How to improve AAP and General Ed Together

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Reading level went down because of the book selection at school? I find that hard to believe.

Were there no challenging books available at home, in the library or at the community library?

I wonder what the principal said about the book selection in the classroom.

[Anonymous]

How is LLIV worse?

There are no issues with transportation. Kids are in their neighborhood school. The number of AAP kids does not overwhelm the school.

I am not the poster you asked, but I've seen this work at 2 different LLIV schools. What often happens is the LLIV class becomes the "smart" class. And when it is the same kids year after year, then absolutely all the kids in the grade know who is Level IV and who is not. Some schools mix for specials, etc. Our school also has math groupings where the kids in all classes change to a math class at their level, but what typically happens is a few kids go into the LLIV class for math.

Also, if there are not enough Level IV kids to have a full class, the rest of the class is principal placed in some fashion. It can get very ugly when some parents are resentful their kid is not in the LLIV class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

How is LLIV worse?

There are no issues with transportation. Kids are in their neighborhood school. The number of AAP kids does not overwhelm the school.

I am not the poster you asked, but I've seen this work at 2 different LLIV schools. What often happens is the LLIV class becomes the "smart" class. And when it is the same kids year after year, then absolutely all the kids in the grade know who is Level IV and who is not. Some schools mix for specials, etc. Our school also has math groupings where the kids in all classes change to a math class at their level, but what typically happens is a few kids go into the LLIV class for math.

Also, if there are not enough Level IV kids to have a full class, the rest of the class is principal placed in some fashion. It can get very ugly when some parents are resentful their kid is not in the LLIV class.

+1. This, this and this. We moved, and I had one kid go LLIV and another do the Center. LLIV was far more toxic. The "smart class" was right there, front and center. It became a huge clique because kids could not be rotated each year. GE parents were pissed-- about who was in AAP, who was principal placed, that the "best" teacher at each grade level was the one who got AAP certified, that their DC's 3 BFFs were in the smart class and DC was left behind in GE, that AAP always seems to develop a clique of mean girls, etc. The school went from a cohesive community to toxic in the three years after LLIV was introduced. The Center on the other hand-- the kids seemed to mix fine. GE was normal. AAP was normal. Rather than a handful of "special kids" there was a better balance.

I don't think all you LLIV advocates realize what you are getting yourselves into.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reading level went down because of the book selection at school? I find that hard to believe.

Were there no challenging books available at home, in the library or at the community library?

I wonder what the principal said about the book selection in the classroom.

In that kid's case there is plenty of challenge at home. The kid's brother is at TJ. Kids could bring books from home and read by themeselves for the entire period. I think the child just became apathetic about reading because there was no incentive to do so. Only the kids with reading issues were routinely engaged with a teacher. The child is at a center this year and reportedly more engaged again.

Walking home the other day, another parent was lamenting a report from her child about having 2 hours of read alone time regularly this year. The parent asked if it was the same in my DC's classroom. I was not aware of such long blocks for that, but now I feel compelled to follow up and investigate this further.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reading level went down because of the book selection at school? I find that hard to believe.

Were there no challenging books available at home, in the library or at the community library?

I wonder what the principal said about the book selection in the classroom.

Principal was supportive of the teacher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Reading level went down because of the book selection at school? I find that hard to believe.

Were there no challenging books available at home, in the library or at the community library?

This question can be the same for parents who say their child 'needs' AAP. Can't they provide more challenging work at home? Can't they pick up books from the library on how to enrich their gifted children?

Parents who have struggling readers with dyslexia often hire private tutors at great costs because the school is not providing what their child needs to succeed. Why can't those parents with gifted kids that need more hire private tutors if GE is not enough?

It's funny what you find hard to believe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reading level went down because of the book selection at school? I find that hard to believe.

Were there no challenging books available at home, in the library or at the community library?

This question can be the same for parents who say their child 'needs' AAP. Can't they provide more challenging work at home? Can't they pick up books from the library on how to enrich their gifted children?

