Help me teach my son about women’s rights!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm dealing with this push back against family values with my 14 y.o. DS, too. Though with him its more with the issues of economic inequality and racism - one minute he sounds like a liberal and the next a conservative! I think its just what they have to do to become the independent people that they will become. Instead of arguing with him, I've found it better to gently remind him of what facts he may be missing. Staying calm and trying to have a discussion is key.

Op here. This has been my situation exactly. I thought we were having good discussions until I realized he has this other persona online. Our discussions aren’t enough to counter the content he is receiving online. I have got to figure out how to get him away from that. I just don’t know how to do this without making things worse. I’m afraid he will see me as a woman trying to control a man and make him double down on these views.

Different poster here. My son takes the position that you can both support police and try to end racism and systemic inequities. But his liberal friends tear him apart for this. Because, #ACAB. So he’s turned to conservative friends for support. And unfortunately there is more messaging going on than pro police. There is a lot of this misogynistic, racist talk.

I’m not trashing liberals. I am liberal. I’m trashing the all-or-nothing mentality out there. Life is complicated. Problems are complicated. Solutions are even more complicated. But few in social media get that.

This. It often shocks people that I am a black liberal who is not anti police, who doesn't want to abolish the police all together. There's a lot we have to be all or nothing about nowadays, racism and sexism being two of those things, but in addressing those issue we have to be careful we don't leave room for those with toxic ideologies to draw our kids in with sweet words because our kids express frustration with something anf we shut them down for fear they might be racist or sexist.

No one wants to "abolish the police altogether." Jesus.

This is exactly what I was talking about PP. People like to hone in on one thing they don't like and get nasty, miss the entire message, put people off, and communication breaks down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here

Gonna try clarifying the conversation about Scouts again. I informed him that the girls would not be integrated into his troop or camps. He was not aware that this is the case. He was relieved to know this. This wasn’t me trying to make him think like me. This was me giving him facts about the situation in our particular area. When he said it teaches them to be men, I asked him for examples of what he learned that’s only for men. This is a reasonable question. Again, I wasn’t asking him to think like me. Just asking him to explain what he meant by that specifically. He knew that I was a GS leader and asked me why they don’t just stick with that program. He was genuinely confused as to why they would feel the need to transfer, which is understandable. He thought they were lateral programs. In our area, Boy Scouts is a much superior program. So I answered him and explained why they feel the need to switch. I gave him examples such as the water safety badge - in BD this was several days of lifesaving training. It was rigorous. For GS, the water safety badge was a 30 min class at a water park and then they got to go play the rest of the day.

I’m not sure what I should have done differently. I realize my response wasn’t perfect but I also don’t think it was F’d up enough to send him down this rabbit hole.

Simple solution. Move him to a troop that has girls. Both our Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts are fully integrated. Its great. You can easily transfer him so I don't get the drama. Its ok for kids to be in gender specific groups, but its not my preference.

That seems like the opposite of the solution. He's telling the op he wants a male-only space. Why would she put him in an integrated troop if that was the case? He feels unheard. This sort of move would simply confirm that as fact.

I don't think this is a good idea either. OP says he has sisters he gets along with he has girls for friends. His issue isn't that he can't socialize with girls. I suspect he's craving some same age bonding with another male, he might even be looking for a big brother type situation. Think of it his sisters have each other, he could be looking for the same type of thing, and this has fortunately led him into the MRA trap.


Maybe in additon to having a conversation about the dangers of the website, find out why he was drawn to him. Maybe he would benefit from having a big brother/type mentor.

[Anonymous]

Mannly

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Women do rape boys and it usually is not prosecuted and boys are made to feel they should feel lucky instead of raped.

How is he wrong in that statement?

Because it is a form of whataboutism. Be it as it may, the comment is usually made not out of concern for boys but to push back against the notion of the male sexual predator.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women do rape boys and it usually is not prosecuted and boys are made to feel they should feel lucky instead of raped.

How is he wrong in that statement?

Because it is a form of whataboutism. Be it as it may, the comment is usually made not out of concern for boys but to push back against the notion of the male sexual predator.

