United Methodist Church schism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a minister. Watching this unfold has been interesting. Churches across the country are hemorrhaging members. People are waking up. They are seeing through the expensive stained glass, silver plates, and bad combovers. They are exhausted by one sex scandal after another. They are confused by the cult-like support of a “president “ who is literally the complete opposite of everything Christ taught.

Organized religion isn’t being destroyed by liberals. It’s being destroyed from within by hypocrites, bigots, and racists who are so very unlike the Christ they claim to follow. And it’s being replaced by a deeper understanding of what all great spiritual leaders taught - compassion, inclusivity, tolerance, and love. Religion is dying but spirituality is not.

Um, okay, Mr. UU, thanks for chiming in. “Spirituality” is not going to save us. Jesus will.

I hope He hurries up.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand the breakaways. It’s the same for a Anglicans who “broke away” from the Episcopal church. The church leadership set the existing policies, and there are a million other churches and denominations that don’t like women and/or gay people. Go there if that’s your thing, because fundamentally that’s what it’s about.

I left the Methodist Church two years because I got sick of the constant celebrating of the LGBTQ community. Go be whoever you want. I really don’t care. But I don’t attend church to celebrate you and your cause. I go there to worship Christ and this LGBTQ issue has, in my opinion, taken the focus off of Christ.

Exactly!!!!

Same here! However, for me it was their audacity to place their middle finger up at Jesus Christ by deciding that he will no longer be the focus of the church. Once Christ has left the church why even bother attending. I want to hear about Jesus Christ when I attend church not about politics. Their services felt like a hippie convention. Some of the extremists within the church are pushing anti-Christian rhetoric.

Jesus Christ was very much a “hippy”.

Yep, there he was, in a drum circle, advocating “free love” and smoking pot. What a historian you are!

Yeah, the idea that Jesus was “very much a hippy” makes it clear that there has only been reading of very selective passages. Jesus was not a Care Bear. The version of “Christianity” that wants to portray him as such is just so misguided it makes me sad.

[Anonymous]

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword. For I have come to set a man ‘against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one’s enemies will be those of his household.’” (Matthew 10:34-36)

Yeah, he sounds like a real free love hippie. Sigh.

The characterizations of Christ as some kind of soft-spoken, nurturing, feel-good kind of motivational speaker are just so insanely sophomoric I don’t know where to begin. Stop it.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I wonder what the future holds for the UMC. If they go the route of Episcopal churches, then it will be a slow death. Is liberalism the death of many mainline Protestant churches? I see so many beautiful and historical churches with empty seats. It seems like many mainline Christian denominations are loosing membership besides their converts in Africa and in Asia. However, mega conservative churches and prosperity preaching churches are growing like weeds all over the country.

I began witnessing the division of the UMC 22 years ago. I am just surprised that it took this long for a schism to occur.

I think it will follow the trend of the divided Presbyterians — the conservative PCA is thriving while the liberal PCUSA is losing members.

I am in a liberal Presbyterian church that is absolutely thriving.

I assume you’re in this area? This super-liberal area is not representative.

I am now in the Midwest, actually.

Where, exactly? You know you’re not representative.

In a state that went for Donald Trump. I actually think my church's model of being very inclusive is the exact model to bring people back to church. People are seeking us out who live an hour away. The model is relentlessly positive and thoughtful. I feel every week like I've gone to a great college lecture on the history of Christianity. Gay families are welcomed wholeheartedly, as are foster families and families with kids with all kinds of special needs, from mild to severe. Their are unique special needs worship services that are shorter and more interactive for the group homes in our area.

Our church is almost 200 years old, and so there's a lot of old guard Presbyterians there. A few left when the session decided to be purposely inclusive (the churches are run by its members, not the Pastor) but more came. So you'll see in our pews a lot of white haired folks sitting next to a gay family with biracial foster children and another couple with the son on the ASD spectrum who was never welcomed at other churches because he was too "noisy."

I think this is what Jesus would have wanted.

Statistics are hard, I know, but I’m not sure why you seem to think that the existence of YOUR church negates or counters the sharp downward trend of mainline Protestantism.

Yes but it's millennials who are leaving organized religion. You're not getting them back by offering anti-gay, any-woman conservative churches.

This, however, might be a way to get them back.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword. For I have come to set a man ‘against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one’s enemies will be those of his household.’” (Matthew 10:34-36)

Yeah, he sounds like a real free love hippie. Sigh.

The characterizations of Christ as some kind of soft-spoken, nurturing, feel-good kind of motivational speaker are just so insanely sophomoric I don’t know where to begin. Stop it.