Parents who have struggling readers with dyslexia often hire private tutors at great costs because the school is not providing what their child needs to succeed. Why can't those parents with gifted kids that need more hire private tutors if GE is not enough?

It's funny what you find hard to believe.

What i find hard to believe is "reading level going down" especially for the reason PP gave.

If she had said the kid quit enuoying reading, of got lazy with reading, that is believable.

But reading level "going down" because the kid didn't like the selection of books available in second grade? Absent some LD, that statement is preposterous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How is LLIV worse?

There are no issues with transportation. Kids are in their neighborhood school. The number of AAP kids does not overwhelm the school.

I am not the poster you asked, but I've seen this work at 2 different LLIV schools. What often happens is the LLIV class becomes the "smart" class. And when it is the same kids year after year, then absolutely all the kids in the grade know who is Level IV and who is not. Some schools mix for specials, etc. Our school also has math groupings where the kids in all classes change to a math class at their level, but what typically happens is a few kids go into the LLIV class for math.

Also, if there are not enough Level IV kids to have a full class, the rest of the class is principal placed in some fashion. It can get very ugly when some parents are resentful their kid is not in the LLIV class.

+1. This, this and this. We moved, and I had one kid go LLIV and another do the Center. LLIV was far more toxic. The "smart class" was right there, front and center. It became a huge clique because kids could not be rotated each year. GE parents were pissed-- about who was in AAP, who was principal placed, that the "best" teacher at each grade level was the one who got AAP certified, that their DC's 3 BFFs were in the smart class and DC was left behind in GE, that AAP always seems to develop a clique of mean girls, etc. The school went from a cohesive community to toxic in the three years after LLIV was introduced. The Center on the other hand-- the kids seemed to mix fine. GE was normal. AAP was normal. Rather than a handful of "special kids" there was a better balance.

I don't think all you LLIV advocates realize what you are getting yourselves into.

You sound like you had a child in LLIV a long time ago and from what you describe the center is just like that as well, it's just that you probably had fewer relations with the general ed families.

The new model, which the person from Chesterbrook described, is to have general ed children be able to take classes with AAP children for core subjects if they can handle it. Or to make the AAP program available to them through another teacher. The kids all switch for lunch, specials, homeroom, and in Wolftrap's case through science and social studies as well. So the kids are never just with AAP students on any given day. I know this can work at every LLIV center. Why can't it work then at a center school? Why can't the general ed kids be brought into core classes with the AAP students at center schools if they demonstrate aptitude at a center? Why can't the general ed kids have lunch, specials, and homeroom time with AAP students at a center?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reading level went down because of the book selection at school? I find that hard to believe.

Were there no challenging books available at home, in the library or at the community library?

This question can be the same for parents who say their child 'needs' AAP. Can't they provide more challenging work at home? Can't they pick up books from the library on how to enrich their gifted children?

Parents who have struggling readers with dyslexia often hire private tutors at great costs because the school is not providing what their child needs to succeed. Why can't those parents with gifted kids that need more hire private tutors if GE is not enough?

It's funny what you find hard to believe.

What i find hard to believe is "reading level going down" especially for the reason PP gave.

If she had said the kid quit enuoying reading, of got lazy with reading, that is believable.

But reading level "going down" because the kid didn't like the selection of books available in second grade? Absent some LD, that statement is preposterous.

No it's far from preposterous. It's another example of how there are much lower expectations towards achievement for GE kids. The thinking is, okay you can read these you're at grade level, great. Not okay you can read these, let me see if I can raise your interest onto the next level.

It's the opposite in AAP, teachers there try to see how else they can challenge this child that is coasting along rather easily.

[Anonymous]

You sound like you had a child in LLIV a long time ago

I am 11:37 and I have a child in LLIV right now. We are not at Chesterbrook of Wolftrap. Our school is higher SES, but not Great Falls/McLean level. The school has about 12-15 kids who qualify for Level IV a year year. That leaves about 10 kids to be pupil placed each year.

