Are you a "Dream Hoarder"? I am, apparently

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My take away from this is that there are all of this little social cues and social capital that we all take for granted that ends up keeping poorer people out of certain things.

The article David Brooks wrote resonated with me. I am going through the college selection/application process now with my kid and it actually turns my stomach to think about all of the ways disadvantaged kids are shut out and all of the hurdles that you have to cross. And how we get sidetracked by stuff like affirmative action. Here are some of the challenges I can think of:

-living in a neighborhood with good schools and good guidance counselors and college application support
-being the academic track to take AP classes or the right classes
-Being able to afford multiple AP tests
-Being able to afford multiple ACT/SAT tests
-Having solid academic support or being able to afford tutors or have the social capital to know where to go to get help at low cost
-Understanding the college application process, deadlines, financial aid process
-Having the confidence to even apply for top schools
-Knowing how to connect with admissions officers
-Being able to visit schools

Obviously everyone wants the best for their kid, but I never really thought about how I am contributing and participating in this system that actually leaves others behind. For me this is just one of those conversations that is food-for-thought and has given me a lot to think about. I am also Black so thinking about this is actually torture.

No, it's about priorities. To each of your points:

1. School performance is largely dependent on parental involvement. Which of our surrounding counties has the worst schools? PG. Go take a look at the school threads for the counties, and see what the degree of parental involvement for PG is compared against the other counties. Don't blame the teachers and guidance counselors - they are not substitutes for parenting.

2. Regarding academic track and AP classes: see #1

3. Again a matter of life priorities. The reduced fee for AP test is $53, I refuse to believe that a family cannot find $53 to take the AP test.

4. Life priorities: it's a $57 test, and there are fee waivers available for low income families. The money barrier simply is not there.

5. Academic support is again a family function. I can see the point about tutors, but one does not need tutors to be successful.

6. We all have to learn the application process, I don't see this is especially difficult for people who are in the lower SES. Are you arguing that they are less capable?

7. Confidence is again a combination of upbringing and personal achievement. I think the masses have swung to far on the confidence scale. Everyone thinks they are special.

8. Helping your child develop inter-personal skills is a parental function.

9. You don't need to visit schools, and it affords you no special preference when applying to the schools. It's pretty much a vacation.

I am Asian and there are plenty of poor Asian immigrants. My oldest has a classmate - good kid, very polite, very confident, popular among his peers. His parents are blue collar workers, one is a cashier and the other one is a restaurant cook. They don't buy fancy clothes, no fancy hair cuts, old Japanese beater cars, they bought into an affordable corner of the good school pyramid, and send their kid to many of the tutoring workshops that are popular with Asians. That kid was always in the GT program and currently has better grades than mine in the same classes. I don't know if he is going on a college tour, my guess is no, but I wouldn't be surprised if his parents scrimped and saved to make that happen. He is kind, happy, and very hard working, just like his parents. Yet he knows that despite all his efforts and those of his parents, a college admission officer will favor a black student over him because of his race. You telling me this is a more fair state of affairs?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's silly to pretend that only wealthy people use their contacts to help their kids. That is completely not true.

True. Selfish racist whites dream hoarded police and firefighter jobs in big cities for years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:From this interview with the author http://www.elle.com/culture/books/a46121/dream-hoarders-feature/

"I can't emphasize this point strongly enough," he replies, "but I don't think we should treat our own children as social-policy interventions. And poor parents, by the way, if you go to them and say, 'I'm not [paying for tutoring] because I'm egalitarian,' they'd say, 'What the hell is wrong with you?'" He does offer some suggestions to address the imbalance: Match the amount spent on enrichment experiences for your child to assist a needier child; find a family to "adopt," and invest in their children's educations; or follow the lead of the affluent public school that his kids attend—for every dollar the PTA raises, the group gives 50 cents to a low-income DC school.

He is talking out both sides of his mouth. If he is establishing the cause-effect that demonstrates the active suppression of one class by another, the only solution is to combat that suppression. If he further argues that the suppression is systemic, then the combating action must also be systemic - a macro program to "make things right". It's disingenuous to argue for the existence of systemic suppression of one class by another, and then leave it by saying "but lets depend on individual action". Individual action is how we are here in the first place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My take away from this is that there are all of this little social cues and social capital that we all take for granted that ends up keeping poorer people out of certain things.