So this boy is pushing back against the idea that he and his friends are all future male sexual predators and you think he shouldn't do that. That it's better for this kid to internalize that he and his friends are future male sexual predators?

Please tell me you don't have done. Or daughters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I honestly don’t know where this came from. He was NOT raised this way...but DS(14) is completely anti-feminism and proclaims to be pro men’s rights! He thinks men are more oppressed than women, I guess. I just saw that he posted something about women also being rapists and pedophiles, so people should stop saying things like “teach your sons not to rape.” Ugh. We have discussed these issues his entire life. He should get it, but he doesn’t. He has two older sisters who are very vocal on civil rights issues. Talking isn’t getting through to him. Any other ideas to make him understand that men are not the oppressed ones, specifically white men like him? He speaks out in defense of all other marginalized groups, and is likely LGBTQ. For some reason he is strong ngly anti-feminism. Any movies that might resonate with him?

Actually, statistics on college admission disagree with you. The white male applicants are the least desirable applicants.

OP doesn't care about that. It doesn't suit her narrative.

Men have never been oppressed, and therefore they are not desirable college applicants.

That's a non-sequitur.

No it isn’t. How do you not get this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about you consider his viewpoint that he doesn't want girls in Boy Scouts? Maybe it all stems from this. Boys act differently when there are girls around. The dynamics change. If he is gay then maybe he doesn't want the boys
in his troop to start talking about and flirting with girls. It was his safe place and now it is changing.

This was a couple of years ago. He now realizes what we tried to tell him in the beginning - the girls have their own troops. The boys have absolutely no interaction with the girls. They are totally separate.

So the entire exercise was a failure. His experience changed but not to his benefit, he got in trouble with his mother/parents when he complained about it, and it didn't improve Boy Scouts either.

Poor kid.

He did not get in trouble at all. Not even close. We had a calm and rational conversation. I simply let him know that the girls would be totally separate, and I asked him what experiences he has had that should only be available to men. This is a reasonable question. He also said that they should just do Girl Scouts. I explained to him that this would be a great solution if the two organizations were similar. I was a GS leader for several years. I explained to him, with examples, that Boy Scouts is much more robust and the Eagle has much more clout than the Gold Award in GS.[i][u] I did not attack him for his views in any way. We just had a conversation. He was given an opportunity to explain his viewpoint, but he had nothing. Just wanting to keep this boys club.

Wow.
Sounds like you have a REALLY crappy response to your son when he was upset that an organization he enjoyed was changing. You both enforced the negative stereotypes about a girls organization, highlighted how you thought the girls experience was more important than your sons, and dismissed his concerns.

And for the record, I’m a Girl Scout leader. Sorry if you didn’t do “robust” programming - but that’s on you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Women do rape boys and it usually is not prosecuted and boys are made to feel they should feel lucky instead of raped.

How is he wrong in that statement?

Are women the ones not prosecuting them? Are women telling them they should feel lucky? When men and boys suffer from the patriarchy the issue isn't feminism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women do rape boys and it usually is not prosecuted and boys are made to feel they should feel lucky instead of raped.

How is he wrong in that statement?

Because it is a form of whataboutism. Be it as it may, the comment is usually made not out of concern for boys but to push back against the notion of the male sexual predator.

So this boy is pushing back against the idea that he and his friends are all future male sexual predators and you think he shouldn't do that. That it's better for this kid to internalize that he and his friends are future male sexual predators?

Please tell me you don't have done. Or daughters.

No. Please try to keep up: the boy is internalizing something. It is understandable because he is clearly incredibly immature. But if the takeaway is “uh-uh, not me, I am not like that so obviously it’s not true and oh by the way boys are victims too,” that indicates a lack of cognitive ability to take on the concept without feeling like it’s a personal affront.

You would expect this with a 14 yo boy. It is a teaching opportunity.

I have two teenage daughters. I am also a dad.

If you think like this boy does, then you have some sort of arrested development.

