5th year biglaw associate, golden handcuffed and miserable

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Your DH is about to make partner and you live in a 500k home. Just relax! Take your maternity leave and then take that 85k/year 9-5 job. It will be fine for you guys financially.

As others have pointed out, just because partnership tells him he's doing well and ontrack does not mean it's fated, and just because someone makes partner at a small firm does not mean all of a family's financial needs are set.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been applying to smaller firms where I think I'd be happier but haven't gotten an offer in the range of what I could accept. I'm deeply dreading going back tomorrow. I hate my firm, it's a terrible fit. I didn't come close to hours last year, so I am sure the dissatisfaction is mutual. Also, I'm pregnant, so it's not a great time for job hunting. Would really appreciate some words of wisdom.

OP I'm a 9th year, also a general litigator, and about to leave big law because I'm not going to make partner. When I started looking for jobs, the salary ranges were SHOCKING compared to biglaw. Seriously. Govt is $164k for a GS 15-10 and in-house has been in the $135-145k range. Prepare yourself for a major pay cut. Initially I said I wouldn't accept anything under $200k but the reality is that you'd be lucky to leave a large law firm and still make that much, especially in the D.C. area. What salary range are you looking for?

If I were you, I would aggressively look for a job with the goal of making a move after your maternity leave. Take advantage of the maternity leave at your current job, for sure.

I’m not sure why it’s so “shocking” - if you did any research whatsoever you’d see that biglaw salaries are a complete anomaly in the legal profession.

I'm also not sure why this is shocking. Everyone knows this is the case.

OP, you need to figure out exactly how much money you can accept (I'm guessing a LOT less than you think) and PRAY you get considered for a fed or in-house job that pays that. Your husband is about to make partner? Is this your first kid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just want to note how hilariously high the views are for this thread (versus not all that many people actually responding to OP). There are obviously a lot of miserable biglaw associates lurking.

Checking in.

I think there are plenty of people like me here too. Truly middle class people (our HHI's right around 100K) who have a certain fascination with the BigLaw phenomena.

It's just about different desires for life. Nothing is "right" or "wrong"

I left Biglaw five years ago as a seventh-year, being told that I was a "shoe-in" for partner, though really, you never know until you actually get partnership, and even then, you have to fight like hell to build your book of business. I was miserable in Biglaw, and I had two kids who I never saw. I went to a non-GS federal agency, and my husband also works at one. We make about 350k/year, and that seems like bucketloads of money to us, even though we have student loans, childcare, etc. We are able to go on vacations (not Aspen skiing or Europe first-class, but we have fun). We drive six-year-old Subarus, not Lexus and BMW. But we also can stagger our schedules so we can drop off and pick up our kids from school, have dinner together every night, etc. To me, that's more important than fancy cars, private schools, and expensive vacations, but I completely understand why others would not want to make that tradeoff.

That sounds wonderful.

This does sound wonderful. But $350k/year for 2 feds seems like a really unusual salary... so you both are extremely lucky to have such high paying fed jobs...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been applying to smaller firms where I think I'd be happier but haven't gotten an offer in the range of what I could accept. I'm deeply dreading going back tomorrow. I hate my firm, it's a terrible fit. I didn't come close to hours last year, so I am sure the dissatisfaction is mutual. Also, I'm pregnant, so it's not a great time for job hunting. Would really appreciate some words of wisdom.

OP I'm a 9th year, also a general litigator, and about to leave big law because I'm not going to make partner. When I started looking for jobs, the salary ranges were SHOCKING compared to biglaw. Seriously. Govt is $164k for a GS 15-10 and in-house has been in the $135-145k range. Prepare yourself for a major pay cut. Initially I said I wouldn't accept anything under $200k but the reality is that you'd be lucky to leave a large law firm and still make that much, especially in the D.C. area. What salary range are you looking for?

If I were you, I would aggressively look for a job with the goal of making a move after your maternity leave. Take advantage of the maternity leave at your current job, for sure.

