Are you a "Dream Hoarder"? I am, apparently

[Anonymous]

I don't donate to my alma mater, don't have any contacts and my friends can't help my child. I believe, however, that DC will do well without such help. He is getting a good education and he will do fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
+1. Never mind that every single one of us in this thread said we would use whatever connections and resources we reasonably could to help our own kids. If the GT Asian child doesn't get in, it's because a black student took the spot, not because a spot was taken by a white student whose parents know the college president and several trustees. Is this the argument, PP?

This is PP. Yes, that is my point. Not to simplify it but affirmative action means looking not only at test scores but also at a variety of factors (including income). I do agree with this. While it certainly may help many African-Americans and other URM who may have otherwise been overlooked, it also helps white students against Asian students (gasp!) Nobody wants to examine that part of it--just read a thread on how high test scores shouldn't be the be all and end all (in regards to Asians).

Also, many URM are belittled for being under-qualified while people are admitting that they are ok with "under qualified." As long as it is the privileged kind of under qualified. When I heard that Julian Castro had a fairly average SAT score, I admit I was a bit shocked. He went much further in his career than many people with higher scores. How do you account for this? You look at how hard he had to work to get to that SAT score. It became an indicator for how much further he could go. I know this isn't always the case but this is the reason to look at multiple factors. I do find that this excuse to look at a variety of factors is biased against Asians by being dismissive of their accomplishments BUT let's be clear about what we're talking about. The previous PP immediately decided to make it Asians vs. black in a twisted way. I think this is a common perception though.

You are not just simplifying it, but you are mis-characterizing it. Affirmative action is about race. If it was purely about individual circumstances, I would not have any problems with it: a kid's achievement is in the context of his environment, and if the college represents a common environment for the students, then it's logical to make adjustments for applicants based on their differentiated circumstances. As I noted earlier, there are poor black neighborhoods, poor hispanic neighborhoods, and poor asian neighborhoods, they all have challenges. Yet we are somehow to believe that there are some special insurmountable challenges faced by poor black families that can only be remedied by differentiated action based on skin color.

IMO, college applications should be anonymous - when you submit an application you get a number and that's what the reviewers see. They don't see your name, they don't see your age, sex, race, religion, or anything that is a protected class. Let the achievements and the context of those achievements speak for themselves. A poor kid is just a poor kid, poverty doesn't care about skin color, only people who care about skin color, care about skin color.

Appreciate the discussion, sincerely, even though I disagree with you. Have you read Between the World and Me?

I have not. I did take African American Literature, and African American Women's Literature as electives in college - this was back in the late 90s so I don't claim to be an expert on AA history or race relations in the US, but I do hope that it at least demonstrates more than an average interest in the experience of minorities in the US. Race relations is one of the main issues holding back or slowing the progress of Americans, and it has such significant impacts on the quality of life, economic output, and political efficacy of our nation. Based on summary of the book, my initial reaction is that Between the World and Me is yet another emotional plea that bases its reasoning on cherry picked context. For example, it will bring up the very real issue of systemic black incarceration, but neglecting the fact that it was black leaders who pushed for tougher sentencing guidelines to combat urban crime. Look at the local leaders of any major city and see what their skin color is - those are the people who are perpetuating these problems, sending black people to prison. It will bring up police brutality, but hypocritically miss the irony of blaming the violence in black communities on external factors, while blaming the violence of police on internal ones. I'm not giving my money to misguided attempts at claiming victim hood. I'll go borrow it from a library and see how much of it I can sit through. Just in case you think my distaste for faux-intellectual books is one sided, I got through maybe a quarter of Guns, Germs, and Steel before I deleted it from my Kindle - I found it repetitive, simple minded, and entirely dismissive of important artificial factors such as mass slavery and imperialism.

[Anonymous]

Help your own child and others. Become a mentor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My take away from this is that there are all of this little social cues and social capital that we all take for granted that ends up keeping poorer people out of certain things.

