Junior associate at Big Law -- help!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op don't be so quick to assume you can't make major changes in your life. You're in control of your life. I realize you have law school debt but as long as you can make the payments, that shouldn't stop you from changing careers. You sound miserable and should do something about it. Even if it means selling your house and moving into a rental. Selling cars. Do whatever it takes. You only live one life and this is no way to live it. I'd even apply for jobs in other cities. Do NOT have your spouse quit his job. No way.

You are so naive. I have a family member who sells cars and he works six days a week for ten to twelve hours a day for a pittance. And a lawyer can't just pick up and move to another city. It doesn't work like that. Not only is there the issue of being admitted to the bar, but law firms have a very strong preference for hiring people with local ties. Unless you have some in demand specialized expertise, no one will be interested in some random lawyer from another city. Plus the DC market is as good as it gets right now.

I think PP was saying to sell the cars to reduce expenses, not selling cars as a career; that would make sense with the line about selling your house.

It is difficult (not impossible) to move to another state but OP can move within the state where she's barred -- most DC lawyers are barred someplace else, and then waive into DC. Or she could change careers entirely and do something else, or stay home if her spouse was able to support them in a lower cost of living area. They need to figure out what their priorities are. Life is too short.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op back. I don't think I can go.to government. Opportunities are sparse on usajobs and I've applied for 6 months without a bite.

I also can't hire another nanny -- as a 3rd year with a lot of debt, we are barely making ends meet with one full time nanny.

Yes, I did think my firm would be more family friendly. I chose this firm because during the interview, every single MALE partner told me that he either did drop off or pick up every single day and that I'd be fine with two young children. I now see that they were less than honest -- they do drop off or pick-up WHEN they have time which is not the normal.

Try harder. Your job isn't working for you and there most likely isn't anything that can be done about it unless you plan on giving up your kids for adoption. You'll most likely get pushed out and you'll kick yourself for spending more time in a soil sucking job.

Six months is not a long time on USAjobs, especially in the current political environment. Keep applying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harsh question: Why did you think your experience in Big Law would be different than those you've read about in Above the Law, etc.? Nothing that you've described is remotely outside the norm of expectations. It was foolish for you to try to attempt the impossible with young children. You need to get out now - or wait until you are given the boot with 3 months severance to find something more realistic for your stage in life.

I know this sounds mean, but I get so tired of my associates thinking the rules/expectations don't apply to them. I guarantee your partners feel the same about you.

+10000

What, Op, did you really think you could "have it all?" Guess the jokes on you.

Law firms are dishonest in this regard, and law students are naive. I worked for a firm that billed itself as the top family-friendly firm in the area, even to having a day care on site. Wasn't family friendly in the least. Day care closed at 6, and woe to the attorney who was working on a filing at 6 and had to stop to get her kids. Having it on site made it worse because then pickup was inconvenient for the spouse. All the young female attorneys I knew who had kids at the firm either didn't come back -- despite very generous maternity leave -- or left after a year or two. I knew only one female partner with kids; the rest didn't have kids and most weren't even married. The male partners all had stay at home wives. I saw the writing on the wall and left after 3 years (plus prior clerkship) to take a GS-13 job at a dinky government agency, making less than half my law firm salary. Had 2 kids in government and worked my way to GS-15 supervisory attorney in 7 years. The job isn't sexy but it's about as family-friendly as a litigating position can get.

Over the years I've served as a summer mentor to women from my law school. Without exception, they all think they will be different and will make law firms work for them and their family goals. They don't believe me when I suggest that it might be more difficult than they think. Law schools and law firms tell them they can do it. (Just like law school, at least when I was in school in the mid-aughts, said don't worry about your loans because you will easily pay them back. Hahaha.) I'm sure some women manage to do it, but it's pretty rare that they do it well and happily. Some do, but most don't.

And that goes for men too. My husband got out of biglaw a year before I did, for the same reasons, and also went to government. We are both very busy and feel like every moment is scheduled, between 2 jobs, 45 minute-1 hour commutes, day care for 4 year old and 6 month old, making dinner, housework, etc. And we both agree there is no way in hell we could have done this and stayed afloat if either of us -- much less both of us -- were still at a firm.

So, OP, my advice for you is to get out. It's unlikely you'll be fired this year for 1800 hours, but you're not making an impression as a top dog either, nor does it sound like it's working for you on a personal level. Do your best over the next year and do some serious job searching.

But how can law students remain so naive when the information is readily available? There are cautionary tales of big law washouts everywhere these days. I truly don't understand why people don't believe that a job paying $180k to start will be difficult. Of COURSE you are going to have to work long hours and NO it's not family friendly.

