Enough is enough with the redshirting!

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Public schools aren’t retaining anyone because that costs $$$. I’ve only heard of retention being offered when a kid missed a lot of a grade due to something like a serious medical issue, or at the end of the Covid school years - 2019-20 or 2020-21 - if a kid didn’t progress during the closures. My neighbor had a young for grade 1st grader in 20-21 and FCPS did offer to let her repeat 1st in person.

But let this thread be a heads up to everyone: redshirting is common, perhaps even expected, in private schools, especially for the younger for grade kids. So plan accordingly.

+1, and I would say it’s increasingly common in public school among parents who read the data on developmentally appropriate settings for 4-5. So, assume if you send a four year old they’ll be youngest by a year+, and an early five year old by a year. None of this is secret, or unavailable information to you.

Since most public schools do an age cut off around September 1st, the number of kids attending K at age 4 is very small (and even people who complain about excessive redshirting don't complain about redshirting a kid who would be 4 during the "normal" cut off). In NY (which is the only place with a midyear cut off that results in a lot of 4 year olds being eligible for K) it's common for people to redshirt those kids and no one complains about it.

The only redshirting people complain about is when people start redshirting kids who would be well over 5 when starting K but they hold them back anyway. Yes, in some privates that's common place, but the school generally encourages it and everyone has a chance to do it -- they like having an older class of K students and often they will strongly encourage redshirting summer or late spring birthdays. Some schools even offer a transitional year for young K students before taking the regular K class, so you still wind up with a fairly age-homogenous class.

But in public that's not the case, and when some parents start deciding their April or May birthday kid needs another year, it can leave other parents stuck with the consequences of those actions without warning. No one is going to get mad that a parent redshirted so their kid could start K at 5, but when you see kids starting K at 6 and a half, it becomes an issue.

Please yell at me now and tell me I'm a "crazy anti-redshirter" for agreeing this specific issue is a problem.

As someone with a young for grade kid, I think it is absolutely insane to consider this a problem whatsoever, and really makes you sound like someone who has no experience with any real problems in life.

My kid with an August birthday who I sent on time (she started K at 5 but was among the youngest in her grade) was viciously bullied by a redshirted child in 1st grade. My kid was 6 years old for the entirety of 1st grade. The bullying child turned 8 in September and was signficantly bigger and taller. Redshirting played a major role in the bullying because while this one child was the leader, there were many older kids in the classroom due to redshirting and when the bully would attack/provoke my kid, she'd cry, and then all the older kids would round on her and call her a baby and tease her for being small and young (she is average height for her age).

I had no idea how prevalent redshirting was when I enrolled my kid in K. She was academically and socially ready for a K classroom full of 5 and 6 year old children. In fact she continues to be at the top of her grade academically and she is well liked by teachers for being a good listener who follows directions and is helpful and kind in the classroom (something that apparently the extra years of preschool or staying home did not help instill in these redshirted kids who are merely bigger and older, not more mature).

I absolutely resent that my child's classroom environment has been dominated by older children who I think should have spent their 5/6 year in K learning out to function in elementary school, but instead spent it elsewhere and arrived at elementary school with their own ideas about how school should work. I resent how common bullying and relational aggression are at the school because of these older-but-less-mature kids.

Call me a crazy anti-redshirted if you want. I think redshirting sucks. Kids should start school at the same age so that they learn the same skills and are generally at the same developmental level. Kids with developmental delays can/should be held back to accommodate their delays, but it shouldn't be at the parents' discretion.

We will be moving school districts before these older kids hit puberty in 3rd grade and we have to deal with that.

As a parent who doesn't care about redshirting one way or another (and has both middle-of-age-for grade and young-for-grade kids, none old-for-grade): the bullying isn't because your kid is small. Bullies will find literally anything to gang up on kids about. One of my kids was bulled for not watching Spongebob Squarepants in a late elementary grade. Does that make sense as a thing to mock a kid over? No. But my kid was a prickly and kind of hard-to-get-to-know kid, so of course they were a target. The actual thing to make fun of was incidental to the act of piling on.

And it's possible (probable?) this older kid is lashing out because:
- they do have delays and you have no idea and the delays are social
- they feel embarassed about your kid doing as well when they are so much older.

PP here. Of course bullying can happen for a whole variety of reasons.

But at my kid's specific school, in specific classrooms where there are a large percent of redshirted kids including one that was significantly older, the bullying was closely related to having a cohort of older, bigger, unsocialized kids. My DD was not the only child targeted, but all the children who were bullied were "on time" kids who were on the younger end of normal for the grade. All the bullies were the oldest kids in class.

Also, it's not just about the age difference. It's also that these redshirted kids were not socialized into elementary school when they were young enough for it help. They arrived at K too old and less malleable. In my child's 1st grade class, those older kids RAN the classroom. This year my kid is in 2nd and due to the bullying issues last year, my kid and others who were targeted are in a classroom without any of the much older kids. The classroom is significantly better, with less conflict and fewer behavioral issues.

I don't have any issue with moderate redshirting for kids with summer birthdays. I don't think you should be allowed to redshirt a kid with a birthday during the school year unless there is a clear reason why delaying kindergarten will help. And I actually think a lot of developmental delays might be made worse by redshirting unless you can show the kids are going to get services to improve the situation. Perhaps some of these delays would be best addressed by having the kid in a classroom with other kids and receiving services through the school.

I honestly do not understand why you continue to keep your child in a school where your DC experiences significant bullying and you believe the classroom activities and level are so wildly inappropriate. It seems weird to me.

You seem very ignorant of the reality that most parents experience. Most parents can’t just switch schools out of the blue.

Right. Which leads parents to make careful decisions about when their kids start school. For example— not sending a kid who may struggle to kindergarten too early.

Unless they don’t know about how prevalent it is because the schools don’t say anything and the other moms apparently don’t volunteer the info. Nice.

What information do you feel is lacking? If you ask your local elementary school they will likely tell you the average kindergarten age. You presumably know your child’s age. Do some research into peer reviewed studies about optimal environments for the child’s age you have and see whether your local or chosen kindergarten matches with that. I’m truly confused what you think someone needs to tell you to make this choice?

We arrived back in the US after mostly raising kids on military bases abroad and we arrived in August. Honestly I didn’t even know red shirting was a thing until I saw some really big kindergarten kids on my son’s first day of school. So no I did t put my five year old on a waitlist for preschool, had never heard of “junior kindergarten” at preschool, etc.

That’s really not an excuse for not researching, talking to others, asking around.

Sweetheart, those are all excuses for "I want my child to have an advantage over yours" and we all know it.

I’m a DP, and leaving aside your tone, it’s not an advantage over your student. Your student has exactly the same right to delay a year as anyone else. Nothing is being taken away from you or your child you just made a different choice. Lose your victim mentality around this.

That PP is just mad they didn't know what they were doing.

I really hate the "savvy parents know to redshirt, it's your fault if you don't" argument, because we're talking about kids.

Of course there are going to be parents who, fir whatever reason, don't know the *unspoken* customs if redshirting in a district, and their kid will wind up at a disadvantage. You can criticize the parents for this but it's the kid who suffers.

Which is why there should be NO UNSPOKEN REDSHIRTING CUSTOMS. This should not be gameable. And relishing the idea that some kids struggle in school because their parents naively thought the published age cutoffs were when you are actually supposed to send your kids, and not just a vague suggestion and all the "smart" parents postpone K a year, is a weird flex.

Have a cut off. Enforce a cut off. Make sure the school work makes sense for kids who meet the cut off. This isn't hard. These are kids. We should all want them ALL to succeed.

Sir. OP has her child in a private school. Do you understand even the tiniest facts about private school admissions?

Number one rule: Private schools admit who they want, when they want. That is literally how it works.

Honestly, you people are just ridiculous.

Ma'am. I wasn't talking about OP or private schools, I was specifically addressing the argument made several times on this thread about public schools that parents should figure out how prevalent redshirting is before enrolling their kid and if they don't then it's all their fault if their kid winds up in a classroom with kids 18 months older. I think this is a ridiculous expectation because many parents are simply not in a position to do that -- they just moved to the district, or this is their first child and they don't know anyone with kids in the schools, or English isn't their first language, or they have other issues that prevent them from being more savvy about school enrollment.

Private schools can do what they want. My argument is that public schools should create clear cut offs and enforce them and there shouldn't be this unofficial system that the most in-the-know parents can game to the benefit of their children, because at the end of the day it's the kids who live with these choices. No child should be punished for having a parent who naively thought that since kindergarten is traditionally for 5 year olds turning 6, and since the district's published guidance indicates it's for 5 year old's turning 6, that kindergarten is for 5 year olds turning 6. That kid shouldn't have to navigate a classroom full of 7 year olds just because his parents are friends with the "right" people who would have warned them.

But do tell me that *I* am ridiculous, since after all without your ad hominem attacks, you'd have to rely on logic and actual argument, areas in which you are lacking.

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Anonymous wrote:Public schools aren’t retaining anyone because that costs $$$. I’ve only heard of retention being offered when a kid missed a lot of a grade due to something like a serious medical issue, or at the end of the Covid school years - 2019-20 or 2020-21 - if a kid didn’t progress during the closures. My neighbor had a young for grade 1st grader in 20-21 and FCPS did offer to let her repeat 1st in person.

But let this thread be a heads up to everyone: redshirting is common, perhaps even expected, in private schools, especially for the younger for grade kids. So plan accordingly.

+1, and I would say it’s increasingly common in public school among parents who read the data on developmentally appropriate settings for 4-5. So, assume if you send a four year old they’ll be youngest by a year+, and an early five year old by a year. None of this is secret, or unavailable information to you.

Since most public schools do an age cut off around September 1st, the number of kids attending K at age 4 is very small (and even people who complain about excessive redshirting don't complain about redshirting a kid who would be 4 during the "normal" cut off). In NY (which is the only place with a midyear cut off that results in a lot of 4 year olds being eligible for K) it's common for people to redshirt those kids and no one complains about it.

The only redshirting people complain about is when people start redshirting kids who would be well over 5 when starting K but they hold them back anyway. Yes, in some privates that's common place, but the school generally encourages it and everyone has a chance to do it -- they like having an older class of K students and often they will strongly encourage redshirting summer or late spring birthdays. Some schools even offer a transitional year for young K students before taking the regular K class, so you still wind up with a fairly age-homogenous class.

But in public that's not the case, and when some parents start deciding their April or May birthday kid needs another year, it can leave other parents stuck with the consequences of those actions without warning. No one is going to get mad that a parent redshirted so their kid could start K at 5, but when you see kids starting K at 6 and a half, it becomes an issue.

Please yell at me now and tell me I'm a "crazy anti-redshirter" for agreeing this specific issue is a problem.

As someone with a young for grade kid, I think it is absolutely insane to consider this a problem whatsoever, and really makes you sound like someone who has no experience with any real problems in life.

My kid with an August birthday who I sent on time (she started K at 5 but was among the youngest in her grade) was viciously bullied by a redshirted child in 1st grade. My kid was 6 years old for the entirety of 1st grade. The bullying child turned 8 in September and was signficantly bigger and taller. Redshirting played a major role in the bullying because while this one child was the leader, there were many older kids in the classroom due to redshirting and when the bully would attack/provoke my kid, she'd cry, and then all the older kids would round on her and call her a baby and tease her for being small and young (she is average height for her age).

I had no idea how prevalent redshirting was when I enrolled my kid in K. She was academically and socially ready for a K classroom full of 5 and 6 year old children. In fact she continues to be at the top of her grade academically and she is well liked by teachers for being a good listener who follows directions and is helpful and kind in the classroom (something that apparently the extra years of preschool or staying home did not help instill in these redshirted kids who are merely bigger and older, not more mature).

I absolutely resent that my child's classroom environment has been dominated by older children who I think should have spent their 5/6 year in K learning out to function in elementary school, but instead spent it elsewhere and arrived at elementary school with their own ideas about how school should work. I resent how common bullying and relational aggression are at the school because of these older-but-less-mature kids.

Call me a crazy anti-redshirted if you want. I think redshirting sucks. Kids should start school at the same age so that they learn the same skills and are generally at the same developmental level. Kids with developmental delays can/should be held back to accommodate their delays, but it shouldn't be at the parents' discretion.

We will be moving school districts before these older kids hit puberty in 3rd grade and we have to deal with that.