My older child was at LLIV at one school and the environment became so toxic with a mean girl clique in the Level IV classroom. There was also a problem with some Gen Ed kids hating on the Level IV kids AND some Level IV kids being snotty to Gen Ed kids. We moved to the center and there was actually a lot more mixing at the center. In part because it was a larger school so it was easier to have different groups.

We have since moved in the county and my youngest is at a different LLIV school. It is even smaller, and I think that is worse. The smaller the school, the worse the LLIV politics. At least that has been my observation. I will say this school seems much more on top of the cliques.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How is LLIV worse?

There are no issues with transportation. Kids are in their neighborhood school. The number of AAP kids does not overwhelm the school.

I am not the poster you asked, but I've seen this work at 2 different LLIV schools. What often happens is the LLIV class becomes the "smart" class. And when it is the same kids year after year, then absolutely all the kids in the grade know who is Level IV and who is not. Some schools mix for specials, etc. Our school also has math groupings where the kids in all classes change to a math class at their level, but what typically happens is a few kids go into the LLIV class for math.

Also, if there are not enough Level IV kids to have a full class, the rest of the class is principal placed in some fashion. It can get very ugly when some parents are resentful their kid is not in the LLIV class.

+1. This, this and this. We moved, and I had one kid go LLIV and another do the Center. LLIV was far more toxic. The "smart class" was right there, front and center. It became a huge clique because kids could not be rotated each year. GE parents were pissed-- about who was in AAP, who was principal placed, that the "best" teacher at each grade level was the one who got AAP certified, that their DC's 3 BFFs were in the smart class and DC was left behind in GE, that AAP always seems to develop a clique of mean girls, etc. The school went from a cohesive community to toxic in the three years after LLIV was introduced. The Center on the other hand-- the kids seemed to mix fine. GE was normal. AAP was normal. Rather than a handful of "special kids" there was a better balance.

I don't think all you LLIV advocates realize what you are getting yourselves into.

You sound like you had a child in LLIV a long time ago and from what you describe the center is just like that as well, it's just that you probably had fewer relations with the general ed families.

The new model, which the person from Chesterbrook described, is to have general ed children be able to take classes with AAP children for core subjects if they can handle it. Or to make the AAP program available to them through another teacher. The kids all switch for lunch, specials, homeroom, and in Wolftrap's case through science and social studies as well. So the kids are never just with AAP students on any given day. I know this can work at every LLIV center. Why can't it work then at a center school? Why can't the general ed kids be brought into core classes with the AAP students at center schools if they demonstrate aptitude at a center? Why can't the general ed kids have lunch, specials, and homeroom time with AAP students at a center?

My kids are in AAP in a center school that has 6 classes per grade, 3 are Gen Ed and 3 are AAP. They seem to do it differently each other - I guess they're experimenting with what works, but in previous years, the kids mixed for specials and this year, the AAP kids are switching to go to a Gen Ed teacher and vice-versa for some subjects. I assume the Gen Ed teacher is teaching the AAP curriculum to the AAP kids....

[Anonymous]

I'm the PP about DC's classmate getting a lower DRA. Look, I can only go by what the child's parents told me. I have no reason to doubt the, and they have two older kids with one who got into TJ without AAP. But as another PP pointed out, the issue is with expectations. I've had 2 teachers tell me they have so much work to do pulling up kids at the lower rungs, they do not have bandwidth to do more for those at grade level, and they rely heavily on parents to do more (extensions) with those kids at home. There is no let's see how high these kids can fly. I get it. Teacher performance is based on getting everyone to a certain level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

You sound like you had a child in LLIV a long time ago

I am 11:37 and I have a child in LLIV right now. We are not at Chesterbrook of Wolftrap. Our school is higher SES, but not Great Falls/McLean level. The school has about 12-15 kids who qualify for Level IV a year year. That leaves about 10 kids to be pupil placed each year.

