United Methodist Church schism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Well, I thought it would come to this and it has. The UMC will split into two denominations with the UMC maintaining the reconciling ministry allowing LGBT clergy and allowing clergy to perform gay marriages.

A new "traditional Methodist" denomination will spin off that will follow the traditional plan that was voted on last year and set to be implemented starting yesterday that would bar clergy from conducting gay marriages and ordaining gay clergy.

I really think it is for the best. Much like this country, the UMC has been sharply divided and polarized by this difference in opinion with predominantly the non-US churches wanting to follow the traditional plan and about 3/4 of the American churches that wanted to continue with the former policies. The non-US churches and the smaller demographic of conservative US churches will spin off.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2020/01/03...ns-third-largest-denomination/


I remember when this happened to the Episcopalians. I would not be opposed to it in my own faith, Catholicism, if it mean that my daughter did not have to leave to marry the woman she loves some day.


Your daughter can marry legally in a court of law. The Catholic sacrament of marriage is between a man and woman. There are sacraments that not everyone gets — the sacrament of ordination, as an obvious example. Your daughter doesn’t have to leave Catholicism over it.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church names “homosexual acts” as “intrinsically immoral and contrary to the natural law,” and names “homosexual tendencies” as “objectively disordered.” A person who is married to a same-sex partner is not permitted to receive Communion. Not being able to receive the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist is terribly exclusionary and a painful reminder each week that your own church considers you less than worthy. So maybe you don't have to leave, but church shouldn't be a constant source of pain and discrimination.

Please cite the Catechism passage that says she can’t receive communion. You can’t because that is NOT true. There are some uber-conservative parishes that make a show of denying communion to people like Joe Biden to make a point, but the vast majority of parishes give communion to all us sinners (divorced, criminals, etc.) because the actual Catholic teaching is that for all we know the person’s heart at that moment may have been reconciled to God.

“A gay or lesbian Catholic who is living a chaste single life is a Catholic in good standing, and is entitled to participate fully in the spiritual and sacramental life of the Catholic faith community.
A gay or lesbian Catholic who regularly engages in sexual activity or is a partner in a committed personal relationship which includes regular sexual relations is entitled to participate in a limited way in the spiritual and sacramental life of the Church.“

That is NOT from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It’s from some random parish’s website.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what the future holds for the UMC. If they go the route of Episcopal churches, then it will be a slow death. Is liberalism the death of many mainline Protestant churches? I see so many beautiful and historical churches with empty seats. It seems like many mainline Christian denominations are loosing membership besides their converts in Africa and in Asia. However, mega conservative churches and prosperity preaching churches are growing like weeds all over the country.

I began witnessing the division of the UMC 22 years ago. I am just surprised that it took this long for a schism to occur.

I think it will follow the trend of the divided Presbyterians — the conservative PCA is thriving while the liberal PCUSA is losing members.

I am in a liberal Presbyterian church that is absolutely thriving.

I assume you’re in this area? This super-liberal area is not representative.

I am now in the Midwest, actually.

Where, exactly? You know you’re not representative.

In a state that went for Donald Trump. I actually think my church's model of being very inclusive is the exact model to bring people back to church. People are seeking us out who live an hour away. The model is relentlessly positive and thoughtful. I feel every week like I've gone to a great college lecture on the history of Christianity. Gay families are welcomed wholeheartedly, as are foster families and families with kids with all kinds of special needs, from mild to severe. Their are unique special needs worship services that are shorter and more interactive for the group homes in our area.

Our church is almost 200 years old, and so there's a lot of old guard Presbyterians there. A few left when the session decided to be purposely inclusive (the churches are run by its members, not the Pastor) but more came. So you'll see in our pews a lot of white haired folks sitting next to a gay family with biracial foster children and another couple with the son on the ASD spectrum who was never welcomed at other churches because he was too "noisy."

I think this is what Jesus would have wanted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what the future holds for the UMC. If they go the route of Episcopal churches, then it will be a slow death. Is liberalism the death of many mainline Protestant churches? I see so many beautiful and historical churches with empty seats. It seems like many mainline Christian denominations are loosing membership besides their converts in Africa and in Asia. However, mega conservative churches and prosperity preaching churches are growing like weeds all over the country.

I began witnessing the division of the UMC 22 years ago. I am just surprised that it took this long for a schism to occur.

I think it will follow the trend of the divided Presbyterians — the conservative PCA is thriving while the liberal PCUSA is losing members.

I am in a liberal Presbyterian church that is absolutely thriving.

I assume you’re in this area? This super-liberal area is not representative.

