Integrated Schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a longtime educator in DC, I think widespread integrated schools won't happen without major government action, and that might not work either. Because of the housing segregation in the city, most neighborhoods won't have schools that are that diverse, at least above the Preschool/PreK level. The few schools that are fairly diverse will be:

-Some charter schools (not the no-excuses kind) that draw from various demographic groups.
-A few schools in gentrifying neighborhoods, or in neighborhoods that are already gentrified but the school hasn't yet. Some may stay pretty diverse (Bancroft), while others may switch to being not diverse in the opposite direction by becoming largely White. Look at the demographics of Brent or Ross from 15 years ago compared to today.
-Deal, Hardy, and Wilson, which have diverse schools as feeders.

Some families of color and white families value diversity, which draws them to the types of schools listed above. Others don't make that a priority. Those that don't make diversity a major factor are usually then fine with high-achieving schools like KIPP (if they are Black), or going to WOTP schools /moving to the suburbs.

This rings true to me. I live in a gentrified and really integrated part of Ward 5. The IB PreK is very diverse through PK and K. But just about every one of my white neighbors sends their kids to one of the nearby charters or one of the DCPS further into NW. I THINK the tide may be turning for more people choosing the IB (most of my white neighbors' kids are older than PK), but we'll see over the next few years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DC decided it was better to offer an alternative to failing schools in the form of charter schools rather than fix and integrate public schools. I'm not saying this was a bad decision, just that now that they have gone all in on charters, its going to be hard to unring that bell and make public schools attractive to families. My wish would be for more integrated neighborhoods, but until that happens, for an excellent, walkable public school in every neighborhood.

Bolded is the thing said by rich people who can afford to live in rich areas with school boundaries that mostly exclude poor people. It makes them feel better but means they don't have to make any sacrifices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It has come a long way. Fewer schools are >80% minority than 10 years ago. It is a slow process, but I think DC is doing a lot of things right to make it happen.

This.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a longtime educator in DC, I think widespread integrated schools won't happen without major government action, and that might not work either. Because of the housing segregation in the city, most neighborhoods won't have schools that are that diverse, at least above the Preschool/PreK level. The few schools that are fairly diverse will be:

-Some charter schools (not the no-excuses kind) that draw from various demographic groups.
-A few schools in gentrifying neighborhoods, or in neighborhoods that are already gentrified but the school hasn't yet. Some may stay pretty diverse (Bancroft), while others may switch to being not diverse in the opposite direction by becoming largely White. Look at the demographics of Brent or Ross from 15 years ago compared to today.
-Deal, Hardy, and Wilson, which have diverse schools as feeders.

Some families of color and white families value diversity, which draws them to the types of schools listed above. Others don't make that a priority. Those that don't make diversity a major factor are usually then fine with high-achieving schools like KIPP (if they are Black), or going to WOTP schools /moving to the suburbs.

Stuart-Hobson should stay/become more diverse too. L-T and Watkins are both truly diverse and will remain that way for some time (Watkins likely forever) and, even as/if they trend whiter, JO Wilson will ensure S-H remains diverse. Likewise, Jefferson is positioned to become more diverse if/when more Brent and Van Ness kids opt in and Amidon-Bowen becomes more diverse. Really, it’s the elementary schools with smaller catchment zones that are the issue... and then convincing UMC parents to opt into middles.

SWW is also quite diverse and will remain that way by design.

It has to be tied to economic diversity within the housing stock of a catchment zone,which can be improved with zoning that allows for diverse housing stock (apartments and houses). But there is also this problem of housing values that are inflated just because the schools are better...

You must not talk to Capitol Hill realtors. Local housing values are not inflated because schools are better. Most CH buyers don't give a hoot about the state of local public schools. Not even a quarter care.

They may not care personally, but sellers and buyers sure do. I have been house hunting for three weeks now, and the difference between similar houses zoned for Maury vs Miner is easily 200K.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a longtime educator in DC, I think widespread integrated schools won't happen without major government action, and that might not work either. Because of the housing segregation in the city, most neighborhoods won't have schools that are that diverse, at least above the Preschool/PreK level. The few schools that are fairly diverse will be:

-Some charter schools (not the no-excuses kind) that draw from various demographic groups.
-A few schools in gentrifying neighborhoods, or in neighborhoods that are already gentrified but the school hasn't yet. Some may stay pretty diverse (Bancroft), while others may switch to being not diverse in the opposite direction by becoming largely White. Look at the demographics of Brent or Ross from 15 years ago compared to today.
-Deal, Hardy, and Wilson, which have diverse schools as feeders.