As a parent who doesn't care about redshirting one way or another (and has both middle-of-age-for grade and young-for-grade kids, none old-for-grade): the bullying isn't because your kid is small. Bullies will find literally anything to gang up on kids about. One of my kids was bulled for not watching Spongebob Squarepants in a late elementary grade. Does that make sense as a thing to mock a kid over? No. But my kid was a prickly and kind of hard-to-get-to-know kid, so of course they were a target. The actual thing to make fun of was incidental to the act of piling on.

And it's possible (probable?) this older kid is lashing out because:
- they do have delays and you have no idea and the delays are social
- they feel embarassed about your kid doing as well when they are so much older.

PP here. Of course bullying can happen for a whole variety of reasons.

But at my kid's specific school, in specific classrooms where there are a large percent of redshirted kids including one that was significantly older, the bullying was closely related to having a cohort of older, bigger, unsocialized kids. My DD was not the only child targeted, but all the children who were bullied were "on time" kids who were on the younger end of normal for the grade. All the bullies were the oldest kids in class.

Also, it's not just about the age difference. It's also that these redshirted kids were not socialized into elementary school when they were young enough for it help. They arrived at K too old and less malleable. In my child's 1st grade class, those older kids RAN the classroom. This year my kid is in 2nd and due to the bullying issues last year, my kid and others who were targeted are in a classroom without any of the much older kids. The classroom is significantly better, with less conflict and fewer behavioral issues.

I don't have any issue with moderate redshirting for kids with summer birthdays. I don't think you should be allowed to redshirt a kid with a birthday during the school year unless there is a clear reason why delaying kindergarten will help. And I actually think a lot of developmental delays might be made worse by redshirting unless you can show the kids are going to get services to improve the situation. Perhaps some of these delays would be best addressed by having the kid in a classroom with other kids and receiving services through the school.

I honestly do not understand why you continue to keep your child in a school where your DC experiences significant bullying and you believe the classroom activities and level are so wildly inappropriate. It seems weird to me.

You seem very ignorant of the reality that most parents experience. Most parents can’t just switch schools out of the blue.

Right. Which leads parents to make careful decisions about when their kids start school. For example— not sending a kid who may struggle to kindergarten too early.

Or, send our kid and get them the help they need so they don’t struggle.

What "help" do you recommend?

IEP’s. Soooo many kids have them. Professional help often paid for by the school district. I’ve see kids get services for adhd, dyslexia, occupational therapy… I think many people like you overestimate your ability and underestimate the ability of professionals with undergrad and grad degrees in education and therapy.

IEPs are for children with disabilities. You have to qualify for them. You can't just "get an IEP."

- Professional with an undergrad and grad degree in education and psychology.

Then what is the issue you feel that you can’t send a 5 to Kinder? I’m telling you, you’re making it something it’s not. It’s not that hard. Trust me.

Some kids just need a bit more time. That’s the help. It’s so weird you can’t understand that. Professionals and parents agree. Busy bodies with faux concerns about other people’s children don’t get an opinion.

No, they don’t. They need to be in school with age appropriate peers

Could you please share the data you’re sourcing this from? That age-identical classrooms are critical to children’s success? Moreso than the developmental appropriateness of the environment? Because candidly I think you’re making this up as you go along.

My four year old and her seven year old cousin are best friends. It’s amazing to see how she brings out leadership and compassion in her older cousin and how her cousin brings out courage and creativity in her.

The discussion is about peers and a child held back isn't necessarily going to be a leader just because they are older. It harms everyone and when you get to HS, do you want your 14 year old in classes with 19-20 year olds as that is whats happening.

You’re right, a child who is redshirted isn’t necessarily going to be a leader and— parents who are redshirting aren’t always doing it for that reason anyway. So don’t worry about the redshirted kids.

You seem to be suggesting a freshman in high school could be taking classes with a senior— while the 20 y/o would be shockingly rare, it’s not more worrying to have a 19 than an 18 y/o senior. What is your panic about here?

It’s it rare at all. Electives, gym, health ed and math are always mixed. My 13-14 year old freshman had three classes with seniors freshman year. An elective that was auditioned in, pe and math.

Ok so please explain your anxiety around a 14 year old being in a class with a 19 year old that doesn’t exist for an 18 year old?

.

19 year olds in high school isn’t redshirting. Those are kids who failed a year, had transfer issues, are foreign students who need more time for the language, were homeschooled or have GED and need the credit etc etc. It happens rarely, but that won’t be solved by banning redshirting. Some areas have specific adult only high schools for ages 18 plus - maybe advocate for that if it’s an issue in your area.

These kids were held back. Except the fall kids who missed the deadline. Let’s call it what it is. It’s a huge issue when these adults are with young teens.

Nonsense. I’m around a ton of teens. This is 100% a non-issue.

The hyperbole from the anti-redshirt posters is so ridiculous. It’s like none of you have contact with any actual teens.

The redshirted kids at my child's middle school who all started puberty a grade earlier than they would have had they started on time absolutely changed the culture if the school and the experience for the non-redshirted kids, for the worse.

I cannot fathom why anyone who has seen a kid through puberty would be like "oh yeah, it would be great to have an age spread of 18 months in 6th and 7th grade. Super cool." It's already a hard time and it's already harder for the kids who start puberty early or late, but now you want to stretch it out even more? Whyyyyyyyyy? It makes no sense.

I am fine if K is for 6/7 year olds. Just make it official and start school later. But this unofficial system where K is for 4-7 yr olds, and people are supposed to case the joint in advance to guess where in that age spread to send their kid? That's dumb. Just pick an age and have everyone send their kid when they hit that age.

Typical onset of puberty for girls is between 8 and 13 years old. For boys, it’s between 9-14 years old. That’s already a 5-year spread within the realm of completely normal.

You need to calm down.

1) Onset is not not equally distributed along those ranges.

2) Redshirting of non-summer birthdays makes the range even wider, which is a substantial issue. It forces families of on time kids to deal with puberty issues a year earlier than even the earliest year they would otherwise deal with it.

3) I feel very calm, thank you -- my kids are through this. Parents choosing to redshirt have not. They are making a choice based on a perceived disadvantage in kindergarten, not understanding the negative impact 4-6 years later. Both for their kid and dir peers.

There is absolutely no evidence for the bolded statement. You don’t understand statistics.

You don't need evidence for basic math.

Redshirting expands the range if ages in one grade. You can argue whether that's a good thing or a bad thing or a neutral thing. But you can't argue it's not a thing.

Without redshirting, the typical 6th grade class would have 11 year olds turning 12, either during the school year or in the summer following. With redshirting, it will have a mix of 11 and 12 year olds at the beginning of the year, and a mix of 12 and 13 year olds at the end PLUS some non-redshirted summer birthdays who are still 11.

Again, you can argue that's not a big deal or that it only amounts to a few extra minutes months, but mathematically, redshirting expands the age range for the grade. Which means, yes, it expands the range of puberty onset.

These are just facts.

That applies equally to the Summer birthdays you’re good with redshirting.

I'm not advocating for any policy or another.

Yes, redshirting summer birthdays expands the age range of a grade. But by less. If redshirting is restricted to summer birthdays, you still get a cohort of kids who are 11/12 in 6th. But some kids will start the year at 12+, instead of starting at 11 and turning 12 during the year. So an expansion, yes, though a more minor one. And say only late summer birthdays are redshirted-- this might expand the range by only a week or two.

That is different than a situation where some parents are redshirting kids with spring birthdays, which will expand the range by 4-6 months.

Two weeks is a fraction of 6 months, so it is not unreasonable for a person to argue that redshirting of kids with birthdays close to the cut off should be allowed, but not kids with birthdays far from the cut off.

Except you know more children are born in August/July/September so the impact isn’t proportionally much smaller.

The thing that makes it unreasonable to argue that redshirting of a September birthday is fine and an October birthday isn’t is that the rules say both are equally permitted and no one on DCUM makes the rules. No schools are trying to limit the practice (private schools outright encourage it) and no lawmaker is going to support giving a right to a September parent that an October parent is denied. So all the anti-redshirt hysteria is just screaming into the internet void that other parents are exercising their prerogatives in a way that OP and her comrades didn’t.

You have to look at the cut off dates. This is a DC/MD/VA board that recently has people from all over but in DC the cut off is 9/30, MD 9/1, and VA 9/30. So, in MD, a September kid can test in from 9/1-10/15 but because the school are so overcrowded, many refuse or find bogus reasons to deny a child, which happened to so we had to go private. Only a few states allow an October kid so that's a mute point.

Privates encourage it due to lack of space and its EASIER for them. Its far easier teaching a 6 year old reading or prereading than a 5 year old who isn't. However, what is also missing is these play based preschools and parents don't work with their kids to get them ready and then blame the child for not being ready and except for documented delays, someone failed this child if they aren't ready or someone is lying. At 5, there should be no expectecations. K is for learning all that.

But preschool should be play based. 3 and 4 year olds should not be doing worksheets at preschool. Kindergarten *should* be that bridge year for introduction to learning - and it used to be- but it’s not anymore. That’s a huge part of the problem; kindergarten expectations are not aligned with the development of 4 turning 5 year olds/very recently turned 5 year olds so those parents of younger kids need to choose if they’re going to send their kids young or at 5 going on 6/early 6 instead.

It should be a mix of things but have academics to prepare kids for school. This is why kids are not ready. K is not a bridge. It’s school. My younger kid with delays did fine as they were prepared for it. This is a parenting and preschool issue.

My experience is that it was a kindergarten issue. My kid had all the academic skills (and then some) coming out of a well respected preschool, but kindergarten was far too much seat time and not enough play. The kids on the older end were mostly okay, but the younger cohort were all really stressed by the environment.

Because it’s the wrong environment.

When we were deciding what to do with our Sept birthday we consulted a friend who happens to be a pediatric psychology chair at a prominent university. I had barely asked the question when she asked how many quality studies I had seen suggesting desk-based work was appropriate for 4-5 year olds— and informed me was that none exist. This isn’t backed up by the data, but environments that would be supported by the data cost money.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Public schools aren’t retaining anyone because that costs $$$. I’ve only heard of retention being offered when a kid missed a lot of a grade due to something like a serious medical issue, or at the end of the Covid school years - 2019-20 or 2020-21 - if a kid didn’t progress during the closures. My neighbor had a young for grade 1st grader in 20-21 and FCPS did offer to let her repeat 1st in person.

But let this thread be a heads up to everyone: redshirting is common, perhaps even expected, in private schools, especially for the younger for grade kids. So plan accordingly.

+1, and I would say it’s increasingly common in public school among parents who read the data on developmentally appropriate settings for 4-5. So, assume if you send a four year old they’ll be youngest by a year+, and an early five year old by a year. None of this is secret, or unavailable information to you.

Since most public schools do an age cut off around September 1st, the number of kids attending K at age 4 is very small (and even people who complain about excessive redshirting don't complain about redshirting a kid who would be 4 during the "normal" cut off). In NY (which is the only place with a midyear cut off that results in a lot of 4 year olds being eligible for K) it's common for people to redshirt those kids and no one complains about it.

The only redshirting people complain about is when people start redshirting kids who would be well over 5 when starting K but they hold them back anyway. Yes, in some privates that's common place, but the school generally encourages it and everyone has a chance to do it -- they like having an older class of K students and often they will strongly encourage redshirting summer or late spring birthdays. Some schools even offer a transitional year for young K students before taking the regular K class, so you still wind up with a fairly age-homogenous class.

But in public that's not the case, and when some parents start deciding their April or May birthday kid needs another year, it can leave other parents stuck with the consequences of those actions without warning. No one is going to get mad that a parent redshirted so their kid could start K at 5, but when you see kids starting K at 6 and a half, it becomes an issue.

Please yell at me now and tell me I'm a "crazy anti-redshirter" for agreeing this specific issue is a problem.

As someone with a young for grade kid, I think it is absolutely insane to consider this a problem whatsoever, and really makes you sound like someone who has no experience with any real problems in life.

My kid with an August birthday who I sent on time (she started K at 5 but was among the youngest in her grade) was viciously bullied by a redshirted child in 1st grade. My kid was 6 years old for the entirety of 1st grade. The bullying child turned 8 in September and was signficantly bigger and taller. Redshirting played a major role in the bullying because while this one child was the leader, there were many older kids in the classroom due to redshirting and when the bully would attack/provoke my kid, she'd cry, and then all the older kids would round on her and call her a baby and tease her for being small and young (she is average height for her age).