I am now in the Midwest, actually.

Where, exactly? You know you’re not representative.

In a state that went for Donald Trump. I actually think my church's model of being very inclusive is the exact model to bring people back to church. People are seeking us out who live an hour away. The model is relentlessly positive and thoughtful. I feel every week like I've gone to a great college lecture on the history of Christianity. Gay families are welcomed wholeheartedly, as are foster families and families with kids with all kinds of special needs, from mild to severe. Their are unique special needs worship services that are shorter and more interactive for the group homes in our area.

Our church is almost 200 years old, and so there's a lot of old guard Presbyterians there. A few left when the session decided to be purposely inclusive (the churches are run by its members, not the Pastor) but more came. So you'll see in our pews a lot of white haired folks sitting next to a gay family with biracial foster children and another couple with the son on the ASD spectrum who was never welcomed at other churches because he was too "noisy."

I think this is what Jesus would have wanted.

Well Texas is a state that went for Donald Trump but if you’re actually in Austin then...

And yep, describing church as a “great college lecture” is exactly the model that will attract only a tiny minority of people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what the future holds for the UMC. If they go the route of Episcopal churches, then it will be a slow death. Is liberalism the death of many mainline Protestant churches? I see so many beautiful and historical churches with empty seats. It seems like many mainline Christian denominations are loosing membership besides their converts in Africa and in Asia. However, mega conservative churches and prosperity preaching churches are growing like weeds all over the country.

I began witnessing the division of the UMC 22 years ago. I am just surprised that it took this long for a schism to occur.

I think it will follow the trend of the divided Presbyterians — the conservative PCA is thriving while the liberal PCUSA is losing members.

I am in a liberal Presbyterian church that is absolutely thriving.

I assume you’re in this area? This super-liberal area is not representative.

I am now in the Midwest, actually.

Where, exactly? You know you’re not representative.

In a state that went for Donald Trump. I actually think my church's model of being very inclusive is the exact model to bring people back to church. People are seeking us out who live an hour away. The model is relentlessly positive and thoughtful. I feel every week like I've gone to a great college lecture on the history of Christianity. Gay families are welcomed wholeheartedly, as are foster families and families with kids with all kinds of special needs, from mild to severe. Their are unique special needs worship services that are shorter and more interactive for the group homes in our area.

Our church is almost 200 years old, and so there's a lot of old guard Presbyterians there. A few left when the session decided to be purposely inclusive (the churches are run by its members, not the Pastor) but more came. So you'll see in our pews a lot of white haired folks sitting next to a gay family with biracial foster children and another couple with the son on the ASD spectrum who was never welcomed at other churches because he was too "noisy."

I think this is what Jesus would have wanted.

Statistics are hard, I know, but I’m not sure why you seem to think that the existence of YOUR church negates or counters the sharp downward trend of mainline Protestantism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what the future holds for the UMC. If they go the route of Episcopal churches, then it will be a slow death. Is liberalism the death of many mainline Protestant churches? I see so many beautiful and historical churches with empty seats. It seems like many mainline Christian denominations are loosing membership besides their converts in Africa and in Asia. However, mega conservative churches and prosperity preaching churches are growing like weeds all over the country.

I began witnessing the division of the UMC 22 years ago. I am just surprised that it took this long for a schism to occur.

I think it will follow the trend of the divided Presbyterians — the conservative PCA is thriving while the liberal PCUSA is losing members.

I am in a liberal Presbyterian church that is absolutely thriving.

I assume you’re in this area? This super-liberal area is not representative.

I am now in the Midwest, actually.

Where, exactly? You know you’re not representative.

In a state that went for Donald Trump. I actually think my church's model of being very inclusive is the exact model to bring people back to church. People are seeking us out who live an hour away. The model is relentlessly positive and thoughtful. I feel every week like I've gone to a great college lecture on the history of Christianity. Gay families are welcomed wholeheartedly, as are foster families and families with kids with all kinds of special needs, from mild to severe. Their are unique special needs worship services that are shorter and more interactive for the group homes in our area.

Our church is almost 200 years old, and so there's a lot of old guard Presbyterians there. A few left when the session decided to be purposely inclusive (the churches are run by its members, not the Pastor) but more came. So you'll see in our pews a lot of white haired folks sitting next to a gay family with biracial foster children and another couple with the son on the ASD spectrum who was never welcomed at other churches because he was too "noisy."

I think this is what Jesus would have wanted.