The article David Brooks wrote resonated with me. I am going through the college selection/application process now with my kid and it actually turns my stomach to think about all of the ways disadvantaged kids are shut out and all of the hurdles that you have to cross. And how we get sidetracked by stuff like affirmative action. Here are some of the challenges I can think of:

-living in a neighborhood with good schools and good guidance counselors and college application support
-being the academic track to take AP classes or the right classes
-Being able to afford multiple AP tests
-Being able to afford multiple ACT/SAT tests
-Having solid academic support or being able to afford tutors or have the social capital to know where to go to get help at low cost
-Understanding the college application process, deadlines, financial aid process
-Having the confidence to even apply for top schools
-Knowing how to connect with admissions officers
-Being able to visit schools

Obviously everyone wants the best for their kid, but I never really thought about how I am contributing and participating in this system that actually leaves others behind. For me this is just one of those conversations that is food-for-thought and has given me a lot to think about. I am also Black so thinking about this is actually torture.

No, it's about priorities. To each of your points:

1. School performance is largely dependent on parental involvement. Which of our surrounding counties has the worst schools? PG. Go take a look at the school threads for the counties, and see what the degree of parental involvement for PG is compared against the other counties. Don't blame the teachers and guidance counselors - they are not substitutes for parenting.

2. Regarding academic track and AP classes: see #1

3. Again a matter of life priorities. The reduced fee for AP test is $53, I refuse to believe that a family cannot find $53 to take the AP test.

4. Life priorities: it's a $57 test, and there are fee waivers available for low income families. The money barrier simply is not there.

5. Academic support is again a family function. I can see the point about tutors, but one does not need tutors to be successful.

6. We all have to learn the application process, I don't see this is especially difficult for people who are in the lower SES. Are you arguing that they are less capable?

7. Confidence is again a combination of upbringing and personal achievement. I think the masses have swung to far on the confidence scale. Everyone thinks they are special.

8. Helping your child develop inter-personal skills is a parental function.

9. You don't need to visit schools, and it affords you no special preference when applying to the schools. It's pretty much a vacation.

I am Asian and there are plenty of poor Asian immigrants. My oldest has a classmate - good kid, very polite, very confident, popular among his peers. His parents are blue collar workers, one is a cashier and the other one is a restaurant cook. They don't buy fancy clothes, no fancy hair cuts, old Japanese beater cars, they bought into an affordable corner of the good school pyramid, and send their kid to many of the tutoring workshops that are popular with Asians. That kid was always in the GT program and currently has better grades than mine in the same classes. I don't know if he is going on a college tour, my guess is no, but I wouldn't be surprised if his parents scrimped and saved to make that happen. He is kind, happy, and very hard working, just like his parents. Yet he knows that despite all his efforts and those of his parents, a college admission officer will favor a black student over him because of his race. You telling me this is a more fair state of affairs?

No it's not a fair state of affairs. What you are overlooking, though, is that calling that family "poor Asian immigrant" doesn't tell the whole story and doesn't put that kid on the same step as a poor black kid. The Asian family, poor though they are, is helped along by the culture that prizes academic achievement and hard work. Don't underestimate the importance of cultural norms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My take away from this is that there are all of this little social cues and social capital that we all take for granted that ends up keeping poorer people out of certain things.

The article David Brooks wrote resonated with me. I am going through the college selection/application process now with my kid and it actually turns my stomach to think about all of the ways disadvantaged kids are shut out and all of the hurdles that you have to cross. And how we get sidetracked by stuff like affirmative action. Here are some of the challenges I can think of:

-living in a neighborhood with good schools and good guidance counselors and college application support
-being the academic track to take AP classes or the right classes
-Being able to afford multiple AP tests
-Being able to afford multiple ACT/SAT tests
-Having solid academic support or being able to afford tutors or have the social capital to know where to go to get help at low cost
-Understanding the college application process, deadlines, financial aid process
-Having the confidence to even apply for top schools
-Knowing how to connect with admissions officers
-Being able to visit schools

Obviously everyone wants the best for their kid, but I never really thought about how I am contributing and participating in this system that actually leaves others behind. For me this is just one of those conversations that is food-for-thought and has given me a lot to think about. I am also Black so thinking about this is actually torture.