I had no idea how prevalent redshirting was when I enrolled my kid in K. She was academically and socially ready for a K classroom full of 5 and 6 year old children. In fact she continues to be at the top of her grade academically and she is well liked by teachers for being a good listener who follows directions and is helpful and kind in the classroom (something that apparently the extra years of preschool or staying home did not help instill in these redshirted kids who are merely bigger and older, not more mature).

I absolutely resent that my child's classroom environment has been dominated by older children who I think should have spent their 5/6 year in K learning out to function in elementary school, but instead spent it elsewhere and arrived at elementary school with their own ideas about how school should work. I resent how common bullying and relational aggression are at the school because of these older-but-less-mature kids.

Call me a crazy anti-redshirted if you want. I think redshirting sucks. Kids should start school at the same age so that they learn the same skills and are generally at the same developmental level. Kids with developmental delays can/should be held back to accommodate their delays, but it shouldn't be at the parents' discretion.

We will be moving school districts before these older kids hit puberty in 3rd grade and we have to deal with that.

As a parent who doesn't care about redshirting one way or another (and has both middle-of-age-for grade and young-for-grade kids, none old-for-grade): the bullying isn't because your kid is small. Bullies will find literally anything to gang up on kids about. One of my kids was bulled for not watching Spongebob Squarepants in a late elementary grade. Does that make sense as a thing to mock a kid over? No. But my kid was a prickly and kind of hard-to-get-to-know kid, so of course they were a target. The actual thing to make fun of was incidental to the act of piling on.

And it's possible (probable?) this older kid is lashing out because:
- they do have delays and you have no idea and the delays are social
- they feel embarassed about your kid doing as well when they are so much older.

PP here. Of course bullying can happen for a whole variety of reasons.

But at my kid's specific school, in specific classrooms where there are a large percent of redshirted kids including one that was significantly older, the bullying was closely related to having a cohort of older, bigger, unsocialized kids. My DD was not the only child targeted, but all the children who were bullied were "on time" kids who were on the younger end of normal for the grade. All the bullies were the oldest kids in class.

Also, it's not just about the age difference. It's also that these redshirted kids were not socialized into elementary school when they were young enough for it help. They arrived at K too old and less malleable. In my child's 1st grade class, those older kids RAN the classroom. This year my kid is in 2nd and due to the bullying issues last year, my kid and others who were targeted are in a classroom without any of the much older kids. The classroom is significantly better, with less conflict and fewer behavioral issues.

I don't have any issue with moderate redshirting for kids with summer birthdays. I don't think you should be allowed to redshirt a kid with a birthday during the school year unless there is a clear reason why delaying kindergarten will help. And I actually think a lot of developmental delays might be made worse by redshirting unless you can show the kids are going to get services to improve the situation. Perhaps some of these delays would be best addressed by having the kid in a classroom with other kids and receiving services through the school.

I honestly do not understand why you continue to keep your child in a school where your DC experiences significant bullying and you believe the classroom activities and level are so wildly inappropriate. It seems weird to me.

You seem very ignorant of the reality that most parents experience. Most parents can’t just switch schools out of the blue.

Right. Which leads parents to make careful decisions about when their kids start school. For example— not sending a kid who may struggle to kindergarten too early.

Unless they don’t know about how prevalent it is because the schools don’t say anything and the other moms apparently don’t volunteer the info. Nice.

What information do you feel is lacking? If you ask your local elementary school they will likely tell you the average kindergarten age. You presumably know your child’s age. Do some research into peer reviewed studies about optimal environments for the child’s age you have and see whether your local or chosen kindergarten matches with that. I’m truly confused what you think someone needs to tell you to make this choice?

We arrived back in the US after mostly raising kids on military bases abroad and we arrived in August. Honestly I didn’t even know red shirting was a thing until I saw some really big kindergarten kids on my son’s first day of school. So no I did t put my five year old on a waitlist for preschool, had never heard of “junior kindergarten” at preschool, etc.

That’s really not an excuse for not researching, talking to others, asking around.

Sweetheart, those are all excuses for "I want my child to have an advantage over yours" and we all know it.

I’m a DP, and leaving aside your tone, it’s not an advantage over your student. Your student has exactly the same right to delay a year as anyone else. Nothing is being taken away from you or your child you just made a different choice. Lose your victim mentality around this.

That PP is just mad they didn't know what they were doing.

I really hate the "savvy parents know to redshirt, it's your fault if you don't" argument, because we're talking about kids.

Of course there are going to be parents who, fir whatever reason, don't know the *unspoken* customs if redshirting in a district, and their kid will wind up at a disadvantage. You can criticize the parents for this but it's the kid who suffers.

Which is why there should be NO UNSPOKEN REDSHIRTING CUSTOMS. This should not be gameable. And relishing the idea that some kids struggle in school because their parents naively thought the published age cutoffs were when you are actually supposed to send your kids, and not just a vague suggestion and all the "smart" parents postpone K a year, is a weird flex.

Have a cut off. Enforce a cut off. Make sure the school work makes sense for kids who meet the cut off. This isn't hard. These are kids. We should all want them ALL to succeed.

Sir. OP has her child in a private school. Do you understand even the tiniest facts about private school admissions?

Number one rule: Private schools admit who they want, when they want. That is literally how it works.

Honestly, you people are just ridiculous.

Ma'am. I wasn't talking about OP or private schools, I was specifically addressing the argument made several times on this thread about public schools that parents should figure out how prevalent redshirting is before enrolling their kid and if they don't then it's all their fault if their kid winds up in a classroom with kids 18 months older. I think this is a ridiculous expectation because many parents are simply not in a position to do that -- they just moved to the district, or this is their first child and they don't know anyone with kids in the schools, or English isn't their first language, or they have other issues that prevent them from being more savvy about school enrollment.

Private schools can do what they want. My argument is that public schools should create clear cut offs and enforce them and there shouldn't be this unofficial system that the most in-the-know parents can game to the benefit of their children, because at the end of the day it's the kids who live with these choices. No child should be punished for having a parent who naively thought that since kindergarten is traditionally for 5 year olds turning 6, and since the district's published guidance indicates it's for 5 year old's turning 6, that kindergarten is for 5 year olds turning 6. That kid shouldn't have to navigate a classroom full of 7 year olds just because his parents are friends with the "right" people who would have warned them.

But do tell me that *I* am ridiculous, since after all without your ad hominem attacks, you'd have to rely on logic and actual argument, areas in which you are lacking.

These are already in place. Someone already posted MCPS, FCPS is on the website that you have the option to delay enrollment for a year, how much more clear do you want them to be?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Public schools aren’t retaining anyone because that costs $$$. I’ve only heard of retention being offered when a kid missed a lot of a grade due to something like a serious medical issue, or at the end of the Covid school years - 2019-20 or 2020-21 - if a kid didn’t progress during the closures. My neighbor had a young for grade 1st grader in 20-21 and FCPS did offer to let her repeat 1st in person.

But let this thread be a heads up to everyone: redshirting is common, perhaps even expected, in private schools, especially for the younger for grade kids. So plan accordingly.

+1, and I would say it’s increasingly common in public school among parents who read the data on developmentally appropriate settings for 4-5. So, assume if you send a four year old they’ll be youngest by a year+, and an early five year old by a year. None of this is secret, or unavailable information to you.

Since most public schools do an age cut off around September 1st, the number of kids attending K at age 4 is very small (and even people who complain about excessive redshirting don't complain about redshirting a kid who would be 4 during the "normal" cut off). In NY (which is the only place with a midyear cut off that results in a lot of 4 year olds being eligible for K) it's common for people to redshirt those kids and no one complains about it.

The only redshirting people complain about is when people start redshirting kids who would be well over 5 when starting K but they hold them back anyway. Yes, in some privates that's common place, but the school generally encourages it and everyone has a chance to do it -- they like having an older class of K students and often they will strongly encourage redshirting summer or late spring birthdays. Some schools even offer a transitional year for young K students before taking the regular K class, so you still wind up with a fairly age-homogenous class.

But in public that's not the case, and when some parents start deciding their April or May birthday kid needs another year, it can leave other parents stuck with the consequences of those actions without warning. No one is going to get mad that a parent redshirted so their kid could start K at 5, but when you see kids starting K at 6 and a half, it becomes an issue.

Please yell at me now and tell me I'm a "crazy anti-redshirter" for agreeing this specific issue is a problem.

As someone with a young for grade kid, I think it is absolutely insane to consider this a problem whatsoever, and really makes you sound like someone who has no experience with any real problems in life.

My kid with an August birthday who I sent on time (she started K at 5 but was among the youngest in her grade) was viciously bullied by a redshirted child in 1st grade. My kid was 6 years old for the entirety of 1st grade. The bullying child turned 8 in September and was signficantly bigger and taller. Redshirting played a major role in the bullying because while this one child was the leader, there were many older kids in the classroom due to redshirting and when the bully would attack/provoke my kid, she'd cry, and then all the older kids would round on her and call her a baby and tease her for being small and young (she is average height for her age).

I had no idea how prevalent redshirting was when I enrolled my kid in K. She was academically and socially ready for a K classroom full of 5 and 6 year old children. In fact she continues to be at the top of her grade academically and she is well liked by teachers for being a good listener who follows directions and is helpful and kind in the classroom (something that apparently the extra years of preschool or staying home did not help instill in these redshirted kids who are merely bigger and older, not more mature).

I absolutely resent that my child's classroom environment has been dominated by older children who I think should have spent their 5/6 year in K learning out to function in elementary school, but instead spent it elsewhere and arrived at elementary school with their own ideas about how school should work. I resent how common bullying and relational aggression are at the school because of these older-but-less-mature kids.

Call me a crazy anti-redshirted if you want. I think redshirting sucks. Kids should start school at the same age so that they learn the same skills and are generally at the same developmental level. Kids with developmental delays can/should be held back to accommodate their delays, but it shouldn't be at the parents' discretion.

We will be moving school districts before these older kids hit puberty in 3rd grade and we have to deal with that.

As a parent who doesn't care about redshirting one way or another (and has both middle-of-age-for grade and young-for-grade kids, none old-for-grade): the bullying isn't because your kid is small. Bullies will find literally anything to gang up on kids about. One of my kids was bulled for not watching Spongebob Squarepants in a late elementary grade. Does that make sense as a thing to mock a kid over? No. But my kid was a prickly and kind of hard-to-get-to-know kid, so of course they were a target. The actual thing to make fun of was incidental to the act of piling on.

And it's possible (probable?) this older kid is lashing out because:
- they do have delays and you have no idea and the delays are social
- they feel embarassed about your kid doing as well when they are so much older.

PP here. Of course bullying can happen for a whole variety of reasons.

But at my kid's specific school, in specific classrooms where there are a large percent of redshirted kids including one that was significantly older, the bullying was closely related to having a cohort of older, bigger, unsocialized kids. My DD was not the only child targeted, but all the children who were bullied were "on time" kids who were on the younger end of normal for the grade. All the bullies were the oldest kids in class.

Also, it's not just about the age difference. It's also that these redshirted kids were not socialized into elementary school when they were young enough for it help. They arrived at K too old and less malleable. In my child's 1st grade class, those older kids RAN the classroom. This year my kid is in 2nd and due to the bullying issues last year, my kid and others who were targeted are in a classroom without any of the much older kids. The classroom is significantly better, with less conflict and fewer behavioral issues.

I don't have any issue with moderate redshirting for kids with summer birthdays. I don't think you should be allowed to redshirt a kid with a birthday during the school year unless there is a clear reason why delaying kindergarten will help. And I actually think a lot of developmental delays might be made worse by redshirting unless you can show the kids are going to get services to improve the situation. Perhaps some of these delays would be best addressed by having the kid in a classroom with other kids and receiving services through the school.

I honestly do not understand why you continue to keep your child in a school where your DC experiences significant bullying and you believe the classroom activities and level are so wildly inappropriate. It seems weird to me.

You seem very ignorant of the reality that most parents experience. Most parents can’t just switch schools out of the blue.

Right. Which leads parents to make careful decisions about when their kids start school. For example— not sending a kid who may struggle to kindergarten too early.