But there are deep blue areas in states that voted for Donald Trump. Think Madison, WI or Austin or Asheville or Broward Co FL or wherever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what the future holds for the UMC. If they go the route of Episcopal churches, then it will be a slow death. Is liberalism the death of many mainline Protestant churches? I see so many beautiful and historical churches with empty seats. It seems like many mainline Christian denominations are loosing membership besides their converts in Africa and in Asia. However, mega conservative churches and prosperity preaching churches are growing like weeds all over the country.

I began witnessing the division of the UMC 22 years ago. I am just surprised that it took this long for a schism to occur.

I think it will follow the trend of the divided Presbyterians — the conservative PCA is thriving while the liberal PCUSA is losing members.

I am in a liberal Presbyterian church that is absolutely thriving.

I assume you’re in this area? This super-liberal area is not representative.

I am now in the Midwest, actually.

Where, exactly? You know you’re not representative.

In a state that went for Donald Trump. I actually think my church's model of being very inclusive is the exact model to bring people back to church. People are seeking us out who live an hour away. The model is relentlessly positive and thoughtful. I feel every week like I've gone to a great college lecture on the history of Christianity. Gay families are welcomed wholeheartedly, as are foster families and families with kids with all kinds of special needs, from mild to severe. Their are unique special needs worship services that are shorter and more interactive for the group homes in our area.

Our church is almost 200 years old, and so there's a lot of old guard Presbyterians there. A few left when the session decided to be purposely inclusive (the churches are run by its members, not the Pastor) but more came. So you'll see in our pews a lot of white haired folks sitting next to a gay family with biracial foster children and another couple with the son on the ASD spectrum who was never welcomed at other churches because he was too "noisy."

I think this is what Jesus would have wanted.

But there are deep blue areas in states that voted for Donald Trump. Think Madison, WI or Austin or Asheville or Broward Co FL or wherever.

It's in an area of the Midwest that was GOP a decade ago but has switched over to light blue.

Anyway, my point is this: People will go to liberal churches, done right.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand the breakaways. It’s the same for a Anglicans who “broke away” from the Episcopal church. The church leadership set the existing policies, and there are a million other churches and denominations that don’t like women and/or gay people. Go there if that’s your thing, because fundamentally that’s what it’s about.

I left the Methodist Church two years because I got sick of the constant celebrating of the LGBTQ community. Go be whoever you want. I really don’t care. But I don’t attend church to celebrate you and your cause. I go there to worship Christ and this LGBTQ issue has, in my opinion, taken the focus off of Christ.

Well lucky for you, you can have your hate church back.

One thing this will be good for is forcing the bigots to own it openly.

DP. Your attitude is why I also left a liberal Protestant Church. It’s “hate” if you think the focus of Christianity should be on, you know, Christianity and not cheerleading in the culture wars and for political causes? Okay, enjoy your LGBT advocacy organization that you call church? Why not just get yourself a job at the Human Rights Campaign?

Hmm. Does this apply to conservative issues, too? Because I grew up Catholic and remember the our parish selling cupcakes to represent the millions of “babies murdered by abortion each year”, chartering a bus to the pro life march, charting a bus to go lobby representatives at the state capital when bills related to abortion came up, etc. Okay, enjoy your anti-abortion advocacy organization that you call church? Why not just get yourself a job at Live Action?

[Anonymous]

I’m a minister. Watching this unfold has been interesting. Churches across the country are hemorrhaging members. People are waking up. They are seeing through the expensive stained glass, silver plates, and bad combovers. They are exhausted by one sex scandal after another. They are confused by the cult-like support of a “president “ who is literally the complete opposite of everything Christ taught.

Organized religion isn’t being destroyed by liberals. It’s being destroyed from within by hypocrites, bigots, and racists who are so very unlike the Christ they claim to follow. And it’s being replaced by a deeper understanding of what all great spiritual leaders taught - compassion, inclusivity, tolerance, and love. Religion is dying but spirituality is not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand the breakaways. It’s the same for a Anglicans who “broke away” from the Episcopal church. The church leadership set the existing policies, and there are a million other churches and denominations that don’t like women and/or gay people. Go there if that’s your thing, because fundamentally that’s what it’s about.

I left the Methodist Church two years because I got sick of the constant celebrating of the LGBTQ community. Go be whoever you want. I really don’t care. But I don’t attend church to celebrate you and your cause. I go there to worship Christ and this LGBTQ issue has, in my opinion, taken the focus off of Christ.

Well lucky for you, you can have your hate church back.

One thing this will be good for is forcing the bigots to own it openly.