The article David Brooks wrote resonated with me. I am going through the college selection/application process now with my kid and it actually turns my stomach to think about all of the ways disadvantaged kids are shut out and all of the hurdles that you have to cross. And how we get sidetracked by stuff like affirmative action. Here are some of the challenges I can think of:

-living in a neighborhood with good schools and good guidance counselors and college application support
-being the academic track to take AP classes or the right classes
-Being able to afford multiple AP tests
-Being able to afford multiple ACT/SAT tests
-Having solid academic support or being able to afford tutors or have the social capital to know where to go to get help at low cost
-Understanding the college application process, deadlines, financial aid process
-Having the confidence to even apply for top schools
-Knowing how to connect with admissions officers
-Being able to visit schools

Obviously everyone wants the best for their kid, but I never really thought about how I am contributing and participating in this system that actually leaves others behind. For me this is just one of those conversations that is food-for-thought and has given me a lot to think about. I am also Black so thinking about this is actually torture.

I am Asian and there are plenty of poor Asian immigrants. My oldest has a classmate - good kid, very polite, very confident, popular among his peers. His parents are blue collar workers, one is a cashier and the other one is a restaurant cook. They don't buy fancy clothes, no fancy hair cuts, old Japanese beater cars, they bought into an affordable corner of the good school pyramid, and send their kid to many of the tutoring workshops that are popular with Asians. That kid was always in the GT program and currently has better grades than mine in the same classes. I don't know if he is going on a college tour, my guess is no, but I wouldn't be surprised if his parents scrimped and saved to make that happen. He is kind, happy, and very hard working, just like his parents. Yet he knows that despite all his efforts and those of his parents, a college admission officer will favor a black student over him because of his race. You telling me this is a more fair state of affairs?

So we can't have a conversation about this because you made it about race and you used one anecdote (the exceptional poor Asian) to justify your position. If you look at the list of things I listed, these are activities and norms that are part of the college process for UMC families. It is difficult for poor families of any color to crack all of that to gain admission to top schools.During the college selection process, I've been trying to put myself in the shoes of parents who may not have attending college, don't have friends or family that went to college, don't have money or well-informed guidance counselors, and live in communities that may not support academic achievement. It is difficult for poor families of any color to crack all of that to gain admission to top schools. While I think personal responsibility is part of the equation, there are still systemic problems that go far beyond what an individual family can overcome. It's not just about priorities.

Have a great life!

I didn't make this about race, the original PP brought up race, as if being black is especially difficult. Yes I used an anecdote, but Asian performance in the US is broadly recognized, and note that I don't even have to specify what kind of Asian, as Asia includes a broad range of cultures and skin colors. The activities you listed are all within the reach of any american family, including those with poor economic status. Poor Asian families do this all the time, what's so different with black families - are they less capable? is there some invisible hand that holds back only poor black families and not poor Asian families? Life is absolutely about choices and priorities, and if one make poor choices, and prioritize the wrong things, then one's life will not be as good. It is not someone else's fault.

Frankly I am shocked that the social state of the US has degraded to the point where one's inherited advantages and general achievement in life is held up for question. What's next, am I going to be on the hook for a program that makes up for single-parent households because intact families represent a privilege that single-mother/father children don't have the benefit of? This is not a slippery slope question, because as soon as you disconnect a person's life achievement from the choices he makes, and places the burden somewhere else, this by necessity mean that the only way to achieve the desired end goal is to eliminate all cases of inequality. How do we make up for the lack of athletic prowess of Asians in the US world of professional sports? I find the situation appalling. Asian parents often don't know about all of the various sports programs, swim teams, or travel soccer teams that exist. The situation is leaving Asians behind and thinking about this as an Asian is actually torture.

You completely mischaracterized what was said initially about race. What is sad though is that you are defending a college admissions systems that openly and systematically tries to keep the number of Asians down.

[Anonymous]

Another dream hoarder here. Not sure I really care. The game basically asked me if I want my neighborhood overrun with multifamily housing which brings with it increased crime and other problems (no thanks, been there done that when we owned a townhouse - that's largely the reason we moved) and then asked me a couple of questions about helping my child get into schools or get an internship. If wanting a safe environment and opportunities for my family are dream hoarding then I'm happy to wear the label.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Another dream hoarder here. Not sure I really care. The game basically asked me if I want my neighborhood overrun with multifamily housing which brings with it increased crime and other problems (no thanks, been there done that when we owned a townhouse - that's largely the reason we moved) and then asked me a couple of questions about helping my child get into schools or get an internship. If wanting a safe environment and opportunities for my family are dream hoarding then I'm happy to wear the label.