Unless they don’t know about how prevalent it is because the schools don’t say anything and the other moms apparently don’t volunteer the info. Nice.

What information do you feel is lacking? If you ask your local elementary school they will likely tell you the average kindergarten age. You presumably know your child’s age. Do some research into peer reviewed studies about optimal environments for the child’s age you have and see whether your local or chosen kindergarten matches with that. I’m truly confused what you think someone needs to tell you to make this choice?

We arrived back in the US after mostly raising kids on military bases abroad and we arrived in August. Honestly I didn’t even know red shirting was a thing until I saw some really big kindergarten kids on my son’s first day of school. So no I did t put my five year old on a waitlist for preschool, had never heard of “junior kindergarten” at preschool, etc.

That’s really not an excuse for not researching, talking to others, asking around.

Sweetheart, those are all excuses for "I want my child to have an advantage over yours" and we all know it.

I’m a DP, and leaving aside your tone, it’s not an advantage over your student. Your student has exactly the same right to delay a year as anyone else. Nothing is being taken away from you or your child you just made a different choice. Lose your victim mentality around this.

That PP is just mad they didn't know what they were doing.

I really hate the "savvy parents know to redshirt, it's your fault if you don't" argument, because we're talking about kids.

Of course there are going to be parents who, fir whatever reason, don't know the *unspoken* customs if redshirting in a district, and their kid will wind up at a disadvantage. You can criticize the parents for this but it's the kid who suffers.

Which is why there should be NO UNSPOKEN REDSHIRTING CUSTOMS. This should not be gameable. And relishing the idea that some kids struggle in school because their parents naively thought the published age cutoffs were when you are actually supposed to send your kids, and not just a vague suggestion and all the "smart" parents postpone K a year, is a weird flex.

Have a cut off. Enforce a cut off. Make sure the school work makes sense for kids who meet the cut off. This isn't hard. These are kids. We should all want them ALL to succeed.

Sir. OP has her child in a private school. Do you understand even the tiniest facts about private school admissions?

Number one rule: Private schools admit who they want, when they want. That is literally how it works.

Honestly, you people are just ridiculous.

Ma'am. I wasn't talking about OP or private schools, I was specifically addressing the argument made several times on this thread about public schools that parents should figure out how prevalent redshirting is before enrolling their kid and if they don't then it's all their fault if their kid winds up in a classroom with kids 18 months older. I think this is a ridiculous expectation because many parents are simply not in a position to do that -- they just moved to the district, or this is their first child and they don't know anyone with kids in the schools, or English isn't their first language, or they have other issues that prevent them from being more savvy about school enrollment.

Private schools can do what they want. My argument is that public schools should create clear cut offs and enforce them and there shouldn't be this unofficial system that the most in-the-know parents can game to the benefit of their children, because at the end of the day it's the kids who live with these choices. No child should be punished for having a parent who naively thought that since kindergarten is traditionally for 5 year olds turning 6, and since the district's published guidance indicates it's for 5 year old's turning 6, that kindergarten is for 5 year olds turning 6. That kid shouldn't have to navigate a classroom full of 7 year olds just because his parents are friends with the "right" people who would have warned them.

But do tell me that *I* am ridiculous, since after all without your ad hominem attacks, you'd have to rely on logic and actual argument, areas in which you are lacking.

These are already in place. Someone already posted MCPS, FCPS is on the website that you have the option to delay enrollment for a year, how much more clear do you want them to be?

A grace period of a year is too long. That's not a cut off at all. And it's not clear because a parent who wants their kid to be generally in the same age cohort of most kids in their class literally has to do reconnaissance to figure out what other parents are going to do. Parents don't want their kids to be outliers age-wise. That's normal and should be accommodated.

I would advocate for either a firm cut off, no exceptions unless indicated by a medically documented delay or special need OR a September cut off with a grace period for kids with summer birthdays.

I do not think allowing parents to redshirt children with fall/winter/spring birthdays makes sense and have seen the negative impacts of this policy in the classroom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Public schools aren’t retaining anyone because that costs $$$. I’ve only heard of retention being offered when a kid missed a lot of a grade due to something like a serious medical issue, or at the end of the Covid school years - 2019-20 or 2020-21 - if a kid didn’t progress during the closures. My neighbor had a young for grade 1st grader in 20-21 and FCPS did offer to let her repeat 1st in person.

But let this thread be a heads up to everyone: redshirting is common, perhaps even expected, in private schools, especially for the younger for grade kids. So plan accordingly.

+1, and I would say it’s increasingly common in public school among parents who read the data on developmentally appropriate settings for 4-5. So, assume if you send a four year old they’ll be youngest by a year+, and an early five year old by a year. None of this is secret, or unavailable information to you.

Since most public schools do an age cut off around September 1st, the number of kids attending K at age 4 is very small (and even people who complain about excessive redshirting don't complain about redshirting a kid who would be 4 during the "normal" cut off). In NY (which is the only place with a midyear cut off that results in a lot of 4 year olds being eligible for K) it's common for people to redshirt those kids and no one complains about it.

The only redshirting people complain about is when people start redshirting kids who would be well over 5 when starting K but they hold them back anyway. Yes, in some privates that's common place, but the school generally encourages it and everyone has a chance to do it -- they like having an older class of K students and often they will strongly encourage redshirting summer or late spring birthdays. Some schools even offer a transitional year for young K students before taking the regular K class, so you still wind up with a fairly age-homogenous class.

But in public that's not the case, and when some parents start deciding their April or May birthday kid needs another year, it can leave other parents stuck with the consequences of those actions without warning. No one is going to get mad that a parent redshirted so their kid could start K at 5, but when you see kids starting K at 6 and a half, it becomes an issue.

Please yell at me now and tell me I'm a "crazy anti-redshirter" for agreeing this specific issue is a problem.

As someone with a young for grade kid, I think it is absolutely insane to consider this a problem whatsoever, and really makes you sound like someone who has no experience with any real problems in life.

My kid with an August birthday who I sent on time (she started K at 5 but was among the youngest in her grade) was viciously bullied by a redshirted child in 1st grade. My kid was 6 years old for the entirety of 1st grade. The bullying child turned 8 in September and was signficantly bigger and taller. Redshirting played a major role in the bullying because while this one child was the leader, there were many older kids in the classroom due to redshirting and when the bully would attack/provoke my kid, she'd cry, and then all the older kids would round on her and call her a baby and tease her for being small and young (she is average height for her age).

I had no idea how prevalent redshirting was when I enrolled my kid in K. She was academically and socially ready for a K classroom full of 5 and 6 year old children. In fact she continues to be at the top of her grade academically and she is well liked by teachers for being a good listener who follows directions and is helpful and kind in the classroom (something that apparently the extra years of preschool or staying home did not help instill in these redshirted kids who are merely bigger and older, not more mature).

I absolutely resent that my child's classroom environment has been dominated by older children who I think should have spent their 5/6 year in K learning out to function in elementary school, but instead spent it elsewhere and arrived at elementary school with their own ideas about how school should work. I resent how common bullying and relational aggression are at the school because of these older-but-less-mature kids.

Call me a crazy anti-redshirted if you want. I think redshirting sucks. Kids should start school at the same age so that they learn the same skills and are generally at the same developmental level. Kids with developmental delays can/should be held back to accommodate their delays, but it shouldn't be at the parents' discretion.

We will be moving school districts before these older kids hit puberty in 3rd grade and we have to deal with that.

As a parent who doesn't care about redshirting one way or another (and has both middle-of-age-for grade and young-for-grade kids, none old-for-grade): the bullying isn't because your kid is small. Bullies will find literally anything to gang up on kids about. One of my kids was bulled for not watching Spongebob Squarepants in a late elementary grade. Does that make sense as a thing to mock a kid over? No. But my kid was a prickly and kind of hard-to-get-to-know kid, so of course they were a target. The actual thing to make fun of was incidental to the act of piling on.

And it's possible (probable?) this older kid is lashing out because:
- they do have delays and you have no idea and the delays are social
- they feel embarassed about your kid doing as well when they are so much older.

PP here. Of course bullying can happen for a whole variety of reasons.

But at my kid's specific school, in specific classrooms where there are a large percent of redshirted kids including one that was significantly older, the bullying was closely related to having a cohort of older, bigger, unsocialized kids. My DD was not the only child targeted, but all the children who were bullied were "on time" kids who were on the younger end of normal for the grade. All the bullies were the oldest kids in class.

Also, it's not just about the age difference. It's also that these redshirted kids were not socialized into elementary school when they were young enough for it help. They arrived at K too old and less malleable. In my child's 1st grade class, those older kids RAN the classroom. This year my kid is in 2nd and due to the bullying issues last year, my kid and others who were targeted are in a classroom without any of the much older kids. The classroom is significantly better, with less conflict and fewer behavioral issues.

I don't have any issue with moderate redshirting for kids with summer birthdays. I don't think you should be allowed to redshirt a kid with a birthday during the school year unless there is a clear reason why delaying kindergarten will help. And I actually think a lot of developmental delays might be made worse by redshirting unless you can show the kids are going to get services to improve the situation. Perhaps some of these delays would be best addressed by having the kid in a classroom with other kids and receiving services through the school.

I honestly do not understand why you continue to keep your child in a school where your DC experiences significant bullying and you believe the classroom activities and level are so wildly inappropriate. It seems weird to me.

You seem very ignorant of the reality that most parents experience. Most parents can’t just switch schools out of the blue.

Right. Which leads parents to make careful decisions about when their kids start school. For example— not sending a kid who may struggle to kindergarten too early.

Unless they don’t know about how prevalent it is because the schools don’t say anything and the other moms apparently don’t volunteer the info. Nice.

What information do you feel is lacking? If you ask your local elementary school they will likely tell you the average kindergarten age. You presumably know your child’s age. Do some research into peer reviewed studies about optimal environments for the child’s age you have and see whether your local or chosen kindergarten matches with that. I’m truly confused what you think someone needs to tell you to make this choice?

We arrived back in the US after mostly raising kids on military bases abroad and we arrived in August. Honestly I didn’t even know red shirting was a thing until I saw some really big kindergarten kids on my son’s first day of school. So no I did t put my five year old on a waitlist for preschool, had never heard of “junior kindergarten” at preschool, etc.

That’s really not an excuse for not researching, talking to others, asking around.

Sweetheart, those are all excuses for "I want my child to have an advantage over yours" and we all know it.

I’m a DP, and leaving aside your tone, it’s not an advantage over your student. Your student has exactly the same right to delay a year as anyone else. Nothing is being taken away from you or your child you just made a different choice. Lose your victim mentality around this.

That PP is just mad they didn't know what they were doing.

I really hate the "savvy parents know to redshirt, it's your fault if you don't" argument, because we're talking about kids.

Of course there are going to be parents who, fir whatever reason, don't know the *unspoken* customs if redshirting in a district, and their kid will wind up at a disadvantage. You can criticize the parents for this but it's the kid who suffers.

Which is why there should be NO UNSPOKEN REDSHIRTING CUSTOMS. This should not be gameable. And relishing the idea that some kids struggle in school because their parents naively thought the published age cutoffs were when you are actually supposed to send your kids, and not just a vague suggestion and all the "smart" parents postpone K a year, is a weird flex.

Have a cut off. Enforce a cut off. Make sure the school work makes sense for kids who meet the cut off. This isn't hard. These are kids. We should all want them ALL to succeed.

Sir. OP has her child in a private school. Do you understand even the tiniest facts about private school admissions?

Number one rule: Private schools admit who they want, when they want. That is literally how it works.

Honestly, you people are just ridiculous.

Ma'am. I wasn't talking about OP or private schools, I was specifically addressing the argument made several times on this thread about public schools that parents should figure out how prevalent redshirting is before enrolling their kid and if they don't then it's all their fault if their kid winds up in a classroom with kids 18 months older. I think this is a ridiculous expectation because many parents are simply not in a position to do that -- they just moved to the district, or this is their first child and they don't know anyone with kids in the schools, or English isn't their first language, or they have other issues that prevent them from being more savvy about school enrollment.