I’m not sure why it’s so “shocking” - if you did any research whatsoever you’d see that biglaw salaries are a complete anomaly in the legal profession.

I'm also not sure why this is shocking. Everyone knows this is the case.

OP, you need to figure out exactly how much money you can accept (I'm guessing a LOT less than you think) and PRAY you get considered for a fed or in-house job that pays that. Your husband is about to make partner? Is this your first kid?

No, not our first.

[Anonymous]

I find these pay-cut posts interesting. If a departing biglaw associate wanted to maximize her earning, even at the expense of hours and interesting work, how much could she realistically hope to make in her next job?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find these pay-cut posts interesting. If a departing biglaw associate wanted to maximize her earning, even at the expense of hours and interesting work, how much could she realistically hope to make in her next job?

There is no clear-cut answer to this question. As mentioned above, the Biglaw salaries are not the norm in any profession (someone right out of school with little to no real world experience making upwards of 200k including bonus?!?!?). Everyone who goes into it knows they'll likely take paycut coming out. It's often done to pay off loans and/or get good work on your resume, though those who want to go in-house often find they're competing with applicants who have more real-world legal experience and are therefore more sought after.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find these pay-cut posts interesting. If a departing biglaw associate wanted to maximize her earning, even at the expense of hours and interesting work, how much could she realistically hope to make in her next job?

There's no one number. I know people who've been able to break in house at investment banks (NYC) and pharma companies (NJ) for 200k+ -- all senior associates and actual in house legal, not compliance. I know people who've gone to the fed gov't for 160k and 2 yrs later are making 180k (non GS obviously - pay and raises are different). I've known people who've gone to regional law firms (Long Island/NJ) for 150k. But then there's all the others -- 80k offers at small firms; 60-70k at non profits; gov't jobs in the 110k-130k range with GS agencies; I can't imagine these people wouldn't have wanted the 150k+ jobs -- it's often about what's available at the time you're looking in addition to your ability to relocate if your city is saturated/slow -- which DC is right now esp due to the gov't freeze.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been applying to smaller firms where I think I'd be happier but haven't gotten an offer in the range of what I could accept. I'm deeply dreading going back tomorrow. I hate my firm, it's a terrible fit. I didn't come close to hours last year, so I am sure the dissatisfaction is mutual. Also, I'm pregnant, so it's not a great time for job hunting. Would really appreciate some words of wisdom.

OP I'm a 9th year, also a general litigator, and about to leave big law because I'm not going to make partner. When I started looking for jobs, the salary ranges were SHOCKING compared to biglaw. Seriously. Govt is $164k for a GS 15-10 and in-house has been in the $135-145k range. Prepare yourself for a major pay cut. Initially I said I wouldn't accept anything under $200k but the reality is that you'd be lucky to leave a large law firm and still make that much, especially in the D.C. area. What salary range are you looking for?

If I were you, I would aggressively look for a job with the goal of making a move after your maternity leave. Take advantage of the maternity leave at your current job, for sure.

I was in the same situation as you about 2 yrs ago and landed at a gov't agency -- non GS, making 1st yr associate money (w/o the bonus). You must have realized that the biglaw pay scales have gotten way way out of whack and no other part of the industry is going to move their scale the same way bc biglaw did? I started way back in the day at 125k, within 1 yr the scale had shifted up to make 145k as first yrs, then 2 yrs later 160k; then the crash comes and a few yrs later 180k. Did you not find that crazy? Esp. given the fact that MOST (not all) firms are just not that busy -- not like they were in 2005-2007 pre-recession -- they just haven't gotten back to that level of work and probably never will, but they are driving up their rate, trying hard to hold onto clients -- sometimes successfully, sometimes not -- but feeling pressured to pay more bc Cravath has had no struggle finding work and raising its rates and can pay more, so Akin and Orrick think they must. Now I'm at a point though where every once in a while I'll have a discussion re in-house and I have to think twice bc in some cases, it would be a pay cut from my gov't salary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:https://goo.gl/images/Zeax86

The world's smallest violin just broke playing the world's saddest song just for you, OP,!