Some families of color and white families value diversity, which draws them to the types of schools listed above. Others don't make that a priority. Those that don't make diversity a major factor are usually then fine with high-achieving schools like KIPP (if they are Black), or going to WOTP schools /moving to the suburbs.

Stuart-Hobson should stay/become more diverse too. L-T and Watkins are both truly diverse and will remain that way for some time (Watkins likely forever) and, even as/if they trend whiter, JO Wilson will ensure S-H remains diverse. Likewise, Jefferson is positioned to become more diverse if/when more Brent and Van Ness kids opt in and Amidon-Bowen becomes more diverse. Really, it’s the elementary schools with smaller catchment zones that are the issue... and then convincing UMC parents to opt into middles.

SWW is also quite diverse and will remain that way by design.

It has to be tied to economic diversity within the housing stock of a catchment zone,which can be improved with zoning that allows for diverse housing stock (apartments and houses). But there is also this problem of housing values that are inflated just because the schools are better...

You must not talk to Capitol Hill realtors. Local housing values are not inflated because schools are better. Most CH buyers don't give a hoot about the state of local public schools. Not even a quarter care.

They may not care personally, but sellers and buyers sure do. I have been house hunting for three weeks now, and the difference between similar houses zoned for Maury vs Miner is easily 200K.

It varies a bit depending on where in the zone, but I definitely agree there's a bump. I think it makes a bigger difference where the houses are cheaper. So right on the corner of the Miner zone, say 13th & E, the housing prices are only about $50K off the prices on 13th & D (although the Maury houses are more likely to have been improved, because the can sell improved, so there's still an effect there), but at 18th & D v 18th & E the difference is $150K-$200K, but the houses are also 200-300K cheaper. The Brent/Watkins line on 8th St. is about $100K if you just compare opposite sides of the same street.

[Anonymous]

Integration is not the answer. We should stop thinking of ways to force people to live and go to school together. Those with economic and political control have made it abundantly clear that blacks are inferior to them and they do not want to live near them or go a school with a significant black population. They spent much in time and resources crafting standardized tests and establishing charter schools, G&T programs and other programs to find race neutral ways to isolate our kids. The mere existence, albeit paltry, of upper class black families in these schools/programs does not negate this fact.

The message is received and many in the black community would rather homeschool than send our kids to a school in a community we are not wanted, or in the case of public schools, that is largely neglects the actual needs of the students they serve.

There has been much research on closing the wealth gap. In terms of public schools, Instead of forced integration, lets invest heavily in getting more black teachers in local schools, improving our history and social studies curriculum, invest in enrichment and afternoon programs and reform the education tracks to include trade skills, conflict resolution and economics. Take police out of schools. Otherwise, for those in economically depressed communities, provide those who choose to home school with the funds necessary to do so, including a stipend of sorts for the home schooling parent(s) to help pay the bills.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Integration is not the answer. We should stop thinking of ways to force people to live and go to school together. Those with economic and political control have made it abundantly clear that blacks are inferior to them and they do not want to live near them or go a school with a significant black population. They spent much in time and resources crafting standardized tests and establishing charter schools, G&T programs and other programs to find race neutral ways to isolate our kids. The mere existence, albeit paltry, of upper class black families in these schools/programs does not negate this fact.

The message is received and many in the black community would rather homeschool than send our kids to a school in a community we are not wanted, or in the case of public schools, that is largely neglects the actual needs of the students they serve.

There has been much research on closing the wealth gap. In terms of public schools, Instead of forced integration, lets invest heavily in getting more black teachers in local schools, improving our history and social studies curriculum, invest in enrichment and afternoon programs and reform the education tracks to include trade skills, conflict resolution and economics. Take police out of schools. Otherwise, for those in economically depressed communities, provide those who choose to home school with the funds necessary to do so, including a stipend of sorts for the home schooling parent(s) to help pay the bills.