Private schools can do what they want. My argument is that public schools should create clear cut offs and enforce them and there shouldn't be this unofficial system that the most in-the-know parents can game to the benefit of their children, because at the end of the day it's the kids who live with these choices. No child should be punished for having a parent who naively thought that since kindergarten is traditionally for 5 year olds turning 6, and since the district's published guidance indicates it's for 5 year old's turning 6, that kindergarten is for 5 year olds turning 6. That kid shouldn't have to navigate a classroom full of 7 year olds just because his parents are friends with the "right" people who would have warned them.

But do tell me that *I* am ridiculous, since after all without your ad hominem attacks, you'd have to rely on logic and actual argument, areas in which you are lacking.

Someone who can’t read a school district website or an OP is in no position to be claiming any sort of superiority of argument. Come back to us when you learn to read.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Public schools aren’t retaining anyone because that costs $$$. I’ve only heard of retention being offered when a kid missed a lot of a grade due to something like a serious medical issue, or at the end of the Covid school years - 2019-20 or 2020-21 - if a kid didn’t progress during the closures. My neighbor had a young for grade 1st grader in 20-21 and FCPS did offer to let her repeat 1st in person.

But let this thread be a heads up to everyone: redshirting is common, perhaps even expected, in private schools, especially for the younger for grade kids. So plan accordingly.

+1, and I would say it’s increasingly common in public school among parents who read the data on developmentally appropriate settings for 4-5. So, assume if you send a four year old they’ll be youngest by a year+, and an early five year old by a year. None of this is secret, or unavailable information to you.

Since most public schools do an age cut off around September 1st, the number of kids attending K at age 4 is very small (and even people who complain about excessive redshirting don't complain about redshirting a kid who would be 4 during the "normal" cut off). In NY (which is the only place with a midyear cut off that results in a lot of 4 year olds being eligible for K) it's common for people to redshirt those kids and no one complains about it.

The only redshirting people complain about is when people start redshirting kids who would be well over 5 when starting K but they hold them back anyway. Yes, in some privates that's common place, but the school generally encourages it and everyone has a chance to do it -- they like having an older class of K students and often they will strongly encourage redshirting summer or late spring birthdays. Some schools even offer a transitional year for young K students before taking the regular K class, so you still wind up with a fairly age-homogenous class.

But in public that's not the case, and when some parents start deciding their April or May birthday kid needs another year, it can leave other parents stuck with the consequences of those actions without warning. No one is going to get mad that a parent redshirted so their kid could start K at 5, but when you see kids starting K at 6 and a half, it becomes an issue.

Please yell at me now and tell me I'm a "crazy anti-redshirter" for agreeing this specific issue is a problem.

As someone with a young for grade kid, I think it is absolutely insane to consider this a problem whatsoever, and really makes you sound like someone who has no experience with any real problems in life.

My kid with an August birthday who I sent on time (she started K at 5 but was among the youngest in her grade) was viciously bullied by a redshirted child in 1st grade. My kid was 6 years old for the entirety of 1st grade. The bullying child turned 8 in September and was signficantly bigger and taller. Redshirting played a major role in the bullying because while this one child was the leader, there were many older kids in the classroom due to redshirting and when the bully would attack/provoke my kid, she'd cry, and then all the older kids would round on her and call her a baby and tease her for being small and young (she is average height for her age).

I had no idea how prevalent redshirting was when I enrolled my kid in K. She was academically and socially ready for a K classroom full of 5 and 6 year old children. In fact she continues to be at the top of her grade academically and she is well liked by teachers for being a good listener who follows directions and is helpful and kind in the classroom (something that apparently the extra years of preschool or staying home did not help instill in these redshirted kids who are merely bigger and older, not more mature).

I absolutely resent that my child's classroom environment has been dominated by older children who I think should have spent their 5/6 year in K learning out to function in elementary school, but instead spent it elsewhere and arrived at elementary school with their own ideas about how school should work. I resent how common bullying and relational aggression are at the school because of these older-but-less-mature kids.

Call me a crazy anti-redshirted if you want. I think redshirting sucks. Kids should start school at the same age so that they learn the same skills and are generally at the same developmental level. Kids with developmental delays can/should be held back to accommodate their delays, but it shouldn't be at the parents' discretion.

We will be moving school districts before these older kids hit puberty in 3rd grade and we have to deal with that.

As a parent who doesn't care about redshirting one way or another (and has both middle-of-age-for grade and young-for-grade kids, none old-for-grade): the bullying isn't because your kid is small. Bullies will find literally anything to gang up on kids about. One of my kids was bulled for not watching Spongebob Squarepants in a late elementary grade. Does that make sense as a thing to mock a kid over? No. But my kid was a prickly and kind of hard-to-get-to-know kid, so of course they were a target. The actual thing to make fun of was incidental to the act of piling on.

And it's possible (probable?) this older kid is lashing out because:
- they do have delays and you have no idea and the delays are social
- they feel embarassed about your kid doing as well when they are so much older.

PP here. Of course bullying can happen for a whole variety of reasons.

But at my kid's specific school, in specific classrooms where there are a large percent of redshirted kids including one that was significantly older, the bullying was closely related to having a cohort of older, bigger, unsocialized kids. My DD was not the only child targeted, but all the children who were bullied were "on time" kids who were on the younger end of normal for the grade. All the bullies were the oldest kids in class.

Also, it's not just about the age difference. It's also that these redshirted kids were not socialized into elementary school when they were young enough for it help. They arrived at K too old and less malleable. In my child's 1st grade class, those older kids RAN the classroom. This year my kid is in 2nd and due to the bullying issues last year, my kid and others who were targeted are in a classroom without any of the much older kids. The classroom is significantly better, with less conflict and fewer behavioral issues.

I don't have any issue with moderate redshirting for kids with summer birthdays. I don't think you should be allowed to redshirt a kid with a birthday during the school year unless there is a clear reason why delaying kindergarten will help. And I actually think a lot of developmental delays might be made worse by redshirting unless you can show the kids are going to get services to improve the situation. Perhaps some of these delays would be best addressed by having the kid in a classroom with other kids and receiving services through the school.

I honestly do not understand why you continue to keep your child in a school where your DC experiences significant bullying and you believe the classroom activities and level are so wildly inappropriate. It seems weird to me.

You seem very ignorant of the reality that most parents experience. Most parents can’t just switch schools out of the blue.

Right. Which leads parents to make careful decisions about when their kids start school. For example— not sending a kid who may struggle to kindergarten too early.

Unless they don’t know about how prevalent it is because the schools don’t say anything and the other moms apparently don’t volunteer the info. Nice.

What information do you feel is lacking? If you ask your local elementary school they will likely tell you the average kindergarten age. You presumably know your child’s age. Do some research into peer reviewed studies about optimal environments for the child’s age you have and see whether your local or chosen kindergarten matches with that. I’m truly confused what you think someone needs to tell you to make this choice?

We arrived back in the US after mostly raising kids on military bases abroad and we arrived in August. Honestly I didn’t even know red shirting was a thing until I saw some really big kindergarten kids on my son’s first day of school. So no I did t put my five year old on a waitlist for preschool, had never heard of “junior kindergarten” at preschool, etc.

That’s really not an excuse for not researching, talking to others, asking around.

Sweetheart, those are all excuses for "I want my child to have an advantage over yours" and we all know it.

I’m a DP, and leaving aside your tone, it’s not an advantage over your student. Your student has exactly the same right to delay a year as anyone else. Nothing is being taken away from you or your child you just made a different choice. Lose your victim mentality around this.

That PP is just mad they didn't know what they were doing.

I really hate the "savvy parents know to redshirt, it's your fault if you don't" argument, because we're talking about kids.

Of course there are going to be parents who, fir whatever reason, don't know the *unspoken* customs if redshirting in a district, and their kid will wind up at a disadvantage. You can criticize the parents for this but it's the kid who suffers.

Which is why there should be NO UNSPOKEN REDSHIRTING CUSTOMS. This should not be gameable. And relishing the idea that some kids struggle in school because their parents naively thought the published age cutoffs were when you are actually supposed to send your kids, and not just a vague suggestion and all the "smart" parents postpone K a year, is a weird flex.

Have a cut off. Enforce a cut off. Make sure the school work makes sense for kids who meet the cut off. This isn't hard. These are kids. We should all want them ALL to succeed.

Sir. OP has her child in a private school. Do you understand even the tiniest facts about private school admissions?

Number one rule: Private schools admit who they want, when they want. That is literally how it works.

Honestly, you people are just ridiculous.

Ma'am. I wasn't talking about OP or private schools, I was specifically addressing the argument made several times on this thread about public schools that parents should figure out how prevalent redshirting is before enrolling their kid and if they don't then it's all their fault if their kid winds up in a classroom with kids 18 months older. I think this is a ridiculous expectation because many parents are simply not in a position to do that -- they just moved to the district, or this is their first child and they don't know anyone with kids in the schools, or English isn't their first language, or they have other issues that prevent them from being more savvy about school enrollment.

Private schools can do what they want. My argument is that public schools should create clear cut offs and enforce them and there shouldn't be this unofficial system that the most in-the-know parents can game to the benefit of their children, because at the end of the day it's the kids who live with these choices. No child should be punished for having a parent who naively thought that since kindergarten is traditionally for 5 year olds turning 6, and since the district's published guidance indicates it's for 5 year old's turning 6, that kindergarten is for 5 year olds turning 6. That kid shouldn't have to navigate a classroom full of 7 year olds just because his parents are friends with the "right" people who would have warned them.

But do tell me that *I* am ridiculous, since after all without your ad hominem attacks, you'd have to rely on logic and actual argument, areas in which you are lacking.

These are already in place. Someone already posted MCPS, FCPS is on the website that you have the option to delay enrollment for a year, how much more clear do you want them to be?

A grace period of a year is too long. That's not a cut off at all. And it's not clear because a parent who wants their kid to be generally in the same age cohort of most kids in their class literally has to do reconnaissance to figure out what other parents are going to do. Parents don't want their kids to be outliers age-wise. That's normal and should be accommodated.

I would advocate for either a firm cut off, no exceptions unless indicated by a medically documented delay or special need OR a September cut off with a grace period for kids with summer birthdays.

I do not think allowing parents to redshirt children with fall/winter/spring birthdays makes sense and have seen the negative impacts of this policy in the classroom.

Not liking what the cutoffs are isn’t the same as there not being an enforced cutoff. Just recognize that rules do exist and are enforced— I see you don’t like the rules but that’s not the same as them not existing or being unclear.

Your uninformed parent inadvertently letting their kid be the youngest isn’t solved by your suggestion above that summer kids can redshirt: a parent “without bandwidth” could send their Sept 30 4 year old who will be more than a year younger than a parent “with bandwidth” who redshirted their June birthday.

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Anonymous wrote:Public schools aren’t retaining anyone because that costs $$$. I’ve only heard of retention being offered when a kid missed a lot of a grade due to something like a serious medical issue, or at the end of the Covid school years - 2019-20 or 2020-21 - if a kid didn’t progress during the closures. My neighbor had a young for grade 1st grader in 20-21 and FCPS did offer to let her repeat 1st in person.

But let this thread be a heads up to everyone: redshirting is common, perhaps even expected, in private schools, especially for the younger for grade kids. So plan accordingly.

+1, and I would say it’s increasingly common in public school among parents who read the data on developmentally appropriate settings for 4-5. So, assume if you send a four year old they’ll be youngest by a year+, and an early five year old by a year. None of this is secret, or unavailable information to you.

Since most public schools do an age cut off around September 1st, the number of kids attending K at age 4 is very small (and even people who complain about excessive redshirting don't complain about redshirting a kid who would be 4 during the "normal" cut off). In NY (which is the only place with a midyear cut off that results in a lot of 4 year olds being eligible for K) it's common for people to redshirt those kids and no one complains about it.

The only redshirting people complain about is when people start redshirting kids who would be well over 5 when starting K but they hold them back anyway. Yes, in some privates that's common place, but the school generally encourages it and everyone has a chance to do it -- they like having an older class of K students and often they will strongly encourage redshirting summer or late spring birthdays. Some schools even offer a transitional year for young K students before taking the regular K class, so you still wind up with a fairly age-homogenous class.

But in public that's not the case, and when some parents start deciding their April or May birthday kid needs another year, it can leave other parents stuck with the consequences of those actions without warning. No one is going to get mad that a parent redshirted so their kid could start K at 5, but when you see kids starting K at 6 and a half, it becomes an issue.

