5th year biglaw associate, golden handcuffed and miserable

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been applying to smaller firms where I think I'd be happier but haven't gotten an offer in the range of what I could accept. I'm deeply dreading going back tomorrow. I hate my firm, it's a terrible fit. I didn't come close to hours last year, so I am sure the dissatisfaction is mutual. Also, I'm pregnant, so it's not a great time for job hunting. Would really appreciate some words of wisdom.

If you are stressed out while pregnant, you should go on leave or switch jobs even if it pays less, before your baby is affected by the stress. I went on leave at 4 months from a stressful job, no regrets and my DC was born healthy. I was afraid of neuro problems from the stress.

I'm not aware of any research that supports the idea that stressed but wealthy women have kids with neuro issues. All I've seen was also associated with being low income.

Clinical studies link pregnant women’s exposure to a range of traumatic, as well as chronic and common life stressors (i.e., bereavement, job stress, daily hassles, and earthquake), to significant alterations in children’s neurodevelopment, including increased risk for mixed handedness, autism, affective disorders, and reduced cognitive ability[6]. More recently, maternal antenatal anxiety and/or depression have been shown to predict increased risk for neurodevelopmental disorders in children, and to confer risk for future mental illness. Reports show that elevated levels of antenatal depression and anxiety are associated with poor emotional adjustment in young children [7]. The impact of women’s anxiety (and/or depression) during pregnancy has been found to extend into childhood and adolescence, as well as to affect the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis, predicting attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) symptoms in 8–9 year old children [8]as well as alterations in HPA axis activation in 4 month olds in our laboratory [9] and in 10 [10], and 14–15 year olds [11]. The majority of these studies have controlled for women’s postnatal mood, as well as other demographic factors, yet the possibility that the women’s’ antenatal mood is a marker for qualities in the postnatal environment that affect child development cannot be ruled out. What these data suggest is that, in addition to the known pathways for the familial transmission of risk for mental illness, genetics, environment, and gene X environment interactions, there is another possibility: that some of the risk is conferred prenatally via changes in women’s mood–based physiology affecting fetal neurobehavioral development.

Let’s not hijack this thread with a sanctimommy debate. Please and thank you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been applying to smaller firms where I think I'd be happier but haven't gotten an offer in the range of what I could accept. I'm deeply dreading going back tomorrow. I hate my firm, it's a terrible fit. I didn't come close to hours last year, so I am sure the dissatisfaction is mutual. Also, I'm pregnant, so it's not a great time for job hunting. Would really appreciate some words of wisdom.

If you are stressed out while pregnant, you should go on leave or switch jobs even if it pays less, before your baby is affected by the stress. I went on leave at 4 months from a stressful job, no regrets and my DC was born healthy. I was afraid of neuro problems from the stress.

I'm not aware of any research that supports the idea that stressed but wealthy women have kids with neuro issues. All I've seen was also associated with being low income.

Clinical studies link pregnant women’s exposure to a range of traumatic, as well as chronic and common life stressors (i.e., bereavement, job stress, daily hassles, and earthquake), to significant alterations in children’s neurodevelopment, including increased risk for mixed handedness, autism, affective disorders, and reduced cognitive ability[6]. More recently, maternal antenatal anxiety and/or depression have been shown to predict increased risk for neurodevelopmental disorders in children, and to confer risk for future mental illness. Reports show that elevated levels of antenatal depression and anxiety are associated with poor emotional adjustment in young children [7]. The impact of women’s anxiety (and/or depression) during pregnancy has been found to extend into childhood and adolescence, as well as to affect the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis, predicting attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) symptoms in 8–9 year old children [8]as well as alterations in HPA axis activation in 4 month olds in our laboratory [9] and in 10 [10], and 14–15 year olds [11]. The majority of these studies have controlled for women’s postnatal mood, as well as other demographic factors, yet the possibility that the women’s’ antenatal mood is a marker for qualities in the postnatal environment that affect child development cannot be ruled out. What these data suggest is that, in addition to the known pathways for the familial transmission of risk for mental illness, genetics, environment, and gene X environment interactions, there is another possibility: that some of the risk is conferred prenatally via changes in women’s mood–based physiology affecting fetal neurobehavioral development.