Yeah, I also loved the zero questions about whether or not you donated time or money to educational organizations in high-needs schools, offered on-road internship/job programs, or did any other number of things that might make a difference. It was all about choosing your own kids over someone else's - sorry, that's a no-brainer.

[Anonymous]

It's interesting seeing the contrast here vs other forums on this site

I think its interesting that on the financial forum people are much more logical about taking all advantages

If you go to the education forum you will find posters willing to sacrifice the quality of their child's education in the name of diversity

In terms of practical solutions I think the education lottery system DC has is a good solution. It mixes still having premiums for being in a higher cost of living area via inbound preferences with giving others a shot regardless of income via the lottery component. The alternative is having the current capitalism system of giant achievement gaps but a socialist system of pure lottery or bussing won't help either because the upper middle class will find new ways to get a leg-up via privates or moving altogether.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you go to the education forum you will find posters willing to sacrifice the quality of their child's education in the name of diversity

Are those SJWs willing to take their families and move to SE or PG County in the name of diversity as well? Somehow I doubt it...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My take away from this is that there are all of this little social cues and social capital that we all take for granted that ends up keeping poorer people out of certain things.

The article David Brooks wrote resonated with me. I am going through the college selection/application process now with my kid and it actually turns my stomach to think about all of the ways disadvantaged kids are shut out and all of the hurdles that you have to cross. And how we get sidetracked by stuff like affirmative action. Here are some of the challenges I can think of:

-living in a neighborhood with good schools and good guidance counselors and college application support
-being the academic track to take AP classes or the right classes
-Being able to afford multiple AP tests
-Being able to afford multiple ACT/SAT tests
-Having solid academic support or being able to afford tutors or have the social capital to know where to go to get help at low cost
-Understanding the college application process, deadlines, financial aid process
-Having the confidence to even apply for top schools
-Knowing how to connect with admissions officers
-Being able to visit schools

Obviously everyone wants the best for their kid, but I never really thought about how I am contributing and participating in this system that actually leaves others behind. For me this is just one of those conversations that is food-for-thought and has given me a lot to think about. I am also Black so thinking about this is actually torture.

No, it's about priorities. To each of your points:

1. School performance is largely dependent on parental involvement. Which of our surrounding counties has the worst schools? PG. Go take a look at the school threads for the counties, and see what the degree of parental involvement for PG is compared against the other counties. Don't blame the teachers and guidance counselors - they are not substitutes for parenting.

2. Regarding academic track and AP classes: see #1

3. Again a matter of life priorities. The reduced fee for AP test is $53, I refuse to believe that a family cannot find $53 to take the AP test.

4. Life priorities: it's a $57 test, and there are fee waivers available for low income families. The money barrier simply is not there.

5. Academic support is again a family function. I can see the point about tutors, but one does not need tutors to be successful.

6. We all have to learn the application process, I don't see this is especially difficult for people who are in the lower SES. Are you arguing that they are less capable?

7. Confidence is again a combination of upbringing and personal achievement. I think the masses have swung to far on the confidence scale. Everyone thinks they are special.

8. Helping your child develop inter-personal skills is a parental function.

9. You don't need to visit schools, and it affords you no special preference when applying to the schools. It's pretty much a vacation.

I am Asian and there are plenty of poor Asian immigrants. My oldest has a classmate - good kid, very polite, very confident, popular among his peers. His parents are blue collar workers, one is a cashier and the other one is a restaurant cook. They don't buy fancy clothes, no fancy hair cuts, old Japanese beater cars, they bought into an affordable corner of the good school pyramid, and send their kid to many of the tutoring workshops that are popular with Asians. That kid was always in the GT program and currently has better grades than mine in the same classes. I don't know if he is going on a college tour, my guess is no, but I wouldn't be surprised if his parents scrimped and saved to make that happen. He is kind, happy, and very hard working, just like his parents. Yet he knows that despite all his efforts and those of his parents, a college admission officer will favor a black student over him because of his race. You telling me this is a more fair state of affairs?

