Public education: competing interests, philosophical divide

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

What's clear is that there is no DCPS model that includes serving students or families that want something more than the absolute bare minimum. That's really all that DCPS offers.

er, no. You cite the counter evidence in your own post: Deal, a DCPS middle school. True, its test scores are high because of the profile of the students actually sitting in those seats.

But a careful look at the course catalog, teacher expectations/feedback, and extracurricular academic options clearly demonstrate that DCPS can offer "something more than the absolute bare minimum."

Not without the cohort, and DCPS seems determined to fight creating such a cohort.

[Anonymous]

Oh dear!
You mean to tell me that they use worksheets at your competitive-entry school?
And your teachers use lower-level vocabulary and lower-level texts during whole class lessons?

Out the 7+ hours of school, are you aware that this includes recess, lunch, specials, and transitions?
Presumably you would not want those activities to be differentiated.

As for the rest, the bulk of our learning time is either modified for ability level, or, if it is whole class, the texts, vocabulary, and conceptual tasks are at or above grade level with accommodations provided for students who need them, as well as challenge activities for students who need more challenge.

Maybe you're in the wrong building.

No, they don't use worksheets at this private school. But the teachers do indeed use mid-level vocabulary and mid-level text during whole-class instruction, yes. They also have uniformly mid-level expectations as evidenced by the assignments and comments on the same. The curriculum itself is thoughtful and rich and aims straight for the 65th percentile.

I don't know who, exactly, the "our" in "our learning time" is (?), but I call BS on your claim that your entire science and humanities curriculum is presented "above grade level" at all times, every year, in a public school in the District of Columbia. It's not, not even at Janney, which is why our family opted out of DCPS for elementary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Oh dear!
You mean to tell me that they use worksheets at your competitive-entry school?
And your teachers use lower-level vocabulary and lower-level texts during whole class lessons?

Out the 7+ hours of school, are you aware that this includes recess, lunch, specials, and transitions?
Presumably you would not want those activities to be differentiated.

As for the rest, the bulk of our learning time is either modified for ability level, or, if it is whole class, the texts, vocabulary, and conceptual tasks are at or above grade level with accommodations provided for students who need them, as well as challenge activities for students who need more challenge.

Maybe you're in the wrong building.

No, they don't use worksheets at this private school. But the teachers do indeed use mid-level vocabulary and mid-level text during whole-class instruction, yes. They also have uniformly mid-level expectations as evidenced by the assignments and comments on the same. The curriculum itself is thoughtful and rich and aims straight for the 65th percentile.

I don't know who, exactly, the "our" in "our learning time" is (?), but I call BS on your claim that your entire science and humanities curriculum is presented "above grade level" at all times, every year, in a public school in the District of Columbia. It's not, not even at Janney, which is why our family opted out of DCPS for elementary.

You mean you're paying tuition for mid-level vocabulary and mid-level text? That's really a shame.

I said "at or above grade level". And you can call it anything you like. Common Core mandates that we use complex text for close reading and that's what we do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Oh dear!
You mean to tell me that they use worksheets at your competitive-entry school?
And your teachers use lower-level vocabulary and lower-level texts during whole class lessons?

Out the 7+ hours of school, are you aware that this includes recess, lunch, specials, and transitions?
Presumably you would not want those activities to be differentiated.

As for the rest, the bulk of our learning time is either modified for ability level, or, if it is whole class, the texts, vocabulary, and conceptual tasks are at or above grade level with accommodations provided for students who need them, as well as challenge activities for students who need more challenge.

Maybe you're in the wrong building.

No, they don't use worksheets at this private school. But the teachers do indeed use mid-level vocabulary and mid-level text during whole-class instruction, yes. They also have uniformly mid-level expectations as evidenced by the assignments and comments on the same. The curriculum itself is thoughtful and rich and aims straight for the 65th percentile.

I don't know who, exactly, the "our" in "our learning time" is (?), but I call BS on your claim that your entire science and humanities curriculum is presented "above grade level" at all times, every year, in a public school in the District of Columbia. It's not, not even at Janney, which is why our family opted out of DCPS for elementary.

You mean you're paying tuition for mid-level vocabulary and mid-level text? That's really a shame.

I said "at or above grade level". And you can call it anything you like. Common Core mandates that we use complex text for close reading and that's what we do.