+1

This is ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been applying to smaller firms where I think I'd be happier but haven't gotten an offer in the range of what I could accept. I'm deeply dreading going back tomorrow. I hate my firm, it's a terrible fit. I didn't come close to hours last year, so I am sure the dissatisfaction is mutual. Also, I'm pregnant, so it's not a great time for job hunting. Would really appreciate some words of wisdom.

OP I'm a 9th year, also a general litigator, and about to leave big law because I'm not going to make partner. When I started looking for jobs, the salary ranges were SHOCKING compared to biglaw. Seriously. Govt is $164k for a GS 15-10 and in-house has been in the $135-145k range. Prepare yourself for a major pay cut. Initially I said I wouldn't accept anything under $200k but the reality is that you'd be lucky to leave a large law firm and still make that much, especially in the D.C. area. What salary range are you looking for?

If I were you, I would aggressively look for a job with the goal of making a move after your maternity leave. Take advantage of the maternity leave at your current job, for sure.

I was in the same situation as you about 2 yrs ago and landed at a gov't agency -- non GS, making 1st yr associate money (w/o the bonus). You must have realized that the biglaw pay scales have gotten way way out of whack and no other part of the industry is going to move their scale the same way bc biglaw did? I started way back in the day at 125k, within 1 yr the scale had shifted up to make 145k as first yrs, then 2 yrs later 160k; then the crash comes and a few yrs later 180k. Did you not find that crazy? Esp. given the fact that MOST (not all) firms are just not that busy -- not like they were in 2005-2007 pre-recession -- they just haven't gotten back to that level of work and probably never will, but they are driving up their rate, trying hard to hold onto clients -- sometimes successfully, sometimes not -- but feeling pressured to pay more bc Cravath has had no struggle finding work and raising its rates and can pay more, so Akin and Orrick think they must. Now I'm at a point though where every once in a while I'll have a discussion re in-house and I have to think twice bc in some cases, it would be a pay cut from my gov't salary.

Maybe this is just my small sample size but a few in house interviews I've had -- I've found that in house outside of DC appears to pay more than in DC. Kind of expected that from NYC finance driven companies esp given the higher NYC COL, but that was even true at a place I considered in Richmond and a friend had the same experience when leaving NYC biglaw to go in house in Memphis Tenn. I wonder if it's just a supply/demand issue -- all jobs were at HQ of major companies and all were positions open to former biglaw litigators.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been applying to smaller firms where I think I'd be happier but haven't gotten an offer in the range of what I could accept. I'm deeply dreading going back tomorrow. I hate my firm, it's a terrible fit. I didn't come close to hours last year, so I am sure the dissatisfaction is mutual. Also, I'm pregnant, so it's not a great time for job hunting. Would really appreciate some words of wisdom.

OP I'm a 9th year, also a general litigator, and about to leave big law because I'm not going to make partner. When I started looking for jobs, the salary ranges were SHOCKING compared to biglaw. Seriously. Govt is $164k for a GS 15-10 and in-house has been in the $135-145k range. Prepare yourself for a major pay cut. Initially I said I wouldn't accept anything under $200k but the reality is that you'd be lucky to leave a large law firm and still make that much, especially in the D.C. area. What salary range are you looking for?

If I were you, I would aggressively look for a job with the goal of making a move after your maternity leave. Take advantage of the maternity leave at your current job, for sure.

I was in the same situation as you about 2 yrs ago and landed at a gov't agency -- non GS, making 1st yr associate money (w/o the bonus). You must have realized that the biglaw pay scales have gotten way way out of whack and no other part of the industry is going to move their scale the same way bc biglaw did? I started way back in the day at 125k, within 1 yr the scale had shifted up to make 145k as first yrs, then 2 yrs later 160k; then the crash comes and a few yrs later 180k. Did you not find that crazy? Esp. given the fact that MOST (not all) firms are just not that busy -- not like they were in 2005-2007 pre-recession -- they just haven't gotten back to that level of work and probably never will, but they are driving up their rate, trying hard to hold onto clients -- sometimes successfully, sometimes not -- but feeling pressured to pay more bc Cravath has had no struggle finding work and raising its rates and can pay more, so Akin and Orrick think they must. Now I'm at a point though where every once in a while I'll have a discussion re in-house and I have to think twice bc in some cases, it would be a pay cut from my gov't salary.