They hear what they want to hear. Many of us do in one way or another.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harsh question: Why did you think your experience in Big Law would be different than those you've read about in Above the Law, etc.? Nothing that you've described is remotely outside the norm of expectations. It was foolish for you to try to attempt the impossible with young children. You need to get out now - or wait until you are given the boot with 3 months severance to find something more realistic for your stage in life.

I know this sounds mean, but I get so tired of my associates thinking the rules/expectations don't apply to them. I guarantee your partners feel the same about you.

+10000

What, Op, did you really think you could "have it all?" Guess the jokes on you.

Law firms are dishonest in this regard, and law students are naive. I worked for a firm that billed itself as the top family-friendly firm in the area, even to having a day care on site. Wasn't family friendly in the least. Day care closed at 6, and woe to the attorney who was working on a filing at 6 and had to stop to get her kids. Having it on site made it worse because then pickup was inconvenient for the spouse. All the young female attorneys I knew who had kids at the firm either didn't come back -- despite very generous maternity leave -- or left after a year or two. I knew only one female partner with kids; the rest didn't have kids and most weren't even married. The male partners all had stay at home wives. I saw the writing on the wall and left after 3 years (plus prior clerkship) to take a GS-13 job at a dinky government agency, making less than half my law firm salary. Had 2 kids in government and worked my way to GS-15 supervisory attorney in 7 years. The job isn't sexy but it's about as family-friendly as a litigating position can get.

Over the years I've served as a summer mentor to women from my law school. Without exception, they all think they will be different and will make law firms work for them and their family goals. They don't believe me when I suggest that it might be more difficult than they think. Law schools and law firms tell them they can do it. (Just like law school, at least when I was in school in the mid-aughts, said don't worry about your loans because you will easily pay them back. Hahaha.) I'm sure some women manage to do it, but it's pretty rare that they do it well and happily. Some do, but most don't.

And that goes for men too. My husband got out of biglaw a year before I did, for the same reasons, and also went to government. We are both very busy and feel like every moment is scheduled, between 2 jobs, 45 minute-1 hour commutes, day care for 4 year old and 6 month old, making dinner, housework, etc. And we both agree there is no way in hell we could have done this and stayed afloat if either of us -- much less both of us -- were still at a firm.

So, OP, my advice for you is to get out. It's unlikely you'll be fired this year for 1800 hours, but you're not making an impression as a top dog either, nor does it sound like it's working for you on a personal level. Do your best over the next year and do some serious job searching.

But how can law students remain so naive when the information is readily available? There are cautionary tales of big law washouts everywhere these days. I truly don't understand why people don't believe that a job paying $180k to start will be difficult. Of COURSE you are going to have to work long hours and NO it's not family friendly.

They hear what they want to hear. Many of us do in one way or another.

Most of them are still at an age when you think you are special and things will turn out differently for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op don't be so quick to assume you can't make major changes in your life. You're in control of your life. I realize you have law school debt but as long as you can make the payments, that shouldn't stop you from changing careers. You sound miserable and should do something about it. Even if it means selling your house and moving into a rental. Selling cars. Do whatever it takes. You only live one life and this is no way to live it. I'd even apply for jobs in other cities. Do NOT have your spouse quit his job. No way.

You are so naive. I have a family member who sells cars and he works six days a week for ten to twelve hours a day for a pittance. And a lawyer can't just pick up and move to another city. It doesn't work like that. Not only is there the issue of being admitted to the bar, but law firms have a very strong preference for hiring people with local ties. Unless you have some in demand specialized expertise, no one will be interested in some random lawyer from another city. Plus the DC market is as good as it gets right now.

I think PP was saying to sell the cars to reduce expenses, not selling cars as a career; that would make sense with the line about selling your house.

It is difficult (not impossible) to move to another state but OP can move within the state where she's barred -- most DC lawyers are barred someplace else, and then waive into DC. Or she could change careers entirely and do something else, or stay home if her spouse was able to support them in a lower cost of living area. They need to figure out what their priorities are. Life is too short.

Ah you are right about that re. selling cars. But even so it does illustrate the fact that lots of people work long hours for a LOT less money.

Re moving to another city. Let's say you took the VA bar. You can't just up and find a job in Richmond. They don't want you. There are very few jobs there, and it's an insular market where they hire their own when possible. Similarly, it isn't easy to find a non legal job, because you've been trained as an attorney.
You aren't just going to float in and manage a non-profit, be cause guess what there are people who are trained and qualified for those jobs.

As I said, I've been in the legal placement industry a long time, and I know what I'm talking about. None of the suggestions people have made are going to work right now, but in 3 years OP will have some options. Bottom line is she doesn't get have a skill set that is in demand anywhere. The only suggestion I have is to become a permanent clerk or staff attorney for a court, since she clerked. But that is a pretty dead end job.