No, it's about priorities. To each of your points:

1. School performance is largely dependent on parental involvement. Which of our surrounding counties has the worst schools? PG. Go take a look at the school threads for the counties, and see what the degree of parental involvement for PG is compared against the other counties. Don't blame the teachers and guidance counselors - they are not substitutes for parenting.

2. Regarding academic track and AP classes: see #1

3. Again a matter of life priorities. The reduced fee for AP test is $53, I refuse to believe that a family cannot find $53 to take the AP test.

4. Life priorities: it's a $57 test, and there are fee waivers available for low income families. The money barrier simply is not there.

5. Academic support is again a family function. I can see the point about tutors, but one does not need tutors to be successful.

6. We all have to learn the application process, I don't see this is especially difficult for people who are in the lower SES. Are you arguing that they are less capable?

7. Confidence is again a combination of upbringing and personal achievement. I think the masses have swung to far on the confidence scale. Everyone thinks they are special.

8. Helping your child develop inter-personal skills is a parental function.

9. You don't need to visit schools, and it affords you no special preference when applying to the schools. It's pretty much a vacation.

I am Asian and there are plenty of poor Asian immigrants. My oldest has a classmate - good kid, very polite, very confident, popular among his peers. His parents are blue collar workers, one is a cashier and the other one is a restaurant cook. They don't buy fancy clothes, no fancy hair cuts, old Japanese beater cars, they bought into an affordable corner of the good school pyramid, and send their kid to many of the tutoring workshops that are popular with Asians. That kid was always in the GT program and currently has better grades than mine in the same classes. I don't know if he is going on a college tour, my guess is no, but I wouldn't be surprised if his parents scrimped and saved to make that happen. He is kind, happy, and very hard working, just like his parents. Yet he knows that despite all his efforts and those of his parents, a college admission officer will favor a black student over him because of his race. You telling me this is a more fair state of affairs?

No it's not a fair state of affairs. What you are overlooking, though, is that calling that family "poor Asian immigrant" doesn't tell the whole story and doesn't put that kid on the same step as a poor black kid. The Asian family, poor though they are, is helped along by the culture that prizes academic achievement and hard work. Don't underestimate the importance of cultural norms.

Wow, feels like we will get to the world of Harrison Bergeron soon enough with this type of thinking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From this interview with the author http://www.elle.com/culture/books/a46121/dream-hoarders-feature/

"I can't emphasize this point strongly enough," he replies, "but I don't think we should treat our own children as social-policy interventions. And poor parents, by the way, if you go to them and say, 'I'm not [paying for tutoring] because I'm egalitarian,' they'd say, 'What the hell is wrong with you?'" He does offer some suggestions to address the imbalance: Match the amount spent on enrichment experiences for your child to assist a needier child; find a family to "adopt," and invest in their children's educations; or follow the lead of the affluent public school that his kids attend—for every dollar the PTA raises, the group gives 50 cents to a low-income DC school.

He is talking out both sides of his mouth. If he is establishing the cause-effect that demonstrates the active suppression of one class by another, the only solution is to combat that suppression. If he further argues that the suppression is systemic, then the combating action must also be systemic - a macro program to "make things right". It's disingenuous to argue for the existence of systemic suppression of one class by another, and then leave it by saying "but lets depend on individual action". Individual action is how we are here in the first place.

