Lost, considering returning to Catholicism despite disagreeing with so much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here - again thank you for all this valuable discussion. I was expecting to be ridiculed for my line of thinking and instead I feel not like an outsider for having my thoughts. Thank you for the acceptance and helpful discussion!!!

Any thoughts yo can share with us on what you might do?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who feel they disagree with Church teachings sometimes do not fully understand those teachings or the basis for them. They may see only the “headlines” but might never have been exposed to the “body” of the story. Catholic teaching is the product of millennia of divine revelation, lived experience and philosophical and theological reflection by some of the greatest minds in human history. It has been and is often mis-taught, misrepresented and distorted, both in the Church and especially in the media.

OP, I would urge you to make your return with an open mind and heart. Make an appointment with the priest and raise your concerns, one at a time. Do the reading the priest suggests. If he can’t help you, ask for a referral to someone more knowledgeable and/or do the research on your own. If you’d like, you could begin with the Catechism of the Catholic Church (a book) and branch out from there. The Catechism is dense but sets forth a great deal of background for the Church teachings, typically with reference to source documents including Scripture.

Above all, pray for light and understanding. Avoid being distracted by things that do not directly concern you in your specific circumstances. It sometimes is interesting and stimulating to discuss and debate “issues,” but the goal of Faith is a living relationship with God in your life, in your circumstances, so that divine love can fill you and flow out of you to others. Faith is far more a matter of the heart than of intellect, but a well trained intellect can help guide the heart.

I wish you the best.

Meh. I went to Catholic schools from ES through college. I've taken lots of classes on theology, doctrine, and Church history. And I'm Episcopalian now. And the pews are full of former Catholics who like the ritual, but also appreciate the focus on social justice.

There is no such thing as a former Catholic. There are lapsed Catholics and apostate Catholics, but Catholic baptism incorporates a person eternally into the Catholic Church.

No organization on earth has done or does as much for “social justice” (or more properly charity, in the sense of self giving love) than the Catholic Church.

Episcopal ritual is a show. Nothing more. It focuses on externals to delight the senses. It cannot confer grace because nothing sacramental occurs.

Oh, shut up. You’re disgusting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP seriously you believe in everything Catholics do not.

Pro Choice
Gay marriage
Divorce

Why would you want to be part of something that condones chiid abusers and is against the things you believe in?

How about Unitarian? Or Episcopalian?.

Millions or catholics are pro choice, pro gay marriage, fine with divorce, think women should be priests and church leaders, etc.

That's like wanting to play soccer with your hands. That's not the game, go play basketball.

Seriously, grow up. The Catholic Church is the “one true church” only to CATHOLICS.

Stop spouting your opinion as fact. It’s people like you who drive people like OP away from the Catholic Church.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP seriously you believe in everything Catholics do not.

Pro Choice
Gay marriage
Divorce

Why would you want to be part of something that condones chiid abusers and is against the things you believe in?

How about Unitarian? Or Episcopalian?.

Millions or catholics are pro choice, pro gay marriage, fine with divorce, think women should be priests and church leaders, etc.

That's like wanting to play soccer with your hands. That's not the game, go play basketball.

Yup. Women arent priests

They sure are, and we’re all laughing at how much that frosts your muffins.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am Catholic. My husband was raised Lutheran, and we looked at several churches before coming back to Catholicism.

I also enjoy the quiet and contemplative mass. Despite the reputation to the contrary, I don’t feel that I am told what to believe about social and political
topics during Catholic mass. I also feel that there is definitely room to disagree and debate the tenents of Catholicism. My husband went through RCIA, and he was very skeptical and had a lot of questions. I think that at times he was frustrated that he got less answers than he wanted, but I don’t think that I have ever heard anyone discouraged from questioning.

I hope that you consider returning, op. I think you will find that you see some things differently with adult eyes.

It may not be the "tenants of Catholicism" that bother OP so much, but rather the child sex abuse.

The same tired refrain, over and over, with no acknowledgement of the age of many of the accusations; the frequent absence of any corroboration beyond the word of the accuser, often against a dead person; the identical issues in other institutions including other churches and governmental entities; the steps the Church has taken to correct things; or the fact that sex abuse claims against the Church long ago became an industry because of the Church’s deep pockets, institutional size and presence, and reticence to defend even obviously false claims. Not to mention the political value of the scarlet letter to distract from the truth of the Church’s teaching on certain issues, particularly the right to life.

