the most qualified students from each middle school to attend (and perhaps 1.5% is too much! Maybe it should be 1%...) and by seeking qualified students from different educational backgrounds, you are by definition finding the students who have made the most of their unique circumstances. In my experience with TJ, those are the students most likely to get the most out of their experience - moreso than the 60th, 70th, or 80th most qualified student at a Carson or a Longfellow.

We do need to add more non-exam elements to the application process in order to paint a better picture of the student, but we have a strong starting point here to build off of. Students from the class of 2026 will actually have kids from underrepresented schools to look up to within their environment next year - assuming the current process remains in place at least for another year.

It is upon the proponents of reform people to demonstrate that existing admissions practices do a poor job of identifying qualified students, per the stated education goal of TJ. Making the most of unique circumstances is a meaningless standard. If we believe that some students are artificially held back due to lack of resources, the answer is to increase resources for the student, rather than pretending that this student is just as qualified as another student despite objectively lower academic performance.

Underrepresentation in and of itself is not a problem. To claim otherwise is to ignore the fact that people who share a common identity sometimes makes choices that are different from other groups who share a different common identity, and that these *different choices* lead to different outcomes and thus different access to future opportunities. You cannot eliminate underrepresentation unless you eliminate free choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Department of Justice should investigate for violations of civil rights and criminally charge appropriate individuals to rot in prison for decades.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If white parents don’t care about TJ, why did we need to increase the number of white students at TJ? Because that’s exactly what we did

There could be more white students at TJ if more white students were applying. But they aren’t. Only 14% of white 8th graders even applied.

You think the white parents wanted to reduce the # of seats from well-represented middle schools and private schools? How would that benefit them?

The Merit Lottery originally proposed in September 2020 that limits the number of admitted students from schools grouped into Regional pathways, would have given the whites a plurality at TJ. That shows the intent.

If white families were so interested in TJ then more would be applying. Sorry that doesn't fit with your false narrative.

What happened was that people looked at the demographics with the old TJ admissions process and saw how few black/hispanic/ED kids were admitted.

For the class of 2021...
Out of the 179 who black kids applied, only 9 got it.
Out of the 220 hispanic kids, only 8 got it.
Out of the 289 ED kids, only 8 got it.

In the entire class of 490 students. Respectively, they were 1.8%, 1.6%, and 1.6% of the class. They make up 10%, 27%, and 27% of FCPS students.

https://www.fcps.edu/news/fcps-offers-admission-tjhsst-490-students


How can you look at those numbers and NOT think that is a problem?

Clearly there is a problem. But just because there is a problem, doesn't mean the problem is with the admission process itself. Are the admission standards racist by discriminating against blacks and hispanics even when two applicants are equally qualified? If not, then the problem isn't with the admission process. Why are so few blacks and hispanics admitted? How do their qualifications compare to other applicants?

The argument that most pro-reform people have been making is that we've done a poor job historically of measuring who is more or less qualified to go to TJ, and perhaps more importantly whether or not there should be multiple avenues to be qualified to go to TJ.

By creating a pathway for the most qualified students from each middle school to attend (and perhaps 1.5% is too much! Maybe it should be 1%...) and by seeking qualified students from different educational backgrounds, you are by definition finding the students who have made the most of their unique circumstances. In my experience with TJ, those are the students most likely to get the most out of their experience - moreso than the 60th, 70th, or 80th most qualified student at a Carson or a Longfellow.

We do need to add more non-exam elements to the application process in order to paint a better picture of the student, but we have a strong starting point here to build off of. Students from the class of 2026 will actually have kids from underrepresented schools to look up to within their environment next year - assuming the current process remains in place at least for another year.

It is upon the proponents of reform people to demonstrate that existing admissions practices do a poor job of identifying qualified students, per the stated education goal of TJ. Making the most of unique circumstances is a meaningless standard. If we believe that some students are artificially held back due to lack of resources, the answer is to increase resources for the student, rather than pretending that this student is just as qualified as another student despite objectively lower academic performance.

Underrepresentation in and of itself is not a problem. To claim otherwise is to ignore the fact that people who share a common identity sometimes makes choices that are different from other groups who share a different common identity, and that these *different choices* lead to different outcomes and thus different access to future opportunities. You cannot eliminate underrepresentation unless you eliminate free choice.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But for black students the # admitted was only 1/3rd of expected.

2011 admission results (class of 2015)
754 black kids in FCPS
244 were eligible to apply (32% of FCPS black students)
(ignoring other counties)
224 applied (30% of FCPS black students; 92% of eligible)
6 were admitted (1% of FCPS black students; 3% admit rate)

looking deeper in the the courses/pipeline
admit rates for A1H=4%, GH=26%, G+=67%
look at # of black kids in those classes (205,37,2) & apply rate (92%)
the # of admits should be ~18 kids

But there were only 6 admitted. 1/3rd compared to others in same course level.

So there still is the pipeline question - why are only 32% eligible?

BUT even when looking at eligible students & similar course levels, why is admit rate so low relative to other groups?

It's simple math. The qualification distribution is likely a normal curve of some sort, and the selection of candidates from the upper/lower end of a normal curve will be drastically different depending on how the candidate groups are shifted relative to each other, much more so than the overall difference between the two populations.

If you imagine two cooks making hamburger patties by hand, one cook tends to be a little more generous than the other one although both cooks make patties that are close to 1/4 pound in weight on average, then if you select 10 heaviest patties, they are likely mostly going to be made by the cook that is a little more generous.