My older child was at LLIV at one school and the environment became so toxic with a mean girl clique in the Level IV classroom. There was also a problem with some Gen Ed kids hating on the Level IV kids AND some Level IV kids being snotty to Gen Ed kids. We moved to the center and there was actually a lot more mixing at the center. In part because it was a larger school so it was easier to have different groups.

We have since moved in the county and my youngest is at a different LLIV school. It is even smaller, and I think that is worse. The smaller the school, the worse the LLIV politics. At least that has been my observation. I will say this school seems much more on top of the cliques.

11:48, and my younger child moved into MS this year. So nope. And exactly like PP, our neighborhood school qualified about 15 kids a year. So you had the kids who "really belonged," the kids "who are just there because their mom is friends with the principal" and everyone else, who is pissed at the first two groups. And maybe if you can get two full classrooms of kids you can mix things up. But those schools are very much the exception. Everywhere else, it is hard to pull together a full AAP class. There aren't enough kids working at AAP level to shift kids around. As it was, we found when we moved to a Center that LLIV had been seriously watered down. And we also came out of an affluent area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How is LLIV worse?

There are no issues with transportation. Kids are in their neighborhood school. The number of AAP kids does not overwhelm the school.

I am not the poster you asked, but I've seen this work at 2 different LLIV schools. What often happens is the LLIV class becomes the "smart" class. And when it is the same kids year after year, then absolutely all the kids in the grade know who is Level IV and who is not. Some schools mix for specials, etc. Our school also has math groupings where the kids in all classes change to a math class at their level, but what typically happens is a few kids go into the LLIV class for math.

Also, if there are not enough Level IV kids to have a full class, the rest of the class is principal placed in some fashion. It can get very ugly when some parents are resentful their kid is not in the LLIV class.

+1. This, this and this. We moved, and I had one kid go LLIV and another do the Center. LLIV was far more toxic. The "smart class" was right there, front and center. It became a huge clique because kids could not be rotated each year. GE parents were pissed-- about who was in AAP, who was principal placed, that the "best" teacher at each grade level was the one who got AAP certified, that their DC's 3 BFFs were in the smart class and DC was left behind in GE, that AAP always seems to develop a clique of mean girls, etc. The school went from a cohesive community to toxic in the three years after LLIV was introduced. The Center on the other hand-- the kids seemed to mix fine. GE was normal. AAP was normal. Rather than a handful of "special kids" there was a better balance.

I don't think all you LLIV advocates realize what you are getting yourselves into.

You sound like you had a child in LLIV a long time ago and from what you describe the center is just like that as well, it's just that you probably had fewer relations with the general ed families.

The new model, which the person from Chesterbrook described, is to have general ed children be able to take classes with AAP children for core subjects if they can handle it. Or to make the AAP program available to them through another teacher. The kids all switch for lunch, specials, homeroom, and in Wolftrap's case through science and social studies as well. So the kids are never just with AAP students on any given day. I know this can work at every LLIV center. Why can't it work then at a center school? Why can't the general ed kids be brought into core classes with the AAP students at center schools if they demonstrate aptitude at a center? Why can't the general ed kids have lunch, specials, and homeroom time with AAP students at a center?

They are at our Center school.

[Anonymous]

I love all The PPs who have experience with one of FCPS's hundred plus ESs, and assume that every other school operates exactly the same. While I agree with PP that FCPS is too diverse for the same thing to work well everywhere, AAP is a great example of their being no best practices. Every single school implements differently-- and the schools really don't seem to learn from each other's mistakes. At this point, there should be some consensus on what works well in Title I vs school with 50% of the kids id'd vs affluent schools with a lot of above average, and a classroom or less of kids who qualify.

So here's where you start. What makes a school or an LLIV program or a Center successful? I think most of us agree part is academic rigor, and part is a less tangible community feeling. Which schools do this well for various populations or school profiles? What do they have in common and how are they making it work?

IMO, a huge part of the problem is that in FCPS, each principal has their own little fiefdom, and some principals just do a bad job at program implementation. And are allowed to get away with it.