Wow -- talk about "the same tired refrain"!

Exactly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well, OP -- you can see that you are a hot property here on DCUM, with Catholics trying to keep you (in their customary guilt-trippy kind of way) and people of other religions hoping to recruit you.

I'd say listen to the people who describe religions or churches that seem to meet your wants and needs, knowing that they are changeable and that you can change with them

Nope. I’m one of the Episcopalians here. I responded because OP asked for input and if anyone else had felt this way, so I gave my story for her consideration.

My church doesn’t “recruit” and neither do I. It’s not like I’m trying to win the toaster oven or something. I found a place where, from OP’s post, she might like, so I suggested it. We’re not the hysterical frothing Catholic on this board blathering on ad nauseum about how his (I’d bet good money it’s a him, though they’ll probably deny it, because anonymity) church is the only real ones, OMG WOMEN AREN’T PRIESTS!!! and shhhh, we don’t talk about that multi decade sex abuse scandal that was SUPER overblown by the evil, evil, left wing media.

Good luck to you, OP. Wherever it is, I hope you find a church or temple that aligns with your principles where you feel at home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP seriously you believe in everything Catholics do not.

Pro Choice
Gay marriage
Divorce

Why would you want to be part of something that condones chiid abusers and is against the things you believe in?

How about Unitarian? Or Episcopalian?.

Perhaps the OP has other beliefs the correspond with the church.
The core social values in Catholicism are:

1). Respect for life and dignity of all people.
2) Call to participate in family and community
3). Fundamental rights to life and human decency coupled with responsibility to provide those things to others.
4). Preferential treatment for the poor and vulnerable
5) Dignity and rights of workers
6). Care of the planet.
7). The promotion of justice and peace.

1) Then why do they lobby congress to make lenient laws for sexual abuse
2) Calls to whom? not everybody, they are not inclusive
3) Yet they pay for politicians that create laws against that.
4) Preferential? No, they lobby for low riches for the rich and less resources for the poor and mentally ill.
6) Have you seen the parking lot of a Catholic church?
7) No they lobby for laws that protect pedophiles.

This is such an interesting perspective. I'm sorry that you feel this way about the church or feel that these things are advocated within the Church.

I can tell you that while no one is perfect, if you look through the lives of the saints and other holy people within the Catholic church, the virtues and values that are lauded are those that I listed above.

Saint Teresa of Calcutta
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-teresa-of-calcutta/

Saint Dulce of the Poor
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-maria-rita-lopes-pontes-de-souza-brito/

Venerable Marcello Labor
https://catholicsaints.info/venerable-marcello-labor/

Saint Thérèse of Lisieux (the little flower)
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-therese-of-lisieux/


There are many, many more examples.
These are the people that we try to use as examples to lead us in our own lives here on earth. Of course, most of us fall far short.

I don’t feel that way. It’s a fact. You are supporting a corrupt organization if you support the Catholic Church.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP seriously you believe in everything Catholics do not.

Pro Choice
Gay marriage
Divorce

Why would you want to be part of something that condones chiid abusers and is against the things you believe in?

How about Unitarian? Or Episcopalian?.

Perhaps the OP has other beliefs the correspond with the church.
The core social values in Catholicism are:

1). Respect for life and dignity of all people.
2) Call to participate in family and community
3). Fundamental rights to life and human decency coupled with responsibility to provide those things to others.
4). Preferential treatment for the poor and vulnerable
5) Dignity and rights of workers
6). Care of the planet.
7). The promotion of justice and peace.

1) Then why do they lobby congress to make lenient laws for sexual abuse
2) Calls to whom? not everybody, they are not inclusive
3) Yet they pay for politicians that create laws against that.
4) Preferential? No, they lobby for low riches for the rich and less resources for the poor and mentally ill.
6) Have you seen the parking lot of a Catholic church?
7) No they lobby for laws that protect pedophiles.

This is such an interesting perspective. I'm sorry that you feel this way about the church or feel that these things are advocated within the Church.

I can tell you that while no one is perfect, if you look through the lives of the saints and other holy people within the Catholic church, the virtues and values that are lauded are those that I listed above.

