How to improve AAP and General Ed Together

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How is LLIV worse?

There are no issues with transportation. Kids are in their neighborhood school. The number of AAP kids does not overwhelm the school.

I am not the poster you asked, but I've seen this work at 2 different LLIV schools. What often happens is the LLIV class becomes the "smart" class. And when it is the same kids year after year, then absolutely all the kids in the grade know who is Level IV and who is not. Some schools mix for specials, etc. Our school also has math groupings where the kids in all classes change to a math class at their level, but what typically happens is a few kids go into the LLIV class for math.

Also, if there are not enough Level IV kids to have a full class, the rest of the class is principal placed in some fashion. It can get very ugly when some parents are resentful their kid is not in the LLIV class.

+1. This, this and this. We moved, and I had one kid go LLIV and another do the Center. LLIV was far more toxic. The "smart class" was right there, front and center. It became a huge clique because kids could not be rotated each year. GE parents were pissed-- about who was in AAP, who was principal placed, that the "best" teacher at each grade level was the one who got AAP certified, that their DC's 3 BFFs were in the smart class and DC was left behind in GE, that AAP always seems to develop a clique of mean girls, etc. The school went from a cohesive community to toxic in the three years after LLIV was introduced. The Center on the other hand-- the kids seemed to mix fine. GE was normal. AAP was normal. Rather than a handful of "special kids" there was a better balance.

I don't think all you LLIV advocates realize what you are getting yourselves into.

My child is in a LLIV class which is 100% level IV children. No principal placements and I don't think anyone in the school even knows that it's an AAP class. It just looks like a regular class from the outside looking in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is very simple to figure out who is AAP in a LLIV.

LLIV is far worse for schools than the center model.

Completely disagree. The whole focus of centers is the fact that there are tons of AAP kids there. They dominate many center schools, making GE kids acutely aware of being in the minority, or feeling somehow not "normal," when nothing could be farther from the truth. AAP should be the exception, not the rule, but centers put the opposite spin on that dynamic.

At least in LLIV schools, there's usually only one class per grade of AAP kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Reading level went down because of the book selection at school? I find that hard to believe.

Were there no challenging books available at home, in the library or at the community library?

Not the PP, but are you being deliberately obtuse? The point is: why should the reading level within a classroom (any classroom) be capped?? Of course there are challenging books available at home or at the library - but the point of sending our children to school is for them to receive an appropriate education there. That includes having ready access to any and all levels of books. Many Gen Ed kids are highly advanced readers and excel at Language Arts. Just because they're in Gen Ed doesn't mean they're not fully capable of doing high level reading.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

How is LLIV worse?

There are no issues with transportation. Kids are in their neighborhood school. The number of AAP kids does not overwhelm the school.

I am not the poster you asked, but I've seen this work at 2 different LLIV schools. What often happens is the LLIV class becomes the "smart" class. And when it is the same kids year after year, then absolutely all the kids in the grade know who is Level IV and who is not. Some schools mix for specials, etc. Our school also has math groupings where the kids in all classes change to a math class at their level, but what typically happens is a few kids go into the LLIV class for math.

Also, if there are not enough Level IV kids to have a full class, the rest of the class is principal placed in some fashion. It can get very ugly when some parents are resentful their kid is not in the LLIV class.

Regarding the bolded, do you somehow think this dynamic is better at a center, where there are [b]multiple AAP classes per grade, year after year? This just compounds the entire issue! Not only do all the kids know who's in the AAP classes, but they also know who's not - and those kids are looked down upon as being "less-than." Of course, certain AAP parents will now chime in saying that's just not true! It must be the parents who are insecure! But the truth is, unless you have a Gen Ed student who has to attend a center, you have absolutely no credibility. Only parents with children in Gen Ed attending a center will know this is true, because their kids are the ones telling them about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reading level went down because of the book selection at school? I find that hard to believe.

Were there no challenging books available at home, in the library or at the community library?

Not the PP, but are you being deliberately obtuse? The point is: why should the reading level within a classroom (any classroom) be capped?? Of course there are challenging books available at home or at the library - but the point of sending our children to school is for them to receive an appropriate education there. That includes having ready access to any and all levels of books. Many Gen Ed kids are highly advanced readers and excel at Language Arts. Just because they're in Gen Ed doesn't mean they're not fully capable of doing high level reading.