Not the PP, but I can't see how her choice is "really a shame." Are you seriously suggesting that she can't find a superior private alternative to DCPS? Because then I think whatever it is you do in your head that like to think is "thinking" is "really a shame."

She wants something better than DCPS (many of us do) and she decided to pay for it, because it is that important to her and her family. Your attitude attempts to be snide and dismissive, but really only sounds ignorant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

WRT no boundaries, sure tons of high SES people would move, but many wouldn't. Either way, all those folks bailing for the suburbs would be replaced by younger families who would suddenly find good housing stock in the city more affordable. I'm not sure anyone would even miss the high SES folks bailing to the suburbs.

We don't know each other obviously on the anonymous internet, but I am nevertheless certain you are young. Young enough to have not lived through the early 70s and been cognizant of what was happening around you WRT public schools.

the first "S" in SES is for socio (economic status). right? so by saying 'high SES,' this means that this group of parent-homebuyers has high educational attainment, high career success, high prestige within their careers, high discipline, high drive, high goal-oriented behavior .... regardless of their take-home pay. (the "E" in SES).

This ^^^ breed of parent-homebuyer, isn't going to rush right in and "replace" the newly destabilized DCPS system, buying right-priced housing that was 1) existing, & just vacated by departed high SES parents or 2) newly built affordable middle-class SFHs. This ^^^breed of parent-homebuyer didn't get where they are today (remember, great pedigree, not "high paycheck") by settling for good enough, so-so, destablized schools and 1+ hour bus commutes for their 4 year olds. That would be an irrational decision, and adults with the high SOCIO status didn't make it to the top by making a series of irrational decisions.

Also? you are way off base on your low estimate about the percentage of high achievers who will decamp to other school districts or private. see, e.g., every. single. US city where bussing occurred

Simple example to demonstrate ...

In this "no-neighborhood schools" paradigm, where every seat becomes a lottery chance, the Janney Family of AU Park enters the mandatory lottery to find out where their son will attend high school. Their lottery results assign their teen to Dunbar, where a whopping 95% of students are not proficient in math http://profiles.dcps.dc.gov/Dunbar+High+School

The Janney Family rationally decides not to send their capable son to a high school where 95% of students can't add 4 numbers together. The Janney Family puts their brick colonial on the market and moves to a different school district in Maryland or Virginia that has assigned schools. (they can't afford private x 3 kids).

Who will purchase their 5-bedroom colonial?

a) a childless gay couple or a couple of empty nesters
b) a moderate income family of non-profit employees who cares deeply about education
c) a high SES couple of lawyers who care deeply about education but, just like the Janney Family, cannot afford $120,000 annual tuition after taxes
d) a single woman with no kids, because she loves living in a 5-bedroom house
e) an investor, who will rent the large home to several unrelated AU students (see, e.g., 1970 to 1998 Washington DC).

What about none of the above: a young family who couldn't afford it at top dollar, but can do so at a 20% discount caused by an increase in supply after the new rules go into effect and Janney Family decides to sell? I think practically speaking current paths and such would be grandfathered in, so I don't think things are as dire for the Janney Family as the picture you paint. Also, over time, wouldn't Dunbar be seen as less of a non-viable option? Dunbar is brand new school with facilities better than many suburban schools (maybe not in Arlington or Bethesda, but in lots of the US).

[Anonymous]

"We do it every day at the elementary level using guided math and guided reading. Online programs, such as i-Ready and Lexia are tailored to the individual learner. Other subjects, such as social studies and science, are taught at grade level. It helps to have a large classroom library with text levels ranging from primary to high school. Reading aloud while students follow along an above-level text is another strategy for challenging high achievers while building vocabulary and background knowledge of students who are below level."

NO, YOU DON'T. Maybe you think you do, or pretend to, but you don't. Trust me, as the parent of a gifted child who, even at one of the highest performing schools in this city, has been bored and unhappy at school for most of the last 5 years, you don't differentiate beyond slightly below and slightly above grade level. That's doable. But differentiating plus or minus 2 grades levels? Not possible. Ask any special ed or gifted ed teacher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"We do it every day at the elementary level using guided math and guided reading. Online programs, such as i-Ready and Lexia are tailored to the individual learner. Other subjects, such as social studies and science, are taught at grade level. It helps to have a large classroom library with text levels ranging from primary to high school. Reading aloud while students follow along an above-level text is another strategy for challenging high achievers while building vocabulary and background knowledge of students who are below level."