Saint Teresa of Calcutta
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-teresa-of-calcutta/

Saint Dulce of the Poor
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-maria-rita-lopes-pontes-de-souza-brito/

Venerable Marcello Labor
https://catholicsaints.info/venerable-marcello-labor/

Saint Thérèse of Lisieux (the little flower)
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-therese-of-lisieux/


There are many, many more examples.
These are the people that we try to use as examples to lead us in our own lives here on earth. Of course, most of us fall far short.

I don’t feel that way. It’s a fact. You are supporting a corrupt organization if you support the Catholic Church.

Wow. Okay. Clearly you don’t think these are good people worth emulating. If you don’t feel that Dr. Marcello Labor or Mother Teresa have done anything in their lives worth emulating, despite their corruption and sins, then I have to ask what you mean by believing in social justice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP seriously you believe in everything Catholics do not.

Pro Choice
Gay marriage
Divorce

Why would you want to be part of something that condones chiid abusers and is against the things you believe in?

How about Unitarian? Or Episcopalian?.

Perhaps the OP has other beliefs the correspond with the church.
The core social values in Catholicism are:

1). Respect for life and dignity of all people.
2) Call to participate in family and community
3). Fundamental rights to life and human decency coupled with responsibility to provide those things to others.
4). Preferential treatment for the poor and vulnerable
5) Dignity and rights of workers
6). Care of the planet.
7). The promotion of justice and peace.

1) Then why do they lobby congress to make lenient laws for sexual abuse
2) Calls to whom? not everybody, they are not inclusive
3) Yet they pay for politicians that create laws against that.
4) Preferential? No, they lobby for low riches for the rich and less resources for the poor and mentally ill.
6) Have you seen the parking lot of a Catholic church?
7) No they lobby for laws that protect pedophiles.

This is such an interesting perspective. I'm sorry that you feel this way about the church or feel that these things are advocated within the Church.

I can tell you that while no one is perfect, if you look through the lives of the saints and other holy people within the Catholic church, the virtues and values that are lauded are those that I listed above.

Saint Teresa of Calcutta
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-teresa-of-calcutta/

Saint Dulce of the Poor
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-maria-rita-lopes-pontes-de-souza-brito/

Venerable Marcello Labor
https://catholicsaints.info/venerable-marcello-labor/

Saint Thérèse of Lisieux (the little flower)
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-therese-of-lisieux/


There are many, many more examples.
These are the people that we try to use as examples to lead us in our own lives here on earth. Of course, most of us fall far short.

I don’t feel that way. It’s a fact. You are supporting a corrupt organization if you support the Catholic Church.

Wow. Okay. Clearly you don’t think these are good people worth emulating. If you don’t feel that Dr. Marcello Labor or Mother Teresa have done anything in their lives worth emulating, despite their corruption and sins, then I have to ask what you mean by believing in social justice.

There were good germans during WWII, but Germany was bad. Good people were not lining up for German citizenship during the war. Get it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP seriously you believe in everything Catholics do not.

Pro Choice
Gay marriage
Divorce

Why would you want to be part of something that condones chiid abusers and is against the things you believe in?

How about Unitarian? Or Episcopalian?.

Perhaps the OP has other beliefs the correspond with the church.
The core social values in Catholicism are:

1). Respect for life and dignity of all people.
2) Call to participate in family and community
3). Fundamental rights to life and human decency coupled with responsibility to provide those things to others.
4). Preferential treatment for the poor and vulnerable
5) Dignity and rights of workers
6). Care of the planet.
7). The promotion of justice and peace.

1) Then why do they lobby congress to make lenient laws for sexual abuse
2) Calls to whom? not everybody, they are not inclusive
3) Yet they pay for politicians that create laws against that.
4) Preferential? No, they lobby for low riches for the rich and less resources for the poor and mentally ill.
6) Have you seen the parking lot of a Catholic church?
7) No they lobby for laws that protect pedophiles.

This is such an interesting perspective. I'm sorry that you feel this way about the church or feel that these things are advocated within the Church.

I can tell you that while no one is perfect, if you look through the lives of the saints and other holy people within the Catholic church, the virtues and values that are lauded are those that I listed above.

Saint Teresa of Calcutta
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-teresa-of-calcutta/

Saint Dulce of the Poor
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-maria-rita-lopes-pontes-de-souza-brito/

Venerable Marcello Labor
https://catholicsaints.info/venerable-marcello-labor/

Saint Thérèse of Lisieux (the little flower)
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-therese-of-lisieux/


There are many, many more examples.
These are the people that we try to use as examples to lead us in our own lives here on earth. Of course, most of us fall far short.