Thank you PP. That is exactly what was so gauling about the situation we experienced.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How is LLIV worse?

There are no issues with transportation. Kids are in their neighborhood school. The number of AAP kids does not overwhelm the school.

I am not the poster you asked, but I've seen this work at 2 different LLIV schools. What often happens is the LLIV class becomes the "smart" class. And when it is the same kids year after year, then absolutely all the kids in the grade know who is Level IV and who is not. Some schools mix for specials, etc. Our school also has math groupings where the kids in all classes change to a math class at their level, but what typically happens is a few kids go into the LLIV class for math.

Also, if there are not enough Level IV kids to have a full class, the rest of the class is principal placed in some fashion. It can get very ugly when some parents are resentful their kid is not in the LLIV class.

+1. This, this and this. We moved, and I had one kid go LLIV and another do the Center. LLIV was far more toxic. The "smart class" was right there, front and center. It became a huge clique because kids could not be rotated each year. GE parents were pissed-- about who was in AAP, who was principal placed, that the "best" teacher at each grade level was the one who got AAP certified, that their DC's 3 BFFs were in the smart class and DC was left behind in GE, that AAP always seems to develop a clique of mean girls, etc. The school went from a cohesive community to toxic in the three years after LLIV was introduced. The Center on the other hand-- the kids seemed to mix fine. GE was normal. AAP was normal. Rather than a handful of "special kids" there was a better balance.

I don't think all you LLIV advocates realize what you are getting yourselves into.

Everything in bold describes the dynamic at our center - compounded by about 100. There is no way the center environment is better or healthier for anyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reading level went down because of the book selection at school? I find that hard to believe.

Were there no challenging books available at home, in the library or at the community library?

This question can be the same for parents who say their child 'needs' AAP. Can't they provide more challenging work at home? Can't they pick up books from the library on how to enrich their gifted children?

Parents who have struggling readers with dyslexia often hire private tutors at great costs because the school is not providing what their child needs to succeed. Why can't those parents with gifted kids that need more hire private tutors if GE is not enough?

It's funny what you find hard to believe.

Couldn't agree more. It's interesting how AAP parents (or at least, the arrogant PP, above) see nothing wrong with a Gen Ed classroom having only a certain level of books for its students, even the advanced readers. But her kid somehow "needs" a classroom with more advanced materials. What hypocrisy.

[Anonymous]

For a group of parents who are supposed to be smart, I'm not sure why my question keeps getting derailed by a discussion of LLIV vs. Center. My question was "Why can't the general ed kids have lunch, specials, and homeroom time with AAP students at a center?" I'm specifically asking about center schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
For a group of parents who are supposed to be smart, I'm not sure why my question keeps getting derailed by a discussion of LLIV vs. Center. My question was "Why can't the general ed kids have lunch, specials, and homeroom time with AAP students at a center?" I'm specifically asking about center schools.

I'd like to know too. My kids (in Gen Ed) attend a center. For some bizarre reason, the homerooms are completely segregated - AAP and GE. Lunch is really just paying lip-service to mixing - the Gen Ed kids and the AAP kids might have overlapping lunch times, but they all have to sit at their homeroom tables. There's no actual mingling between the two groups. They do mix in specials, but that's it.

It's ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
For a group of parents who are supposed to be smart, I'm not sure why my question keeps getting derailed by a discussion of LLIV vs. Center. My question was "Why can't the general ed kids have lunch, specials, and homeroom time with AAP students at a center?" I'm specifically asking about center schools.

They had all that stuff together when my daughter was at the center (Sangster) plus activities. And the projects in the hall were the same between AAP and gen ed.

I am sure many other centers do it this way too.

Not every center is run like a McLean center. In fact, I would wager that most are not run that way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
For a group of parents who are supposed to be smart, I'm not sure why my question keeps getting derailed by a discussion of LLIV vs. Center. My question was "Why can't the general ed kids have lunch, specials, and homeroom time with AAP students at a center?" I'm specifically asking about center schools.

I think people are saying they can and do in some Centers. In our school, homeroom teacher also teaches social studies, so that would be segregated. But homeroom is what? 10 minutes. And it isn't practical to AAP endorse all teachers so they can all teach AAP. 3 AAP homerooms and they rotate among teachers for the other subjects. But specials they are grouped by their band/strings group and not AAP/GE. 6th graders can sit wherever they want for lunch and it's a huge privilege. Recess mixes. If your Center doesn't mix, that's on them.