The boy can be saved. Hopefully the boy does get saved because this line or thinking is a sure way to involuntary celibacy and, ironically, maybe becoming a sexual predator.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I honestly don’t know where this came from. He was NOT raised this way...but DS(14) is completely anti-feminism and proclaims to be pro men’s rights! He thinks men are more oppressed than women, I guess. I just saw that he posted something about women also being rapists and pedophiles, so people should stop saying things like “teach your sons not to rape.” Ugh. We have discussed these issues his entire life. He should get it, but he doesn’t. He has two older sisters who are very vocal on civil rights issues. Talking isn’t getting through to him. Any other ideas to make him understand that men are not the oppressed ones, specifically white men like him? He speaks out in defense of all other marginalized groups, and is likely LGBTQ. For some reason he is strong ngly anti-feminism. Any movies that might resonate with him?

Actually, statistics on college admission disagree with you. The white male applicants are the least desirable applicants.

OP doesn't care about that. It doesn't suit her narrative.

Men have never been oppressed, and therefore they are not desirable college applicants.

That's a non-sequitur.

No it isn’t. How do you not get this?

It’s also not true. It’s someone’s invalid opinion. It’s like saying affirmative action discriminated against men or white people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about you consider his viewpoint that he doesn't want girls in Boy Scouts? Maybe it all stems from this. Boys act differently when there are girls around. The dynamics change. If he is gay then maybe he doesn't want the boys
in his troop to start talking about and flirting with girls. It was his safe place and now it is changing.

This was a couple of years ago. He now realizes what we tried to tell him in the beginning - the girls have their own troops. The boys have absolutely no interaction with the girls. They are totally separate.

So the entire exercise was a failure. His experience changed but not to his benefit, he got in trouble with his mother/parents when he complained about it, and it didn't improve Boy Scouts either.

Poor kid.

He did not get in trouble at all. Not even close. We had a calm and rational conversation. I simply let him know that the girls would be totally separate, and I asked him what experiences he has had that should only be available to men. This is a reasonable question. He also said that they should just do Girl Scouts. I explained to him that this would be a great solution if the two organizations were similar. I was a GS leader for several years. I explained to him, with examples, that Boy Scouts is much more robust and the Eagle has much more clout than the Gold Award in GS.[i][u] I did not attack him for his views in any way. We just had a conversation. He was given an opportunity to explain his viewpoint, but he had nothing. Just wanting to keep this boys club.

Wow.
Sounds like you have a REALLY crappy response to your son when he was upset that an organization he enjoyed was changing. You both enforced the negative stereotypes about a girls organization, highlighted how you thought the girls experience was more important than your sons, and dismissed his concerns.

And for the record, I’m a Girl Scout leader. Sorry if you didn’t do “robust” programming - but that’s on you.

But isn't she right about things like the Eagle Scout award having more clout? And aren't there specific ways the federal government recognizes Boy Scouts? I don't know a lot about that but have that impression.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about you consider his viewpoint that he doesn't want girls in Boy Scouts? Maybe it all stems from this. Boys act differently when there are girls around. The dynamics change. If he is gay then maybe he doesn't want the boys
in his troop to start talking about and flirting with girls. It was his safe place and now it is changing.

This was a couple of years ago. He now realizes what we tried to tell him in the beginning - the girls have their own troops. The boys have absolutely no interaction with the girls. They are totally separate.

So the entire exercise was a failure. His experience changed but not to his benefit, he got in trouble with his mother/parents when he complained about it, and it didn't improve Boy Scouts either.

Poor kid.

He did not get in trouble at all. Not even close. We had a calm and rational conversation. I simply let him know that the girls would be totally separate, and I asked him what experiences he has had that should only be available to men. This is a reasonable question. He also said that they should just do Girl Scouts. I explained to him that this would be a great solution if the two organizations were similar. I was a GS leader for several years. I explained to him, with examples, that Boy Scouts is much more robust and the Eagle has much more clout than the Gold Award in GS.[i][u] I did not attack him for his views in any way. We just had a conversation. He was given an opportunity to explain his viewpoint, but he had nothing. Just wanting to keep this boys club.

She may not be wrong, but that's not the conversation he needed to have with his mom at the moment. It's like the post in the toddler forum, where mom explained death to her 4 year old, when the giel was just talking about how much she loved her dog.