To clarify, he didn't leave it that way, that's just an excerpt from the middle of the piece. In the context of the interview, that particular quote was in response to the writer wondering about the action she personally should take (such as denying her child a tutor because not everyone can afford it), and the author says absolutely not. I excerpted it in response to the way many people were (understandably) interpreting the online game because the game didn't align with my understanding of the book at all. I think that in an effort to be provocative and spark conversation, the game distracts from the bigger picture and is sending the opposite message of what the author intended. I don't know if it's a case of the author talking out of both sides or a case of content being added by other parties. This is a few paragraphs down in the interview:

Shedding our privilege is, to some extent, a collective-action problem—I'm not giving up my legacy preference if you're not giving up yours!—and requires broad policy change. What we lucky people can and should do, I'd argue, is get foursquare behind legislative reform and embrace the fact that it might require some monetary sacrifice on our part. "The central political challenge here," Reeves writes, "is to persuade the winners that, in many cases, their success is not the result of their own brilliance but the lottery of birth.… Market outcomes can only be considered fair to the extent that each of us gets an equal chance to develop our natural talents."

In other words, I think I'm agreeing with you, PP! And I think the author does, too, and the game is the misleading element here. I say "think" because this is all above my sociopolitical pay grade, but I do think it's important, so I'm trying to process as best I can...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My take away from this is that there are all of this little social cues and social capital that we all take for granted that ends up keeping poorer people out of certain things.

The article David Brooks wrote resonated with me. I am going through the college selection/application process now with my kid and it actually turns my stomach to think about all of the ways disadvantaged kids are shut out and all of the hurdles that you have to cross. And how we get sidetracked by stuff like affirmative action. Here are some of the challenges I can think of:

-living in a neighborhood with good schools and good guidance counselors and college application support
-being the academic track to take AP classes or the right classes
-Being able to afford multiple AP tests
-Being able to afford multiple ACT/SAT tests
-Having solid academic support or being able to afford tutors or have the social capital to know where to go to get help at low cost
-Understanding the college application process, deadlines, financial aid process
-Having the confidence to even apply for top schools
-Knowing how to connect with admissions officers
-Being able to visit schools

Obviously everyone wants the best for their kid, but I never really thought about how I am contributing and participating in this system that actually leaves others behind. For me this is just one of those conversations that is food-for-thought and has given me a lot to think about. I am also Black so thinking about this is actually torture.

No, it's about priorities. To each of your points:

1. School performance is largely dependent on parental involvement. Which of our surrounding counties has the worst schools? PG. Go take a look at the school threads for the counties, and see what the degree of parental involvement for PG is compared against the other counties. Don't blame the teachers and guidance counselors - they are not substitutes for parenting.

2. Regarding academic track and AP classes: see #1

3. Again a matter of life priorities. The reduced fee for AP test is $53, I refuse to believe that a family cannot find $53 to take the AP test.

4. Life priorities: it's a $57 test, and there are fee waivers available for low income families. The money barrier simply is not there.

5. Academic support is again a family function. I can see the point about tutors, but one does not need tutors to be successful.

6. We all have to learn the application process, I don't see this is especially difficult for people who are in the lower SES. Are you arguing that they are less capable?

7. Confidence is again a combination of upbringing and personal achievement. I think the masses have swung to far on the confidence scale. Everyone thinks they are special.

8. Helping your child develop inter-personal skills is a parental function.

9. You don't need to visit schools, and it affords you no special preference when applying to the schools. It's pretty much a vacation.

I am Asian and there are plenty of poor Asian immigrants. My oldest has a classmate - good kid, very polite, very confident, popular among his peers. His parents are blue collar workers, one is a cashier and the other one is a restaurant cook. They don't buy fancy clothes, no fancy hair cuts, old Japanese beater cars, they bought into an affordable corner of the good school pyramid, and send their kid to many of the tutoring workshops that are popular with Asians. That kid was always in the GT program and currently has better grades than mine in the same classes. I don't know if he is going on a college tour, my guess is no, but I wouldn't be surprised if his parents scrimped and saved to make that happen. He is kind, happy, and very hard working, just like his parents. Yet he knows that despite all his efforts and those of his parents, a college admission officer will favor a black student over him because of his race. You telling me this is a more fair state of affairs?

COME ON, you cannot actually be denying the effects of multigenerational, concentrated poverty in poor black communities and claiming it's just a matter of "priorities." This is a shockingly ignorant position to take.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, I have donated to my alma mater when my child was a senior in high school. Yes, I have gotten my children summer jobs through my connections. How differentiated are 20 year olds in skill sets anyway?