Let’s not hijack this thread with a sanctimommy debate. Please and thank you.

It's relevant to a career decision while pregnant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been applying to smaller firms where I think I'd be happier but haven't gotten an offer in the range of what I could accept. I'm deeply dreading going back tomorrow. I hate my firm, it's a terrible fit. I didn't come close to hours last year, so I am sure the dissatisfaction is mutual. Also, I'm pregnant, so it's not a great time for job hunting. Would really appreciate some words of wisdom.

If you are stressed out while pregnant, you should go on leave or switch jobs even if it pays less, before your baby is affected by the stress. I went on leave at 4 months from a stressful job, no regrets and my DC was born healthy. I was afraid of neuro problems from the stress.

I'm not aware of any research that supports the idea that stressed but wealthy women have kids with neuro issues. All I've seen was also associated with being low income.

Clinical studies link pregnant women’s exposure to a range of traumatic, as well as chronic and common life stressors (i.e., bereavement, job stress, daily hassles, and earthquake), to significant alterations in children’s neurodevelopment, including increased risk for mixed handedness, autism, affective disorders, and reduced cognitive ability[6]. More recently, maternal antenatal anxiety and/or depression have been shown to predict increased risk for neurodevelopmental disorders in children, and to confer risk for future mental illness. Reports show that elevated levels of antenatal depression and anxiety are associated with poor emotional adjustment in young children [7]. The impact of women’s anxiety (and/or depression) during pregnancy has been found to extend into childhood and adolescence, as well as to affect the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis, predicting attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) symptoms in 8–9 year old children [8]as well as alterations in HPA axis activation in 4 month olds in our laboratory [9] and in 10 [10], and 14–15 year olds [11]. The majority of these studies have controlled for women’s postnatal mood, as well as other demographic factors, yet the possibility that the women’s’ antenatal mood is a marker for qualities in the postnatal environment that affect child development cannot be ruled out. What these data suggest is that, in addition to the known pathways for the familial transmission of risk for mental illness, genetics, environment, and gene X environment interactions, there is another possibility: that some of the risk is conferred prenatally via changes in women’s mood–based physiology affecting fetal neurobehavioral development.

I wonder what your mother did when you were in utero that lead to you being the sort of person that would copy and paste a paragraph that once had citations... without carrying over the citations.

Also, this doesn't remotely support what you claim it does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been applying to smaller firms where I think I'd be happier but haven't gotten an offer in the range of what I could accept. I'm deeply dreading going back tomorrow. I hate my firm, it's a terrible fit. I didn't come close to hours last year, so I am sure the dissatisfaction is mutual. Also, I'm pregnant, so it's not a great time for job hunting. Would really appreciate some words of wisdom.

If you are stressed out while pregnant, you should go on leave or switch jobs even if it pays less, before your baby is affected by the stress. I went on leave at 4 months from a stressful job, no regrets and my DC was born healthy. I was afraid of neuro problems from the stress.

I'm not aware of any research that supports the idea that stressed but wealthy women have kids with neuro issues. All I've seen was also associated with being low income.

Clinical studies link pregnant women’s exposure to a range of traumatic, as well as chronic and common life stressors (i.e., bereavement, job stress, daily hassles, and earthquake), to significant alterations in children’s neurodevelopment, including increased risk for mixed handedness, autism, affective disorders, and reduced cognitive ability[6]. More recently, maternal antenatal anxiety and/or depression have been shown to predict increased risk for neurodevelopmental disorders in children, and to confer risk for future mental illness. Reports show that elevated levels of antenatal depression and anxiety are associated with poor emotional adjustment in young children [7]. The impact of women’s anxiety (and/or depression) during pregnancy has been found to extend into childhood and adolescence, as well as to affect the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis, predicting attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) symptoms in 8–9 year old children [8]as well as alterations in HPA axis activation in 4 month olds in our laboratory [9] and in 10 [10], and 14–15 year olds [11]. The majority of these studies have controlled for women’s postnatal mood, as well as other demographic factors, yet the possibility that the women’s’ antenatal mood is a marker for qualities in the postnatal environment that affect child development cannot be ruled out. What these data suggest is that, in addition to the known pathways for the familial transmission of risk for mental illness, genetics, environment, and gene X environment interactions, there is another possibility: that some of the risk is conferred prenatally via changes in women’s mood–based physiology affecting fetal neurobehavioral development.