But it is not just a matter of priorities, it is absolutely a matter of knowledge, perspective, and even the ability to choose your priorities. My nanny has a sister with a five year old daughter, both of whom recently arrived from El Salvador (yes, all are legal so let's avoid that debate). Sister speaks no English, is 22, and was living with a friend of her grandmother. Parties were frequently happening at all hours and it was clearly not a safe place for the child. They ended up staying with me for several months. Five year old had never been in a preschool setting as this was not the norm where she lived. Mother knew nothing about the DC school lottery, good school zones, and literally had no idea that this was even information that was available to seek out. The issue wasn't that mom didn't prioritize a good school, it was that she had no idea that within DC there were good schools and bad and that there was a way to determine which were which and to increase the likelihood that your child would attend a good one. My child, who just turned three already has more "school readiness" skills than this five year old and my child got into a school we consider acceptable in the lottery, because I knew to apply, while my nanny's niece was stuck with our inbound that I don't consider acceptable, particularly for K and above. They have since moved elsewhere but I expect this to repeat in similar situations. There is absolutely an advantage that my kids have that this child will never be able to compete with and this is apparent at such an early age.

True, but I imagine her life and her child's life are better now, and their lives will continue to improve and provide more financial and educational opportunities than what they might have had in El Salvador. I agree with your point, but it sounds like you're advocating for some kind of instant American Dream, that just by living in the US, someone should be entitled to the exact same opportunities as everyone else. Many opportunities depend on knowledge, personal choices, and initiative. Life isn't fair, and we start life in different home environments, neighborhoods, and with different parents. We're promised equality under the law, but the playing field can never be truly leveled.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd be a dream hoarder if we had kids, but we're upper middle class and child-free. I guess our enormous tax bill and lack of resource consumption means we're contributing.

What a load of shit this is.

Of course it's crap. Just because I help my child succeed doesn't mean it's a zero sum game and no poorer children can succeed.

I get so sick of the media saying that white, rich kids have a leg up and POC and poors don't have an equal chance at success.. No one is stopping anyone from getting a top education or good job, they have laws against discrimination in this country. The playing field is level IMHO.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you go to the education forum you will find posters willing to sacrifice the quality of their child's education in the name of diversity

Are those SJWs willing to take their families and move to SE or PG County in the name of diversity as well? Somehow I doubt it...

They have the same amount of dedication to their cause as people who talked about leaving the US if the election didn't go their way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd be a dream hoarder if we had kids, but we're upper middle class and child-free. I guess our enormous tax bill and lack of resource consumption means we're contributing.

What a load of shit this is.

Of course it's crap. Just because I help my child succeed doesn't mean it's a zero sum game and no poorer children can succeed.

I get so sick of the media saying that white, rich kids have a leg up and POC and poors don't have an equal chance at success.. No one is stopping anyone from getting a top education or good job, they have laws against discrimination in this country. The playing field is level IMHO.

+1000. What's really stopping them is having kids out of wedlock while they are young (and half of them are so poor the kids are born on Medicaid!) and making shitty choices followed by more shitty choices that cause them to stay in the shitty environment they were born into. Some of us started out in similarly shitty environments (I was homeless and living with an AA family as a child), but looked around and said "fuck this" and worked our asses off to get into the UMC. Lack of motivation and hard work does not make one a victim. The really scary part is that Idiocracy is coming true a hell of a lot faster than I thought it would.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
+1. Never mind that every single one of us in this thread said we would use whatever connections and resources we reasonably could to help our own kids. If the GT Asian child doesn't get in, it's because a black student took the spot, not because a spot was taken by a white student whose parents know the college president and several trustees. Is this the argument, PP?

This is PP. Yes, that is my point. Not to simplify it but affirmative action means looking not only at test scores but also at a variety of factors (including income). I do agree with this. While it certainly may help many African-Americans and other URM who may have otherwise been overlooked, it also helps white students against Asian students (gasp!) Nobody wants to examine that part of it--just read a thread on how high test scores shouldn't be the be all and end all (in regards to Asians).