No problem with multifamily housing in the neighborhood, other than traffic congestion.

I'd have a problem with multifamily housing in my neighborhood if it affected my quality of life and the value of my house. I mean, if I wanted to live near multifamily residences, I would have bought there to begin with.

So do you think this book is a bit demonizing?

Is it possible that it SHOULD be demonizing. The growing wealth gap in the United States isn't just bad for poor kids. It's bad for the country. We literally cannot continue on this path and expect to have a functioning economy or democracy. So, yeah, perhaps it is demonizing, but perhaps it is time that UMC folks start working toward the common good rather than just the good of their own progeny.

I worked my ass off to make it into the UMC, and I'd like to see the wealthy who can afford to come down a few rungs on the ladder without taking a major hit to their lifestyle go first. It's not that hard a tumble back down the ladder from UMC, and a lot of us aren't here because of generational wealth or some other sort of safety net that prevents socioeconomic class slippage. We are fortunate to be able to make a lot of positive contributions through donations and volunteering, but expecting me to disadvantage my kid deliberately? Nope. I came from the working middle class, and I'm not going back.

I hate people like you. You happily climb ladder rungs while hoping others above you fall down.

My climbing the ladder and what happens to others are not mutually exclusive, actually, but feel free to hate away. You seem to be falling into the trap of the article and the silly online game -- if I do well for myself, that's automatically holding other people back. That's not the case. I got an unusually opportunity for a working-class kid when I was in college, and I showed up and worked harder than those around me (most of whom outclassed me in terms of wealth and socioeconomic status). I got where I am by working hard, earning my degrees (which I paid for myself), and being a easy to work with on all fronts. I've helped my bosses and others higher up the ladder succeed as well -- my bosses succeeding does more to help me than them falling does, actually.

I am not giving up my children's future to sing Kumbayah around the campfire and hope it fixes systemic social problems that are far greater than a handful of people's privilege-guilt. I contribute in a lot of other ways to social justice issues, and if that doesn't meet your approval, I'm afraid I just can't locate any fucks to give.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's silly to pretend that only wealthy people use their contacts to help their kids. That is completely not true.

True. Selfish racist whites dream hoarded police and firefighter jobs in big cities for years.

In some ways, it's because of structural barriers that lower-income and minority groups have to help each other find jobs. We also use contacts to improve our children's life chances. It just looks different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's silly to pretend that only wealthy people use their contacts to help their kids. That is completely not true.

True. Selfish racist whites dream hoarded police and firefighter jobs in big cities for years.

In some ways, it's because of structural barriers that lower-income and minority groups have to help each other find jobs. We also use contacts to improve our children's life chances. It just looks different.

Pretty sure that the blue collar hoarders were generally racists.

[Anonymous]

We really, really need to soak the rich with higher taxes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My take away from this is that there are all of this little social cues and social capital that we all take for granted that ends up keeping poorer people out of certain things.

The article David Brooks wrote resonated with me. I am going through the college selection/application process now with my kid and it actually turns my stomach to think about all of the ways disadvantaged kids are shut out and all of the hurdles that you have to cross. And how we get sidetracked by stuff like affirmative action. Here are some of the challenges I can think of:

-living in a neighborhood with good schools and good guidance counselors and college application support
-being the academic track to take AP classes or the right classes
-Being able to afford multiple AP tests
-Being able to afford multiple ACT/SAT tests
-Having solid academic support or being able to afford tutors or have the social capital to know where to go to get help at low cost
-Understanding the college application process, deadlines, financial aid process
-Having the confidence to even apply for top schools
-Knowing how to connect with admissions officers
-Being able to visit schools

Obviously everyone wants the best for their kid, but I never really thought about how I am contributing and participating in this system that actually leaves others behind. For me this is just one of those conversations that is food-for-thought and has given me a lot to think about. I am also Black so thinking about this is actually torture.