Please yell at me now and tell me I'm a "crazy anti-redshirter" for agreeing this specific issue is a problem.

As someone with a young for grade kid, I think it is absolutely insane to consider this a problem whatsoever, and really makes you sound like someone who has no experience with any real problems in life.

My kid with an August birthday who I sent on time (she started K at 5 but was among the youngest in her grade) was viciously bullied by a redshirted child in 1st grade. My kid was 6 years old for the entirety of 1st grade. The bullying child turned 8 in September and was signficantly bigger and taller. Redshirting played a major role in the bullying because while this one child was the leader, there were many older kids in the classroom due to redshirting and when the bully would attack/provoke my kid, she'd cry, and then all the older kids would round on her and call her a baby and tease her for being small and young (she is average height for her age).

I had no idea how prevalent redshirting was when I enrolled my kid in K. She was academically and socially ready for a K classroom full of 5 and 6 year old children. In fact she continues to be at the top of her grade academically and she is well liked by teachers for being a good listener who follows directions and is helpful and kind in the classroom (something that apparently the extra years of preschool or staying home did not help instill in these redshirted kids who are merely bigger and older, not more mature).

I absolutely resent that my child's classroom environment has been dominated by older children who I think should have spent their 5/6 year in K learning out to function in elementary school, but instead spent it elsewhere and arrived at elementary school with their own ideas about how school should work. I resent how common bullying and relational aggression are at the school because of these older-but-less-mature kids.

Call me a crazy anti-redshirted if you want. I think redshirting sucks. Kids should start school at the same age so that they learn the same skills and are generally at the same developmental level. Kids with developmental delays can/should be held back to accommodate their delays, but it shouldn't be at the parents' discretion.

We will be moving school districts before these older kids hit puberty in 3rd grade and we have to deal with that.

As a parent who doesn't care about redshirting one way or another (and has both middle-of-age-for grade and young-for-grade kids, none old-for-grade): the bullying isn't because your kid is small. Bullies will find literally anything to gang up on kids about. One of my kids was bulled for not watching Spongebob Squarepants in a late elementary grade. Does that make sense as a thing to mock a kid over? No. But my kid was a prickly and kind of hard-to-get-to-know kid, so of course they were a target. The actual thing to make fun of was incidental to the act of piling on.

And it's possible (probable?) this older kid is lashing out because:
- they do have delays and you have no idea and the delays are social
- they feel embarassed about your kid doing as well when they are so much older.

PP here. Of course bullying can happen for a whole variety of reasons.

But at my kid's specific school, in specific classrooms where there are a large percent of redshirted kids including one that was significantly older, the bullying was closely related to having a cohort of older, bigger, unsocialized kids. My DD was not the only child targeted, but all the children who were bullied were "on time" kids who were on the younger end of normal for the grade. All the bullies were the oldest kids in class.

Also, it's not just about the age difference. It's also that these redshirted kids were not socialized into elementary school when they were young enough for it help. They arrived at K too old and less malleable. In my child's 1st grade class, those older kids RAN the classroom. This year my kid is in 2nd and due to the bullying issues last year, my kid and others who were targeted are in a classroom without any of the much older kids. The classroom is significantly better, with less conflict and fewer behavioral issues.

I don't have any issue with moderate redshirting for kids with summer birthdays. I don't think you should be allowed to redshirt a kid with a birthday during the school year unless there is a clear reason why delaying kindergarten will help. And I actually think a lot of developmental delays might be made worse by redshirting unless you can show the kids are going to get services to improve the situation. Perhaps some of these delays would be best addressed by having the kid in a classroom with other kids and receiving services through the school.

I honestly do not understand why you continue to keep your child in a school where your DC experiences significant bullying and you believe the classroom activities and level are so wildly inappropriate. It seems weird to me.

You seem very ignorant of the reality that most parents experience. Most parents can’t just switch schools out of the blue.

Right. Which leads parents to make careful decisions about when their kids start school. For example— not sending a kid who may struggle to kindergarten too early.

Unless they don’t know about how prevalent it is because the schools don’t say anything and the other moms apparently don’t volunteer the info. Nice.

What information do you feel is lacking? If you ask your local elementary school they will likely tell you the average kindergarten age. You presumably know your child’s age. Do some research into peer reviewed studies about optimal environments for the child’s age you have and see whether your local or chosen kindergarten matches with that. I’m truly confused what you think someone needs to tell you to make this choice?

We arrived back in the US after mostly raising kids on military bases abroad and we arrived in August. Honestly I didn’t even know red shirting was a thing until I saw some really big kindergarten kids on my son’s first day of school. So no I did t put my five year old on a waitlist for preschool, had never heard of “junior kindergarten” at preschool, etc.

That’s really not an excuse for not researching, talking to others, asking around.

Sweetheart, those are all excuses for "I want my child to have an advantage over yours" and we all know it.

I’m a DP, and leaving aside your tone, it’s not an advantage over your student. Your student has exactly the same right to delay a year as anyone else. Nothing is being taken away from you or your child you just made a different choice. Lose your victim mentality around this.

That PP is just mad they didn't know what they were doing.

I really hate the "savvy parents know to redshirt, it's your fault if you don't" argument, because we're talking about kids.

Of course there are going to be parents who, fir whatever reason, don't know the *unspoken* customs if redshirting in a district, and their kid will wind up at a disadvantage. You can criticize the parents for this but it's the kid who suffers.

Which is why there should be NO UNSPOKEN REDSHIRTING CUSTOMS. This should not be gameable. And relishing the idea that some kids struggle in school because their parents naively thought the published age cutoffs were when you are actually supposed to send your kids, and not just a vague suggestion and all the "smart" parents postpone K a year, is a weird flex.

Have a cut off. Enforce a cut off. Make sure the school work makes sense for kids who meet the cut off. This isn't hard. These are kids. We should all want them ALL to succeed.

Sir. OP has her child in a private school. Do you understand even the tiniest facts about private school admissions?

Number one rule: Private schools admit who they want, when they want. That is literally how it works.

Honestly, you people are just ridiculous.

Ma'am. I wasn't talking about OP or private schools, I was specifically addressing the argument made several times on this thread about public schools that parents should figure out how prevalent redshirting is before enrolling their kid and if they don't then it's all their fault if their kid winds up in a classroom with kids 18 months older. I think this is a ridiculous expectation because many parents are simply not in a position to do that -- they just moved to the district, or this is their first child and they don't know anyone with kids in the schools, or English isn't their first language, or they have other issues that prevent them from being more savvy about school enrollment.

Private schools can do what they want. My argument is that public schools should create clear cut offs and enforce them and there shouldn't be this unofficial system that the most in-the-know parents can game to the benefit of their children, because at the end of the day it's the kids who live with these choices. No child should be punished for having a parent who naively thought that since kindergarten is traditionally for 5 year olds turning 6, and since the district's published guidance indicates it's for 5 year old's turning 6, that kindergarten is for 5 year olds turning 6. That kid shouldn't have to navigate a classroom full of 7 year olds just because his parents are friends with the "right" people who would have warned them.

But do tell me that *I* am ridiculous, since after all without your ad hominem attacks, you'd have to rely on logic and actual argument, areas in which you are lacking.

These are already in place. Someone already posted MCPS, FCPS is on the website that you have the option to delay enrollment for a year, how much more clear do you want them to be?

A grace period of a year is too long. That's not a cut off at all. And it's not clear because a parent who wants their kid to be generally in the same age cohort of most kids in their class literally has to do reconnaissance to figure out what other parents are going to do. Parents don't want their kids to be outliers age-wise. That's normal and should be accommodated.

I would advocate for either a firm cut off, no exceptions unless indicated by a medically documented delay or special need OR a September cut off with a grace period for kids with summer birthdays.

I do not think allowing parents to redshirt children with fall/winter/spring birthdays makes sense and have seen the negative impacts of this policy in the classroom.

So then go to your school board and see how far you get, and stop whining on DCUM.

Also, I simply don’t believe you about the negative impacts. Or maybe I could say the opposite, at the school board meeting: I’ve seen the negative impacts when kids who should have been redshirted are put in classrooms, and think a rigid deadline does a disservice to all children and to the educational environment as a whole. I prefer classrooms where kids whose parents think they needed more time get that time.

See, we can both come up with our anecdotes.

[Anonymous]

Babes, redshirting is viewed by many to be a problem and having a broader range of ages in school is considered a negative by many, including educational experts. Some of you need to step outside your bubble.

Our school district (not in the DC area) adopted a policy in 2011 specifically to address the rampant redshirting that was happening. A lot of it was for athletic reasons -- zealous parents redshirting kids, especially boys, to improve their odds of making high school varsity teams and to give them school cohorts where they would be the oldest/biggest/most developed. But it spread to other people who just started viewing redshirting as a way to give your kid an edge -- academically, socially, you name it. People just wanted their kids to be the oldest. And the thing about redshirting is that when it takes hold among a small group of parents, it spreads. That's why you now see people redshirting May, April, March birthdays. And the occasional winter birthday as well. Parents discover their May birthday is the youngest kid in the grade because all the summer birthdays redshirted, freak out, and then say "oh I should have redshirted Timmy. But you can see how this is just a dog chasing its own tail.

Anyway, our school district's enrollment policy explicitly says, "[we have] determined that an entrance age policy is warranted due to the educational benefits that result from narrowing the range of ages of students in the early grades." The policy makes no allowance for red shirting and says that children become eligible for kindergarten in the year in which they will be 5 by the first day of school. This ensures that the cut off never accidentally makes a 4 year old eligible for K. And the policy further says that your child becomes eligible for 1st grade the year that they turn 6 before the 1st day of school. So if a parent redshirts for K, they are SOL because their kid will be enrolled in 1st the next year if they are 6 on the first day of school.

Also our district has half-day K and the program is genuinely intended to be a nurturing transition year to introduce kids to elementary school, provide some academics but not focus on it, build independence and socio-emotional skills, and bridge the gap between preschool/daycare/home care and elementary. It's age appropriate for 5 year olds. 1st grade is more focused and academic but kids are ready for it.

Some people were bothered by the policy when it happened but I think ultimately it was a source of relief. Because once parents could no longer game the system, there was no longer pressure to game the system. Instead of fighting with each other over whose kids "had" to be youngest in the grade, people just accept that this is the policy and work with schools to ensure that the needs of younger students are met. I think the policy also allows kids to be young and to mature at their own rate instead of feeling pressure to mature because they are in classrooms with significantly older kids. It preserves childhood.

Anyway, please continue with your nasty, petty bickering. It's not productive but it is entertaining. So glad I live where I live and people are sane.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Babes, redshirting is viewed by many to be a problem and having a broader range of ages in school is considered a negative by many, including educational experts. Some of you need to step outside your bubble.

Our school district (not in the DC area) adopted a policy in 2011 specifically to address the rampant redshirting that was happening. A lot of it was for athletic reasons -- zealous parents redshirting kids, especially boys, to improve their odds of making high school varsity teams and to give them school cohorts where they would be the oldest/biggest/most developed. But it spread to other people who just started viewing redshirting as a way to give your kid an edge -- academically, socially, you name it. People just wanted their kids to be the oldest. And the thing about redshirting is that when it takes hold among a small group of parents, it spreads. That's why you now see people redshirting May, April, March birthdays. And the occasional winter birthday as well. Parents discover their May birthday is the youngest kid in the grade because all the summer birthdays redshirted, freak out, and then say "oh I should have redshirted Timmy. But you can see how this is just a dog chasing its own tail.

Anyway, our school district's enrollment policy explicitly says, "[we have] determined that an entrance age policy is warranted due to the educational benefits that result from narrowing the range of ages of students in the early grades." The policy makes no allowance for red shirting and says that children become eligible for kindergarten in the year in which they will be 5 by the first day of school. This ensures that the cut off never accidentally makes a 4 year old eligible for K. And the policy further says that your child becomes eligible for 1st grade the year that they turn 6 before the 1st day of school. So if a parent redshirts for K, they are SOL because their kid will be enrolled in 1st the next year if they are 6 on the first day of school.

Also our district has half-day K and the program is genuinely intended to be a nurturing transition year to introduce kids to elementary school, provide some academics but not focus on it, build independence and socio-emotional skills, and bridge the gap between preschool/daycare/home care and elementary. It's age appropriate for 5 year olds. 1st grade is more focused and academic but kids are ready for it.