I wonder what your mother did when you were in utero that lead to you being the sort of person that would copy and paste a paragraph that once had citations... without carrying over the citations.

Also, this doesn't remotely support what you claim it does.

You must have been fun to deal with as a law review editor. No blue booking needed on dcum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I left DC Biglaw as a 5th year for an in house litigation position at a large corporation a couple of years ago. I make $180k + 20% bonus.

That's actually quite good, even for DC standards. It would be even better if you received stock in your company and had an ESPP. Since you didn't mention these, presumably your company is large, but private. If this is the case, then you're either family-owned or VC-backed.

I do get stock too, though it takes several years to vest. I can't recall how much I get. It still seems like fake money until it vests.

It's fake money unless your company has a solid track record as a public company (i.e. decades), and also a dividend to boot. Unfortunately, companies with stable stock prices (or that are even publicly traded) aren't where the real money can be made. It's the pre-IPO company or one that's a likely buy out candidate. The problem is that those companies don't often have in-house counsel, and if they do, it's usually a GC and possibly a contracts manager, with everything else outsourced to outside counsel (chosen by the lead VC/PE firm with a cap on fees, etc...)

[Anonymous]

A thought about this recurring belief that in-house jobs are the holy grail: they very well may be. They also may be just as bad as biglaw, with a much lower salary.

In-house counsel jobs are cost centers. For those who were not practicing in 2008-10, in-house counsel jobs were frequently the targets of layoffs. And the terms of departure and severance are not nearly as generous for in-house jobs as they are for law firms.

I'm in-house, and I lucked out with a great GC and am far happier than when I was in biglaw. But I also know my job could disappear at any time, particularly after a bad earnings report.

[Anonymous]

Is this thread meant to make doc reviewers suicidal? I’m out of law school 16 years and couldn’t get any attorney job

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is this thread meant to make doc reviewers suicidal? I’m out of law school 16 years and couldn’t get any attorney job

Sorry. Law schools are the problem. I think that a fair market would have about half as many law school grads as the schools currently produce. But law schools continue to accept far too many students and drive them into 200k of debt. Even in today's strong economy, so many law school graduates have absolutely no shot at attorney jobs. It's a really sick system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A thought about this recurring belief that in-house jobs are the holy grail: they very well may be. They also may be just as bad as biglaw, with a much lower salary.

In-house counsel jobs are cost centers. For those who were not practicing in 2008-10, in-house counsel jobs were frequently the targets of layoffs. And the terms of departure and severance are not nearly as generous for in-house jobs as they are for law firms.

I'm in-house, and I lucked out with a great GC and am far happier than when I was in biglaw. But I also know my job could disappear at any time, particularly after a bad earnings report.

Yes. I only feel any job security in house because our department is so bare bones already. We're 60% smaller than we were 2 years ago. They can't cut me unless they're planning to replace me. Someone has to do my job for the company.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is this thread meant to make doc reviewers suicidal? I’m out of law school 16 years and couldn’t get any attorney job

Sorry. Law schools are the problem. I think that a fair market would have about half as many law school grads as the schools currently produce. But law schools continue to accept far too many students and drive them into 200k of debt. Even in today's strong economy, so many law school graduates have absolutely no shot at attorney jobs. It's a really sick system.

The medical profession was so much smarter to limit the number of doctors and keep demand high. WHen have you ever heard of an unemployed doctor?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A thought about this recurring belief that in-house jobs are the holy grail: they very well may be. They also may be just as bad as biglaw, with a much lower salary.