Well we know he got furious at the money changers in the temple. So there's that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what the future holds for the UMC. If they go the route of Episcopal churches, then it will be a slow death. Is liberalism the death of many mainline Protestant churches? I see so many beautiful and historical churches with empty seats. It seems like many mainline Christian denominations are loosing membership besides their converts in Africa and in Asia. However, mega conservative churches and prosperity preaching churches are growing like weeds all over the country.

I began witnessing the division of the UMC 22 years ago. I am just surprised that it took this long for a schism to occur.

I think it will follow the trend of the divided Presbyterians — the conservative PCA is thriving while the liberal PCUSA is losing members.

I am in a liberal Presbyterian church that is absolutely thriving.

I assume you’re in this area? This super-liberal area is not representative.

I am now in the Midwest, actually.

Where, exactly? You know you’re not representative.

In a state that went for Donald Trump. I actually think my church's model of being very inclusive is the exact model to bring people back to church. People are seeking us out who live an hour away. The model is relentlessly positive and thoughtful. I feel every week like I've gone to a great college lecture on the history of Christianity. Gay families are welcomed wholeheartedly, as are foster families and families with kids with all kinds of special needs, from mild to severe. Their are unique special needs worship services that are shorter and more interactive for the group homes in our area.

Our church is almost 200 years old, and so there's a lot of old guard Presbyterians there. A few left when the session decided to be purposely inclusive (the churches are run by its members, not the Pastor) but more came. So you'll see in our pews a lot of white haired folks sitting next to a gay family with biracial foster children and another couple with the son on the ASD spectrum who was never welcomed at other churches because he was too "noisy."

I think this is what Jesus would have wanted.

Statistics are hard, I know, but I’m not sure why you seem to think that the existence of YOUR church negates or counters the sharp downward trend of mainline Protestantism.

Yes but it's millennials who are leaving organized religion. You're not getting them back by offering anti-gay, any-woman conservative churches.

This, however, might be a way to get them back.

They’ll come back once they grow up and have kids and have the overdue realization that relativist secularism is bankrupt. And if not their loss.

[Anonymous]

Why would they subject their kids to such dated, slow changing, backwards institutions like a conservative organized religions? These places are lost in time.

I mean look at the Catholics...it is doctrine that females cant even hold positions of leadership. I am going to immerse my little girls in that? why?

[Anonymous]

Or my little boys for that matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m a minister. Watching this unfold has been interesting. Churches across the country are hemorrhaging members. People are waking up. They are seeing through the expensive stained glass, silver plates, and bad combovers. They are exhausted by one sex scandal after another. They are confused by the cult-like support of a “president “ who is literally the complete opposite of everything Christ taught.

Organized religion isn’t being destroyed by liberals. It’s being destroyed from within by hypocrites, bigots, and racists who are so very unlike the Christ they claim to follow. And it’s being replaced by a deeper understanding of what all great spiritual leaders taught - compassion, inclusivity, tolerance, and love. Religion is dying but spirituality is not.

I agree with all you say, except for the last line. Spirituality is diminishing, though it not may not ever "die." It doesn't need to, as long as it hurts no one. And while organized religion could completely die out, spirituality could live on, because, unlike religion, spirituality is a trait that some people are born with. And it is a good or neutral trait, bringing contentment to the person who has it, without any expectations of those who, by nature, are not spiritual.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I left mainline liberal Protestantism because I felt like it didn't stand for anything, so why bother? There was no G-d anywhere. It was all about feeling good and everything goes and change whatever you want based on your own thoughts or feelings. Never mind what the Bible might say, it's just a bunch of stories written by people, so feel free to ignore anything you don't like. Even basic doctrine. Premarital sex? Go for it, it's modern times, who needs any silly old-fashioned standards. Believe in Jesus or don't be saved? Meh, that's not nice, it probably doesn't mean that, paganism is odd but as long as they're kind, whatever, they'll be fine! Those evangelicals are fundamentalist weirdos.

It made me crazy. No standards, no serious respect for the Bible, nothing is ever not OK because that's being judgmental and those in glass houses etc. Never mind what G-d wants or says, just do what feels right. That's fine, but it's worshiping yourself, not G-d. Don't call it religion. Be secular and own that.

So I left. Mainline liberal Protestantism has become so open that everything has fallen out. And people sense it. That's why they leave. They either abandon church entirely, because why bother to waste your Sunday mornings with a storybook that nobody actually believes in or follows, or go to a more conservative church. And it's not just mainline Protestant churches--the only branch of Judaism that is growing is Orthodox. People are either going more religious or giving it up completely and the middle ground is disappearing. Being wishy-washy about everything does not hold the allegiance of followers. People want something
firm to believe in, or not believe at all. The numbers tell the story.