Maybe this is just my small sample size but a few in house interviews I've had -- I've found that in house outside of DC appears to pay more than in DC. Kind of expected that from NYC finance driven companies esp given the higher NYC COL, but that was even true at a place I considered in Richmond and a friend had the same experience when leaving NYC biglaw to go in house in Memphis Tenn. I wonder if it's just a supply/demand issue -- all jobs were at HQ of major companies and all were positions open to former biglaw litigators.

This would not surprise me. One thing I've learned from DCUM is that the DMV has a glut of lawyers like OP, who feel stuck here, but no longer want to do BigLaw for family reasons. So, Memphis has to pay more to lure her to move, while DC can bet on her spouse's job and the feeling of being in the center of the world to make her take less.

[Anonymous]

I’m loving all these “just go be a fed” words of advice lol. Take it from someone doing hiring as an an attorney for a federal agency, nobody wants to hire some entitled, no experience, I command 200k salary noob. If you wanted public service then you better show you’ve been dedicated to public service.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m loving all these “just go be a fed” words of advice lol. Take it from someone doing hiring as an an attorney for a federal agency, nobody wants to hire some entitled, no experience, I command 200k salary noob. If you wanted public service then you better show you’ve been dedicated to public service.

I have lots of very solid experience including many deps and tons of pro bono work, but Fed isn't hiring anyway so what does it matter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been applying to smaller firms where I think I'd be happier but haven't gotten an offer in the range of what I could accept. I'm deeply dreading going back tomorrow. I hate my firm, it's a terrible fit. I didn't come close to hours last year, so I am sure the dissatisfaction is mutual. Also, I'm pregnant, so it's not a great time for job hunting. Would really appreciate some words of wisdom.

OP I'm a 9th year, also a general litigator, and about to leave big law because I'm not going to make partner. When I started looking for jobs, the salary ranges were SHOCKING compared to biglaw. Seriously. Govt is $164k for a GS 15-10 and in-house has been in the $135-145k range. Prepare yourself for a major pay cut. Initially I said I wouldn't accept anything under $200k but the reality is that you'd be lucky to leave a large law firm and still make that much, especially in the D.C. area. What salary range are you looking for?

If I were you, I would aggressively look for a job with the goal of making a move after your maternity leave. Take advantage of the maternity leave at your current job, for sure.

I was in the same situation as you about 2 yrs ago and landed at a gov't agency -- non GS, making 1st yr associate money (w/o the bonus). You must have realized that the biglaw pay scales have gotten way way out of whack and no other part of the industry is going to move their scale the same way bc biglaw did? I started way back in the day at 125k, within 1 yr the scale had shifted up to make 145k as first yrs, then 2 yrs later 160k; then the crash comes and a few yrs later 180k. Did you not find that crazy? Esp. given the fact that MOST (not all) firms are just not that busy -- not like they were in 2005-2007 pre-recession -- they just haven't gotten back to that level of work and probably never will, but they are driving up their rate, trying hard to hold onto clients -- sometimes successfully, sometimes not -- but feeling pressured to pay more bc Cravath has had no struggle finding work and raising its rates and can pay more, so Akin and Orrick think they must. Now I'm at a point though where every once in a while I'll have a discussion re in-house and I have to think twice bc in some cases, it would be a pay cut from my gov't salary.

Maybe this is just my small sample size but a few in house interviews I've had -- I've found that in house outside of DC appears to pay more than in DC. Kind of expected that from NYC finance driven companies esp given the higher NYC COL, but that was even true at a place I considered in Richmond and a friend had the same experience when leaving NYC biglaw to go in house in Memphis Tenn. I wonder if it's just a supply/demand issue -- all jobs were at HQ of major companies and all were positions open to former biglaw litigators.