In-house counsel jobs are cost centers. For those who were not practicing in 2008-10, in-house counsel jobs were frequently the targets of layoffs. And the terms of departure and severance are not nearly as generous for in-house jobs as they are for law firms.

I'm in-house, and I lucked out with a great GC and am far happier than when I was in biglaw. But I also know my job could disappear at any time, particularly after a bad earnings report.

Yes. I only feel any job security in house because our department is so bare bones already. We're 60% smaller than we were 2 years ago. They can't cut me unless they're planning to replace me. Someone has to do my job for the company.

I bet some of the 60% felt that same way until they were let go. I have no doubt it would be shortsighted to not have anyone fill your role, or to outsource it, but bad decisions are often made when costs have to be cut.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is this thread meant to make doc reviewers suicidal? I’m out of law school 16 years and couldn’t get any attorney job

Sorry. Law schools are the problem. I think that a fair market would have about half as many law school grads as the schools currently produce. But law schools continue to accept far too many students and drive them into 200k of debt. Even in today's strong economy, so many law school graduates have absolutely no shot at attorney jobs. It's a really sick system.

The medical profession was so much smarter to limit the number of doctors and keep demand high. WHen have you ever heard of an unemployed doctor?

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is this thread meant to make doc reviewers suicidal? I’m out of law school 16 years and couldn’t get any attorney job

Sorry. Law schools are the problem. I think that a fair market would have about half as many law school grads as the schools currently produce. But law schools continue to accept far too many students and drive them into 200k of debt. Even in today's strong economy, so many law school graduates have absolutely no shot at attorney jobs. It's a really sick system.

The medical profession was so much smarter to limit the number of doctors and keep demand high. WHen have you ever heard of an unemployed doctor?

+1

I'm a lawyer and DH is a doctor. We started law/med school at the same time. At least based on our experiences, becoming a lawyer is FAR easier than becoming a doctor. Lawyers complain about the bar exam. That is nothing compared to the medical boards, residency, etc. If you do well at a good law school and become a biglaw partner (not an easy task, but also not impossible), you'll earn far more than the average doctor (obviously not a top plastic surgeon or cardiologist, but more than the average OB or pediatrician).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is this thread meant to make doc reviewers suicidal? I’m out of law school 16 years and couldn’t get any attorney job

Sorry. Law schools are the problem. I think that a fair market would have about half as many law school grads as the schools currently produce. But law schools continue to accept far too many students and drive them into 200k of debt. Even in today's strong economy, so many law school graduates have absolutely no shot at attorney jobs. It's a really sick system.

The medical profession was so much smarter to limit the number of doctors and keep demand high. WHen have you ever heard of an unemployed doctor?

+1

I'm a lawyer and DH is a doctor. We started law/med school at the same time. At least based on our experiences, becoming a lawyer is FAR easier than becoming a doctor. Lawyers complain about the bar exam. That is nothing compared to the medical boards, residency, etc. If you do well at a good law school and become a biglaw partner (not an easy task, but also not impossible), you'll earn far more than the average doctor (obviously not a top plastic surgeon or cardiologist, but more than the average OB or pediatrician).

I assume you won't need me to point out what's wrong with this sentence, but just in case: so the outlier doctor makes more than the outlier lawyer?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm the General Counsel at a small-ish govt contracts business-17 years out of law school and I only make 200k. You can't compare in house/govt salaries to big law. I would pay a junior attorney with just 4-5 years experience like you around 100k.

At that point I might as well hang a shingle and settle car accidents.

I’m in house at a large, but not F500, company in a major city (not East Coast). There are 15 lawyers in our dept and with bonuses, our starting pay is close to $200k. Our GC makes seven figures. We have an AGC that can hit seven figures on a really good year and several senior attorneys who earn around $300k.

Wow. What industry is this?

Energy. These salaries are pretty standard in this industry, even during the oil downturn.