I don’t feel that way. It’s a fact. You are supporting a corrupt organization if you support the Catholic Church.

The unique example of a “corrupt organization,” yes? No other organization with any issues? No other corruption? No public entities with problems? Nope. Just the Catholics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well, OP -- you can see that you are a hot property here on DCUM, with Catholics trying to keep you (in their customary guilt-trippy kind of way) and people of other religions hoping to recruit you.

I'd say listen to the people who describe religions or churches that seem to meet your wants and needs, knowing that they are changeable and that you can change with them

Nope. I’m one of the Episcopalians here. I responded because OP asked for input and if anyone else had felt this way, so I gave my story for her consideration.

My church doesn’t “recruit” and neither do I. It’s not like I’m trying to win the toaster oven or something. I found a place where, from OP’s post, she might like, so I suggested it. We’re not the hysterical frothing Catholic on this board blathering on ad nauseum about how his (I’d bet good money it’s a him, though they’ll probably deny it, because anonymity) church is the only real ones, OMG WOMEN AREN’T PRIESTS!!! and shhhh, we don’t talk about that multi decade sex abuse scandal that was SUPER overblown by the evil, evil, left wing media.

Good luck to you, OP. Wherever it is, I hope you find a church or temple that aligns with your principles where you feel at home.

pp seems to fit this description, cited above "people who describe religions or churches that seem to meet your wants and needs, knowing that they are changeable and that you can change with them"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP seriously you believe in everything Catholics do not.

Pro Choice
Gay marriage
Divorce

Why would you want to be part of something that condones chiid abusers and is against the things you believe in?

How about Unitarian? Or Episcopalian?.

Perhaps the OP has other beliefs the correspond with the church.
The core social values in Catholicism are:

1). Respect for life and dignity of all people.
2) Call to participate in family and community
3). Fundamental rights to life and human decency coupled with responsibility to provide those things to others.
4). Preferential treatment for the poor and vulnerable
5) Dignity and rights of workers
6). Care of the planet.
7). The promotion of justice and peace.

1) Then why do they lobby congress to make lenient laws for sexual abuse
2) Calls to whom? not everybody, they are not inclusive
3) Yet they pay for politicians that create laws against that.
4) Preferential? No, they lobby for low riches for the rich and less resources for the poor and mentally ill.
6) Have you seen the parking lot of a Catholic church?
7) No they lobby for laws that protect pedophiles.

This is such an interesting perspective. I'm sorry that you feel this way about the church or feel that these things are advocated within the Church.

I can tell you that while no one is perfect, if you look through the lives of the saints and other holy people within the Catholic church, the virtues and values that are lauded are those that I listed above.

Saint Teresa of Calcutta
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-teresa-of-calcutta/

Saint Dulce of the Poor
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-maria-rita-lopes-pontes-de-souza-brito/

Venerable Marcello Labor
https://catholicsaints.info/venerable-marcello-labor/

Saint Thérèse of Lisieux (the little flower)
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-therese-of-lisieux/


There are many, many more examples.
These are the people that we try to use as examples to lead us in our own lives here on earth. Of course, most of us fall far short.

I don’t feel that way. It’s a fact. You are supporting a corrupt organization if you support the Catholic Church.

Wow. Okay. Clearly you don’t think these are good people worth emulating. If you don’t feel that Dr. Marcello Labor or Mother Teresa have done anything in their lives worth emulating, despite their corruption and sins, then I have to ask what you mean by believing in social justice.

Wow. Okay. Clearly you think these people could only accomplish these tasks as a Catholic. I don’t feel that way. I think they would have done all these things even if they were not part of the Catholic Church. You can emulate Mother Teresa and NOT be Catholic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP seriously you believe in everything Catholics do not.

Pro Choice
Gay marriage
Divorce

Why would you want to be part of something that condones chiid abusers and is against the things you believe in?

How about Unitarian? Or Episcopalian?.

Perhaps the OP has other beliefs the correspond with the church.
The core social values in Catholicism are:

1). Respect for life and dignity of all people.
2) Call to participate in family and community
3). Fundamental rights to life and human decency coupled with responsibility to provide those things to others.
4). Preferential treatment for the poor and vulnerable
5) Dignity and rights of workers
6). Care of the planet.
7). The promotion of justice and peace.