NO, YOU DON'T. Maybe you think you do, or pretend to, but you don't. Trust me, as the parent of a gifted child who, even at one of the highest performing schools in this city, has been bored and unhappy at school for most of the last 5 years, you don't differentiate beyond slightly below and slightly above grade level. That's doable. But differentiating plus or minus 2 grades levels? Not possible. Ask any special ed or gifted ed teacher.

At most schools with a high percentage of SES students it's more than one or two grades, at high school we are talking about students reading at a 4th grade level. Sure i-Ready, Read180, LExia and all the other programs can be used but kids still need to be taught the basics and as the PP states this only happens in the core subjects. Soc Studies, Science, and even health require reading skills that is beyond these students reading level. Also, there is only so much you can do with flexible grouping and to be effective class sizes need to remain small with students provided with high levels of other support services - overall this is NOT happening.

[Anonymous]

What about none of the above: a young family who couldn't afford it at top dollar, but can do so at a 20% discount caused by an increase in supply after the new rules go into effect and Janney Family decides to sell? I think practically speaking current paths and such would be grandfathered in, so I don't think things are as dire for the Janney Family as the picture you paint. Also, over time, wouldn't Dunbar be seen as less of a non-viable option? Dunbar is brand new school with facilities better than many suburban schools (maybe not in Arlington or Bethesda, but in lots of the US).

Still not getting it. Young Family with a $850,000 budget will not choose to buy the Janney Family's colonial (discounted from $1,000,000) and the very very real possibility of their kids attending Savoy Elementary in SE DC, River Terrace EC in NE DC, and Ballou HS.

Young Family didn't amass that kind of $850K buying power by being idiots. They have $850K to spend because they are smart and have made strong choices throughout their lives. Thus, they will take their $850,000 and buy a colonial zoned for Kenwood ES -> Walter Johnson. Or someplace in Fairfax.

Is "short commute" important to Young Family? yes it is. But it's not more important than avoiding being assigned to Savoy, River Terrace and Ballou.

and before you say it ... the only reason that there are as many available seats as there are currently are in the charter lottery is that thousands of DCPS kids stay close to their homes and attend their assigned DCPS schools. If you were to suddenly add every DCPS student from Ward 3, much of Ward 4 and select Hill elementary kids into the charter lottery, the already-low odds of scoring a seat at a high performing PCS would sink to abysmal. And people would move when the inevitable result is published.

Grandfather doesn't last forever. It's only a stop-gap for the transition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

WRT no boundaries, sure tons of high SES people would move, but many wouldn't. Either way, all those folks bailing for the suburbs would be replaced by younger families who would suddenly find good housing stock in the city more affordable. I'm not sure anyone would even miss the high SES folks bailing to the suburbs.

We don't know each other obviously on the anonymous internet, but I am nevertheless certain you are young. Young enough to have not lived through the early 70s and been cognizant of what was happening around you WRT public schools.

the first "S" in SES is for socio (economic status). right? so by saying 'high SES,' this means that this group of parent-homebuyers has high educational attainment, high career success, high prestige within their careers, high discipline, high drive, high goal-oriented behavior .... regardless of their take-home pay. (the "E" in SES).

This ^^^ breed of parent-homebuyer, isn't going to rush right in and "replace" the newly destabilized DCPS system, buying right-priced housing that was 1) existing, & just vacated by departed high SES parents or 2) newly built affordable middle-class SFHs. This ^^^breed of parent-homebuyer didn't get where they are today (remember, great pedigree, not "high paycheck") by settling for good enough, so-so, destablized schools and 1+ hour bus commutes for their 4 year olds. That would be an irrational decision, and adults with the high SOCIO status didn't make it to the top by making a series of irrational decisions.

Also? you are way off base on your low estimate about the percentage of high achievers who will decamp to other school districts or private. see, e.g., every. single. US city where bussing occurred

Simple example to demonstrate ...