We have a tendency to run away from race and difficult discussions. There is clear evidence that focusing on race to address racial disparities could be effective way to address such disparities. This is true not just in education, but also in matters such as healthcare. Black kids (actually all kids regardless of race) have better academic success with black teachers. Black people see better healthcare results with black doctors. Of course, blacks should have the choice to go to school and see whichever doctors they want. But we should be more open to policies that try to encourage this and policies to address the scarcity that creates a mismatch where blacks could find black doctors or teachers for their kids if they tried.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Integration is not the answer. We should stop thinking of ways to force people to live and go to school together. Those with economic and political control have made it abundantly clear that blacks are inferior to them and they do not want to live near them or go a school with a significant black population. They spent much in time and resources crafting standardized tests and establishing charter schools, G&T programs and other programs to find race neutral ways to isolate our kids. The mere existence, albeit paltry, of upper class black families in these schools/programs does not negate this fact.

The message is received and many in the black community would rather homeschool than send our kids to a school in a community we are not wanted, or in the case of public schools, that is largely neglects the actual needs of the students they serve.

There has been much research on closing the wealth gap. In terms of public schools, Instead of forced integration, lets invest heavily in getting more black teachers in local schools, improving our history and social studies curriculum, invest in enrichment and afternoon programs and reform the education tracks to include trade skills, conflict resolution and economics. Take police out of schools. Otherwise, for those in economically depressed communities, provide those who choose to home school with the funds necessary to do so, including a stipend of sorts for the home schooling parent(s) to help pay the bills.

We have a tendency to run away from race and difficult discussions. There is clear evidence that focusing on race to address racial disparities could be effective way to address such disparities. This is true not just in education, but also in matters such as healthcare. Black kids (actually all kids regardless of race) have better academic success with black teachers. Black people see better healthcare results with black doctors. Of course, blacks should have the choice to go to school and see whichever doctors they want. But we should be more open to policies that try to encourage this and policies to address the scarcity that creates a mismatch where blacks could find black doctors or teachers for their kids if they tried.

*could=couldn't

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a longtime educator in DC, I think widespread integrated schools won't happen without major government action, and that might not work either. Because of the housing segregation in the city, most neighborhoods won't have schools that are that diverse, at least above the Preschool/PreK level. The few schools that are fairly diverse will be:

-Some charter schools (not the no-excuses kind) that draw from various demographic groups.
-A few schools in gentrifying neighborhoods, or in neighborhoods that are already gentrified but the school hasn't yet. Some may stay pretty diverse (Bancroft), while others may switch to being not diverse in the opposite direction by becoming largely White. Look at the demographics of Brent or Ross from 15 years ago compared to today.
-Deal, Hardy, and Wilson, which have diverse schools as feeders.

Some families of color and white families value diversity, which draws them to the types of schools listed above. Others don't make that a priority. Those that don't make diversity a major factor are usually then fine with high-achieving schools like KIPP (if they are Black), or going to WOTP schools /moving to the suburbs.

Stuart-Hobson should stay/become more diverse too. L-T and Watkins are both truly diverse and will remain that way for some time (Watkins likely forever) and, even as/if they trend whiter, JO Wilson will ensure S-H remains diverse. Likewise, Jefferson is positioned to become more diverse if/when more Brent and Van Ness kids opt in and Amidon-Bowen becomes more diverse. Really, it’s the elementary schools with smaller catchment zones that are the issue... and then convincing UMC parents to opt into middles.

SWW is also quite diverse and will remain that way by design.

It has to be tied to economic diversity within the housing stock of a catchment zone,which can be improved with zoning that allows for diverse housing stock (apartments and houses). But there is also this problem of housing values that are inflated just because the schools are better...

You must not talk to Capitol Hill realtors. Local housing values are not inflated because schools are better. Most CH buyers don't give a hoot about the state of local public schools. Not even a quarter care.

They may not care personally, but sellers and buyers sure do. I have been house hunting for three weeks now, and the difference between similar houses zoned for Maury vs Miner is easily 200K.

It varies a bit depending on where in the zone, but I definitely agree there's a bump. I think it makes a bigger difference where the houses are cheaper. So right on the corner of the Miner zone, say 13th & E, the housing prices are only about $50K off the prices on 13th & D (although the Maury houses are more likely to have been improved, because the can sell improved, so there's still an effect there), but at 18th & D v 18th & E the difference is $150K-$200K, but the houses are also 200-300K cheaper. The Brent/Watkins line on 8th St. is about $100K if you just compare opposite sides of the same street.