This would not surprise me. One thing I've learned from DCUM is that the DMV has a glut of lawyers like OP, who feel stuck here, but no longer want to do BigLaw for family reasons. So, Memphis has to pay more to lure her to move, while DC can bet on her spouse's job and the feeling of being in the center of the world to make her take less.

Yet NYC is the center of the world and they don't expect you to take less? Though I wonder if at their COL they realize that if they underpay, people including those with DHs salary will walk bc it takes 2 larger salaries for a certain standard of living there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been applying to smaller firms where I think I'd be happier but haven't gotten an offer in the range of what I could accept. I'm deeply dreading going back tomorrow. I hate my firm, it's a terrible fit. I didn't come close to hours last year, so I am sure the dissatisfaction is mutual. Also, I'm pregnant, so it's not a great time for job hunting. Would really appreciate some words of wisdom.

OP I'm a 9th year, also a general litigator, and about to leave big law because I'm not going to make partner. When I started looking for jobs, the salary ranges were SHOCKING compared to biglaw. Seriously. Govt is $164k for a GS 15-10 and in-house has been in the $135-145k range. Prepare yourself for a major pay cut. Initially I said I wouldn't accept anything under $200k but the reality is that you'd be lucky to leave a large law firm and still make that much, especially in the D.C. area. What salary range are you looking for?

If I were you, I would aggressively look for a job with the goal of making a move after your maternity leave. Take advantage of the maternity leave at your current job, for sure.

I was in the same situation as you about 2 yrs ago and landed at a gov't agency -- non GS, making 1st yr associate money (w/o the bonus). You must have realized that the biglaw pay scales have gotten way way out of whack and no other part of the industry is going to move their scale the same way bc biglaw did? I started way back in the day at 125k, within 1 yr the scale had shifted up to make 145k as first yrs, then 2 yrs later 160k; then the crash comes and a few yrs later 180k. Did you not find that crazy? Esp. given the fact that MOST (not all) firms are just not that busy -- not like they were in 2005-2007 pre-recession -- they just haven't gotten back to that level of work and probably never will, but they are driving up their rate, trying hard to hold onto clients -- sometimes successfully, sometimes not -- but feeling pressured to pay more bc Cravath has had no struggle finding work and raising its rates and can pay more, so Akin and Orrick think they must. Now I'm at a point though where every once in a while I'll have a discussion re in-house and I have to think twice bc in some cases, it would be a pay cut from my gov't salary.

Maybe this is just my small sample size but a few in house interviews I've had -- I've found that in house outside of DC appears to pay more than in DC. Kind of expected that from NYC finance driven companies esp given the higher NYC COL, but that was even true at a place I considered in Richmond and a friend had the same experience when leaving NYC biglaw to go in house in Memphis Tenn. I wonder if it's just a supply/demand issue -- all jobs were at HQ of major companies and all were positions open to former biglaw litigators.

This would not surprise me. One thing I've learned from DCUM is that the DMV has a glut of lawyers like OP, who feel stuck here, but no longer want to do BigLaw for family reasons. So, Memphis has to pay more to lure her to move, while DC can bet on her spouse's job and the feeling of being in the center of the world to make her take less.

Yet NYC is the center of the world and they don't expect you to take less? Though I wonder if at their COL they realize that if they underpay, people including those with DHs salary will walk bc it takes 2 larger salaries for a certain standard of living there.

1. That's NY. COL is a lot higher.
2. It would not surprise me to find out that there are MORE lawyers per available position in DC than in NY. The federal gov't is here.
3. My friend, who got out of BigLaw in NYC, lives like the academics I know, except that she owns her two-bedroom apartment in Brooklyn rather than rents. She is clearly not making NYC-lawyer bank.
4. I would guess that the stratosphere of law money in NYC is higher than it is here in DC, thus making high, but normal, salaries seem more reasonable.

What's it like in SF? Similar COL to NY, but not in lawyer central, despite Boalt and Standford.