In this "no-neighborhood schools" paradigm, where every seat becomes a lottery chance, the Janney Family of AU Park enters the mandatory lottery to find out where their son will attend high school. Their lottery results assign their teen to Dunbar, where a whopping 95% of students are not proficient in math http://profiles.dcps.dc.gov/Dunbar+High+School

The Janney Family rationally decides not to send their capable son to a high school where 95% of students can't add 4 numbers together. The Janney Family puts their brick colonial on the market and moves to a different school district in Maryland or Virginia that has assigned schools. (they can't afford private x 3 kids).

Who will purchase their 5-bedroom colonial?

a) a childless gay couple or a couple of empty nesters
b) a moderate income family of non-profit employees who cares deeply about education
c) a high SES couple of lawyers who care deeply about education but, just like the Janney Family, cannot afford $120,000 annual tuition after taxes
d) a single woman with no kids, because she loves living in a 5-bedroom house
e) an investor, who will rent the large home to several unrelated AU students (see, e.g., 1970 to 1998 Washington DC).

What about none of the above: a young family who couldn't afford it at top dollar, but can do so at a 20% discount caused by an increase in supply after the new rules go into effect and Janney Family decides to sell? I think practically speaking current paths and such would be grandfathered in, so I don't think things are as dire for the Janney Family as the picture you paint. Also, over time, wouldn't Dunbar be seen as less of a non-viable option? Dunbar is brand new school with facilities better than many suburban schools (maybe not in Arlington or Bethesda, but in lots of the US).

please tell me you don't have kids or own property in DC ...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

What about none of the above: a young family who couldn't afford it at top dollar, but can do so at a 20% discount caused by an increase in supply after the new rules go into effect and Janney Family decides to sell? I think practically speaking current paths and such would be grandfathered in, so I don't think things are as dire for the Janney Family as the picture you paint. Also, over time, wouldn't Dunbar be seen as less of a non-viable option? Dunbar is brand new school with facilities better than many suburban schools (maybe not in Arlington or Bethesda, but in lots of the US).

Still not getting it. Young Family with a $850,000 budget will not choose to buy the Janney Family's colonial (discounted from $1,000,000) and the very very real possibility of their kids attending Savoy Elementary in SE DC, River Terrace EC in NE DC, and Ballou HS.

Young Family didn't amass that kind of $850K buying power by being idiots. They have $850K to spend because they are smart and have made strong choices throughout their lives. Thus, they will take their $850,000 and buy a colonial zoned for Kenwood ES -> Walter Johnson. Or someplace in Fairfax.

Is "short commute" important to Young Family? yes it is. But it's not more important than avoiding being assigned to Savoy, River Terrace and Ballou.

and before you say it ... the only reason that there are as many available seats as there are currently are in the charter lottery is that thousands of DCPS kids stay close to their homes and attend their assigned DCPS schools. If you were to suddenly add every DCPS student from Ward 3, much of Ward 4 and select Hill elementary kids into the charter lottery, the already-low odds of scoring a seat at a high performing PCS would sink to abysmal. And people would move when the inevitable result is published.

Grandfather doesn't last forever. It's only a stop-gap for the transition.

I take your point about the $850K, but we're speaking hypotheticals so exact numbers are going to be tough to peg. Young families are certainly spending $600-800K to live EOTP without a Deal feeder. Are they idiots? Perhaps you think so, but tough to paint with such a broad brush. Under the "no boundaries" hypothetical, WOTP loses it's premium, but I don't think the world ends. As I said before, I still think your argument against amounts to "that would be bad for high SES WOTP" which I don't disagree with at all; it would be. You're really just proving my point on that. I'm making a larger normative point about education in the district more broadly, ie. the greater good. We can and probably do disagree about that point as well, but I just want to make sure we're not talking past each other.

[Anonymous]

Young families are certainly spending $600-800K to live EOTP without a Deal feeder.

They are, agreed. However the children of the adults who paid $600 - 800K are, at this very moment, ages 3 mos - about 6 years old. Max.

Let's check back in again when those Park View preschoolers are facing 6th grade. For your reference ... Capitol Hill, but without the Latin-Basis option

[Anonymous]

I still think your argument against amounts to "that would be bad for high SES WOTP" which I don't disagree with at all; it would be. You're really just proving my point on that. I'm making a larger normative point about education in the district more broadly, ie. the greater good. We can and probably do disagree about that point as well, but I just want to make sure we're not talking past each other.

I won't disagree. But the specter of taking a bus an hour each way from, say, a bungalow in Brookland to middle school in Ward 8 is going to immediately halt that upward momentum, as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Young families are certainly spending $600-800K to live EOTP without a Deal feeder.