1) Then why do they lobby congress to make lenient laws for sexual abuse
2) Calls to whom? not everybody, they are not inclusive
3) Yet they pay for politicians that create laws against that.
4) Preferential? No, they lobby for low riches for the rich and less resources for the poor and mentally ill.
6) Have you seen the parking lot of a Catholic church?
7) No they lobby for laws that protect pedophiles.

This is such an interesting perspective. I'm sorry that you feel this way about the church or feel that these things are advocated within the Church.

I can tell you that while no one is perfect, if you look through the lives of the saints and other holy people within the Catholic church, the virtues and values that are lauded are those that I listed above.

Saint Teresa of Calcutta
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-teresa-of-calcutta/

Saint Dulce of the Poor
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-maria-rita-lopes-pontes-de-souza-brito/

Venerable Marcello Labor
https://catholicsaints.info/venerable-marcello-labor/

Saint Thérèse of Lisieux (the little flower)
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-therese-of-lisieux/


There are many, many more examples.
These are the people that we try to use as examples to lead us in our own lives here on earth. Of course, most of us fall far short.

I don’t feel that way. It’s a fact. You are supporting a corrupt organization if you support the Catholic Church.

The unique example of a “corrupt organization,” yes? No other organization with any issues? No other corruption? No public entities with problems? Nope. Just the Catholics.

Last I checked, the Catholic Church was the subject of this thread, hence calling out its corruption specifically. But enjoy your persecution complex.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP seriously you believe in everything Catholics do not.

Pro Choice
Gay marriage
Divorce

Why would you want to be part of something that condones chiid abusers and is against the things you believe in?

How about Unitarian? Or Episcopalian?.

Millions or catholics are pro choice, pro gay marriage, fine with divorce, think women should be priests and church leaders, etc.

That's like wanting to play soccer with your hands. That's not the game, go play basketball.

Seriously, grow up. The Catholic Church is the “one true church” only to CATHOLICS.

Stop spouting your opinion as fact. It’s people like you who drive people like OP away from the Catholic Church.

And The Catholic Church is the “one true church” only to SOME Catholics. Others are like OP - finding comfort in the ritual but questioning much of everything else and disgusted by the sex abuse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP seriously you believe in everything Catholics do not.

Pro Choice
Gay marriage
Divorce

Why would you want to be part of something that condones chiid abusers and is against the things you believe in?

How about Unitarian? Or Episcopalian?.

Perhaps the OP has other beliefs the correspond with the church.
The core social values in Catholicism are:

1). Respect for life and dignity of all people.
2) Call to participate in family and community
3). Fundamental rights to life and human decency coupled with responsibility to provide those things to others.
4). Preferential treatment for the poor and vulnerable
5) Dignity and rights of workers
6). Care of the planet.
7). The promotion of justice and peace.

1) Then why do they lobby congress to make lenient laws for sexual abuse
2) Calls to whom? not everybody, they are not inclusive
3) Yet they pay for politicians that create laws against that.
4) Preferential? No, they lobby for low riches for the rich and less resources for the poor and mentally ill.
6) Have you seen the parking lot of a Catholic church?
7) No they lobby for laws that protect pedophiles.

This is such an interesting perspective. I'm sorry that you feel this way about the church or feel that these things are advocated within the Church.

I can tell you that while no one is perfect, if you look through the lives of the saints and other holy people within the Catholic church, the virtues and values that are lauded are those that I listed above.

Saint Teresa of Calcutta
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-teresa-of-calcutta/

Saint Dulce of the Poor
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-maria-rita-lopes-pontes-de-souza-brito/

Venerable Marcello Labor
https://catholicsaints.info/venerable-marcello-labor/

Saint Thérèse of Lisieux (the little flower)
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-therese-of-lisieux/


There are many, many more examples.
These are the people that we try to use as examples to lead us in our own lives here on earth. Of course, most of us fall far short.

I don’t feel that way. It’s a fact. You are supporting a corrupt organization if you support the Catholic Church.

The unique example of a “corrupt organization,” yes? No other organization with any issues? No other corruption? No public entities with problems? Nope. Just the Catholics.

No. I don’t think OP needs to join any Church to explore her spirituality. Many organizations are corrupt.