DP. Your attitude is why I also left a liberal Protestant Church. It’s “hate” if you think the focus of Christianity should be on, you know, Christianity and not cheerleading in the culture wars and for political causes? Okay, enjoy your LGBT advocacy organization that you call church? Why not just get yourself a job at the Human Rights Campaign?

Hmm. Does this apply to conservative issues, too? Because I grew up Catholic and remember the our parish selling cupcakes to represent the millions of “babies murdered by abortion each year”, chartering a bus to the pro life march, charting a bus to go lobby representatives at the state capital when bills related to abortion came up, etc. Okay, enjoy your anti-abortion advocacy organization that you call church? Why not just get yourself a job at Live Action?

There are some progressive Catholic churches out there if you can find one. Try a Jesuit parish if you there is one near you. When I lived n NYC I was close to an amazing Catholic church. IT was more then 50 percent gay, probably 75 percent. I think it was a lot of theater folks..the choir was unbelievable. Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what the future holds for the UMC. If they go the route of Episcopal churches, then it will be a slow death. Is liberalism the death of many mainline Protestant churches? I see so many beautiful and historical churches with empty seats. It seems like many mainline Christian denominations are loosing membership besides their converts in Africa and in Asia. However, mega conservative churches and prosperity preaching churches are growing like weeds all over the country.

I began witnessing the division of the UMC 22 years ago. I am just surprised that it took this long for a schism to occur.

I think it will follow the trend of the divided Presbyterians — the conservative PCA is thriving while the liberal PCUSA is losing members.

I actually think that traditional UM churches are likely to thrive outside of the US and wither here in the US. I think the mainline (liberal) UMC here in the US will thrive. Conservative UMC members are more likely to be older and there are fewer and fewer younger conservative UMC members. I believe that the more liberal mainline UMC here in the US will grow as more younger members will transfer or will find more liberal parishes and be more likely to participate after college in a more liberal parish. In about 20-30 years, I expect that you will be hard pressed to find a traditional UMC outside the Midwest and probably not to many of them even there.

At the general conference that passed the Traditional plan, 53% vote for the Traditional plan and 47% vote against. 41% of the voters were from outside the US with 30%, so about 75% of the non-American contingent, from Africa (which was almost 100%) for the Traditional plan. The US contingent was about 2/3 in support of the more liberal One Church Plan.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2019/february/united-methodist-lgbt-vote-conference-plan.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand the breakaways. It’s the same for a Anglicans who “broke away” from the Episcopal church. The church leadership set the existing policies, and there are a million other churches and denominations that don’t like women and/or gay people. Go there if that’s your thing, because fundamentally that’s what it’s about.

I left the Methodist Church two years because I got sick of the constant celebrating of the LGBTQ community. Go be whoever you want. I really don’t care. But I don’t attend church to celebrate you and your cause. I go there to worship Christ and this LGBTQ issue has, in my opinion, taken the focus off of Christ.

Well lucky for you, you can have your hate church back.

One thing this will be good for is forcing the bigots to own it openly.

DP. Your attitude is why I also left a liberal Protestant Church. It’s “hate” if you think the focus of Christianity should be on, you know, Christianity and not cheerleading in the culture wars and for political causes? Okay, enjoy your LGBT advocacy organization that you call church? Why not just get yourself a job at the Human Rights Campaign?

Hmm. Does this apply to conservative issues, too? Because I grew up Catholic and remember the our parish selling cupcakes to represent the millions of “babies murdered by abortion each year”, chartering a bus to the pro life march, charting a bus to go lobby representatives at the state capital when bills related to abortion came up, etc. Okay, enjoy your anti-abortion advocacy organization that you call church? Why not just get yourself a job at Live Action?

There are some progressive Catholic churches out there if you can find one. Try a Jesuit parish if you there is one near you. When I lived n NYC I was close to an amazing Catholic church. IT was more then 50 percent gay, probably 75 percent. I think it was a lot of theater folks..the choir was unbelievable. Good luck.

+1. And for the record abortion is absolutely not the focus of my Catholic parish. Whereas when I was going to a liberal Protestant Church, political issues came up ALL the time. Political candidates even CAME TO SPEAK. It was ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand the breakaways. It’s the same for a Anglicans who “broke away” from the Episcopal church. The church leadership set the existing policies, and there are a million other churches and denominations that don’t like women and/or gay people. Go there if that’s your thing, because fundamentally that’s what it’s about.

I left the Methodist Church two years because I got sick of the constant celebrating of the LGBTQ community. Go be whoever you want. I really don’t care. But I don’t attend church to celebrate you and your cause. I go there to worship Christ and this LGBTQ issue has, in my opinion, taken the focus off of Christ.