They are, agreed. However the children of the adults who paid $600 - 800K are, at this very moment, ages 3 mos - about 6 years old. Max.

Let's check back in again when those Park View preschoolers are facing 6th grade. For your reference ... Capitol Hill, but without the Latin-Basis option

These families are counting on the fact that they'll be able to make money on their houses if their charters or up and coming schools don't work out and they need to move WOTP or to the suburbs. Or that they will pay the private school tuition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

WRT no boundaries, sure tons of high SES people would move, but many wouldn't. Either way, all those folks bailing for the suburbs would be replaced by younger families who would suddenly find good housing stock in the city more affordable. I'm not sure anyone would even miss the high SES folks bailing to the suburbs.

We don't know each other obviously on the anonymous internet, but I am nevertheless certain you are young. Young enough to have not lived through the early 70s and been cognizant of what was happening around you WRT public schools.

the first "S" in SES is for socio (economic status). right? so by saying 'high SES,' this means that this group of parent-homebuyers has high educational attainment, high career success, high prestige within their careers, high discipline, high drive, high goal-oriented behavior .... regardless of their take-home pay. (the "E" in SES).

This ^^^ breed of parent-homebuyer, isn't going to rush right in and "replace" the newly destabilized DCPS system, buying right-priced housing that was 1) existing, & just vacated by departed high SES parents or 2) newly built affordable middle-class SFHs. This ^^^breed of parent-homebuyer didn't get where they are today (remember, great pedigree, not "high paycheck") by settling for good enough, so-so, destablized schools and 1+ hour bus commutes for their 4 year olds. That would be an irrational decision, and adults with the high SOCIO status didn't make it to the top by making a series of irrational decisions.

Also? you are way off base on your low estimate about the percentage of high achievers who will decamp to other school districts or private. see, e.g., every. single. US city where bussing occurred

Simple example to demonstrate ...

In this "no-neighborhood schools" paradigm, where every seat becomes a lottery chance, the Janney Family of AU Park enters the mandatory lottery to find out where their son will attend high school. Their lottery results assign their teen to Dunbar, where a whopping 95% of students are not proficient in math http://profiles.dcps.dc.gov/Dunbar+High+School

The Janney Family rationally decides not to send their capable son to a high school where 95% of students can't add 4 numbers together. The Janney Family puts their brick colonial on the market and moves to a different school district in Maryland or Virginia that has assigned schools. (they can't afford private x 3 kids).

Who will purchase their 5-bedroom colonial?

a) a childless gay couple or a couple of empty nesters
b) a moderate income family of non-profit employees who cares deeply about education
c) a high SES couple of lawyers who care deeply about education but, just like the Janney Family, cannot afford $120,000 annual tuition after taxes
d) a single woman with no kids, because she loves living in a 5-bedroom house
e) an investor, who will rent the large home to several unrelated AU students (see, e.g., 1970 to 1998 Washington DC).

What about none of the above: a young family who couldn't afford it at top dollar, but can do so at a 20% discount caused by an increase in supply after the new rules go into effect and Janney Family decides to sell? I think practically speaking current paths and such would be grandfathered in, so I don't think things are as dire for the Janney Family as the picture you paint. Also, over time, wouldn't Dunbar be seen as less of a non-viable option? Dunbar is brand new school with facilities better than many suburban schools (maybe not in Arlington or Bethesda, but in lots of the US).

please tell me you don't have kids or own property in DC ...

Why?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Young families are certainly spending $600-800K to live EOTP without a Deal feeder.

They are, agreed. However the children of the adults who paid $600 - 800K are, at this very moment, ages 3 mos - about 6 years old. Max.

Let's check back in again when those Park View preschoolers are facing 6th grade. For your reference ... Capitol Hill, but without the Latin-Basis option

These families are counting on the fact that they'll be able to make money on their houses if their charters or up and coming schools don't work out and they need to move WOTP or to the suburbs. Or that they will pay the private school tuition.

That's not a bad bet. Growth in home prices will likely outpace the growth in home prices WOTP given the development in the Parkview / Petworth area over a 10 year period. Also, in 10 years, many of us will have higher salaries and will be able to afford the mortgage on a Parkview / Petworth home plus private school tuition.