No, it's about priorities. To each of your points:

1. School performance is largely dependent on parental involvement. Which of our surrounding counties has the worst schools? PG. Go take a look at the school threads for the counties, and see what the degree of parental involvement for PG is compared against the other counties. Don't blame the teachers and guidance counselors - they are not substitutes for parenting.

2. Regarding academic track and AP classes: see #1

3. Again a matter of life priorities. The reduced fee for AP test is $53, I refuse to believe that a family cannot find $53 to take the AP test.

4. Life priorities: it's a $57 test, and there are fee waivers available for low income families. The money barrier simply is not there.

5. Academic support is again a family function. I can see the point about tutors, but one does not need tutors to be successful.

6. We all have to learn the application process, I don't see this is especially difficult for people who are in the lower SES. Are you arguing that they are less capable?

7. Confidence is again a combination of upbringing and personal achievement. I think the masses have swung to far on the confidence scale. Everyone thinks they are special.

8. Helping your child develop inter-personal skills is a parental function.

9. You don't need to visit schools, and it affords you no special preference when applying to the schools. It's pretty much a vacation.

I am Asian and there are plenty of poor Asian immigrants. My oldest has a classmate - good kid, very polite, very confident, popular among his peers. His parents are blue collar workers, one is a cashier and the other one is a restaurant cook. They don't buy fancy clothes, no fancy hair cuts, old Japanese beater cars, they bought into an affordable corner of the good school pyramid, and send their kid to many of the tutoring workshops that are popular with Asians. That kid was always in the GT program and currently has better grades than mine in the same classes. I don't know if he is going on a college tour, my guess is no, but I wouldn't be surprised if his parents scrimped and saved to make that happen. He is kind, happy, and very hard working, just like his parents. Yet he knows that despite all his efforts and those of his parents, a college admission officer will favor a black student over him because of his race. You telling me this is a more fair state of affairs?

COME ON, you cannot actually be denying the effects of multigenerational, concentrated poverty in poor black communities and claiming it's just a matter of "priorities." This is a shockingly ignorant position to take.

I don't deny the effects of multi-generational concentrated poverty, but the immediate argument provided by the PP is that many of the education related challenges are external-caused and listed them out. I am simply pointing out that those particular challenges are largely internal and amounts to priorities. If you want to talk about effects of concentrated poverty - lack of good role models outside of the home, dangers of exposure to drugs and gangs, culture of broken families, glorification of get-rich-quick mentality, all of these things are problems that are not exclusive to blacks - hispanics have this problem, and certain Asian slums such as parts of Flushing NY also has the same concerns. Yet somehow we are led to believe that blacks in particular are somehow unable to individually improve their own condition and that therefore a black student's progress must necessarily come at the expense of a non-black student. This mindset is repulsive and repugnant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We really, really need to soak the rich with higher taxes.

Remember, you are rich to somebody.

[Anonymous]

I would absolutely use my contacts to help my child, because there was nobody to help me when I went to college. I did everything pretty much solo and worked multiple low-wage jobs to pay the bills. So if I'm in a position to help her, I absolutely will. That said, if I am in a position to help someone else's kid, I'd do that too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From this interview with the author http://www.elle.com/culture/books/a46121/dream-hoarders-feature/

"I can't emphasize this point strongly enough," he replies, "but I don't think we should treat our own children as social-policy interventions. And poor parents, by the way, if you go to them and say, 'I'm not [paying for tutoring] because I'm egalitarian,' they'd say, 'What the hell is wrong with you?'" He does offer some suggestions to address the imbalance: Match the amount spent on enrichment experiences for your child to assist a needier child; find a family to "adopt," and invest in their children's educations; or follow the lead of the affluent public school that his kids attend—for every dollar the PTA raises, the group gives 50 cents to a low-income DC school.

He is talking out both sides of his mouth. If he is establishing the cause-effect that demonstrates the active suppression of one class by another, the only solution is to combat that suppression. If he further argues that the suppression is systemic, then the combating action must also be systemic - a macro program to "make things right". It's disingenuous to argue for the existence of systemic suppression of one class by another, and then leave it by saying "but lets depend on individual action". Individual action is how we are here in the first place.

Very well said. PP. Agree completely.