Well lucky for you, you can have your hate church back.

One thing this will be good for is forcing the bigots to own it openly.

DP. Your attitude is why I also left a liberal Protestant Church. It’s “hate” if you think the focus of Christianity should be on, you know, Christianity and not cheerleading in the culture wars and for political causes? Okay, enjoy your LGBT advocacy organization that you call church? Why not just get yourself a job at the Human Rights Campaign?

Hmm. Does this apply to conservative issues, too? Because I grew up Catholic and remember the our parish selling cupcakes to represent the millions of “babies murdered by abortion each year”, chartering a bus to the pro life march, charting a bus to go lobby representatives at the state capital when bills related to abortion came up, etc. Okay, enjoy your anti-abortion advocacy organization that you call church? Why not just get yourself a job at Live Action?

I’m the PP you’re responding to. That’s all well and good but I’m not denouncing you for “hating” me, okay? Do whatever you want. Just leave me be.

[Anonymous]

I left mainline liberal Protestantism because I felt like it didn't stand for anything, so why bother? There was no G-d anywhere. It was all about feeling good and everything goes and change whatever you want based on your own thoughts or feelings. Never mind what the Bible might say, it's just a bunch of stories written by people, so feel free to ignore anything you don't like. Even basic doctrine. Premarital sex? Go for it, it's modern times, who needs any silly old-fashioned standards. Believe in Jesus or don't be saved? Meh, that's not nice, it probably doesn't mean that, paganism is odd but as long as they're kind, whatever, they'll be fine! Those evangelicals are fundamentalist weirdos.

It made me crazy. No standards, no serious respect for the Bible, nothing is ever not OK because that's being judgmental and those in glass houses etc. Never mind what G-d wants or says, just do what feels right. That's fine, but it's worshiping yourself, not G-d. Don't call it religion. Be secular and own that.

So I left. Mainline liberal Protestantism has become so open that everything has fallen out. And people sense it. That's why they leave. They either abandon church entirely, because why bother to waste your Sunday mornings with a storybook that nobody actually believes in or follows, or go to a more conservative church. And it's not just mainline Protestant churches--the only branch of Judaism that is growing is Orthodox. People are either going more religious or giving it up completely and the middle ground is disappearing. Being wishy-washy about everything does not hold the allegiance of followers. People want something
firm to believe in, or not believe at all. The numbers tell the story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m a minister. Watching this unfold has been interesting. Churches across the country are hemorrhaging members. People are waking up. They are seeing through the expensive stained glass, silver plates, and bad combovers. They are exhausted by one sex scandal after another. They are confused by the cult-like support of a “president “ who is literally the complete opposite of everything Christ taught.

Organized religion isn’t being destroyed by liberals. It’s being destroyed from within by hypocrites, bigots, and racists who are so very unlike the Christ they claim to follow. And it’s being replaced by a deeper understanding of what all great spiritual leaders taught - compassion, inclusivity, tolerance, and love. Religion is dying but spirituality is not.

Um, okay, Mr. UU, thanks for chiming in. “Spirituality” is not going to save us. Jesus will.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what the future holds for the UMC. If they go the route of Episcopal churches, then it will be a slow death. Is liberalism the death of many mainline Protestant churches? I see so many beautiful and historical churches with empty seats. It seems like many mainline Christian denominations are loosing membership besides their converts in Africa and in Asia. However, mega conservative churches and prosperity preaching churches are growing like weeds all over the country.

I began witnessing the division of the UMC 22 years ago. I am just surprised that it took this long for a schism to occur.

I think it will follow the trend of the divided Presbyterians — the conservative PCA is thriving while the liberal PCUSA is losing members.

I actually think that traditional UM churches are likely to thrive outside of the US and wither here in the US. I think the mainline (liberal) UMC here in the US will thrive. Conservative UMC members are more likely to be older and there are fewer and fewer younger conservative UMC members. I believe that the more liberal mainline UMC here in the US will grow as more younger members will transfer or will find more liberal parishes and be more likely to participate after college in a more liberal parish. In about 20-30 years, I expect that you will be hard pressed to find a traditional UMC outside the Midwest and probably not to many of them even there.

At the general conference that passed the Traditional plan, 53% vote for the Traditional plan and 47% vote against. 41% of the voters were from outside the US with 30%, so about 75% of the non-American contingent, from Africa (which was almost 100%) for the Traditional plan. The US contingent was about 2/3 in support of the more liberal One Church Plan.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2019/february/united-methodist-lgbt-vote-conference-plan.html

That may be true but the vast majority of Methodists a generation from now will be overseas...