Did College Park really just allow non-citizens the right to vote?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From link above:

"The city council passed the measure on a vote of 4-3. It came after a summer filled with heated debate.

The measure applies to green-card holders, undocumented immigrants and those with student-visas."

If anyone can justify the ridiculousness of this, I will tip my hat to you.

They're residents of the town and likely pay taxes as well. They have an interest in governance.

Undocumented immigrants pay taxes? News to me.

So they snuck into our country (breaking the law!) and are entitled to legally vote in an election? I don't consider "they are residents of the town" an appropriate justification.

How can the bolded possibly be news to you? Have you been living under a rock?

Undocumented immigrants pay sales taxes just like you and me. Since they are frequently lower income than the average DCUM poster, and sales tax is regressive, they pay, on average, a higher percentage of their income in sales tax than you probably do.

Undocumented immigrants live in housing, so they either pay rent, a portion of which goes towards property tax, or they own and pay property tax. Same as you and me.

Undocumented immigrants pay income tax, but often aren't able to get refunds, so again, they pay at a higher rate than most citizens or green card holders with similar jobs.

You're stretching with the sales tax argument and the rent/property tax argument. And as far as paying income tax, what percentage of them do - and how, if not for stolen SS numbers? Plenty of day laborer and under-the-table wages. Why should they get a full vote compared to the honest, law-abiding citizens who pays their FULL share of taxes?

Your ignorance is showing.
Have you heard of tax ID number? It's a 9-digit number the IRS give to anyone so it can collect taxes.
Yeah, uncle Sam gets its share of the money but these people will never get anything back in return ( no refund, benefits, etc...)

We pay $14,000 per kid to educate their offspring. That's a lot more than they pay in taxes. It's a net gain for them, and a net loss to real Americans.

Immigrants pay billions in taxes in Maryland:

"In Maryland, households headed by undocumented immigrants paid $275,172,882 in taxes; which included $75,979,518 in personal income taxes, $22,113,794 in property taxes, and $177,079,570 in sales taxes."

I'm not sure exactly how that measures up to the amount of services they receive, but generally it's understood that immigrants are a net positive on state economies.

https://www.nilc.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/MD-2013-Talking-Points-Taxes.pdf

http://www.budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/issues/2016/1/27/the-effects-of-immigration-on-the-united-states-economy

PP, the way you describe the situation sounds almost like influence peddling. There ought to be a better argument than they pay taxes.

When the argument is, "Why should they get to vote? They don't pay taxes!", this is the logical response.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
We pay $14,000 per kid to educate their offspring. That's a lot more than they pay in taxes. It's a net gain for them, and a net loss to real Americans.

I am a US-born US citizen with two US-born, US-citizen kids in public schools.. I certainly don't pay $28,000 a year in taxes. Should I take one of the kids out of school, since I'm not paying their way?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From link above:

"The city council passed the measure on a vote of 4-3. It came after a summer filled with heated debate.

The measure applies to green-card holders, undocumented immigrants and those with student-visas."

If anyone can justify the ridiculousness of this, I will tip my hat to you.

They're residents of the town and likely pay taxes as well. They have an interest in governance.

Undocumented immigrants pay taxes? News to me.

So they snuck into our country (breaking the law!) and are entitled to legally vote in an election? I don't consider "they are residents of the town" an appropriate justification.

How can the bolded possibly be news to you? Have you been living under a rock?

Undocumented immigrants pay sales taxes just like you and me. Since they are frequently lower income than the average DCUM poster, and sales tax is regressive, they pay, on average, a higher percentage of their income in sales tax than you probably do.

Undocumented immigrants live in housing, so they either pay rent, a portion of which goes towards property tax, or they own and pay property tax. Same as you and me.

Undocumented immigrants pay income tax, but often aren't able to get refunds, so again, they pay at a higher rate than most citizens or green card holders with similar jobs.

You're stretching with the sales tax argument and the rent/property tax argument. And as far as paying income tax, what percentage of them do - and how, if not for stolen SS numbers? Plenty of day laborer and under-the-table wages. Why should they get a full vote compared to the honest, law-abiding citizens who pays their FULL share of taxes?

Your ignorance is showing.
Have you heard of tax ID number? It's a 9-digit number the IRS give to anyone so it can collect taxes.
Yeah, uncle Sam gets its share of the money but these people will never get anything back in return ( no refund, benefits, etc...)

We pay $14,000 per kid to educate their offspring. That's a lot more than they pay in taxes. It's a net gain for them, and a net loss to real Americans.