[Anonymous]

OP - maybe this is a dumb question, but do you get online and do more work from home after you get the kids to bed? You can get lot of hours in that way. That's the only way you are going to be able to come home to relieve the nanny and still get your work done. It's hard at first, but gets easier when it becomes more routine.

[Anonymous]

Yikes. What was your original plan for Big Kaw plus having kids the first few years of that. Most third yr associates are late 20s

[Anonymous]

Get another job?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op back. I don't think I can go.to government. Opportunities are sparse on usajobs and I've applied for 6 months without a bite.

I also can't hire another nanny -- as a 3rd year with a lot of debt, we are barely making ends meet with one full time nanny.

Yes, I did think my firm would be more family friendly. I chose this firm because during the interview, every single MALE partner told me that he either did drop off or pick up every single day and that I'd be fine with two young children. I now see that they were less than honest -- they do drop off or pick-up WHEN they have time which is not the normal.

I did BigLaw with kids. I billed at least three hours every night after bedtime (9 PM - midnight), including all weekends. I was up at 6 AM every morning and left for work by 7 AM. During those years I had a 4 month - 3 year old and was also up with the baby 2-3 times a night. I also tried to bill at least 4 hours over weekend naptimes and got up early on weekend mornings to bill until the kids woke up. You have to give up sleeping to make it work. I billed about 2200 hours a year with a 45 hour a week nanny and a supportive, but working FT, spouse.

This. It is a hell of a way to exist.

Not to mention, it puts into question the quality of the work product.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem, OP, is that these are really your prime years for your career development. If you can put in 3-5 years at your firm you will have so many more options. Right now you aren't very valuable to any employer because you don't know much. If you leave now you risk stunting your career growth long term. If you can stick it out, you can lay the foundation for longer term career growth. Can your husband lean out for a few years?

These are also her prime years to be a mother.

Yup, but that ship has already sailed. She's got a lot of debt, and if she wants to be able to pay it down and ensure the financial security of the kids going forward, this is the time to double down professionally. The alternative is crippling debt, still working full time at a job that pays a lot less, and long term lower earning potential. That's just how it is. There are no better options. I've been a big firm attorney, I'm married to one, and I've worked as a legal recruiter and am now in a position where I hire experienced lawyers. I know this world, and there is no good scenario here. Best she can do is to put her head down and work her butt off for the next few years and right the ship.

I cannot believe those are the only options. What if OP and her family moved out of this ridiculously expensive area to a smaller place that is more family friendly?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Ah you are right about that re. selling cars. But even so it does illustrate the fact that lots of people work long hours for a LOT less money.

Re moving to another city. Let's say you took the VA bar. You can't just up and find a job in Richmond. They don't want you. There are very few jobs there, and it's an insular market where they hire their own when possible. Similarly, it isn't easy to find a non legal job, because you've been trained as an attorney.
You aren't just going to float in and manage a non-profit, be cause guess what there are people who are trained and qualified for those jobs.

As I said, I've been in the legal placement industry a long time, and I know what I'm talking about. None of the suggestions people have made are going to work right now, but in 3 years OP will have some options. Bottom line is she doesn't get have a skill set that is in demand anywhere. The only suggestion I have is to become a permanent clerk or staff attorney for a court, since she clerked. But that is a pretty dead end job.

I'm certain you do know what you're taking about, at least re: private sector, but you're assuming she wants to stay in the private legal market. She doesn't have to: I have law school classmates who are now nurses and SAHMs and Westlaw phone support researchers and contract attorneys. They all went to a top 10 school and started in firms: they decided they'd rather not stay, in any capacity. Personally I took a 40% pay cut to go to government: my blue collar parents were appalled because, like you, they know people who work that hard for much less. I have never regretted my decision though.

You're not giving bad advice, but youre giving advice for a person who woukd rather preserve her legal career than see her kids. OP may or may not be that person.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harsh question: Why did you think your experience in Big Law would be different than those you've read about in Above the Law, etc.? Nothing that you've described is remotely outside the norm of expectations. It was foolish for you to try to attempt the impossible with young children. You need to get out now - or wait until you are given the boot with 3 months severance to find something more realistic for your stage in life.

I know this sounds mean, but I get so tired of my associates thinking the rules/expectations don't apply to them. I guarantee your partners feel the same about you.

+10000

What, Op, did you really think you could "have it all?" Guess the jokes on you.

Law firms are dishonest in this regard, and law students are naive. I worked for a firm that billed itself as the top family-friendly firm in the area, even to having a day care on site. Wasn't family friendly in the least. Day care closed at 6, and woe to the attorney who was working on a filing at 6 and had to stop to get her kids. Having it on site made it worse because then pickup was inconvenient for the spouse. All the young female attorneys I knew who had kids at the firm either didn't come back -- despite very generous maternity leave -- or left after a year or two. I knew only one female partner with kids; the rest didn't have kids and most weren't even married. The male partners all had stay at home wives. I saw the writing on the wall and left after 3 years (plus prior clerkship) to take a GS-13 job at a dinky government agency, making less than half my law firm salary. Had 2 kids in government and worked my way to GS-15 supervisory attorney in 7 years. The job isn't sexy but it's about as family-friendly as a litigating position can get.