Same difference for blocks apart for Takoma Park vs. Takoma DC.

[Anonymous]

Raising the bar for all DCPS schools would be a strong start. Funded aftercare programs with real enrichment opportunities for all schools, and quality school lunches in every cafeteria would change a lot of the individual decision-making taking place for District families. High-quality, system-wide arts and science programs would level the field. Having a robust team of social workers in every school would provide the supports needed within every demographic. District wide teacher trainings would bring schools into closer contact and could bridge the divide in pedagogical approaches---especially regarding classroom discipline.

For me, it's more about equity than integration. Integrate or mainstream the right programming and you open up real choices and reduce inherent bias.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Integration is not the answer. We should stop thinking of ways to force people to live and go to school together. Those with economic and political control have made it abundantly clear that blacks are inferior to them and they do not want to live near them or go a school with a significant black population. They spent much in time and resources crafting standardized tests and establishing charter schools, G&T programs and other programs to find race neutral ways to isolate our kids. The mere existence, albeit paltry, of upper class black families in these schools/programs does not negate this fact.

The message is received and many in the black community would rather homeschool than send our kids to a school in a community we are not wanted, or in the case of public schools, that is largely neglects the actual needs of the students they serve.

There has been much research on closing the wealth gap. In terms of public schools, Instead of forced integration, lets invest heavily in getting more black teachers in local schools, improving our history and social studies curriculum, invest in enrichment and afternoon programs and reform the education tracks to include trade skills, conflict resolution and economics. Take police out of schools. Otherwise, for those in economically depressed communities, provide those who choose to home school with the funds necessary to do so, including a stipend of sorts for the home schooling parent(s) to help pay the bills.

I respect your opinion, but I don't think separate but equal has ever worked in this country. If you agree that institutional racism is a thing, I can't ever imagine sending my kid to an all-black school and expecting it to receive the same resources that a white school does. It also won't fix the legacy of racism and concentrated poverty in many neighborhoods, and so the achievement gap would remain. There is still a lot of de facto segregation--for example, WOTP vs. the rest of DC--but I think better integration is the imperfect but hopeful answer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Integration is not the answer. We should stop thinking of ways to force people to live and go to school together. Those with economic and political control have made it abundantly clear that blacks are inferior to them and they do not want to live near them or go a school with a significant black population. They spent much in time and resources crafting standardized tests and establishing charter schools, G&T programs and other programs to find race neutral ways to isolate our kids. The mere existence, albeit paltry, of upper class black families in these schools/programs does not negate this fact.

The message is received and many in the black community would rather homeschool than send our kids to a school in a community we are not wanted, or in the case of public schools, that is largely neglects the actual needs of the students they serve.

There has been much research on closing the wealth gap. In terms of public schools, Instead of forced integration, lets invest heavily in getting more black teachers in local schools, improving our history and social studies curriculum, invest in enrichment and afternoon programs and reform the education tracks to include trade skills, conflict resolution and economics. Take police out of schools. Otherwise, for those in economically depressed communities, provide those who choose to home school with the funds necessary to do so, including a stipend of sorts for the home schooling parent(s) to help pay the bills.

I respect your opinion, but I don't think separate but equal has ever worked in this country. If you agree that institutional racism is a thing, I can't ever imagine sending my kid to an all-black school and expecting it to receive the same resources that a white school does. It also won't fix the legacy of racism and concentrated poverty in many neighborhoods, and so the achievement gap would remain. There is still a lot of de facto segregation--for example, WOTP vs. the rest of DC--but I think better integration is the imperfect but hopeful answer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Integration is not the answer. We should stop thinking of ways to force people to live and go to school together. Those with economic and political control have made it abundantly clear that blacks are inferior to them and they do not want to live near them or go a school with a significant black population. They spent much in time and resources crafting standardized tests and establishing charter schools, G&T programs and other programs to find race neutral ways to isolate our kids. The mere existence, albeit paltry, of upper class black families in these schools/programs does not negate this fact.

The message is received and many in the black community would rather homeschool than send our kids to a school in a community we are not wanted, or in the case of public schools, that is largely neglects the actual needs of the students they serve.

There has been much research on closing the wealth gap. In terms of public schools, Instead of forced integration, lets invest heavily in getting more black teachers in local schools, improving our history and social studies curriculum, invest in enrichment and afternoon programs and reform the education tracks to include trade skills, conflict resolution and economics. Take police out of schools. Otherwise, for those in economically depressed communities, provide those who choose to home school with the funds necessary to do so, including a stipend of sorts for the home schooling parent(s) to help pay the bills.