[Anonymous]

I'm the 11:37 poster again. The center my older child switched to did a much better job at mixing kids than the LLIV we were at for 2 years. They had lunch (kids could sit anywhere) and recess together and all specials. Some kids switched in for math.

My point was that some people think making AAP all LLIV is some kind of panacea, but it isn't. LLIV programs often come with their own set of issues, especially smaller schools. Principals have a lot of discretion in how these programs are implemented. If they are poor logistics planners, then those schools will not have a lot of mixing, because that takes a lot of planning and coordination.

[Anonymous]

18:09 This thread is about how to improve AAP. I made it specifically to not hear arguments about current situations. If you have any suggestions on how to fix AAP and general Ed please communicate them. But believe me most of us have heard your issues with lliv before and don't need to rehash them. This is a solutions oriented thread.

[Anonymous]

OK, here are my thoughts.

If a grade level can't support an entire class of LIV kids, there shouldn't be a local LLIV for that grade at a school.

If the number of LIV classes at a center is > than the number of GE classes at a center, split the center.

I think each grade levels at all schools should have open seating for lunch and have recess together.

When practical/feasible with scheduling at a given school, I think that GE kids should be able to push in to LIV classes, whether that is LLIV or a center.

I think most schools mix GE and LIV for specials because those classes are often much larger than one class. At our LLIV school, the LLIV class is spot in half, and and half the class has specials with one GE class and the other half of the class has specials with a different GE class. It gets much harder when they mix in things like strings, band, and chorus.

Personally, I don't think there is anything that special about the specific LIV curriculum. I think the main advantage, as some PP have said, is the cohort of kids who are generally able to move faster.

I think that kids with IEPs, LDs and ESL should get better support in all classrooms (GE and LIV) so that the main classroom teacher is not overwhelmed trying to be all things to all students. (This is one thing I think our LLIV school is amazing at, and the main reason I have kept this kid in LLIV vs the center.)

What I don't know is how some of these things get paid for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OK, here are my thoughts.

If a grade level can't support an entire class of LIV kids, there shouldn't be a local LLIV for that grade at a school.

If the number of LIV classes at a center is > than the number of GE classes at a center, split the center.

I think each grade levels at all schools should have open seating for lunch and have recess together.

When practical/feasible with scheduling at a given school, I think that GE kids should be able to push in to LIV classes, whether that is LLIV or a center.

I think most schools mix GE and LIV for specials because those classes are often much larger than one class. At our LLIV school, the LLIV class is spot in half, and and half the class has specials with one GE class and the other half of the class has specials with a different GE class. It gets much harder when they mix in things like strings, band, and chorus.

Personally, I don't think there is anything that special about the specific LIV curriculum. I think the main advantage, as some PP have said, is the cohort of kids who are generally able to move faster.

I think that kids with IEPs, LDs and ESL should get better support in all classrooms (GE and LIV) so that the main classroom teacher is not overwhelmed trying to be all things to all students. (This is one thing I think our LLIV school is amazing at, and the main reason I have kept this kid in LLIV vs the center.)

What I don't know is how some of these things get paid for.

The problem with open seating for lunch is... have you ever been to an ES for lunch? It's mass chaos, monitored by 2 volunteers or aides, because the teachers have lunch off. That's enough to keep the inmates from overrunning the asylum-- but barely. And not enough to deal with The Who sits where mean girl dramas. The kids are barely mature enough to handle assigned seating. In fact DD's school has been known to use silent lunch when things get out of hand. I don't agree with that-- but having left the cafeteria with post Taylor Swift concert level hearing loss, I see the point. Open seating is a nice idea-- but not all that practical.

A lot of the other ideas are good, though.

I'm an AAP parent and like the school choice. But will say that once a school can field two full AAP classroom, bussing to a Center is kind of pointless. Not many schools meet this standard. But those that do should lose the Center option. Just like the Cooper to Longfellow, Thoreau to Jackson or Kilmer, Irving to LBSS (? Is that where they bus?) and Franklin to Carson bussing is silly. You' ve got your critical mass. Moving on...