Over the years I've served as a summer mentor to women from my law school. Without exception, they all think they will be different and will make law firms work for them and their family goals. They don't believe me when I suggest that it might be more difficult than they think. Law schools and law firms tell them they can do it. (Just like law school, at least when I was in school in the mid-aughts, said don't worry about your loans because you will easily pay them back. Hahaha.) I'm sure some women manage to do it, but it's pretty rare that they do it well and happily. Some do, but most don't.

And that goes for men too. My husband got out of biglaw a year before I did, for the same reasons, and also went to government. We are both very busy and feel like every moment is scheduled, between 2 jobs, 45 minute-1 hour commutes, day care for 4 year old and 6 month old, making dinner, housework, etc. And we both agree there is no way in hell we could have done this and stayed afloat if either of us -- much less both of us -- were still at a firm.

So, OP, my advice for you is to get out. It's unlikely you'll be fired this year for 1800 hours, but you're not making an impression as a top dog either, nor does it sound like it's working for you on a personal level. Do your best over the next year and do some serious job searching.

But how can law students remain so naive when the information is readily available? There are cautionary tales of big law washouts everywhere these days. I truly don't understand why people don't believe that a job paying $180k to start will be difficult. Of COURSE you are going to have to work long hours and NO it's not family friendly.

Why do so many women think that they can wait until their mid to late 30's to get married and then can have kids with no problem? Why do 18 year old think that they can text and drive, or drink and drive, with no threat of danger?

It's just the way we're programmed, especially when when young. You can do anything you want and you can conquer the world... remember??!!

[Anonymous]

OP, is your degree/clerkship recent enough that you are still eligible for PMF, honors attorney, and other government entry programs? (yes, they are competitive)

Have you looked at state and local government?
Local small firms? State bar or similar organizations who hire lawyers on staff?
Called your school's placement office?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem, OP, is that these are really your prime years for your career development. If you can put in 3-5 years at your firm you will have so many more options. Right now you aren't very valuable to any employer because you don't know much. If you leave now you risk stunting your career growth long term. If you can stick it out, you can lay the foundation for longer term career growth. Can your husband lean out for a few years?

These are also her prime years to be a mother.

Yup, but that ship has already sailed. She's got a lot of debt, and if she wants to be able to pay it down and ensure the financial security of the kids going forward, this is the time to double down professionally. The alternative is crippling debt, still working full time at a job that pays a lot less, and long term lower earning potential. That's just how it is. There are no better options. I've been a big firm attorney, I'm married to one, and I've worked as a legal recruiter and am now in a position where I hire experienced lawyers. I know this world, and there is no good scenario here. Best she can do is to put her head down and work her butt off for the next few years and right the ship.

I cannot believe those are the only options. What if OP and her family moved out of this ridiculously expensive area to a smaller place that is more family friendly?

Sure, they can move, but who is going to hire her. OP has no marketable skills as a rising second year associate and no employer will be interested in her except maybe another big firm doing exactly the same work she is doing now. And that would be relatively unusual. Firms hire entry level or midlevel laterals, typically. The deal is you go to a big law firm for maybe 3 to 5 years, suffer, pay down as much of your debt as possible, and the leave as someone who presumably got great training and some legal expertise and judgment that someone is willing to pay for. The market for lawyers is not great anywhere, but it is better in DC than elsewhere.

[Anonymous]

You are in a tough spot, OP. I just left biglaw to go in-house this year. I had a 3 yo and 4 mos when I left. I was dreading going back to work my entire maternity leave and so used that time to network like crazy. That said, I was an 8th year in a specialized practice. I haven't read all the responses here, but you need to make sure you are in a practice area that is marketable for in-house or government (i.e., I hope you're not a general litigator). You need to start meeting with those people. Also, 1800 billable for your first year at a firm is totally fine. You're not going to be groomed for partner but they will keep you around for a few years. Do not have your DH quit. It doesn't sound like you LOVE your job regardless of the hours, and firms love to spit out 9th year associates that don't make partner. And then what will your DH do? Presumably if that happens you will both need to be working.

I would say tough it out for 2-3 more years. Don't kill yourself to make 2000 hours if you're not looking for partnership and you're okay forgoing bonus. Position yourself to specialize and network like crazy to make yourself marketable. Apply for new job as a 5th year. No reason to not contact a recruiter now though just so they have you on their radar. Most of my friends that went in-house used Garrison & Sisson or got their job through networking. good luck.