I respect your opinion, but I don't think separate but equal has ever worked in this country. If you agree that institutional racism is a thing, I can't ever imagine sending my kid to an all-black school and expecting it to receive the same resources that a white school does. It also won't fix the legacy of racism and concentrated poverty in many neighborhoods, and so the achievement gap would remain. There is still a lot of de facto segregation--for example, WOTP vs. the rest of DC--but I think better integration is the imperfect but hopeful answer.

PP again. I do think some of the other things you've proposed in bold would also be worthwhile efforts, not just in predominantly black schools--I think white kids would also benefit from having more diverse teachers, for example.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Integration is not the answer. We should stop thinking of ways to force people to live and go to school together. Those with economic and political control have made it abundantly clear that blacks are inferior to them and they do not want to live near them or go a school with a significant black population. They spent much in time and resources crafting standardized tests and establishing charter schools, G&T programs and other programs to find race neutral ways to isolate our kids. The mere existence, albeit paltry, of upper class black families in these schools/programs does not negate this fact.

The message is received and many in the black community would rather homeschool than send our kids to a school in a community we are not wanted, or in the case of public schools, that is largely neglects the actual needs of the students they serve.

There has been much research on closing the wealth gap. In terms of public schools, Instead of forced integration, lets invest heavily in getting more black teachers in local schools, improving our history and social studies curriculum, invest in enrichment and afternoon programs and reform the education tracks to include trade skills, conflict resolution and economics. Take police out of schools. Otherwise, for those in economically depressed communities, provide those who choose to home school with the funds necessary to do so, including a stipend of sorts for the home schooling parent(s) to help pay the bills.

I respect your opinion, but I don't think separate but equal has ever worked in this country. If you agree that institutional racism is a thing, I can't ever imagine sending my kid to an all-black school and expecting it to receive the same resources that a white school does. It also won't fix the legacy of racism and concentrated poverty in many neighborhoods, and so the achievement gap would remain. There is still a lot of de facto segregation--for example, WOTP vs. the rest of DC--but I think better integration is the imperfect but hopeful answer.

Separate but equal never worked because um..... it never happened.

Schools do not need to be integrated with upper middle class white kids to be “better”. The problem is not student racial demographics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Integration is not the answer. We should stop thinking of ways to force people to live and go to school together. Those with economic and political control have made it abundantly clear that blacks are inferior to them and they do not want to live near them or go a school with a significant black population. They spent much in time and resources crafting standardized tests and establishing charter schools, G&T programs and other programs to find race neutral ways to isolate our kids. The mere existence, albeit paltry, of upper class black families in these schools/programs does not negate this fact.

The message is received and many in the black community would rather homeschool than send our kids to a school in a community we are not wanted, or in the case of public schools, that is largely neglects the actual needs of the students they serve.

There has been much research on closing the wealth gap. In terms of public schools, Instead of forced integration, lets invest heavily in getting more black teachers in local schools, improving our history and social studies curriculum, invest in enrichment and afternoon programs and reform the education tracks to include trade skills, conflict resolution and economics. Take police out of schools. Otherwise, for those in economically depressed communities, provide those who choose to home school with the funds necessary to do so, including a stipend of sorts for the home schooling parent(s) to help pay the bills.

I respect your opinion, but I don't think separate but equal has ever worked in this country. If you agree that institutional racism is a thing, I can't ever imagine sending my kid to an all-black school and expecting it to receive the same resources that a white school does. It also won't fix the legacy of racism and concentrated poverty in many neighborhoods, and so the achievement gap would remain. There is still a lot of de facto segregation--for example, WOTP vs. the rest of DC--but I think better integration is the imperfect but hopeful answer.

Separate but equal never worked because um..... it never happened.

Schools do not need to be integrated with upper middle class white kids to be “better”. The problem is not student racial demographics.

Schools do not need to be intergrated with UMC white kids to be "better" but it certainly helps a school to get an adequate share of resources and effective teachers when there is a critical mass of UMC white kids at a school. Brown v. Board of Education was not just about the social impact of de jure segregation it was a recognition that that integration was the only way black children would have access to the same resources as white children.