And the numbers say that ALL religions are fading -- some faster than others. The only group that is growing are the "nones" - agnostics, atheists and "nothing in particular"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a minister. Watching this unfold has been interesting. Churches across the country are hemorrhaging members. People are waking up. They are seeing through the expensive stained glass, silver plates, and bad combovers. They are exhausted by one sex scandal after another. They are confused by the cult-like support of a “president “ who is literally the complete opposite of everything Christ taught.

Organized religion isn’t being destroyed by liberals. It’s being destroyed from within by hypocrites, bigots, and racists who are so very unlike the Christ they claim to follow. And it’s being replaced by a deeper understanding of what all great spiritual leaders taught - compassion, inclusivity, tolerance, and love. Religion is dying but spirituality is not.

Um, okay, Mr. UU, thanks for chiming in. “Spirituality” is not going to save us. Jesus will.

I hope He hurries up.

Trump's latest move in Iran could speed things up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what the future holds for the UMC. If they go the route of Episcopal churches, then it will be a slow death. Is liberalism the death of many mainline Protestant churches? I see so many beautiful and historical churches with empty seats. It seems like many mainline Christian denominations are loosing membership besides their converts in Africa and in Asia. However, mega conservative churches and prosperity preaching churches are growing like weeds all over the country.

I began witnessing the division of the UMC 22 years ago. I am just surprised that it took this long for a schism to occur.

Not any more, they're not. Their numbers are shrinking too.

https://www.pewforum.org/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christianity-continues-at-rapid-pace/ :
"The data shows that both Protestants who describe themselves as born-again or evangelical Christians and Protestants who are not born-again or evangelical have declined as a share of the overall U.S. adult population, reflecting the country’s broader shift away from Christianity as a whole"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I left mainline liberal Protestantism because I felt like it didn't stand for anything, so why bother? There was no G-d anywhere. It was all about feeling good and everything goes and change whatever you want based on your own thoughts or feelings. Never mind what the Bible might say, it's just a bunch of stories written by people, so feel free to ignore anything you don't like. Even basic doctrine. Premarital sex? Go for it, it's modern times, who needs any silly old-fashioned standards. Believe in Jesus or don't be saved? Meh, that's not nice, it probably doesn't mean that, paganism is odd but as long as they're kind, whatever, they'll be fine! Those evangelicals are fundamentalist weirdos.

It made me crazy. No standards, no serious respect for the Bible, nothing is ever not OK because that's being judgmental and those in glass houses etc. Never mind what G-d wants or says, just do what feels right. That's fine, but it's worshiping yourself, not G-d. Don't call it religion. Be secular and own that.

So I left. Mainline liberal Protestantism has become so open that everything has fallen out. And people sense it. That's why they leave. They either abandon church entirely, because why bother to waste your Sunday mornings with a storybook that nobody actually believes in or follows, or go to a more conservative church. And it's not just mainline Protestant churches--the only branch of Judaism that is growing is Orthodox. People are either going more religious or giving it up completely and the middle ground is disappearing. Being wishy-washy about everything does not hold the allegiance of followers. People want something
firm to believe in, or not believe at all. The numbers tell the story.

^^Good example of the fundamentalist mindset and suggests that it's inborn - not something you have to learn, but rather something you just know. If born into Mormonism or Orthodox Judaism, pp would probably still be part of the faith.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a minister. Watching this unfold has been interesting. Churches across the country are hemorrhaging members. People are waking up. They are seeing through the expensive stained glass, silver plates, and bad combovers. They are exhausted by one sex scandal after another. They are confused by the cult-like support of a “president “ who is literally the complete opposite of everything Christ taught.

Organized religion isn’t being destroyed by liberals. It’s being destroyed from within by hypocrites, bigots, and racists who are so very unlike the Christ they claim to follow. And it’s being replaced by a deeper understanding of what all great spiritual leaders taught - compassion, inclusivity, tolerance, and love. Religion is dying but spirituality is not.

Um, okay, Mr. UU, thanks for chiming in. “Spirituality” is not going to save us. Jesus will.

Spirituality does not seek to save and spiritual people don't expect or want to be "saved" by Jesus or anyone else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why would they subject their kids to such dated, slow changing, backwards institutions like a conservative organized religions? These places are lost in time.

I mean look at the Catholics...it is doctrine that females cant even hold positions of leadership. I am going to immerse my little girls in that? why?

Women and men have different roles; it doesn’t mean women’s roles are any less important. I am a woman, the breadwinner for my family, and a practicing and faithful Catholic who will raise my boys AND girls Catholic.