Some people were bothered by the policy when it happened but I think ultimately it was a source of relief. Because once parents could no longer game the system, there was no longer pressure to game the system. Instead of fighting with each other over whose kids "had" to be youngest in the grade, people just accept that this is the policy and work with schools to ensure that the needs of younger students are met. I think the policy also allows kids to be young and to mature at their own rate instead of feeling pressure to mature because they are in classrooms with significantly older kids. It preserves childhood.

Anyway, please continue with your nasty, petty bickering. It's not productive but it is entertaining. So glad I live where I live and people are sane.

Citation needed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Babes, redshirting is viewed by many to be a problem and having a broader range of ages in school is considered a negative by many, including educational experts. Some of you need to step outside your bubble.

Our school district (not in the DC area) adopted a policy in 2011 specifically to address the rampant redshirting that was happening. A lot of it was for athletic reasons -- zealous parents redshirting kids, especially boys, to improve their odds of making high school varsity teams and to give them school cohorts where they would be the oldest/biggest/most developed. But it spread to other people who just started viewing redshirting as a way to give your kid an edge -- academically, socially, you name it. People just wanted their kids to be the oldest. And the thing about redshirting is that when it takes hold among a small group of parents, it spreads. That's why you now see people redshirting May, April, March birthdays. And the occasional winter birthday as well. Parents discover their May birthday is the youngest kid in the grade because all the summer birthdays redshirted, freak out, and then say "oh I should have redshirted Timmy. But you can see how this is just a dog chasing its own tail.

Anyway, our school district's enrollment policy explicitly says, "[we have] determined that an entrance age policy is warranted due to the educational benefits that result from narrowing the range of ages of students in the early grades." The policy makes no allowance for red shirting and says that children become eligible for kindergarten in the year in which they will be 5 by the first day of school. This ensures that the cut off never accidentally makes a 4 year old eligible for K. And the policy further says that your child becomes eligible for 1st grade the year that they turn 6 before the 1st day of school. So if a parent redshirts for K, they are SOL because their kid will be enrolled in 1st the next year if they are 6 on the first day of school.

Also our district has half-day K and the program is genuinely intended to be a nurturing transition year to introduce kids to elementary school, provide some academics but not focus on it, build independence and socio-emotional skills, and bridge the gap between preschool/daycare/home care and elementary. It's age appropriate for 5 year olds. 1st grade is more focused and academic but kids are ready for it.

Some people were bothered by the policy when it happened but I think ultimately it was a source of relief. Because once parents could no longer game the system, there was no longer pressure to game the system. Instead of fighting with each other over whose kids "had" to be youngest in the grade, people just accept that this is the policy and work with schools to ensure that the needs of younger students are met. I think the policy also allows kids to be young and to mature at their own rate instead of feeling pressure to mature because they are in classrooms with significantly older kids. It preserves childhood.

Anyway, please continue with your nasty, petty bickering. It's not productive but it is entertaining. So glad I live where I live and people are sane.

In your imagination, maybe? The bubble is the DCUM’s weird anti-redshirters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Babes, redshirting is viewed by many to be a problem and having a broader range of ages in school is considered a negative by many, including educational experts. Some of you need to step outside your bubble.

Our school district (not in the DC area) adopted a policy in 2011 specifically to address the rampant redshirting that was happening. A lot of it was for athletic reasons -- zealous parents redshirting kids, especially boys, to improve their odds of making high school varsity teams and to give them school cohorts where they would be the oldest/biggest/most developed. But it spread to other people who just started viewing redshirting as a way to give your kid an edge -- academically, socially, you name it. People just wanted their kids to be the oldest. And the thing about redshirting is that when it takes hold among a small group of parents, it spreads. That's why you now see people redshirting May, April, March birthdays. And the occasional winter birthday as well. Parents discover their May birthday is the youngest kid in the grade because all the summer birthdays redshirted, freak out, and then say "oh I should have redshirted Timmy. But you can see how this is just a dog chasing its own tail.

Anyway, our school district's enrollment policy explicitly says, "[we have] determined that an entrance age policy is warranted due to the educational benefits that result from narrowing the range of ages of students in the early grades." The policy makes no allowance for red shirting and says that children become eligible for kindergarten in the year in which they will be 5 by the first day of school. This ensures that the cut off never accidentally makes a 4 year old eligible for K. And the policy further says that your child becomes eligible for 1st grade the year that they turn 6 before the 1st day of school. So if a parent redshirts for K, they are SOL because their kid will be enrolled in 1st the next year if they are 6 on the first day of school.

Also our district has half-day K and the program is genuinely intended to be a nurturing transition year to introduce kids to elementary school, provide some academics but not focus on it, build independence and socio-emotional skills, and bridge the gap between preschool/daycare/home care and elementary. It's age appropriate for 5 year olds. 1st grade is more focused and academic but kids are ready for it.

Some people were bothered by the policy when it happened but I think ultimately it was a source of relief. Because once parents could no longer game the system, there was no longer pressure to game the system. Instead of fighting with each other over whose kids "had" to be youngest in the grade, people just accept that this is the policy and work with schools to ensure that the needs of younger students are met. I think the policy also allows kids to be young and to mature at their own rate instead of feeling pressure to mature because they are in classrooms with significantly older kids. It preserves childhood.

Anyway, please continue with your nasty, petty bickering. It's not productive but it is entertaining. So glad I live where I live and people are sane.

What do you mean “accidentally”?

FCPS starts school in mid August. Their cutoff is Sept 30. August is the highest birth rate month in the calendar. Half of August birthdays and all of September birthdays are four when they start kindergarten if they go “on time”.

Why do you think this is an accident?

[Anonymous]

Still chortling over how OP is complaining about a private school. 🤣

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Babes, redshirting is viewed by many to be a problem and having a broader range of ages in school is considered a negative by many, including educational experts. Some of you need to step outside your bubble.

Our school district (not in the DC area) adopted a policy in 2011 specifically to address the rampant redshirting that was happening. A lot of it was for athletic reasons -- zealous parents redshirting kids, especially boys, to improve their odds of making high school varsity teams and to give them school cohorts where they would be the oldest/biggest/most developed. But it spread to other people who just started viewing redshirting as a way to give your kid an edge -- academically, socially, you name it. People just wanted their kids to be the oldest. And the thing about redshirting is that when it takes hold among a small group of parents, it spreads. That's why you now see people redshirting May, April, March birthdays. And the occasional winter birthday as well. Parents discover their May birthday is the youngest kid in the grade because all the summer birthdays redshirted, freak out, and then say "oh I should have redshirted Timmy. But you can see how this is just a dog chasing its own tail.

Anyway, our school district's enrollment policy explicitly says, "[we have] determined that an entrance age policy is warranted due to the educational benefits that result from narrowing the range of ages of students in the early grades." The policy makes no allowance for red shirting and says that children become eligible for kindergarten in the year in which they will be 5 by the first day of school. This ensures that the cut off never accidentally makes a 4 year old eligible for K. And the policy further says that your child becomes eligible for 1st grade the year that they turn 6 before the 1st day of school. So if a parent redshirts for K, they are SOL because their kid will be enrolled in 1st the next year if they are 6 on the first day of school.

Also our district has half-day K and the program is genuinely intended to be a nurturing transition year to introduce kids to elementary school, provide some academics but not focus on it, build independence and socio-emotional skills, and bridge the gap between preschool/daycare/home care and elementary. It's age appropriate for 5 year olds. 1st grade is more focused and academic but kids are ready for it.

Some people were bothered by the policy when it happened but I think ultimately it was a source of relief. Because once parents could no longer game the system, there was no longer pressure to game the system. Instead of fighting with each other over whose kids "had" to be youngest in the grade, people just accept that this is the policy and work with schools to ensure that the needs of younger students are met. I think the policy also allows kids to be young and to mature at their own rate instead of feeling pressure to mature because they are in classrooms with significantly older kids. It preserves childhood.

Anyway, please continue with your nasty, petty bickering. It's not productive but it is entertaining. So glad I live where I live and people are sane.

Citation needed.

https://www.cga.ct.gov/2011/rpt/2011-R-0024.htm#:~:text=This%20initial%20advantage%20persisted%20during%20the%20first,than%20younger%20students%20in%20the%20same%20class.

https://www.ppic.org/wp-content/uploads/content/other/508JCOP_technical_appendix.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Babes, redshirting is viewed by many to be a problem and having a broader range of ages in school is considered a negative by many, including educational experts. Some of you need to step outside your bubble.

Our school district (not in the DC area) adopted a policy in 2011 specifically to address the rampant redshirting that was happening. A lot of it was for athletic reasons -- zealous parents redshirting kids, especially boys, to improve their odds of making high school varsity teams and to give them school cohorts where they would be the oldest/biggest/most developed. But it spread to other people who just started viewing redshirting as a way to give your kid an edge -- academically, socially, you name it. People just wanted their kids to be the oldest. And the thing about redshirting is that when it takes hold among a small group of parents, it spreads. That's why you now see people redshirting May, April, March birthdays. And the occasional winter birthday as well. Parents discover their May birthday is the youngest kid in the grade because all the summer birthdays redshirted, freak out, and then say "oh I should have redshirted Timmy. But you can see how this is just a dog chasing its own tail.

Anyway, our school district's enrollment policy explicitly says, "[we have] determined that an entrance age policy is warranted due to the educational benefits that result from narrowing the range of ages of students in the early grades." The policy makes no allowance for red shirting and says that children become eligible for kindergarten in the year in which they will be 5 by the first day of school. This ensures that the cut off never accidentally makes a 4 year old eligible for K. And the policy further says that your child becomes eligible for 1st grade the year that they turn 6 before the 1st day of school. So if a parent redshirts for K, they are SOL because their kid will be enrolled in 1st the next year if they are 6 on the first day of school.

Also our district has half-day K and the program is genuinely intended to be a nurturing transition year to introduce kids to elementary school, provide some academics but not focus on it, build independence and socio-emotional skills, and bridge the gap between preschool/daycare/home care and elementary. It's age appropriate for 5 year olds. 1st grade is more focused and academic but kids are ready for it.

Some people were bothered by the policy when it happened but I think ultimately it was a source of relief. Because once parents could no longer game the system, there was no longer pressure to game the system. Instead of fighting with each other over whose kids "had" to be youngest in the grade, people just accept that this is the policy and work with schools to ensure that the needs of younger students are met. I think the policy also allows kids to be young and to mature at their own rate instead of feeling pressure to mature because they are in classrooms with significantly older kids. It preserves childhood.

Anyway, please continue with your nasty, petty bickering. It's not productive but it is entertaining. So glad I live where I live and people are sane.

In your imagination, maybe? The bubble is the DCUM’s weird anti-redshirters.

I am literally telling you that redshirting was deemed such a problem in the school district where I live that they adopted a new enrollment policy to effectively ban it. You would consider us "anti-redshirters" but there are thousands of us and our objections changed policy in our district. Even people who were proponents of redshirting before the new policy now argue that it's better since it went into effect -- better for kids and better for families.

I feel for the people in the DC area trying to make common sense arguments about this issue and facing people like you who refuse to even listen to the arguments against.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Public schools aren’t retaining anyone because that costs $$$. I’ve only heard of retention being offered when a kid missed a lot of a grade due to something like a serious medical issue, or at the end of the Covid school years - 2019-20 or 2020-21 - if a kid didn’t progress during the closures. My neighbor had a young for grade 1st grader in 20-21 and FCPS did offer to let her repeat 1st in person.

But let this thread be a heads up to everyone: redshirting is common, perhaps even expected, in private schools, especially for the younger for grade kids. So plan accordingly.

+1, and I would say it’s increasingly common in public school among parents who read the data on developmentally appropriate settings for 4-5. So, assume if you send a four year old they’ll be youngest by a year+, and an early five year old by a year. None of this is secret, or unavailable information to you.

Since most public schools do an age cut off around September 1st, the number of kids attending K at age 4 is very small (and even people who complain about excessive redshirting don't complain about redshirting a kid who would be 4 during the "normal" cut off). In NY (which is the only place with a midyear cut off that results in a lot of 4 year olds being eligible for K) it's common for people to redshirt those kids and no one complains about it.