Immigrants pay billions in taxes in Maryland:

"In Maryland, households headed by undocumented immigrants paid $275,172,882 in taxes; which included $75,979,518 in personal income taxes, $22,113,794 in property taxes, and $177,079,570 in sales taxes."

I'm not sure exactly how that measures up to the amount of services they receive, but generally it's understood that immigrants are a net positive on state economies.

https://www.nilc.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/MD-2013-Talking-Points-Taxes.pdf

http://www.budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/issues/2016/1/27/the-effects-of-immigration-on-the-united-states-economy

PP, the way you describe the situation sounds almost like influence peddling. There ought to be a better argument than they pay taxes.

When the argument is, "Why should they get to vote? They don't pay taxes!", this is the logical response.

Maybe, but I think the "they-pay-taxes" argument is dehumanizing people, making them a commodity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
We pay $14,000 per kid to educate their offspring. That's a lot more than they pay in taxes. It's a net gain for them, and a net loss to real Americans.

I am a US-born US citizen with two US-born, US-citizen kids in public schools.. I certainly don't pay $28,000 a year in taxes. Should I take one of the kids out of school, since I'm not paying their way?

Of course not. What type of crazy liberal thinking is that? You and your kids are AMERICAN. Illegal immigrants aren't entitled to the same services as Americans (although in the case of education, they do get that for free.) Besides, the argument wasn't about whether to educate these illegals - it's about whether ilegal immigrants are a net positive for the economy, and of course they are not.

FWIW, I have no kids in school and pay taxes to educate yours (rightly so) as well as those who came here illegally. But let's not pretend that we are gaining by having millions of illegals in this country....it is a net expense. It's coming at a particularly big expense to elderly Americans, too, who have dutifully paid taxes for decades and have seen the equity in their homes evaporate when the illegals move in to the imoacted neighborhoods.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
We pay $14,000 per kid to educate their offspring. That's a lot more than they pay in taxes. It's a net gain for them, and a net loss to real Americans.

I am a US-born US citizen with two US-born, US-citizen kids in public schools.. I certainly don't pay $28,000 a year in taxes. Should I take one of the kids out of school, since I'm not paying their way?

Of course not. What type of crazy liberal thinking is that? You and your kids are AMERICAN. Illegal immigrants aren't entitled to the same services as Americans (although in the case of education, they do get that for free.) Besides, the argument wasn't about whether to educate these illegals - it's about whether ilegal immigrants are a net positive for the economy, and of course they are not.

FWIW, I have no kids in school and pay taxes to educate yours (rightly so) as well as those who came here illegally. But let's not pretend that we are gaining by having millions of illegals in this country....it is a net expense. It's coming at a particularly big expense to elderly Americans, too, who have dutifully paid taxes for decades and have seen the equity in their homes evaporate when the illegals move in to the imoacted neighborhoods.

Sorry, there's plenty of research showing undocumented immigrants are a net positive on the economy. Plus as others have pointed out, conditioning voting rights on an individual's net positive contribution is extremely problematic in a democracy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
We pay $14,000 per kid to educate their offspring. That's a lot more than they pay in taxes. It's a net gain for them, and a net loss to real Americans.

I am a US-born US citizen with two US-born, US-citizen kids in public schools.. I certainly don't pay $28,000 a year in taxes. Should I take one of the kids out of school, since I'm not paying their way?

Of course not. What type of crazy liberal thinking is that? You and your kids are AMERICAN. Illegal immigrants aren't entitled to the same services as Americans (although in the case of education, they do get that for free.) Besides, the argument wasn't about whether to educate these illegals - it's about whether ilegal immigrants are a net positive for the economy, and of course they are not.

FWIW, I have no kids in school and pay taxes to educate yours (rightly so) as well as those who came here illegally. But let's not pretend that we are gaining by having millions of illegals in this country....it is a net expense. It's coming at a particularly big expense to elderly Americans, too, who have dutifully paid taxes for decades and have seen the equity in their homes evaporate when the illegals move in to the imoacted neighborhoods.

You're wanting to have it both ways. If this is an argument about taxes, then the fact is that your taxes pay for my kids' education. If it's not an argument about taxes, then why do you bring up taxes?

As for whether unauthorized immigrants are a net expense or a net benefit to the US economy -- most economists agree that they are a net benefit to the US economy. But of course you are entitled to your own opinion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
We pay $14,000 per kid to educate their offspring. That's a lot more than they pay in taxes. It's a net gain for them, and a net loss to real Americans.