Also, many URM are belittled for being under-qualified while people are admitting that they are ok with "under qualified." As long as it is the privileged kind of under qualified. When I heard that Julian Castro had a fairly average SAT score, I admit I was a bit shocked. He went much further in his career than many people with higher scores. How do you account for this? You look at how hard he had to work to get to that SAT score. It became an indicator for how much further he could go. I know this isn't always the case but this is the reason to look at multiple factors. I do find that this excuse to look at a variety of factors is biased against Asians by being dismissive of their accomplishments BUT let's be clear about what we're talking about. The previous PP immediately decided to make it Asians vs. black in a twisted way. I think this is a common perception though.

You are not just simplifying it, but you are mis-characterizing it. Affirmative action is about race. If it was purely about individual circumstances, I would not have any problems with it: a kid's achievement is in the context of his environment, and if the college represents a common environment for the students, then it's logical to make adjustments for applicants based on their differentiated circumstances. As I noted earlier, there are poor black neighborhoods, poor hispanic neighborhoods, and poor asian neighborhoods, they all have challenges. Yet we are somehow to believe that there are some special insurmountable challenges faced by poor black families that can only be remedied by differentiated action based on skin color.

IMO, college applications should be anonymous - when you submit an application you get a number and that's what the reviewers see. They don't see your name, they don't see your age, sex, race, religion, or anything that is a protected class. Let the achievements and the context of those achievements speak for themselves. A poor kid is just a poor kid, poverty doesn't care about skin color, only people who care about skin color, care about skin color.

Appreciate the discussion, sincerely, even though I disagree with you. Have you read Between the World and Me?

I have not. I did take African American Literature, and African American Women's Literature as electives in college - this was back in the late 90s so I don't claim to be an expert on AA history or race relations in the US, but I do hope that it at least demonstrates more than an average interest in the experience of minorities in the US. Race relations is one of the main issues holding back or slowing the progress of Americans, and it has such significant impacts on the quality of life, economic output, and political efficacy of our nation. Based on summary of the book, my initial reaction is that Between the World and Me is yet another emotional plea that bases its reasoning on cherry picked context. For example, it will bring up the very real issue of systemic black incarceration, but neglecting the fact that it was black leaders who pushed for tougher sentencing guidelines to combat urban crime. Look at the local leaders of any major city and see what their skin color is - those are the people who are perpetuating these problems, sending black people to prison. It will bring up police brutality, but hypocritically miss the irony of blaming the violence in black communities on external factors, while blaming the violence of police on internal ones. I'm not giving my money to misguided attempts at claiming victim hood. I'll go borrow it from a library and see how much of it I can sit through. Just in case you think my distaste for faux-intellectual books is one sided, I got through maybe a quarter of Guns, Germs, and Steel before I deleted it from my Kindle - I found it repetitive, simple minded, and entirely dismissive of important artificial factors such as mass slavery and imperialism.

I think you'll get through a lot of it.

[Anonymous]

To the unhinged Asian poster - why are you so convinced AAs are taking all your spots? Why don't you rail against legacies and athletic admits too? What about big donor's kids who can get in with mediocre grades? First gen kids of all races get preference too, not just AA kids. Also, you conveniently ignore the positive biases that favor Asians. Research has consistently shown that teachers often assume Asian kids are smart and AA kids are not as advanced even if their actual work shows otherwise. You may be surprised to learn that I am Asian myself. I am just tired of the casual and lazy racism that many of my fellow Asians openly express.

[Anonymous]

"I can't emphasize this point strongly enough," he replies, "but I don't think we should treat our own children as social-policy interventions. And poor parents, by the way, if you go to them and say, 'I'm not [paying for tutoring] because I'm egalitarian,' they'd say, 'What the hell is wrong with you?'" He does offer some suggestions to address the imbalance: Match the amount spent on enrichment experiences for your child to assist a needier child; find a family to "adopt," and invest in their children's educations; or follow the lead of the affluent public school that his kids attend—for every dollar the PTA raises, the group gives 50 cents to a low-income DC school. "

+1
LOT of defensiveness in the replies on this one! Many of you know it is not right - the problem is that all your peers are doing it too so your stuck. I agree with the points above about acknowledging that there is a system in place helping your kids (that includes you) and disadvantageous MC and poor kids. And so thinking about what you can do in addition to help rebalance things a bit.

I would add - AND raising your kids to realize they had legs up along their way and did not "make it all on their own" so certainly have an obligation to be chipping in and helping out those that did not get those same advantages / opportunities. Way too little acknowledgement of this.