The only redshirting people complain about is when people start redshirting kids who would be well over 5 when starting K but they hold them back anyway. Yes, in some privates that's common place, but the school generally encourages it and everyone has a chance to do it -- they like having an older class of K students and often they will strongly encourage redshirting summer or late spring birthdays. Some schools even offer a transitional year for young K students before taking the regular K class, so you still wind up with a fairly age-homogenous class.

But in public that's not the case, and when some parents start deciding their April or May birthday kid needs another year, it can leave other parents stuck with the consequences of those actions without warning. No one is going to get mad that a parent redshirted so their kid could start K at 5, but when you see kids starting K at 6 and a half, it becomes an issue.

Please yell at me now and tell me I'm a "crazy anti-redshirter" for agreeing this specific issue is a problem.

As someone with a young for grade kid, I think it is absolutely insane to consider this a problem whatsoever, and really makes you sound like someone who has no experience with any real problems in life.

My kid with an August birthday who I sent on time (she started K at 5 but was among the youngest in her grade) was viciously bullied by a redshirted child in 1st grade. My kid was 6 years old for the entirety of 1st grade. The bullying child turned 8 in September and was signficantly bigger and taller. Redshirting played a major role in the bullying because while this one child was the leader, there were many older kids in the classroom due to redshirting and when the bully would attack/provoke my kid, she'd cry, and then all the older kids would round on her and call her a baby and tease her for being small and young (she is average height for her age).

I had no idea how prevalent redshirting was when I enrolled my kid in K. She was academically and socially ready for a K classroom full of 5 and 6 year old children. In fact she continues to be at the top of her grade academically and she is well liked by teachers for being a good listener who follows directions and is helpful and kind in the classroom (something that apparently the extra years of preschool or staying home did not help instill in these redshirted kids who are merely bigger and older, not more mature).

I absolutely resent that my child's classroom environment has been dominated by older children who I think should have spent their 5/6 year in K learning out to function in elementary school, but instead spent it elsewhere and arrived at elementary school with their own ideas about how school should work. I resent how common bullying and relational aggression are at the school because of these older-but-less-mature kids.

Call me a crazy anti-redshirted if you want. I think redshirting sucks. Kids should start school at the same age so that they learn the same skills and are generally at the same developmental level. Kids with developmental delays can/should be held back to accommodate their delays, but it shouldn't be at the parents' discretion.

We will be moving school districts before these older kids hit puberty in 3rd grade and we have to deal with that.

As a parent who doesn't care about redshirting one way or another (and has both middle-of-age-for grade and young-for-grade kids, none old-for-grade): the bullying isn't because your kid is small. Bullies will find literally anything to gang up on kids about. One of my kids was bulled for not watching Spongebob Squarepants in a late elementary grade. Does that make sense as a thing to mock a kid over? No. But my kid was a prickly and kind of hard-to-get-to-know kid, so of course they were a target. The actual thing to make fun of was incidental to the act of piling on.

And it's possible (probable?) this older kid is lashing out because:
- they do have delays and you have no idea and the delays are social
- they feel embarassed about your kid doing as well when they are so much older.

PP here. Of course bullying can happen for a whole variety of reasons.

But at my kid's specific school, in specific classrooms where there are a large percent of redshirted kids including one that was significantly older, the bullying was closely related to having a cohort of older, bigger, unsocialized kids. My DD was not the only child targeted, but all the children who were bullied were "on time" kids who were on the younger end of normal for the grade. All the bullies were the oldest kids in class.

Also, it's not just about the age difference. It's also that these redshirted kids were not socialized into elementary school when they were young enough for it help. They arrived at K too old and less malleable. In my child's 1st grade class, those older kids RAN the classroom. This year my kid is in 2nd and due to the bullying issues last year, my kid and others who were targeted are in a classroom without any of the much older kids. The classroom is significantly better, with less conflict and fewer behavioral issues.

I don't have any issue with moderate redshirting for kids with summer birthdays. I don't think you should be allowed to redshirt a kid with a birthday during the school year unless there is a clear reason why delaying kindergarten will help. And I actually think a lot of developmental delays might be made worse by redshirting unless you can show the kids are going to get services to improve the situation. Perhaps some of these delays would be best addressed by having the kid in a classroom with other kids and receiving services through the school.

I honestly do not understand why you continue to keep your child in a school where your DC experiences significant bullying and you believe the classroom activities and level are so wildly inappropriate. It seems weird to me.

You seem very ignorant of the reality that most parents experience. Most parents can’t just switch schools out of the blue.

Right. Which leads parents to make careful decisions about when their kids start school. For example— not sending a kid who may struggle to kindergarten too early.

Or, send our kid and get them the help they need so they don’t struggle.

What "help" do you recommend?

IEP’s. Soooo many kids have them. Professional help often paid for by the school district. I’ve see kids get services for adhd, dyslexia, occupational therapy… I think many people like you overestimate your ability and underestimate the ability of professionals with undergrad and grad degrees in education and therapy.

IEPs are for children with disabilities. You have to qualify for them. You can't just "get an IEP."

- Professional with an undergrad and grad degree in education and psychology.

Then what is the issue you feel that you can’t send a 5 to Kinder? I’m telling you, you’re making it something it’s not. It’s not that hard. Trust me.

Some kids just need a bit more time. That’s the help. It’s so weird you can’t understand that. Professionals and parents agree. Busy bodies with faux concerns about other people’s children don’t get an opinion.

No, they don’t. They need to be in school with age appropriate peers

Could you please share the data you’re sourcing this from? That age-identical classrooms are critical to children’s success? Moreso than the developmental appropriateness of the environment? Because candidly I think you’re making this up as you go along.

My four year old and her seven year old cousin are best friends. It’s amazing to see how she brings out leadership and compassion in her older cousin and how her cousin brings out courage and creativity in her.

The discussion is about peers and a child held back isn't necessarily going to be a leader just because they are older. It harms everyone and when you get to HS, do you want your 14 year old in classes with 19-20 year olds as that is whats happening.

You’re right, a child who is redshirted isn’t necessarily going to be a leader and— parents who are redshirting aren’t always doing it for that reason anyway. So don’t worry about the redshirted kids.

You seem to be suggesting a freshman in high school could be taking classes with a senior— while the 20 y/o would be shockingly rare, it’s not more worrying to have a 19 than an 18 y/o senior. What is your panic about here?

It’s it rare at all. Electives, gym, health ed and math are always mixed. My 13-14 year old freshman had three classes with seniors freshman year. An elective that was auditioned in, pe and math.

Ok so please explain your anxiety around a 14 year old being in a class with a 19 year old that doesn’t exist for an 18 year old?

.

19 year olds in high school isn’t redshirting. Those are kids who failed a year, had transfer issues, are foreign students who need more time for the language, were homeschooled or have GED and need the credit etc etc. It happens rarely, but that won’t be solved by banning redshirting. Some areas have specific adult only high schools for ages 18 plus - maybe advocate for that if it’s an issue in your area.

These kids were held back. Except the fall kids who missed the deadline. Let’s call it what it is. It’s a huge issue when these adults are with young teens.

Nonsense. I’m around a ton of teens. This is 100% a non-issue.

The hyperbole from the anti-redshirt posters is so ridiculous. It’s like none of you have contact with any actual teens.

The redshirted kids at my child's middle school who all started puberty a grade earlier than they would have had they started on time absolutely changed the culture if the school and the experience for the non-redshirted kids, for the worse.

I cannot fathom why anyone who has seen a kid through puberty would be like "oh yeah, it would be great to have an age spread of 18 months in 6th and 7th grade. Super cool." It's already a hard time and it's already harder for the kids who start puberty early or late, but now you want to stretch it out even more? Whyyyyyyyyy? It makes no sense.

I am fine if K is for 6/7 year olds. Just make it official and start school later. But this unofficial system where K is for 4-7 yr olds, and people are supposed to case the joint in advance to guess where in that age spread to send their kid? That's dumb. Just pick an age and have everyone send their kid when they hit that age.

Typical onset of puberty for girls is between 8 and 13 years old. For boys, it’s between 9-14 years old. That’s already a 5-year spread within the realm of completely normal.

You need to calm down.

1) Onset is not not equally distributed along those ranges.

2) Redshirting of non-summer birthdays makes the range even wider, which is a substantial issue. It forces families of on time kids to deal with puberty issues a year earlier than even the earliest year they would otherwise deal with it.

3) I feel very calm, thank you -- my kids are through this. Parents choosing to redshirt have not. They are making a choice based on a perceived disadvantage in kindergarten, not understanding the negative impact 4-6 years later. Both for their kid and dir peers.

There is absolutely no evidence for the bolded statement. You don’t understand statistics.

You don't need evidence for basic math.

Redshirting expands the range if ages in one grade. You can argue whether that's a good thing or a bad thing or a neutral thing. But you can't argue it's not a thing.

Without redshirting, the typical 6th grade class would have 11 year olds turning 12, either during the school year or in the summer following. With redshirting, it will have a mix of 11 and 12 year olds at the beginning of the year, and a mix of 12 and 13 year olds at the end PLUS some non-redshirted summer birthdays who are still 11.

Again, you can argue that's not a big deal or that it only amounts to a few extra minutes months, but mathematically, redshirting expands the age range for the grade. Which means, yes, it expands the range of puberty onset.

These are just facts.

That applies equally to the Summer birthdays you’re good with redshirting.

I'm not advocating for any policy or another.

Yes, redshirting summer birthdays expands the age range of a grade. But by less. If redshirting is restricted to summer birthdays, you still get a cohort of kids who are 11/12 in 6th. But some kids will start the year at 12+, instead of starting at 11 and turning 12 during the year. So an expansion, yes, though a more minor one. And say only late summer birthdays are redshirted-- this might expand the range by only a week or two.

That is different than a situation where some parents are redshirting kids with spring birthdays, which will expand the range by 4-6 months.

Two weeks is a fraction of 6 months, so it is not unreasonable for a person to argue that redshirting of kids with birthdays close to the cut off should be allowed, but not kids with birthdays far from the cut off.

Except you know more children are born in August/July/September so the impact isn’t proportionally much smaller.

The thing that makes it unreasonable to argue that redshirting of a September birthday is fine and an October birthday isn’t is that the rules say both are equally permitted and no one on DCUM makes the rules. No schools are trying to limit the practice (private schools outright encourage it) and no lawmaker is going to support giving a right to a September parent that an October parent is denied. So all the anti-redshirt hysteria is just screaming into the internet void that other parents are exercising their prerogatives in a way that OP and her comrades didn’t.

You have to look at the cut off dates. This is a DC/MD/VA board that recently has people from all over but in DC the cut off is 9/30, MD 9/1, and VA 9/30. So, in MD, a September kid can test in from 9/1-10/15 but because the school are so overcrowded, many refuse or find bogus reasons to deny a child, which happened to so we had to go private. Only a few states allow an October kid so that's a mute point.

Privates encourage it due to lack of space and its EASIER for them. Its far easier teaching a 6 year old reading or prereading than a 5 year old who isn't. However, what is also missing is these play based preschools and parents don't work with their kids to get them ready and then blame the child for not being ready and except for documented delays, someone failed this child if they aren't ready or someone is lying. At 5, there should be no expectecations. K is for learning all that.

But preschool should be play based. 3 and 4 year olds should not be doing worksheets at preschool. Kindergarten *should* be that bridge year for introduction to learning - and it used to be- but it’s not anymore. That’s a huge part of the problem; kindergarten expectations are not aligned with the development of 4 turning 5 year olds/very recently turned 5 year olds so those parents of younger kids need to choose if they’re going to send their kids young or at 5 going on 6/early 6 instead.

It should be a mix of things but have academics to prepare kids for school. This is why kids are not ready. K is not a bridge. It’s school. My younger kid with delays did fine as they were prepared for it. This is a parenting and preschool issue.

My experience is that it was a kindergarten issue. My kid had all the academic skills (and then some) coming out of a well respected preschool, but kindergarten was far too much seat time and not enough play. The kids on the older end were mostly okay, but the younger cohort were all really stressed by the environment.

Because it’s the wrong environment.

When we were deciding what to do with our Sept birthday we consulted a friend who happens to be a pediatric psychology chair at a prominent university. I had barely asked the question when she asked how many quality studies I had seen suggesting desk-based work was appropriate for 4-5 year olds— and informed me was that none exist. This isn’t backed up by the data, but environments that would be supported by the data cost money.

That means nothing.