I am a US-born US citizen with two US-born, US-citizen kids in public schools.. I certainly don't pay $28,000 a year in taxes. Should I take one of the kids out of school, since I'm not paying their way?

Of course not. What type of crazy liberal thinking is that? You and your kids are AMERICAN. Illegal immigrants aren't entitled to the same services as Americans (although in the case of education, they do get that for free.) Besides, the argument wasn't about whether to educate these illegals - it's about whether ilegal immigrants are a net positive for the economy, and of course they are not.

FWIW, I have no kids in school and pay taxes to educate yours (rightly so) as well as those who came here illegally. But let's not pretend that we are gaining by having millions of illegals in this country....it is a net expense. It's coming at a particularly big expense to elderly Americans, too, who have dutifully paid taxes for decades and have seen the equity in their homes evaporate when the illegals move in to the imoacted neighborhoods.

You're wanting to have it both ways. If this is an argument about taxes, then the fact is that your taxes pay for my kids' education. If it's not an argument about taxes, then why do you bring up taxes?

As for whether unauthorized immigrants are a net expense or a net benefit to the US economy -- most economists agree that they are a net benefit to the US economy. But of course you are entitled to your own opinion.

NP. It really shouldn't matter if they are a net benefit or not. (Seriously, how many "true blood Americans" are a drain to the society? I don't even want to know.) It also really shouldn't matter if they pay taxes or not - again, how many Americans don't pay taxes? And how many use more benefits than what they've paid in? That's how the system is structured... A lot of people pay in for benefits that they don't use.

BUT the point is - these people are illegal. For whatever reason - overstayed on their visa or snuck across the border - they are not living here through legal means. There should be SOME consequence to them not following the rules. This isn't a discussion of the difficulties of the process and no one is even saying that they should all be deported or arrested or whatever. They are allowed to use the schools and the hospitals, etc because we are not cruel, heartless human beings. But at the very least, a minor consequence could very well be that they are not allowed to vote.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
We pay $14,000 per kid to educate their offspring. That's a lot more than they pay in taxes. It's a net gain for them, and a net loss to real Americans.

I am a US-born US citizen with two US-born, US-citizen kids in public schools.. I certainly don't pay $28,000 a year in taxes. Should I take one of the kids out of school, since I'm not paying their way?

Of course not. What type of crazy liberal thinking is that? You and your kids are AMERICAN. Illegal immigrants aren't entitled to the same services as Americans (although in the case of education, they do get that for free.) Besides, the argument wasn't about whether to educate these illegals - it's about whether ilegal immigrants are a net positive for the economy, and of course they are not.

FWIW, I have no kids in school and pay taxes to educate yours (rightly so) as well as those who came here illegally. But let's not pretend that we are gaining by having millions of illegals in this country....it is a net expense. It's coming at a particularly big expense to elderly Americans, too, who have dutifully paid taxes for decades and have seen the equity in their homes evaporate when the illegals move in to the imoacted neighborhoods.

Sorry, there's plenty of research showing undocumented immigrants are a net positive on the economy. Plus as others have pointed out, conditioning voting rights on an individual's net positive contribution is extremely problematic in a democracy.

First, those two issues have become conflated in this thread. I never said voting should be contingent on being a net positive. It should be contingent on being a legal citizen.

But the fact is that ILLEGAL ALIENS (you call them undocumented, the latest PC term for lawbreakers) are not net positive. You keep mentioning plenty of research without linking to anything. What about the damage they've caused to elderly people, who had their nest egg in their house? Illegals moved into the neighborhood, lowered the quality of the schools, and destroyed the property values. Why do liberals have more sympathy for people who break our laws than law-abiding elderly people who have paid taxes for 40 years, and now have seen tneir nest egg cut in half? Half the people in my parents' neighborhood are original owners from the 70s, and the other half are uneducated newcomers, half of whom don't even speak English? They are renting three families to a house! Why is that such a net positive?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Undocumented immigrants pay taxes? News to me.

So they snuck into our country (breaking the law!) and are entitled to legally vote in an election? I don't consider "they are residents of the town" an appropriate justification.

They pay sales tax and property tax through rent. And since college park does not collect its own income tax, that means they are paying all local taxes involved in any local elections.

Also, in many cases, payroll taxes and income taxes. And property taxes directly, for unauthorized immigrants who own property. PP, you should pay closer attention to the news!

And in many cases they work under the table. You should pay attention to the real world!

And in any cases, they commit identity fraud to pay income tax, for the sole purpose of getting earned income tax credits and child tax credits. So the net tax they pay is < 0.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
We pay $14,000 per kid to educate their offspring. That's a lot more than they pay in taxes. It's a net gain for them, and a net loss to real Americans.