I think we the parents of this generation, try so hard to be the perfect parent, have all the right conversations with our kids, that we miss what they are actually telling us, we miss the conversation that they need in the moment.
Wow.
Sounds like you have a REALLY crappy response to your son when he was upset that an organization he enjoyed was changing. You both enforced the negative stereotypes about a girls organization, highlighted how you thought the girls experience was more important than your sons, and dismissed his concerns.

And for the record, I’m a Girl Scout leader. Sorry if you didn’t do “robust” programming - but that’s on you.

But isn't she right about things like the Eagle Scout award having more clout? And aren't there specific ways the federal government recognizes Boy Scouts? I don't know a lot about that but have that impression.

[Anonymous]

She may not be wrong, about the prestige of EAgle scout vs any GS awards but that's not the conversation he needed to have with his mom at the moment. It's like the post in the toddler forum, where mom explained death to her 4 year old, when the giel was just talking about how much she loved her dog.

I think we the parents of this generation, try so hard to be the perfect parent, have all the right conversations with our kids, that we miss what they are actually telling us, we miss the conversation that they need in the moment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I honestly don’t know where this came from. He was NOT raised this way...but DS(14) is completely anti-feminism and proclaims to be pro men’s rights! He thinks men are more oppressed than women, I guess. I just saw that he posted something about women also being rapists and pedophiles, so people should stop saying things like “teach your sons not to rape.” Ugh. We have discussed these issues his entire life. He should get it, but he doesn’t. He has two older sisters who are very vocal on civil rights issues. Talking isn’t getting through to him. Any other ideas to make him understand that men are not the oppressed ones, specifically white men like him? He speaks out in defense of all other marginalized groups, and is likely LGBTQ. For some reason he is strong ngly anti-feminism. Any movies that might resonate with him?

So I am going to go in a completely different direction, after rereading this. I'd be very concerned that my son, who previously gets along well with his sisters and girls is "woke" is suddenly concerned with males being abused by females.and men being victims too. I would be concerned that maybe he had experienced some abuse himself.

I'll probably get tarred and feathered for thinking so, but that is what I want to find out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about you consider his viewpoint that he doesn't want girls in Boy Scouts? Maybe it all stems from this. Boys act differently when there are girls around. The dynamics change. If he is gay then maybe he doesn't want the boys
in his troop to start talking about and flirting with girls. It was his safe place and now it is changing.

This was a couple of years ago. He now realizes what we tried to tell him in the beginning - the girls have their own troops. The boys have absolutely no interaction with the girls. They are totally separate.

So the entire exercise was a failure. His experience changed but not to his benefit, he got in trouble with his mother/parents when he complained about it, and it didn't improve Boy Scouts either.

Poor kid.

He did not get in trouble at all. Not even close. We had a calm and rational conversation. I simply let him know that the girls would be totally separate, and I asked him what experiences he has had that should only be available to men. This is a reasonable question. He also said that they should just do Girl Scouts. I explained to him that this would be a great solution if the two organizations were similar. I was a GS leader for several years. I explained to him, with examples, that Boy Scouts is much more robust and the Eagle has much more clout than the Gold Award in GS.[i][u] I did not attack him for his views in any way. We just had a conversation. He was given an opportunity to explain his viewpoint, but he had nothing. Just wanting to keep this boys club.

Wow.
Sounds like you have a REALLY crappy response to your son when he was upset that an organization he enjoyed was changing. You both enforced the negative stereotypes about a girls organization, highlighted how you thought the girls experience was more important than your sons, and dismissed his concerns.

And for the record, I’m a Girl Scout leader. Sorry if you didn’t do “robust” programming - but that’s on you.

But isn't she right about things like the Eagle Scout award having more clout? And aren't there specific ways the federal government recognizes Boy Scouts? I don't know a lot about that but have that impression.

Unfortunately that is the impression, but it’s an incorrect one. Colleges give the same clout to gold vs. eagle, and the federal government - including the military - give the same recognition. For example, Both Eagle Scouts and Gold Award Girl Scouts enter the military one rank ahead.