I am a US-born US citizen with two US-born, US-citizen kids in public schools.. I certainly don't pay $28,000 a year in taxes. Should I take one of the kids out of school, since I'm not paying their way?

Of course not. What type of crazy liberal thinking is that? You and your kids are AMERICAN. Illegal immigrants aren't entitled to the same services as Americans (although in the case of education, they do get that for free.) Besides, the argument wasn't about whether to educate these illegals - it's about whether ilegal immigrants are a net positive for the economy, and of course they are not.

FWIW, I have no kids in school and pay taxes to educate yours (rightly so) as well as those who came here illegally. But let's not pretend that we are gaining by having millions of illegals in this country....it is a net expense. It's coming at a particularly big expense to elderly Americans, too, who have dutifully paid taxes for decades and have seen the equity in their homes evaporate when the illegals move in to the imoacted neighborhoods.

You're wanting to have it both ways. If this is an argument about taxes, then the fact is that your taxes pay for my kids' education. If it's not an argument about taxes, then why do you bring up taxes?

As for whether unauthorized immigrants are a net expense or a net benefit to the US economy -- most economists agree that they are a net benefit to the US economy. But of course you are entitled to your own opinion.

I wasn't the first PP to bring up taxes. Some bleeding heart liberal upthread said they pay $275 million in taxes (mostly sales tax and property tax), so I responded that they cost $1.7 BILLION. (This is MD only.) If liberals want to use the fact that there is some tax revenue from these illegals, don't you think it's fair to also report the taxes we pay to provide for them - which is more than 6x what they pay in?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From link above:

"The city council passed the measure on a vote of 4-3. It came after a summer filled with heated debate.

The measure applies to green-card holders, undocumented immigrants and those with student-visas."

If anyone can justify the ridiculousness of this, I will tip my hat to you.

They're residents of the town and likely pay taxes as well. They have an interest in governance.

Undocumented immigrants pay taxes? News to me.

So they snuck into our country (breaking the law!) and are entitled to legally vote in an election? I don't consider "they are residents of the town" an appropriate justification.

Then you're ignorant. It is well established that undocumented immigrants pay taxes--sales taxes for sure, and often employment taxes that they can never recover (if they are working under a fake SSN). They may well pay property taxes.

They are not allowed to vote in state or federal elections, but if the citizens of a town, through their elected leadership, decide that it makes sense to have all residents of the town able to vote, then I don't see who is to contradict them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

And in any cases, they commit identity fraud to pay income tax, for the sole purpose of getting earned income tax credits and child tax credits. So the net tax they pay is < 0.

This is factually incorrect.

https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/general-itin-information

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

NP. It really shouldn't matter if they are a net benefit or not. (Seriously, how many "true blood Americans" are a drain to the society? I don't even want to know.) It also really shouldn't matter if they pay taxes or not - again, how many Americans don't pay taxes? And how many use more benefits than what they've paid in? That's how the system is structured... A lot of people pay in for benefits that they don't use.

BUT the point is - these people are illegal. For whatever reason - overstayed on their visa or snuck across the border - they are not living here through legal means. There should be SOME consequence to them not following the rules. This isn't a discussion of the difficulties of the process and no one is even saying that they should all be deported or arrested or whatever. They are allowed to use the schools and the hospitals, etc because we are not cruel, heartless human beings. But at the very least, a minor consequence could very well be that they are not allowed to vote.

It could be. Or it could not be. If the locality decides that they are allowed to vote in local elections, then they are allowed to vote.

(The people, themselves, are not illegal. Their presence in the US is unlawful.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If an illegal alien is deported back to their country of citizenship, can they still get a mail-in absentee ballot to vote in College Park elections?

The law doesn't apply to undocumented residents. So, no.

What Jeff said. This applies to legal residents, so basically green card holders.

More than green card holders, I work for the World Bank, I would like to be able to better participate in local government issues in my DC neighborhood. But I cannot vote for my local ANC rep. I still get involved, but i cannot vote, and if I could what would be the harm?

[jsteele]

It turns out that College Park actually did not pass this measure:

http://wtop.com/prince-georges-county/2017/09/college-parks-move-let-noncitizens-vote-actually-not-pass/

Most council actions require a simple majority, but changes to the charter require affirmative votes from six elected officials. That requirement came after the city charter was amended in June.

On Tuesday, when the measure was thought to have passed, the city council voted 4-3, with one abstention. That was actually not enough to pass the charter amendment.

So, five pages for nothing.